Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: squeaky on 12 March 2021, 02:23:38 PM
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After a very long layoff from the hobby it's past time to pull the old lead out and finish a number of armies. OBVIOUSLY my multi-base figures are based in a manner that makes no sense to me any longer (if it ever did! 50x50mm - there MUST have been a ruleset I had in mind), and my individually based figures are ALL OVER THE DAMNED PLACE; We're talking 1p coins, 2p coins, 20mm squares, 1" squares, 30mm rounds, and in the case of my Ral Partha dwarves, 16 to 20 mm cast bases!
So which set of rules solves this basing fiasco?
Is KOW and Oathmark the standard these days?
Relieve me of my mental turmoil so I can get back to the important things in life (is that virus thing still happening? Who is this Megan people keep talking about?)
Squeaks
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Kings of War. Get the right size movement tray for the unit and put as many models as you can fit on it. If your playing at a store or venue the formula is half the official number of figures plus 1 is the minimum .
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Dragon Rampant will support all those bases, including the multiples w wound counters, at once in the same game. DR is my go to now days as I find it fun and tactically interesting while the rules are easy for my pre-teen boys to handle.
I do a bit of Oathmark using home made movement trays for my figs on 1" fender washers. All my cav is on 40mm rounds (perfect for LotR and D&D 3.5) so for Oathmark I put 3 models and two markers on a 2x10 tray. It just takes a small amount of fiddling to get the proper frontage in a fight.
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Kings of War is probably the standard for "big battle" rank & flank type games (although in comparison to Warhammer it's actual figure count is pretty small). It is a good game and easy to pick up, although some of the endgame aspects are a bit daft. Picking your scenario with care helps a lot. Like Warhammer it presents you with set army lists that you can tweak.
Another popular option (especially for the "design my own army" fans) is Mayhem. Also a big battle set. Takes a bit more work than KoW to get started but is much more flexible in the long run.
https://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/
Warhammer Fantasy itself still exists in some form or other, Impetus has a free Fantasy battle version and as you said there is Oathmark.
If you want to start with smaller forces the market is awash with options. Good discussion here:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116288.0
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Kings of War is probably the standard for "big battle" rank & flank type games (although in comparison to Warhammer it's actual figure count is pretty small). It is a good game and easy to pick up, although some of the endgame aspects are a bit daft. Picking your scenario with care helps a lot. Like Warhammer it presents you with set army lists that you can tweak.
Another popular option (especially for the "design my own army" fans) is Mayhem. Also a big battle set. Takes a bit more work than KoW to get started but is much more flexible in the long run.
https://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/
Warhammer Fantasy itself still exists in some form or other, Impetus has a free Fantasy battle version and as you said there is Oathmark.
If you want to start with smaller forces the market is awash with options. Good discussion here:
https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=116288.0
Hi Rob, I do own all of those (and a hundred other sets, I never lost my interest in rules, just painting, actually gaming, and forums LOL), and I rate both Impetus and Mayhem quite highly, but neither really developed any traction so far as I can tell, not to the level of KOW and more recently Oathmark. I had high hopes for BIF - I think we both prompted D&P at regular intervals on that.
Squeaks
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Homegrown rules...still a work in progress but I should be able to have up to 1000 figures per side comfortably.
Troops based on 2p’s on movement trays.
:)
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Loving some Oathmark. Great design, a breath of fresh air compared to all the WHFB-knockoffs, and nice smooth ruleset. As long as you can manage reasonably sized movement trays individual base size isn't super important.
I also play SAGA Age of Magic which I'd call a large skirmish game instead. Individual basing, no ranks and flanks. They give all allowe base sizes as a range from minimum size to max size for that unit type.
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There’s also the new Fantastic Battles by Nicholas Wright of Irregular Wars. Like Mayhem I think it’s designed with 15 mm and smaller figures in mind but there’s no reason 28 mm shouldn’t work.
PDF is available from Wargame Vault. I was going to buy a hard copy on Amazon but I’ve got myself locked out of my account.
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Yeah I'd spotted fantastic battles on Amazon. There are a fair number of rules out there, large skirmish to mass battles, and even more ancients conversions and fan projects, but when going down the basing and rebasing route you need to build in a little flexibility.
Akkie, it does not surprise me at all that you have a thousand figure project on the back burner ... Some things have not changed it seems 😘😘
I've also found my copy of sword and spear fantasy which ticked a great many boxes, but not seeing a big player base 😔
Just don't want to start up with a dead duck
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A really good mass-battle game that allows you to use miniature with varied basing altogether is Ganesha Games' Of Armies and Hordes. You have to divide your table into areas to play (there's no measuring), but this is surprisingly easy to do with terrain (or chalk).
It's a really innovative ruleset and great for getting huge numbers of long-neglected miniatures onto the table at once.
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I’m trying to put together forces that can be used for:
Dragon Rampant
Oathmark
Warlords of Erehwon
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I would try Oathmark! Its pretty easy to learn, has very fluid gameplay and you can manage your forces with movement trays.
