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Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Wellington on 12 December 2020, 08:56:31 PM

Title: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Wellington on 12 December 2020, 08:56:31 PM

A stilly question from a guy never been in the armed forces.

Seen The Longest Day after years again und Band of Brothers for the first time, I noticed a detail. Where as the Germans and Brits use the chin straps of their helmets, the GIs never use them!?

I expect beiing hit by a bullet at the helmet, it would be usfull if the helmet stay on the head to protects the soldier.

After scrolling though some historic pictures, it seems thats correct.

Your opinion? A strange rule of the Us forces? Stupid error in the movies and tv shows?

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 13 December 2020, 04:30:09 AM

When I was in (1988 to 2000) there was a constant push to make sure soldiers wore their chinstrap with various remarks about John Wayne for those caught not wearing it snugly fastened (and with the spare pull tabs taped down.... seeing actors not doing this in tv shows/movies drives my inner NCO crazy). But we were wearing the k-pot (Kevlar “Fritz” helmet) by then.

I recall asking the very same question about steel pots (the older, iconic helmet of WW2 fame) and told two things. Lack of discipline for something that was annoying and that soldiers feared an neck injury from a strapped helmet receiving a blow from small arms fire or explosive force.

A quick google search backed up my hazy memory.

https://www.army.mil/article/221776/the_m1_helmet_the_soldiers_helmet

And from Wiki...

“ soldiers wore the webbing chinstraps unfastened or looped around the back of the helmet and clipped together. This practice arose for two reasons: First, because hand-to-hand combat was anticipated, and an enemy could be expected to attack from behind, reach over the helmet, grab its visor, and pull. If the chinstrap were worn, the head would be snapped back, causing the victim to lose balance, and leave the throat and stomach exposed to a knife thrust. Secondly, many men incorrectly believed that a nearby exploding bomb or artillery shell could cause the chinstrap to break their neck when the helmet was caught in its concussive force, although a replacement buckle, the T1 pressure-release buckle, was manufactured that allowed the chinstrap to release automatically should this occur. In place of the chinstrap, the nape strap inside the liner was counted on to provide sufficient contact to keep the helmet from easily falling off the wearer's head.[22]”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_helmet

My personal experience is that soldiers may have said they were worried about injury but the reality is more likely fashion and avoiding irritation.

Media such as films portrayed the wearing of chinstraps as something for recruits and by the book officers. Headgear in the 40’s and 50’s in particular was commonly worn in a jaunty, tilted to the side of the head or tipped back from the brow manner. My Dad usually wore hats like this.

And whilst I liked wearing a properly secured helmet it was admittedly at times annoyingly uncomfortable.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: cuprum on 13 December 2020, 07:27:20 AM

The stories that a bullet hitting a helmet breaks a soldier's neck is a myth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7Vk-omiwLI

And here is just an interesting study on the effectiveness of the helmet shape in the Second World War.

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/intelligence-report/steel-helmets.html

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Harry Faversham on 13 December 2020, 07:58:22 AM

In every war film I've ever seen, the Yanks spend more time holding their helmets on, than shooting at the Germans!

::)

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Rick F on 13 December 2020, 09:10:14 AM

Trying to run with a helmet that isn't fastened up properly is a nightmare, on the other side of the coin, the most morale sapping thing in the world is fastening a cold, wet chin strap at 4am on a February morning when someone's just whispered "your stag"! lol

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Sir_Theo on 13 December 2020, 09:53:57 AM

Is it in Band of Brothers when one of the characters discusses this? I think they mention the issue with explosions and the possibility of it snapping your neck. It seems from reading online and testimony of veterans that this was a handy excuse and the real reason was that the strap was uncomfortable. That sounds exactly like the sort of thing soldier's would do!

Its an interesting discussion. I've always just thought it said a lot more about the US forces in ww2 compared to others (the British for example) and how preoccupation with grooming standards, drill discipline etc on campaign was different. I always liked a scene from the film Anzio (albeit thats a film from the 60s) where the British troops march through the streets in step, and then the Americans come sauntering after them. I have no idea if that would be realistic or typical. Its fascinating hearing from actual veterans (of which I know there are a few on this forum) and experts (ditto!) On these sorts of things.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Eclaireur on 13 December 2020, 10:01:32 AM

@Wellington - I've seen this urban myth in British accounts also, which may be why you see many pictures of British soldiers with the chinstrap fastened over the front rim of the helmet. I think with the US helmets people sometimes confused the strap across the back of it, which held the liner inside the the steel pot, with the chin strap, though I'm not doubting for a moment that many left the chin strap undone for the reason you put forward.

