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Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: bulldogger2000 on 05 January 2021, 09:49:46 PM

Title: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 05 January 2021, 09:49:46 PM
After years of contemplating painting up hoplite forces, I have finally started.  I am looking to do the Peloponnesian War on a smaller scale (100 per side).
I would like to find an easy, beer and pretzel set of rules.  Any thoughts?
Thanks is advance.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: armchairgeneral on 05 January 2021, 10:31:51 PM
Although written as a Dark Ages/Medieval ruleset, I am planning to use Lion Rampant as an easy to pick up set of rules for about 100 figures a side. A friend has sent me an unofficial supplement Peloponnesian War Rampant although the rules as they stand seem easily adaptable.

There is an Osprey set specifically for Hoplite warfare called Men of Bronze but I haven’t read it or heard how it plays. The author is a LAF member and may well reply to your thread with more details.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 06 January 2021, 03:18:32 AM
Thank you. I will look into both sets that you suggested.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Tonhel on 06 January 2021, 07:19:50 AM
Mortal Gods from Footsore. 100 figures per side is a lot so, you would be playing 1500 point games. I mostly play around 500 - 600 points games and that around 25 - 35 figures per side.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: SteveBurt on 06 January 2021, 10:35:26 AM
 Saga: Age of Hannibal (use the Graeculi board)
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Easy E on 06 January 2021, 03:39:20 PM
I think you have hear the big 3 of smaller scale Hoplite gaming:

1. Men of Bronze
2. Mortal Gods
3. Saga: Age of Hannibal

I am sure you could also make it work with some "bigger" battle rule sets as well such as:

1. L'Arte De Guerre
2. DBA
3. Hail Ceasar
4. Impetus
5. To the Strongest
6. Swordpoint
7. Sword and Spear
8. Warhammer Ancient Battles

However, those are more for "bigger" battles. 

Before I offer feedback on rules, I have a couple of follow-up question for you.

1. Do you want base/model removal?
2. Do you like scale and model agnostic?
3. Do you want model vs. model or Unit vs. Unit skirmish?
4. Do you like cards, custom dice, and similar unique game accessories with your games?
5. What are other games you like? 
6. What (if anything) is played locally?   
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on 06 January 2021, 04:15:01 PM
There's also Hoplomachia, by The Perfect Captain (with a presence on facebook, too):

http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/hoplomachia.html
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 06 January 2021, 06:34:21 PM
In the big scheme of things I would like something along the lines of The Sword and the Flame.  Unit based, individual figures, with figure removal for casualties. Cards for designating turn activation and also a card system that provides for random events are, I believe, make for an entertaining, fun, beer and pretzel, "guys night" gaming experience.


I think you have hear the big 3 of smaller scale Hoplite gaming:

1. Men of Bronze
2. Mortal Gods
3. Saga: Age of Hannibal

I am sure you could also make it work with some "bigger" battle rule sets as well such as:

1. L'Arte De Guerre
2. DBA
3. Hail Ceasar
4. Impetus
5. To the Strongest
6. Swordpoint
7. Sword and Spear
8. Warhammer Ancient Battles

However, those are more for "bigger" battles. 

Before I offer feedback on rules, I have a couple of follow-up question for you.

1. Do you want base/model removal?
2. Do you like scale and model agnostic?
3. Do you want model vs. model or Unit vs. Unit skirmish?
4. Do you like cards, custom dice, and similar unique game accessories with your games?
5. What are other games you like? 
6. What (if anything) is played locally?
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Easy E on 07 January 2021, 01:28:29 AM
Thanks for answering. 

Then I recommend Mortal Gods.  It has more of what you are looking for. 

Even though I wrote Men of Bronze, it doesn't have what you want. :)

To prove it, here is a high level overview of Men of Bronze so you can judge for yourself:

https://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2019/03/review-men-of-bronze-osprey-games.html

 
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Byblos on 07 January 2021, 08:34:17 AM
Hoplomachia from The Perfect Captain is really interesting !
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: scarabminiatures on 07 January 2021, 05:48:01 PM
In the big scheme of things I would like something along the lines of The Sword and the Flame.  Unit based, individual figures, with figure removal for casualties. Cards for designating turn activation and also a card system that provides for random events are, I believe, make for an entertaining, fun, beer and pretzel, "guys night" gaming experience.