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We are playing Lord of the Rings games using fan lists for Kings of War and that seems to work well...
Mike
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Homegrown rules...still a work in progress but I should be able to have up to ONE MILLION figures per side comfortably.
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I wonder how the painting’s going...
I’m also wondering whether anyone has any experience with Hostile Realms, the fantasy version of Piquet, which I have just come across while browsing the Caliver Books site. All I know of it is that a pack of sequence cards is used by each player, presumably to randomise the order of play, as well as ‘relic cards’. I am aware that Piquet seems to divide opinion like Marmite, in part because of its asymmetrical mechanics, but I’m wondering whether these might be more palatable in a fantasy setting.
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I use DR with some tweaks for big battles. I am planning to give Mortem et Gloriam Fantasy a try.
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Dragon Rampant and Warmaster Revolution (both using 10mm) ;)
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I use DR with some tweaks for big battles. I am planning to give Mortem et Gloriam Fantasy a try.
Interested to hear what tweaks you've done to make DR better for larger games?
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There’s also the new Fantastic Battles by Nicholas Wright of Irregular Wars. Like Mayhem I think it’s designed with 15 mm and smaller figures in mind but there’s no reason 28 mm shouldn’t work.
PDF is available from Wargame Vault. I was going to buy a hard copy on Amazon but I’ve got myself locked out of my account.
I hear Fantastic Battles by that Irregular Wars Nic chap is the way to go! :D
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Not quite got to the point of actually playing, but Oathmark is a major part of my hobby.
https://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/search/label/Oathmark (https://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/search/label/Oathmark)
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I hear Fantastic Battles by that Irregular Wars Nic chap is the way to go! :D
Well Amazon have my money now so he'd better know what he's about 😁
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I wonder how the painting’s going...
I’m also wondering whether anyone has any experience with Hostile Realms, the fantasy version of Piquet, which I have just come across while browsing the Caliver Books site. All I know of it is that a pack of sequence cards is used by each player, presumably to randomise the order of play, as well as ‘relic cards’. I am aware that Piquet seems to divide opinion like Marmite, in part because of its asymmetrical mechanics, but I’m wondering whether these might be more palatable in a fantasy setting.
I picked these up at a show some years back, and to be honest they seemed pretty damned good, everything was in there you could hope for, a complete set of rules with the flavour and army lists any good fantasy set needs, but as you say, piquet is not everyone's cup of tea.. Particularly if you come from a Warhammer (or in my case fantasy warriors) background were you're more accustomed to the 'nippy little battalion' syndrome. I agree however, surely this battlefield chaos and narrative style would work well for fantasy. I just couldn't commit to learning it at the time.
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Thank you, that’s interesting to know. I’ve seen a discussion on TMP from 10 years ago but there were more comments on the difficulty of ordering from the Piquet website than on gameplay, though I haven’t read everything. I do, however, like card-driven mechanics, and was already intrigued by Field of Battle, from which Hostile Realms appears to draw more than it does from regular Piquet. (I note that some people rate FoB as far better though I am sure that there are many of the opposite view.)
As well as being highly suited to solo play, HR may be a good way into the system as well as offering more scope for tinkering than a historical setting.
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Before lockdown I was playing a lot of Kings of War. I really enjoy the rules.
The morale/damage system is really good, and adds a lot of tension to the game. Every turn a unit takes damage, the player rolls 2d6 and adds the wounds the unit has taken. If it beats the unit's nerve stat, it wavers (like pinning) or is routed. It's fun because a lucky roll can destroy very strong unit, or weak units can hang on for ages!
One of the major attractions to the game is the multibasing. Units are fairly large, so you can have a lot of fun building little dioramas.
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........was already intrigued by Field of Battle, from which Hostile Realms appears to draw more than it does from regular Piquet. (I note that some people rate FoB as far better though I am sure that there are many of the opposite view.).
FoB fixes some things that not everyone thought were problems, hence the resistance. Amongst an overall update and redesign it somewhat flattened the often wild swings of initiative and the active/inactive ratio of the original system.
Pretty much everyone familiar with the system seem to think it an improvement and as a new player it is a great place to start. Unfortunately Piquet is not a cheap system to buy into, especially back when we had to order everything from the States, so some of us still stick to the original.
It is a game for players who can step aside from the micromanagement of their armies, allow fate and fortune to rule the game and actually command an army.
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Thank you for those observations, which serve to confirm the impression I had been forming. FoB and / or HR are now definitely among my wanted rule sets. At the very least it seems clear they offer a radically different experience than at least 90% of the systems most of us are familiar with or have heard about.
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Thank you for those observations, which serve to confirm the impression I had been forming. FoB and / or HR are now definitely among my wanted rule sets. At the very least it seems clear they offer a radically different experience than at least 90% of the systems most of us are familiar with or have heard about.
You can order Piquet products from Lancashire Games in the UK...
Mike
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Another shout for Fantastic Battles, excellent and very playable rules, army lists and campaign system all in one very affordable book.
