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Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: kerpob on 10 August 2021, 09:40:51 AM
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I dabble in a bit of the Warhammer 40K spinoff skirmish rules called "Kill Team". These use the standard Warhammer rules (D6 roll to hit then wound then save) with additional bits to help with the fact that there are fewer than 20 models per side (often only 10 or so).
This month GW (Games Workshop) are releasing a totally new set of rules for Kill Team which have a bespoke set of rules which are actually designed for skirmish games in the WH40K universe. They are up for pre-order in about a week I think, with deliveries at the end of the month.
I thought this thread would be useful to discuss these rules and ideas for games with them.
Some information I have found about them (mostly from the youtube Kill Team fan "Glass Half Dead"):
- The rules are not just Warcry (the WHFB skirmish set)
- They use activation points
- Teams are built using a list-pick system - no points
- Opposition dice rolls are used: I roll hits using my weapon's profile, you roll defence using your own profile
- The big release box has rules, 2 teams of minis (Orks and Guardsmen), a lot of terrain: £125
- You can just buy the rules, but I think you also need to buy a supplement for the factions.
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Interesting.
I quite liked Kill Team and built a Tau force from scratch for it. But the 40k players in my group where never that interested in it.
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If you've got the time (about 50 minutes each) there's full review and rules discussion on youtube here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti-3B-BZA_c
Same channel is supposedly doing playthrough vids all week, first of which is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnn9n1rboyE
I can't say I'm impressed with it compared to the many other skirmish game options (including plain old Rogue trader) out there but YMMV. Re; your last point, the Compendium has all the not-Kommando, not-Death Guard army lists and rules, and is effectively mandatory if you want to play the game with other forces. Probably a $50 book, on top of the actual rules, which are likely $50-65 - and that's not factoring in the tactics cards, which look mandatory to me. Not cheap to get into compared to, say, Stargrave's $35.
Also, be very wary about ordering from GW online instead of getting it in a shop. After the Cursed City debacle they've had to resort to posting this "we promise you can get a copy on preorder" update:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/08/09/kill-team-octarius-a-pre-order-promise/
but let me quote from that:
There’s some nuance here… we’ll be shipping them out first come, first served. If you get in late, it might just take longer to get them to you… potentially several months longer – but you WILL get your copy.
So they're telling you right up front that if it sells through you may be waiting months to get the copy you've already paid for. They do this sort of thing to retailers all the time - billing their credit cards for product that doesn't ship for extended periods - but apparently they've decided their direct customers deserve to share the experience as well now.
In short, if you buy, do so in person and don't pre-pay for anything you aren't physically holding or you may regret it.
Oh, and this whole thread probably ought to be moved to the new "Scifi Small Skirmish" child board. Kill Team's very much small skirmish.
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I was actually going to buy my first GW game in decades with Cursed City. But that opportunity slammed shut faster than a broken window.
My grandsons do like their Ork figs tho, so I'll pick up a set off eBay. But hard pass on Kill Team.
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I've had a lot of fun playing the first kill team, so this is a dead cert for me. Preorders are today, so I got a copy of the rule book and compendium (which has the army lists) for £30 each.
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I was actually going to buy my first GW game in decades with Cursed City. But that opportunity slammed shut faster than a broken window.
Cursed City was an absolute debacle, and GW's continued silence on what went wrong is baffling and still earning them quite a bit of ill will.
My grandsons do like their Ork figs tho, so I'll pick up a set off eBay. But hard pass on Kill Team.
They look quite nice, and appear to be using the same general frame style as Necromunda gangs, where you can build at least two "stock" variants off each body even before you start experimenting with arm swaps and the like.
There's a good (albeit quite depressing) ~25 minute review of the Compendium up here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQwjIKPj5SM
Strongly recommend a listen so you can judge what you'll be getting from the book and whether it's for you.
