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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Harry Faversham on 12 January 2021, 08:42:28 AM
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Any chance of an idiot's guide to the advantage/disadvantages of 3D printing? I can't see any, the models look crap with all them funny lines all over 'em...
or is that from using a cheap-tack printer?
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They wavy lines are from plastic filament PLA printers and its ability to lay down a layer, resin printers have no lines, more expensive but have their own problems with handling.
STL are great for buildings not so much for figures or vehicles. You can add products like Mr surfacer or such to fill the lines a little.
Resin in my opinion is where it is at, if you are going to spend the money and are thinking about vehicles .
My two cents
Cheers
Matt
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While I don't own a 3D printer, I've looked into it, and it basically boils down to:
3D Printing is a hobby in its own right. You'll get out what you put in. Sadly I have maybe 4-5 friends who own 3D printers and never use them because parts break, they're too lazy to fix them, etc. A couple other friends own them and really get stuck in.
If you get a cheap printer, don't do much research, and run garbage software, etc...and speed your prints, they'll look like boiled ass. If you buy a decent printer (the market is moving toward liquid resin printers) and take the time to learn what you're doing and sort everything out - the results can be excellent.
I've got some decent prints from Etsy and a friend who owns a nice resin printer and has it properly figured out.
Quality from a decent resin printer is close to say...Bones Black miniatures? The biggest advantage is that there are thousands upon thousands of files out there...meaning you can produce heaps of stuff. It's not super simple and it's definitely not fast....but if you're going to really get into it, I think it can be really solid investment.
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I have a PLA printer. I've never had a huge amount of success with it (more my fault than its) and it's mostly used now for printing custom bases. I still have hopes for small vehicles at some point, but getting things to stick to the print bed has been a problem since day one.
It is useful and I have designed and printed parts for conversion projects. However, I tend to treat it just another tool in the toolbox, so I'm probably not getting the most use out of it :(
Resin printer are much better for figures, but be wary of the fumes. I think things will improve, but you need proper ventilation for them. I only really have my kitchen to work in, so I've never bought one.
It always seems bad form to mention another forum, but the Reaper forum has a very active 3d printing subforum - here (https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/forum/75-tips-and-advice-3-d-printing/) - that is probably worth a visit
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I don’t have a printer myself, but bought from several printing services. The results but also the prices I paid tell me, I won’t need a printer for some time. From all the discussions I followed, it’s clear to me, that it is a time consuming hobby in itself that needs a lot of investment in time, space (resin is toxic, so a nogo for my 2 year old) and skill (putting supports, choosing the right software).
These may not seem much to people wanting such a hobby, but I chose little metal soldiers as my hobby because they don’t need computers and are relaxing.
I bought from several aftermarket sellers (LAF‘s Agis gave some great advice) to buy not-Star Wars stuff, my experience go for someone using resin printing who sells the models cleaned without supports for a decent price. That is for me the cheaper and quicker option.
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Resin for figures and vehicles for me and PLA for Terrain. The better the quality you want the longer it takes. And I mean longer.......... well part of this gaming hobby is watching paint dry 😁
Be prepared to fail is this best advise with printing.
Yes it is a hobby in itself and setting up a resin print is time consuming at best. Files that say “pre supported” well trust them at your peril. If you don’t have the time to spend on printing it is probably best to avoid. However if you have the time to invest in setting up the machines and trying and failing till you get it right, well then it is great.
I have an Ender 3 for Terrain and an Elegoo Mars Pro for resin. Had the ender for a while and the heated bed and a glue stick work for me.
The resin is all about supports, software and a level bed.
It has taken me a while to be at least competent but I now have more terrain than I need and the resin mountain is growing ( as is the pile of fails in the bin).
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While I don't own a 3D printer, I've looked into it, and it basically boils down to:
3D Printing is a hobby in its own right. You'll get out what you put in. Sadly I have maybe 4-5 friends who own 3D printers and never use them because parts break, they're too lazy to fix them, etc. A couple other friends own them and really get stuck in.
I think this really covers it. People are still fudging about with regular printers which can be crap in all sorts of ways even though the technology hasn't changed that much in a decade. 3d printers are new, continually getting better but different, and literally add another dimension. Don't get me wrong you might have a plug and play experience... until something breaks.
I'm still not convinced the current craze for them will actually hold. Casting metal figures at home to a descent standard isn't much harder but people don't do that nearly as much it seems.
On a more general note, there are definetly much much higher quality machines out there, that are only worth it if you are going to be printing masters continually. Chances are a lot more models you've seen over the past few years were manufactured on such machines then you realize.
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Yeah, some of those super-high-end printers are nuts. Some companies, such as Zealot Miniatures, own a couple - and actually outsource a ton of "masters" for people producing metal and resin miniatures. It's part of their business - making masters, essentially. Pretty smart. Though this happens all over the world now in every industry. Heck they 3D print aerospace components using powdered titanium compounds etc...nuts.