Reading this bit, you may want to check out War & Conquest by Scarab Miniatures (written by me, so I have bias  lol ) - one of the requirements was Hoplite warfare (the book cover, theme and many of the internal pictures show Hoplite warfare, its something I am interested in and commissioned our own range of greek and spartan minis for) -

Turn activation is determined by dice roll each turn, winner choosing to go first or second. There are options to roll extra dice to try and influence the result, but the dice can be cruel - this can give much mirth and obviously the whole process makes game flow less predictable, you can decide to be very cautious or just flat out gamble when you make your moves.

As well as a straight fight, there are 'battle objectives' which are secret, (but can be changed if you have the resource) again this can be entertaining and the game lends to social interaction - it was another requirement - we want to enjoy an evenings gaming.

Formations are based as units, with figure removal but you can do a mix of single and multi base models if you wish (I do) - once a formation hits 'half strength' there is an impact on its morale.

finally a 2000 point army (which gives a decent game in around 2 1/2 hours or so, depending on how much chatting you do) can consist of Commander and other useful leaders, 3 x 24 hoplites, 2 x 16 Thracian/hill tribe types and a few units of skirmishers (who cannot 'charge' a proper formation - but can make a glancing attack - usually with mixed results as most skirmishers during this period are not exactly high impact troops  :D )

So that takes you just over 100 models for a force using a 6ft x 4ft table. If you look for the War & Conquest Facebook page you can see some pictures of my Troy game and some other Hoplite action - army lists are free

Sorry the post is a bit long and obviously in the Ancient period there are lots of rule sets and everybody has their own preference but we have always had some splendid hoplite (and Persian) battles with the rules

Probably best to pm me or drop by the pages mentioned above for further questions to avoid taking over the topic.

Not sure if these links works, but it takes you to a staged picture of a game (you don't need the casualty models, they are there for dramatic effect)

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136050627_110765957591779_1173085911794523068_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2oSqpuGfH9IAX_a5pRi&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=9211fb3d0400f3b93c6b44168a832490&oe=601CFA67/url]

This one is of a demo game set during the Pelopannsian (sp) War

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136194087_110765850925123_6386315935300691538_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5qgnxPOB2v8AX-o3r8S&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=82dccb407fa1c759a5483b418d5ab661&oe=601C5115/url]

Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Jjonas on 07 January 2021, 06:07:57 PM
I too feel that WAB and War and Conquest are good for setting up scenarios at that numbers scale- although a usual WAB style Greek force at 2000 pts might have 120-130 miniatures, with less if Spartans and elites are chosen.

Hoplomachia is a very rewarding deep dive in to the period, but the use of greek terminology for everything makes it a great learning experience but more difficult to access. But I would say it the most interesting game focused entirely on hoplites and their wars and not polluted by having to be a ruleset that covers everything from 3000 BC to 1500 BCE.

I find that for quick access and ease of pick up by gamers that Lion Rampant is easy to get into, generic enough to pretend that it is covering ancients as is- also there are magazine variants for ancient scenarios and lists which are easily altered for Greek wars.

This page has references to some of this as a version of LR that incorporates hoplites, phalanxes, and Galatians (Gauls).

https://ancientbattles.com/Galatians/galatian_warriors_AB_01.html

The more detailed lists are in the magazine referenced.