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Does anyone have a side by side comparison between the new Death Korps and the original Forgeworld? I've only seen brief flashes in videos comparing the two, but not actual still photos.
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I found this on Google. I hope it is of some use:
https://i.redd.it/85lsieku8ja71.png
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I really like the new models, also I like the idea of lot of stuff added to the narrative play (something lacking in the original KT) and was trying with the idea of picking up the rules and compendium, but the compendium seems so lacking in anything interesting (and will be undelete as soon as they start rolling out the expansions) I have decided to give this one a pass.
I think if you are committed to the buy in then it seems a fun way of dabbling in the 40k universe
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Does anyone have a side by side comparison between the new Death Korps and the original Forgeworld? I've only seen brief flashes in videos comparing the two, but not actual still photos.
I was wondering myself. I have a feeling this will be a similar case as the comparison between Old Necromunda and new Necromunda, or old Sisters of Battle and new Sisters of Battle. GW has been scale creeping pretty steadily, definitely away from the more slender 28mm FW Imperial Guard.
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Thank you Inso, that's very helpful.
It looks like the new Krieg are around the same height, slightly pudgier, but still well within normal bounds. The new rifles are quite a bit bigger though.
I found this on Google. I hope it is of some use:
https://i.redd.it/85lsieku8ja71.png
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I was wondering myself. I have a feeling this will be a similar case as the comparison between Old Necromunda and new Necromunda, or old Sisters of Battle and new Sisters of Battle. GW has been scale creeping pretty steadily, definitely away from the more slender 28mm FW Imperial Guard.
I got a look at the figs on the sprue at the FLGS yesterday and they looked about in scale with the Necromunda plastics, so a bit smaller and less bulky than most recent 40K releases. Kind of hard to tell for sure unassembled, though, they're sectioned up into a lot of parts without really being all that modular beyond arm/weapon choices and some gear swaps.
The orks looked positively small and weedy to me, to the point where I'm grabbing some of my existing figs and doing a side by side comparison next time I go in. Which might be today, I predictably forgot to buy the glue I actually went in for.
The terrain in the box looks pretty nice and durable (very thick plastic, sensible joins for the most part) although the "oil rig" piece is a disappointment, the detailing of the machinery is very poor and it's an entirely static single-pose build instead of having been designed to let you position the "hammerhead" at various angles, much less making it movable like, say, the doors on a Land raider. Two things struck me about the pieces as a whole:
1) The ork meks, in fine orky mekboy fashion, have leaned into imitating the AdMech by having icons of a divided skull with one artificial eye scattered around, although their skulls are predictably orky rather than human-styled.
2) Wherever the terrain is supposed to be set, the place apparently supports a lumber industry because there's wood-grain planks in the mix alongside all the rusty dented metal bits. Given that most Forge worlds haven't seen a living tree in millennia (outside of some specimens carefully preserved by a Magos Biologos, I suppose) it's either not on one of them or the "portable ecology" produced by ork spores includes some kind of giant fungus sturdy enough to cut down and use for lumber.
I rather like the latter idea - if greenskin spores can produce squigs the size of a T-rex over time giant mushroom farms seem at least as plausible. Also makes the giant obscenely-shaped shrooms from the porn webcomic Alfie really, really funny, since they're planted by that setting's goblins and are as much a hyper-invasive species as 40K orks are.
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There's a good (albeit quite depressing) ~25 minute review of the Compendium up here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQwjIKPj5SM
Strongly recommend a listen so you can judge what you'll be getting from the book and whether it's for you.
I haven't seen a single video of this guy talking posivitely about anything. I've watched some of his video previously, and he can find issues in so many tiny, meaningless stuff it's mind boggling. I wouldn't base any of my decisions on his opinion.
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I watched it the other night and it didn't put me off.
Cant pre-order it at the moment as the Ingleburn warehouse is locked down along with the rest of NSW, Victoria and the ACT. I am still leaning towards getting this as I do like the DKK miniatures and the gameplay sounds interesting. I like the idea of the ongoing narrative campaign.