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Yep, Eddie at Zealot has some amazing printers. I think I remember him telling me his prints to 8 microns? That was a while ago anyway.
As others have said, you get out of it what you put into it. You definitely need to be tech minded and have patience. I have owned multiple printers. Some absolute crap and others great. Suprisingly the cheapest one I have owned works the best (Ender 3 Pro).
If you are after a high quality finish on your terrain you are probably better of purchasing terrain than using an FDM printer (extruded plastic) resin prints as said come out amazing and you have to look very closely to see any print lines even on your cheap ones like an elgoo mars. But... toxic materials and so on.
I may be biased though as I run a hobby business based around selling files for printers lol
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Until the lockdowns started, I had access to some older pla printers because the library's maker space has a pile of them and help set things up for them. They didn't charge for failed prints, and it only costs for materials used.
They aren't the best for things, layers are more visible with it than newer ones
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I've seen, handled and actually own a few resin 28mm 3D printed figures that could rival ANY metal ones. Obviously can't say anything on their longevity right now but IMHO they are not any more fragile than plastic figures. To be honest, the guy printing these things is quickly becoming a semi- professional with a medium/high end machine.
Also seen and handled some resin printed 1/700th scale ships that were actually way better than their commercial counterparts at a fraction of the price.
Huge advantage IMHO is that you can design (a) -missing- figure(s) in say ZBrush and have it printed the next day.
My 2c.
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Obviously can't say anything on their longevity right now
I'm very curious about this as well, I know that some of the resin prints for 10 years ago now when this method started becoming a thing are like glass these days, hard and prone to shattering.
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UV exposure certainly won't help and resin (normal expoxy) can degrade over time. We had a few repairs/replacements at work over the years from some of the first print jobs that were included in models (around 15 years ago now). The colour had completely changed and some warping had occurred. There was brittleness in some of them but I couldn't tell you which ones.
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From my POV, 3D printing is the future... for just about everything, not just miniatures.
The cool thing about 3D printing is that it is open source with the various research people sharing new data as the encounter it. While we may still be on the steep upward learning process on how to make literally anything via 3D printing, there will come a time (probably not that long from now) when we will get some pretty dramatic breakthroughs. When that happens, the whole industrial manufacturing paradigm will go flying out the window.
Did ya'll know that there is a company that is making rockets to throw stuff into orbit that is manufacturing the entire body of the rocket using 3D printing? I understand even Elon Musk heavily uses 3D printing for his SpaceX project. I think for his engines.
Anyway, I have seen the incredible detail of 3D printed miniatures and have decided to buy some. I will report back later.
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Is it a hobby in its own right?
Yes, just like the PC/home computer was in the late 80s.
Is it not for everyone?
Yes, just as the PC/home computer was in the late 80s.
Is it the future?
Yes, as the PC/home computer was in the late 80s.
For everyone and everything?
No, it is not as the PC/home computer was in the late 80s.
Do you want to play a computer game or do you want to program it?
For the latter, there's a steep learning curve, and even if you secretly hope so, there's probably no return on investment in sight.
Do you want to play a miniature war game or do you want to write it?
For the latter, there's a steep learning curve, and even though you secretly hope so, there's probably no return on the horizon for you.
Do you want to buy a shiny new toy on a whim, or do you want to design/sculpt/kit-bash it?
The latter involves a steep learning curve, and even if you secretly hope to, there's probably no return on investment in sight.
Want to design, sculpt or craft your own toys, from CAD to print?
The learning curve is steep, and even if you secretly hope so, there's probably no return on investment in sight.
But for some it's fun, rewarding and you can add a few new skills to your tool set.
It can be fun and rewarding, but it can also be very frustrating.
Of course, with the right mind set, there is no bad print, but a new project.
Of course, in general you can't be bothered to make something up.
In short:
Filament printing is fiddly.
UV resin printing is messy.
And smelly.
Currently for miniatures, UV resin printing should be prefered, because easier set up, higher resolution and faster printing.
Albeit, that can change in the future.
Allthough I doubt that.
https://www.wargaming3d.com/2021/04/24/a-worrywarts-resin-printing-faqs-part-deux/ (https://www.wargaming3d.com/2021/04/24/a-worrywarts-resin-printing-faqs-part-deux/)
Do you need a 3d printer at home for wargaming?
Depends.
How many miniatures do you need to pile up on your personal 'Mount Shiny Toy' till you die?
Is it cheaper?
I bougth an Anycubic Photon Mono X with washing station and some accessories for roundabout 700€.
Of course I have a well ventilated hobby workshop.
Wouldn't advise to print UV Resin in the kitchen.
Don't know, how much is a 1500 point FoW Army nowadays?