@Rick.W do you recall the reputation earned by the CG of the 1st Cavalry Division during the 1991 Gulf War? He rigorously enforced the orders for soldiers to wear their helmets, with chin strap, at all times, including when they are heading off to the bathroom. Led to them earning the nickname 1st Kevlar Division  lol   

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Ray Rivers on 13 December 2020, 12:28:01 PM

Mel Gibson stateside, on parade:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.uoVV1DGlGtxoLAdY87D21gHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

Mel Gibson Vietnam, fighting:

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.5Wo5HtDcc3JHNEQmiGGnYgHaDu%26pid%3DApi&f=1)

 ;)

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Wellington on 13 December 2020, 12:43:19 PM

Thanks a lot. So it seems its a motive of pop culture with much more than a grain of truth in it. Actually it seems based on historic facts.

@Sir_Theo
I only remember that a sergeant tells a recruit how to hold his rifle during the jump, to avoid breaking his legs.

From my experience of snow booarding, it a very very stupid idea not using the straps.

 

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 13 December 2020, 12:55:45 PM

Rick F. Spot on mate.

I served in the US Army but I did four months with the Royal Welch Fusiliers whilst serving in the Berlin Brigade. Despite the Berlin Brigade being more strict on uniform appearance than any other unit I served in, whilst in garrison we were less strict than the RWF but more strict when in the field. How this may compare to WW2 is anybody’s guess.

That said, every time I think about my time in the US Army compared to my time in the British Army I think of this clip from the Devil’s Brigade illustrating some differences between the US and Canadian Army....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1awwAgU_t8

I was considered by some of my men to be a bit of a “by the book” martinet... and I wonder how much of that was down to Berlin being my first duty assignment.... but the uniform standards I have seen on so many serving soldiers since I left in 2000, US and UK, infuriates my professional NCO sensibilities.

And yes Wellington not wearing the straps has always felt stupid to me too!

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Harry Faversham on 13 December 2020, 12:58:31 PM

Quote from: Sir_Theo on 13 December 2020, 09:53:57 AM

I have no idea if that would be realistic or typical.

Edinburgh Military Tattoo 2017. The USAAF Band marched off the square with the Highlander's Pipes and Drums behind, impressive. From where we were sat we could see behind the grandstand as the two units made their way back to the Castle, out of the public eye. The Yanks came ambling along first in two's and threes all playing on the their mobile phones, instruments tucked under their arms looking like bread sticks in super market sweep... an absolute shower!
Next came the Highlander's Pipes and Drums in perfect step... a Drill Sergeant's wet dream come true!
Does that answer yer question old bean, as to wot constitutes real Sowjers???!!!

;)

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Wellington on 13 December 2020, 01:12:12 PM

 lol

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 13 December 2020, 01:20:15 PM

I have to clarify, I have made some broad generalizations based on my opinions formed from my experiences. I have served in high speed, low drag units with high standards and absolute shitbird units that were a disgrace. Whilst I value uniform appearance and drill discipline, a soldier or unit can not be judged on those things alone. Nor have I found US or UK troops universally better or worse across the board.

Whilst I personally dislike the cowboy tough guy “this is my safety” attitude I have seen some spit and polish elite troops perform badly in the field or in real crisis situations. Hooah badges alone do not make a great soldier. I recall for example one real shitbird who I constantly caught wearing his BDU cap instead of helmet, including on a firing range, because he thought his Ranger tab meant he was immune to head wounds.

I’ve seen US troops best UK troops in exercises and I have seen it the other way around. I have seen US troops beat UK troops in a bar fight and the other way around. As a security guard in the US I have fought against US soldiers and UK soldiers at various times. As a cop in the UK I have fought against UK soldiers, although admittedly I do not recall ever fighting a US soldier as a UK cop. I have fought Royal Welch Fusiliers, Paras and Royal Marine Commandos. I would not say nationality alone made any difference. Some were good, some were not. Some were highly disciplined, some were not. Stereotypes can be fun but they tend to be lazy fun.