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I watched it the other night and it didn't put me off.
Cant pre-order it at the moment as the Ingleburn warehouse is locked down along with the rest of NSW, Victoria and the ACT. I am still leaning towards getting this as I do like the DKK miniatures and the gameplay sounds interesting. I like the idea of the ongoing narrative campaign.
GW's community page was claiming their warehouse would be open again just in time for the KT release this weekend, at least as of last night/this morning.
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GW's community page was claiming their warehouse would be open again just in time for the KT release this weekend, at least as of last night/this morning.
They opened at noon on Saturday (AEST). I cracked and put my ore-order in. Decided to hold off on the Compendium pending actually playing the game and still not convinced over it's longevity I imagine most/all of its contents will be superseded as other forces are rolled out over the coming months.
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They opened at noon on Saturday (AEST). I cracked and put my ore-order in. Decided to hold off on the Compendium pending actually playing the game and still not convinced over it's longevity I imagine most/all of its contents will be superseded as other forces are rolled out over the coming months.
Probably a wise decision, the Compendium seems designed to be outdated, much like the little Ravening Hordes for WFB or that little black & white army book in 2nd edition 40K. Difference being about $50. :)
I'm still concerned that the ork minis seem to be sculpted to a much smaller scale than the rest of the range, but still haven't seen them off the sprue next to anything so it's hard to be sure. Some of their specific weapons are definitely rather tiny - the kommando burna bit is maybe 60% of the size as a burna boyz' is, for ex.
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I pre ordered the box and the compendium. It looks like a move in the right direction to me. The old kill team was great in concept, with little teams fighting over a factory or warehouse. But the list munchers and list tweakers got to it like Shadespire, and there was muppetry as standard. A grot leader for okrs, cos he's cheap and can hide, four plasma in a guards squad, kroot hounds moving further than they can charge, etc. The usual GW roll a four, roll a four, you roll a four, roll a four thing is gone too.
I'm excited about it, probably as much as the original Shadespire box.
I am in to my thirteenth kill team though...
Been trying to work out how the old ones translate to the new ones and writing a shopping list. The biggest lump on there so far is two more Harlequins, oooh those diamonds.
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Just checked the GW site and the' exclusive limited edition' metal gauge is still being added to pre-orders automatically. Not sure if this is just a case of added hype for FOMO or a case of there being a lot fewer pre-orders than anticipted. Could be both.
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It arrived the other week and, to be honest, looks pretty good. Reading the rules makes me think there is actually a decent game system here. I may have gotten my hopes up but the miniatures are nice, the terrain okay, the rules seem to offer interesting skirmish gaming and the price tag is completely ridiculous but that's GW for you.
Anyway, I am inspired to paint up the Space Polius from Wargames Atlantic I received for participating in WSS Great Wargames Survey a few years ago in test colour scheme for the DKK guys (who look great on the sprue).
Current verdict - optimistic
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They were doing a test play/demo at the FLGS last Monday that I briefly watched, albeit not using the figs from the box since they had the Compendium available- Grey Knights versus some other Marines instead. Consensus among the players and watchers was that the entire "name the shape" measuring system is one of the most pointless pieces of nonsense ever and was promptly thrown out in favor of a tape measure. Also that the melee system has some sort of quirk that gives a huge advantage to whoever the attacker/person with initiative is, but I missed part of the chat on that and am not sure about specifics. Did seem to be a game-killing flaw for the majority of folks involved, and even the store owner (who was running the Marines) didn't seem very happy with it.
I remain pessimistic about the game itself, although most of the terrain does look nice. Withholding judgement on the box figs until I see them assembled and painted by someone that isn't GW, and in person. Those orks still look kind of small to me on the sprue.
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Thank you Inso, that's very helpful.
It looks like the new Krieg are around the same height, slightly pudgier, but still well within normal bounds. The new rifles are quite a bit bigger though.