So, about four armies and it's break even.
https://www.wargaming3d.com/2019/01/02/3d-printing-a-1500-point-flames-of-war-army-in-10-days/ (https://www.wargaming3d.com/2019/01/02/3d-printing-a-1500-point-flames-of-war-army-in-10-days/)
The article is three years old, and my printer is an improved model.
I should give it a try, still have those Blitzkrieg Commander rules lying around since 2005.
A lot of people are better off without one, just buying the finished model.
But then again, I love to buy little used rigs from frustrated hobbyists for cheap.
So I'm all for it, everyone needs one.
;D
As an aside, an interesting question maybe the second hand market of 3d printed models in the future.
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I haven't got a 3D printer myself, but use Syborg 3D to fill in the more esoteric gaps in my collections i.e. vehicles that aren't readily available elsewhere.
I game WW2 in 15mm, and there's a distinct shortage of decent "tail" models out there. Plenty of "teeth" (I'm sure that all the model Sturmtigers out there actually have more volume than any one of the nineteen they actually built!) but not so good for transport and support.
Have a look at how I motorised my Poles:
https://www.vislardica.com/blog/2022/1/23/motorising-a-polish-infantry-company (https://www.vislardica.com/blog/2022/1/23/motorising-a-polish-infantry-company)
Including some FIAT 508/518 taczankas:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/1642966766541-OT2YGQU9O8G5S09I802I/amotorisedtaczankaplatoon.JPG?format=1500w)
Yes, you can see lines on the bonnets and the sides but, at 15mm at any rate, that just adds a bit of character and depth to the model. At three foot away as you're playing, you don't notice anyway.
And take a look at these three tankers: one each for Brits, Soviets and USA:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/1583691182904-JPGV26UF0D5DIHOUOGDU/DSCN1123.JPG?format=1500w)
Ready made objectives or battlefield scatter at a fraction of the price. Yes, I can see some lines in the photograph, but not whilst I'm playing and, anyway, as I said above, in 15mm at a normal distance, you can't see them.
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I have an Anycubic Mono resin printer.
It takes some time to learn to use a resin printer but you can do amazing things with it.
I have an article in the current Military Miniature magazine - Printing Your Tanks at Home.
https://militaryminiature.com/product/military-miniature-201-individual-edition/ (https://militaryminiature.com/product/military-miniature-201-individual-edition/)
Here are some of my prints.
The Aliens Vs Humans Kickstarter was very successful and for a US$ 50 pledge, the 1,770 supporters got 150 sets of STL files to make figures, bases, vehicles, and scenery. The aliens and Humans are best printed in Tough Resin. The humans are 38mm tall and consumables cost US$ 0.17 each. The big alien costs US$ 1.25 for consumables.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51695401713_698a5aa241_o.jpg)
This is part of my Build Something entry.
Wooden Crate by HeliconOne is free here. I resized to 20x10x8mm and printed 16 at a time.
These are hollow with 1mm thick walls.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3945435
Sandbags are by TabletopMinis. This set of STL files costs US$1.95. They have 4 different sets. I print these at 90%.
I will use printed sandbags for the bulk but hand make from Milliput for the top layer, damaged ones, corners, joints, etc.
https://www.tabletopminis.com/product/10157_Sand_Bags
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51820332833_7656462314_o.jpg)
The standing buffalo is a scan of a Thai statue. The second file is a scan of a real Taiwanese water buffalo lying down. These Water Buffalo models are very light and work out at about US$ 0.20 each in consumables. The STL files are free on the Thingiverse.
In Apocalypse Now, Kurtz's base is an ancient Cambodian Temple with these statues. The originals are in the Guimet Museum in Paris and STL files are available free. The Temple Lions at 65mm tall and the Naga Statue at 70mm tall. These are hollow and cost US$ 1.05 each in consumables.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51879280809_316f739f9f_o.jpg)
M551 Sheridan tank in 1/50 scale. The files came from the from Bob Mackenzie Vietnam Kickstarter. This model cost US$ 16.04 in consumables.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51151694300_683b3f15fe_o.jpg)
LVTP-5 printed as a single hollow piece at 1/55 scale as that is the biggest that would fit on the Anycubic Photon Mono.
The model weights 216 grams and cost US$ 11.55 in consumables. Richard Marquis (on LAF) made the STL.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51188250004_3d553f3100_o.jpg)
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Nice post, Mick.
Very interesting.
Seems materials are still quite pricey. Perhaps as 3D printing becomes more wide spread, the price will come down.
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Nice post, Mick.
Very interesting.
Seems materials are still quite pricey. Perhaps as 3D printing becomes more wide spread, the price will come down.
I'm not sure this is correct. compared to plastic prices sure, but 3d printing resin has tin beat with the current prices I believe?