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I’m also wondering whether anyone has any experience with Hostile Realms, the fantasy version of Piquet, which I have just come across while browsing the Caliver Books site. All I know of it is that a pack of sequence cards is used by each player, presumably to randomise the order of play, as well as ‘relic cards’. I am aware that Piquet seems to divide opinion like Marmite, in part because of its asymmetrical mechanics, but I’m wondering whether these might be more palatable in a fantasy setting.
Some time ago I bought Hostile Realms and decided it wasn't for me. As there was (and probably still is) very little information available about these rules I wrote a review after reading them, here:
http://www.theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=267782
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I much enjoy Warhammer Renaissance, which is a Warhammer Fantasy battle amalgamation of 4th and 5th ed with later versions added in. Really a "greatest hits" sort of thing. Made by fans for other fans.
If you like the old stuff then this is for you. If you detest all things GW, then probably it is not.
I was recently part of making an "herohammer" fanzine, and there's quite a large piece on it in the fanzine: https://herohammer-fanzine.com/ (free of course!)
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Some time ago I bought Hostile Realms and decided it wasn't for me. As there was (and probably still is) very little information available about these rules I wrote a review after reading them, here:
http://www.theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=267782
Thank you for that link. I had searched for reviews of HR but in spite of their scarcity I managed to overlook that one. I’ve now read it and the ensuing discussion, which seem to confirm how polarised opinion is on the Piquet system in its various guises. Fortunately the arguments on both sides are well put and cogently reasoned. Furthermore, as with most of the conflicts we enjoy reading and gaming about, it would be difficult if not impossible to state categorically that either side is ‘wrong’. At some point I'm simply going to have to give it a try. I now think, however, I’m more likely to do this with FoB rather than HR but this is no more definitive than most of my other final decisions.
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I wonder how the painting’s going...
I’m also wondering whether anyone has any experience with Hostile Realms, the fantasy version of Piquet, which I have just come across while browsing the Caliver Books site. All I know of it is that a pack of sequence cards is used by each player, presumably to randomise the order of play, as well as ‘relic cards’. I am aware that Piquet seems to divide opinion like Marmite, in part because of its asymmetrical mechanics, but I’m wondering whether these might be more palatable in a fantasy setting.
FWIW, I think the "problem" is setting agnostic. The mechanism either "works" for you or it doesn't. For me, it doesn't - I prefer the Two Hour Wargames mechanisms. Yet there are other gamers who for whatever their reasons don't care for them. I like that they are written with a design that works solo as well as group gaming. I'm 100% solo so for me that is important. A side benefit is that as the underlying mechanics are based on the same model, it is easy to switch to any other THW rule set covering a very wide range of settings. I think that what is the stumbling point for more than a few gamers is that the rules take away the godlike control you normally have over your minis in other games.
THW has some free rules downloadable free of charge so you can give them a test drive and see if they suit you. The founder and frequent author or co-author of the various rules is a great guy, very supportive of gamers and quick to reply if you email him about questions or suggestions.
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For some reason I was turned off the THW rules by comments I read on a blog I used to frequent, though I can’t remember the argument. I nevertheless bought the western gunfight rules a year or so ago, partly just to test out the system for myself, but, typically, haven’t yet done so.
Solo playability is important to me also - though I own and continue to buy many sets that aren’t readily playable solo - which means I have little excuse not to at least try systems that facilitate solo play. I have no objection to loss of control, and quite like random events, at least to a degree. Some rules I have read vastly overdo this, to my mind, the otherwise impressive Tercios being a case in point.
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Interested to hear what tweaks you've done to make DR better for larger games?
I am still evolving my tweaks. Some of them are below:
Use a lot more points. Often up to 40.
All units occupy the same frontage - I use 12cm.
I use the optional rules about flanks and rear attacks.
Units face the direction they moved in. Units can still move any direction making sure to measure from the part of the base or figure that has to move furthest.
Friendly units can be placed within 1" of each other.
Allow for up to 1 commander for every 6 or part of 6 (this should have a points cost but I haven't yet decided what this should be). A force with 15 units could therefore field 3 commanders as it has 2x 6 units and then 3 further units making a "part of 6".
Commanders can add a number of combat dice to melee depending on their rating and how much risk they want to take. More combat dice added means more risk.
Commanders have a certain number of command points that can be used on units within command range (I am still deciding on what this should be) to mitigate low activation dice rolls and courage rolls. These replenish at the start of each turn.
Command points can also be used to prevent impetuous charges. If successful, the unit can later make a normal move.
I have some basic interpenetration rules for light missile and scouts - still needing some work. This does risk disorder of the unit being interpenetrated.
Being routed through or having a unit pushed back into another unit risks disorder of the unit behind.
That is about it.
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I am playing Fantastic Battles by Nic Wright published by Irregular Wars. It's somewhat whimsical approach belies an excellent system that rewards good tactics and allows army building of any army you can imagine. Its fun easy to pick up and doesnt cost a mint.
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We are playing Lord of the Rings games using fan lists for Kings of War and that seems to work well...
Mike
Mike, where can I find these fan lists please