Here are my actual models
(https://scontent-waw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/241263512_10159420450158236_3155968896955902898_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=rpEw0jplrIQAX-vt2Mj&_nc_ht=scontent-waw1-1.xx&oh=d1428db81bf46750d00b8c3f517c077b&oe=61586AB2)
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I take it the painted ones are the older Forge World figs? The new KT ones don't look even close to the same scale to me, like comparing a true 25mm to so-called heroic 28mm.
Don't suppose you've got a plastic Cadian handy for a comparison shot with one of the KT figs?
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I was on holiday last week so wandered into the big city (only second time since March 2020, for some reason). I had planned to buy the first issue of the new part-work, but ended up impluse buying Kill Team o_o
I already wanted the Orks, but the scenery looks pretty nice and I think it will work with the Mantic Killzone stuff I have. Not too crazy on the human soldiers, but hopefully they'll convert into something more to my taste.
I avoided the compendium up-sell, and I'm not sure he was too happy when I mentioned I'd probably never play the game (we were both masked, so it was difficult to tell). I know this is GW, but is the game usable as a more generic SF skirmish game, or is it very firmly wedged in 40K?
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I know this is GW, but is the game usable as a more generic SF skirmish game, or is it very firmly wedged in 40K?
You could hypothetically use the game engine for non-40K-setting gaming but the amount of work you'd need to do to create entirely new stat cards for everything alien top the setting seems enormous. Also the ranges versus movement distances have the same "melee against supertech shooting weapons is perfectly feasible" issue that GW scifi has always had. Be easier and more rewarding to adapt Necromunda, I'd think.
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Thanks. I figured it was a long shot, but always worth asking. I bought it for the figures and scenery, so the rules aren't a big problem. Skirmish SF is very popular at the moment, so plenty of rules to explore :D
The guy in the shop did say that he thought the plan was to release a new starter version every few months with different factions and scenery. If nothing else, it should prevent the game disappearing too quickly.
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Thanks. I figured it was a long shot, but always worth asking. I bought it for the figures and scenery, so the rules aren't a big problem. Skirmish SF is very popular at the moment, so plenty of rules to explore :D
Well, you might try playing it a bit before you give up on it. If it isn't obvious, I'm a little negatively biased about the game and YMMV. maybe it's easier to craft your own stat cards than I think, or maybe someone else out there will do fan ports of stuff from other settings.
The guy in the shop did say that he thought the plan was to release a new starter version every few months with different factions and scenery. If nothing else, it should prevent the game disappearing too quickly.
GW posted an extensive (if somewhat vague) schedule of planned releases on their community page a while back, which probably indicates they intend to support it fairly heavily for some time to come. OTOH, a cynic might suggest that after the absolute debacle around Cursed City's botched release (it was supposed to have a bunch of supplements as well, although they didn't give us a real schedule there) they had to do something to convince people KT wouldn't be another flash in the pan.
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Wow, the weapons especially are oversized. Look at the lasgun in the hand of the trooper on the left, versus the second trooper from the left.
I take it the painted ones are the older Forge World figs? The new KT ones don't look even close to the same scale to me, like comparing a true 25mm to so-called heroic 28mm.
Don't suppose you've got a plastic Cadian handy for a comparison shot with one of the KT figs?
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Wow, the weapons especially are oversized. Look at the lasgun in the hand of the trooper on the left, versus the second trooper from the left.
What's really weird is that many of the ork weapons seem undersized to me compared to existing sculpts. The burna is tiny compared to the ones the actual burna boyz lug around, and the big shoota the kommando "sniper" is using looks smaller than any of the other examples of them - albeit not quite as much so as the burna.