This photo shows an actual game of LR converted to this scenario. Not too much was altered from LR other than adding in stats for an elephant and a few alterations to equipment stats.  The nice thing about LR is the rules are streamlined and by printing out the stats on small cards players will have almost all they need to play and referring to lists is not needed. The limited troop types make memory easier. Just say no to x-bows or long bows!

https://ancientbattles.com/Galatians/Marcia_JJ_Galatians_003.jpg

Addendum: The Men of Bronze is an Osprey variant of the Lion Rampant/Pikemen's Lament series. It is obviously more dedicated to the period and uses similar mechanics. It might be a useful starting point for scenarios and units types. My issue was the activation system isn't as simple as LR, and a few other issues with how the units work- especially cavalry and skirmishers but some of those same issues occur in LR as well.
Even with LR most people in my area play with a house rules that ignores the first failed activation test so that players can have a better time each player turn- it is a system where a bad luck player could in theory not move or shoot at all turn after turn. I've suffered that.

My main issue with the Men in Bronze rules involved a mechanism where units supported each other by being physically moved behind each other, which breaks up my notion of a phalanx battle. Lion Rampant has no such supporting rules so its more streamlined. Again the Men in Bronze does  have troops adjusted for the period, which LR will need to be noodled with more.

Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: armchairgeneral on 07 January 2021, 08:52:49 PM
Just to follow on from Jjonas, I am favouring LR as I don’t have the opportunity to game very often and a most of these games are Bolt Action so hoplite battles will be now and again, therefore I am after rule system that is easy to pick up.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 08 January 2021, 03:05:50 AM
I can't seem to get your links to work.   :(



Reading this bit, you may want to check out War & Conquest by Scarab Miniatures (written by me, so I have bias  lol ) - one of the requirements was Hoplite warfare (the book cover, theme and many of the internal pictures show Hoplite warfare, its something I am interested in and commissioned our own range of greek and spartan minis for) -

Turn activation is determined by dice roll each turn, winner choosing to go first or second. There are options to roll extra dice to try and influence the result, but the dice can be cruel - this can give much mirth and obviously the whole process makes game flow less predictable, you can decide to be very cautious or just flat out gamble when you make your moves.

As well as a straight fight, there are 'battle objectives' which are secret, (but can be changed if you have the resource) again this can be entertaining and the game lends to social interaction - it was another requirement - we want to enjoy an evenings gaming.

Formations are based as units, with figure removal but you can do a mix of single and multi base models if you wish (I do) - once a formation hits 'half strength' there is an impact on its morale.

finally a 2000 point army (which gives a decent game in around 2 1/2 hours or so, depending on how much chatting you do) can consist of Commander and other useful leaders, 3 x 24 hoplites, 2 x 16 Thracian/hill tribe types and a few units of skirmishers (who cannot 'charge' a proper formation - but can make a glancing attack - usually with mixed results as most skirmishers during this period are not exactly high impact troops  :D )

So that takes you just over 100 models for a force using a 6ft x 4ft table. If you look for the War & Conquest Facebook page you can see some pictures of my Troy game and some other Hoplite action - army lists are free

Sorry the post is a bit long and obviously in the Ancient period there are lots of rule sets and everybody has their own preference but we have always had some splendid hoplite (and Persian) battles with the rules

Probably best to pm me or drop by the pages mentioned above for further questions to avoid taking over the topic.

Not sure if these links works, but it takes you to a staged picture of a game (you don't need the casualty models, they are there for dramatic effect)

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136050627_110765957591779_1173085911794523068_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=2oSqpuGfH9IAX_a5pRi&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=9211fb3d0400f3b93c6b44168a832490&oe=601CFA67/url]

This one is of a demo game set during the Pelopannsian (sp) War

[url]https://scontent.flhr3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/136194087_110765850925123_6386315935300691538_o.jpg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=5qgnxPOB2v8AX-o3r8S&_nc_ht=scontent.flhr3-1.fna&oh=82dccb407fa1c759a5483b418d5ab661&oe=601C5115/url]
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: brasidas19004 on 08 January 2021, 04:02:46 AM
Hmmm, this is kinda tough.

On the one hand, Mortal gods strikes me as a BS set of rules, and can be added to most of the suggestions, including Warhammer Ancients [total BS].

Hoplomachia is the most "authentic" set of rules, and it is free.