How good is a soldier if they wear a chin strap or march in step? A debate many soldiers, NCO’s and officers have had, continue to have and I am sure will always have.

I‘d like to hear more about what you think constitutes real soldiers though Harry Faversham.

Edit: Eclaireur, sorry mate I forgot to reply. I did not go to the Gulf nor do I recall much of 1st Cav other than bad jokes about a horse never rode and a river never crossed (inter-unit rivalry was fierce when I was in). But that kind of General and that kind of nickname does not surprise me! Helmet, rifle and LBE (load bearing equipment, ie webbing) even to the latrine was something constantly hammered home with me in Berlin.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mistery
Post by: Ray Rivers on 13 December 2020, 03:54:31 PM

Quote from: Harry Faversham on 13 December 2020, 12:58:31 PM

Does that answer yer question old bean, as to wot constitutes real Sowjers???!!!

Well, the UK is a bit different isn't it? They seem to enjoy the pomp and circumstance of marching about.

In my experience, the most decorated folks I have ever seen weren't "Sowjers" they were Corpsman.

 ;)

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: jon_1066 on 13 December 2020, 04:06:45 PM

I understood the idea was that an explosion could break your neck.  That this may well not happen was irrelevant to the soldiers at the time when it was perceived to be so.  The films therefore got the appearance correct.

A helmet in WWII would not prevent penetration by a bullet.  They were to protect against shrapnel.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 13 December 2020, 04:30:42 PM

Fair point Jon_1066.... perception often trumps reality.

As for movies and chinstraps... there is also a bit of the chicken and the egg, considering how many WW2 GI’s may have been influenced by their silver screen heroes in films made during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_films_made_in_wartime

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Harry Faversham on 14 December 2020, 01:18:30 AM

Quote from: Rick W. on 13 December 2020, 01:20:15 PM

I‘d like to hear more about what you think constitutes real soldiers though Harry Faversham.

Discipline and excellent junior leaders for starters.
Rick, you seem to be somewhat prone to bouts of fisticuffs, with the exception of your time as a UK Plod meeting only saintly US Servicemen? This is very interesting as I once saw something very similar. We were in Torbay on holiday, well over 20 years ago. Overnight half the Yank Navy turned up in the bay, escorting the President of the Americans to Normandy for a big D-Day Anniversary. That evening landing craft brought the Yanks on shore leave, their behavior and manners were impeckable, not one incident of drunkenness and no US Servicemen fell foul of Plod. We were very impressed, those lads were a credit to their country and it's uniform.
The next night the RN turned up for a run ashore in the same landing craft thingys. By 8 o'clock Torquay was a warzone, drunken matelots swinging from gaslamps, gutters running with piss and vomit and young lasses groped as their boyfriends were set upon. This drink fueled riot was only terminated by mass reinforcements of Plods from surrounding areas, order was not restored till the early hours of the morning.
Your related experience as a UK copper kind of reminded me of that night.

:o 

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 14 December 2020, 07:48:39 AM

My lack of locking up fighting GI‘s was mostly based on very few of them get to North Wales, compared to the number of RN (big port) and squaddies (thanks to their exchange deployments at Fort Lewis) get to Seattle. I seem to recall only one American criminal I dealt with in my time with NWP but I did not need to use force on him and I do not recall him being military.

Edit: Your experience in Torbay is interesting but I have seen so many instances of rowdy US and UK personnel as well as well behaved US and UK personnel that I can not say one nation’s military is any more or less disciplined than the other.

In other situations I have seen, been involved with and occasionally was a rowdy soldier myself... both in US and UK service. I have hardly been a saint, especially back in the days when I still drank alcohol. I have not drank in a couple of years now, for the curious. Whilst I do not go out of my way to look for a fight, I do not shy away from them either. As a specially trained Taser officer in NWP I was dispatched to more violent calls than the average Bobby.

As for what constitutes real soldiers, discipline and good junior leaders is a fine starting answer but that also applies to good fast food restaurant staff.

Good soldiers need to be able to fight. To kill.

EDIT: Although Ray makes a fair point about corpsmen/medics... so there exceptions to the requirement to fight/kill. I should add when it comes to fighting, I mean accept the possibility of being killed. Lots of excellent soldiers are medics not killing but risking death in the execution of their duties.