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Interesting post .
As you say papsikels has some great minis & his KS are very worth it for what you pay.
Minis should be printed in resin to get the most detail.
You can also print the flat sides of that vehicle in Pla in order to keep prices down & the sloped parts with resin, then assembling it.
Having said that I have seen people printing whole vehicles in Pla with great results but one must learn how to slice & orient them well to get the best results.
Z
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@Ray Rivers
I don't understand why you think 3D resin prints are expensive
In terms of consumables, a 28mm figure costs about US$ 0.12 i.e. 12 cents.
White metal figures are currently about £1.75 each = US$ 2.38 each.
I would assume that at least half of that goes to the caster.
So by that logic, it costs US$ 1.20 to cast a white metal 28mm figure.
Based on normal manufacturing costings, probably 60% is for materials so the white metal in a figure is about 72 US cents = 6 times as much as printer resin.
As soon as 3D printers become reliable, it will cost five times as much to cast a metal figure as to 3D print one (including machine amortisation.)
And there are new 3D printers to be launched in 2022, such as the Hitry Rocket 1 which are 8 times as fast as current printers.
It will soon make business sense to 3D print rather than cast miniatures.
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Hi Mick,
It's not the cost of the mini's I'm referring to. They are dirt cheap in comparison with metals and the detail... good lord!
I was referring to the larger vehicles. I would have thought they would be cheaper.
As an aside...
I see a future where every city has 3D manufacturers that build anything anyone could want to their own personal desires. As only the raw materials will need to be shipped, we will need only a fraction of the amount ships and trucks that we currently use. The future is bright! I won't see it, but it is coming quickly.
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The cost of vehicles depends on the weight and the weight of supports.
STL files from Kickstarters often have a lot of supports which can weigh 50% of the model weight.
With practice, this can be reduced to 25% or less.
It is possible to hollow out models so that the walls are only 1.5 to 1.8mm thick.
That makes a big difference.
This is why the Sheridan (pre-supported Kickstarter file) cost US$ 16.04 in consumables but the much bigger, but hollow, LVT-P5 only cost $11.55.
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I have an FDM printer that is perfect for printing terrain. In fact I had to stop using it because I was printing stuff faster then I could paint it.
There is a learning curve to getting started but it didn't take long to get good consistent prints.
Here is the main advantage for me. I work full time in the USAF and have a family. My hobby time is very limited. That means I have to be pick what I want to spend my hobby time doing. The printer allows me to have terrain elements printing while I'm at work or spending quality time with family and then can spend hobby time painting. Without it I'd have to spend d that time using more traditional building methods which, while fun, are very time consuming.
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i have an older (now) Anycubic Photon S Resin printer. I don't create files myself, I download (or occasionally purchase) the basic STL files. It cost me around £170.
In the last year, I have printed off literally hundreds of 10mm AFV, probably 80 or so 15mm, and maybe 40+ 28mm vehicles. Add in 50 or so 1/144 WW1 aircraft, 30+ 1/300 naval vessels, and I am just starting to explore printing figures. If I had purchased everything I printed, it would be well in excess of £1500 minimum. In that time, I have used maybe 7 litres of resin. So for my approximately £250 - that's not bad. Would I have bought those instead of printing them? Probably not. :)
I don't recognise the costs that people are incurring. I pay around £21 for a litre of resin, the Chitubox program tells me that printing something like a hollowed out 1/56 Jagdpanzer IV cost me about £2.50. Additional costs are alcohol to wash the models, and failed prints (thankfully now rare as I have supports and levelling the plate better sorted out).
At the moment, the limiting factors are time - it still takes a while to print stuff out - I printed off 2 x 1/56 scale Japanese Ha-Go and a crossley armoured car, and the print took nearly eight hours.
Quality of STL is also an issue in some cases. In 1/100 or 1/200 you can get virtually any WW2 AFV free from Thingiverse, and most will be decent quality. Finding decent 1/56 models that aren't just upscaled 1/100 is challenging. Similarly with infantry. Decent quality figures will cost you money, and in many cases the price differential between printing 6mm and 15mm with bought STL files and purchasing actual minis will be not as significant unless you are intending to field armies with large numbers of figures.
The final issue is layering - I usually print at 0.05 layers. In most cases this will give me a very good quality print, but some angles will show artefacts of the printing process in the form of very fine lines. Adjusting the angle of print in the software will often virtually eliminate this, but you have to redo the print. It's a judgement call. So if I was doing a T34 - and knowing I needed a few, it might well be worth it, but for one-offs, I will often accept it being slightly less than perfect.
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Well, I'm now 67 and my eyes are pretty shot. I had cataract surgery on both eyes and found out that I lost 30% of the vision in my left eye.
But if I was 20 or 30 years younger, especially in today's world, I would going full in on 3D printing for my minis.