OTOH, it is not exactly beer and pretzels.  for that I would just play DBA.  Which is well, not free.

I guess it really depends on if you want a game that is really about hoplites as history reveals. If it is all the same to you, then you may as well try One-Hour Wargames, which is pretty cheap and has 30 scenarios.

Hope this is helpful, somehow.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Harry Faversham on 08 January 2021, 05:34:56 AM
If it is all the same to you, then you may as well try One-Hour Wargames, which is pretty cheap and has 30 scenarios.

And delivers the goods perfectly...

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=119374.msg1495958#msg1495958

 ;)
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: Easy E on 08 January 2021, 03:31:28 PM
Hoplomachia is great fun.... but it is almost too deep into the period and minutia for casual play in my book. 
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 08 January 2021, 05:15:07 PM

Hope this is helpful, somehow.

It certainly is....now for the difficult part.  Deciding. 
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions?
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 08 March 2021, 10:15:45 PM
It has been a few weeks(months) since I posted my question about rules.  There are several that I have ruled out as being overly simplistic, too fiddly (casualty rolls/parry rolls/saving throws/and such repetitive actions), eight figures does NOT look like a phalanx, etc.

So the search for rules continues.  But, I painted up figures that I had, purchased more figures (don't we ALL do that?), and I have decided on a Spartan/Allies  VS  Athens/Allies.  At least I have a course to chart.

Here is what I have so far.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: Easy E on 08 March 2021, 10:41:15 PM
Good looking armies! 
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on 09 March 2021, 12:01:21 AM
I think I recognize the Warlord (Immortal) hoplites, but who makes the command figures?
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: bulldogger2000 on 09 March 2021, 02:56:49 AM

I couldn't tell you who makes the command figure with the red crest and the standard behind him.  I have had that figure lying around for about 25 years.  Finally found a reason to paint it.

The bear headed figure is from the company that screwed people over a few years ago, that would scan your head into their system and then use a 3D printer to make various figures.  I got a couple figures back from them, before they snuck off into the night, without producing product for customers who paid them in advance.  So that is my head, on one of their figures.



I think I recognize the Warlord (Immortal) hoplites, but who makes the command figures?
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: Fremitus Borealis on 09 March 2021, 10:59:28 PM
Oh wow, I wondered if the bare headed chap was something like that! Shame about people getting screwed over by them, but that's a cool idea! I've approached something similar with the figure in my avatar, I suppose. Huzzah for green stuff!

Anywho, awesome figures and painting :)
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: wkeyser on 12 March 2021, 09:00:59 AM
Another vote for Hoplomachia. It is rather nuanced, however, it is just not another roll d6 for hits and roll 6d for saves. You can see how much the Perfect Captain put into the period feel of the rules. They also did a small scenario book.

The problem might be finding the rules now as his site has been taken down.

William
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: mmcv on 12 March 2021, 10:12:28 PM
I'd look at To The Strongest. It doesn't have figure removal, but is recommended as being run with a few decks of playing cards, which are used for activation, combat and strategies, it's grid based which cuts out the faff of measuring distances, rules are pretty straightforward.and plays in a reasonably quick time. While it covers the standard "ancients to medieval" period it's got enough character for specific periods (including hoplite unit types and lists) that it might fit your needs well.
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on 14 March 2021, 02:22:26 PM
Another vote for Hoplomachia. It is rather nuanced, however, it is just not another roll d6 for hits and roll 6d for saves. You can see how much the Perfect Captain put into the period feel of the rules. They also did a small scenario book.

The problem might be finding the rules now as his site has been taken down.

William

I believe that the rules are being loaded to a related facebook group...
Title: Re: Hoplite Rule suggestions? Photos added 3/8/2021
Post by: valerio81 on 16 March 2021, 01:05:57 PM
Hoplomachia is the coolest hoplite ruleset out there IMHO. While I would never call them beer e pretzel, it is not as complicated as it seems really.. it's just not very well laid out and edited, but no incredibly complex.

Yes it is available on the Perfect Captain fb group also with scenario book