It’s a balancing act. You need people that can kill but you need them not to become monsters. This seems to be a reoccurring problem in the US, UK and as recent headlines point out Australian militaries. I tended to favor more strict discipline back in the day compared to my colleagues, being compared to Captain Bligh on more thanked occasion. People seem to forget his leadership got the survivors in his longboat home... but I digress.

I served active duty and National Guard. For a time I was with the National Guard element of the 10th Mountain Division in NY. Despite being a Berlin Brigade trained martinet I had one guy in my squad that I bears mention. He was illiterate. He had trouble speaking in an understandable manner. He was a slob. He day he joined our unit he walked on foot, many miles from a rural region outside Albany, when asked why he wanted to join he said, “I dun herd youse get gud bootz”.  He was a nightmare in garrison. Whilst we never went to combat together there are few people I would have chosen over him to go. He was brilliant in the field. Sharp, never lazy, excellent woodsman skills, brave, a great marksman, not squeamish with butchering animals, no matter the weather or difficulty of the march he kept high morale (cheering folks up around him with his incomprehensible jokes). Granted it was only a training exercise but we had to do a night time (first time I had seen an entire platoon issued NVG’s, must have been 1993) trench cleaning operation with MILES gear. Him and I caused great havoc clearing our section of the trench but I will be the first to admit he did the bulk of the work. The big, sloppy dope was a warmachine. And yet, he was such a good natured, kind hearted guy that I can not see him being the one to shoot civilians or hurt kids.... which is clinically referred to as collateral damage with a wink by too many monsters in uniform.

So was he a good soldier despite having two left feet during parade? I believe he was.

Or the Gulf War combat vet who was one of my most technically proficient soldiers but was a pain in the ass to motivate when it came to what he referred to as peacetime mickeymouse bullshit? He often appeared sloppy and lazy but once motivated (the usual shouting did not work) he was faster and more accurate than most of the platoon (mech infantry at that point 81st Infantry Brigade in Washington State). And unlike most of us had seen combat. He lacked the spit and polish of many of the other US and UK soldiers I served with. Was he a good soldier in your opinion? He was in mine.

But these guys brought something in exchange... they did not just dismiss parade ground discipline and uniform regulations out of laziness. They just were not wired to value those things. One never had it. The other had it but lost it when what he saw in combat changed his view on priorities. I disagreed with him but I listened to his viewpoint and adapted my leadership style to deal with him as part of my unit.

Now all my experiences are my own, from my own perspective. Most of the real violence I have dealt with has been from a policing perspective but everything since my Basic Training in 1988 has been put through a military lens filter... even the policing.

Did WW2 GI’s wear chinstraps as per regulations? Not so much according to photographic evidence as well as Hollywood Films. Why? Laziness? Maybe. Misplaced fear of a mythical battlefield risk? Maybe. Did wearing chinstraps on their helmets or not make them better soldiers? I doubt a chinstrap makes or breaks a soldier. But it is too broad a subject I think to make a real assessment. Helmet graffiti, not shaving, hands in pockets... these might annoy NCO’s but without specific unit context you can not really assess their impact on the unit. Sometimes these things are indicators of rot in a unit, of poor discipline, low morale. But sometimes they are indicators of a certain esprit de corps.

Watching an old Sharpe movie with my missus an officer berates Sharpe for being unhappy with his administrative logistical assignment, Sharpe saying he was a soldier and should be doing real soldiering. Te officer accused Sharpe of just wanting to swan around like a bloody pirate. And that struck a chord. Sometimes soldiers just want to swanaround like bloody Pirates.... the question is, do they deliver as the fictional Sharpe so often does?

As a Yank serving with the British I got tired of British folks going on about how much better they were than Yanks. Serving with the Yanks I got tired of hearing other Yanks go on about how much better they were than the British. I have gotten tired of Marines (US and UK) going on about how much better they are than everyone else. I am even tired of the grunt sense of superiority that I was so vigorously conditioned to believe as an infantryman. I have seen too many individuals defy stereotypes over the years. This is why I support allowing women into infantry and special operations combat roles. Let the merit of the individual decide.

Someone wants to paint miniature GI’s with some historical accuracy... have some wearing chinstraps and some not. There is historical footage and photos to support it. I saw a historical re-enactors webpage discussing the most accurate percentage of by the book buckled  chinstraps to those fastened around the brim and those left dangling loose. Unfortunately I can not seem to find that website again. I seem to recall dangling loose was the same as buckled under the chin but the majority being buckled at the brim.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Harry Faversham on 14 December 2020, 08:29:53 AM

Thanks for that Rick, we've both strayed a tad off topic but your reply has certainly made me have a think about Soldiers, training and discipline. Almost all the lads I knew who served in the Falklands were out of the Army within 12 months of it ending. They couldn't re-adapt to what they'd come to see as 'playing at being Sowjers'. Most made a valiant attempt to drink themselves to death in the years that followed, several succeeded. Bit sad that, innit?

:'(

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Wellington on 14 December 2020, 09:21:41 AM

Very interesting discussion!

Short question whats means "Sowjers"? I didn't find a translation.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Westfalia Chris on 14 December 2020, 09:31:28 AM

Quote from: Wellington on 14 December 2020, 09:21:41 AM

Very interesting discussion!

Short question whats means "Sowjers"? I didn't find a translation.

It's a Harryism, i.e. it's Harry trying to be funny by (mis-)spelling "soldiers" "funetikally".  ;)

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunetikAksent

Also, please keep this hobby-related, chaps.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 14 December 2020, 09:35:16 AM

During my time in, and I served with some Falklands vets, there was definitely an unhealthy alcohol drinking culture that all too easily slipped into deadly alcohol abuse during and after service. I was not a serious drinker until I joined. Whilst I managed my drinking responsibly most of the time I slipped up at times. It is all too easy. Which is why I gave up alcohol altogether... even though I really miss a good bourbon or mead from time to time. That however is as you say off topic. EDIT: My apologies Chris.

Harry will have to explain exactly what he meant but I took it to be a reference to the accent taken by many a salty old British squaddie (Contemporary British slang term for soldier) when saying the word “soldier”. I may have misunderstood him.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: jon_1066 on 14 December 2020, 10:15:11 AM

With "sowjer" think more parade ground sergeant bawling it at the top of his lungs.  Usually lumped with some questioning of the ability of the sowjers he is berating.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 14 December 2020, 03:55:56 PM

Finally found it.

http://90thidpg.us/Research/Original/M1HelmetNormandy/Conclusions.html

Quite interesting because it includes a survey of soldiers in 1944 about their chinstrap usage.

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: jon_1066 on 14 December 2020, 05:33:42 PM

Pretty conclusive for '44. Also pretty conclusive the higher ups weren't bothered as there is a shot of Monty pinning a medal to a GI's chest complete with chin strap behind the helmet. 

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Truscott Trotter on 14 December 2020, 11:24:07 PM

Would be interesting to see other nations figures if they had them particularly Soviet and German

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: Harry Faversham on 15 December 2020, 12:38:41 AM

I once heard Richard Burton read this on the radio..

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

He pronounced the last word as 'Sowjer', it made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

;)

Obligatory hobby related thingy...

(https://www.thewargameswebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/hm_bbpui/118191/05eb4as5avznl23jdir3co5phzcuu3fa.jpg)

 :o

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: cuprum on 15 December 2020, 03:56:23 AM

In the Soviet army, in the same way, helmets were often worn without fastening a belt. Moreover, many officers and soldiers simply threw away their helmet as an unnecessary burden, preferring additional freedom and speed of movement to protection. There was a fashion for not wearing a helmet. And this led to significant unjustified losses. The command tried to take action, but apparently not persistently enough.

(http://sun9-4.userapi.com/y4dQHpKniBhIkrpNhTymQ5tf5HXyt8gg-i5GQw/6WtVqhxPIGw.jpg)

(http://i4.tabor.ru/feed/2017-03-31/11143229/399992_760x500.jpg)

(http://test.waralbum.ru/wp-content/comment-image/113025.jpg)

And so on:

https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B%20%D0%B2%20%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%85&from=tabbar

Title: Re: GIs and chin straps, a unsolved mystery
Post by: cuprum on 15 December 2020, 04:03:39 AM

I read somewhere that in the German army for not wearing a helmet one could get under the sentence of a military tribunal, as for deliberate self-harm.
But I cannot vouch for the veracity of this statement.