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They were doing a test play/demo at the FLGS last Monday that I briefly watched, albeit not using the figs from the box since they had the Compendium available- Grey Knights versus some other Marines instead. Consensus among the players and watchers was that the entire "name the shape" measuring system is one of the most pointless pieces of nonsense ever and was promptly thrown out in favor of a tape measure. Also that the melee system has some sort of quirk that gives a huge advantage to whoever the attacker/person with initiative is, but I missed part of the chat on that and am not sure about specifics. Did seem to be a game-killing flaw for the majority of folks involved, and even the store owner (who was running the Marines) didn't seem very happy with it.
I remain pessimistic about the game itself, although most of the terrain does look nice. Withholding judgement on the box figs until I see them assembled and painted by someone that isn't GW, and in person. Those orks still look kind of small to me on the sprue.
That's a big musket on the new box guy compared to his Forge World predecessor. Not a huge worry for me as i don't have any FW stuff, but I can see it would be disappointing to try to use the two side by side and have half your crew look like they were issued weapons from the cadet locker.
From my reading (only) the melee system lets the player choose how to use one of his successes to either try to hit or parry and remove an opponent's successful dice. Reading it makes it reasonable with a little more choice in the way will fight adopting either a defensive or offensive stance. Clever use of this by an opponent would, I imagine, be frustrating especially if, say they have initiative and have three successes to your one. They could parry with their first die- removing your only success - and then have two unopposed strikes. Again, have to see how that pans out in play rather than in theory. The lack of enthusiasm from players giving ti a go is a bit of a worry.
The Ork Kommandos are a bit small, but I'd imagine that can be reconciled with having smaller guys lined up for missions where some form of stealth is required.
Current verdict - still hopeful, but trending pensive
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I got the set a couple of weeks ago and I like the figures very much. These new Ork Kommandos are much better than the existing figures, which I actually just got in December and just finished painting a few weeks before this came out.
I've played or run 5 games now and am coming to terms with the basic rules. I've not done the campaign stuff at all yet, just basic games with a fresh Kill Team on each side using the models in the box.
(https://preview.redd.it/0fba8vu0jpl71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7dc83789e8f3c5c027cbe7f1008f4a53cb23c6a1)
The game is a HUGE improvement over the last edition, which I thought was total crap. This is actually a skirmish game and allows you a lot of options for the use of cover with models. The rules for overwatch are a bit simplistic and don't really seem to cover what I would want for that but do fit in pretty well with how a game in the 40K universe should play, i.e. you want guys to be able to get into close combat vs. a more realistic setting where guys moving across open ground in view of other guys with guns should basically just be dead.
The scenarios that I've looked at so far are pretty interesting and well thought out for the intention of the game. I've read the campaign rules and they look interesting, much more like WarCry than Necromunda. Like if WarCry was 1 on a scale and Necromunda was 10 these would be about a 3.
(https://preview.redd.it/gmsau5h1jpl71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=3d27b972a19e3023e34f529d181e4b91c13b5bba)
Likely these will never be my go-to GW game, but the models are nice and the activation system is a lot better than previous versions. I like that Marines get more actions than other models and that Custodes get more actions than them. It will make the marines really stand out as the superior soldiers they are meant to be.
I'm hoping that the inevitable power creep that will be coming with new supplements doesn't over ride that.
It would be neat if they did a "fluff" version where a Kill Team was one marine as a special thing.
The first game we played we used all the models as the basic troops of each side. So they were all guardsmen with rifles or Ork Kommandos with sluggas.
The Orks crushed them. When we played with specialists in the next game though the opposite happened and the guard specialists really were a match for the Orks and then some.
By the third game it seemed to balance out a bit and was just a matter of getting used to things.
(https://preview.redd.it/21ohx3w1jpl71.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f4c052fec904dc849b5d276324fe463884de99b3)
Everything is painted now and if the Orks are released as a separate box I'll probably get more of those for my Ork army. I'll probably get another box of the guard too just to be able to build all of the options and get the four more guys you are allowed to include as a tactical option.
While I think it is a fun system and a huge improvement over the last Kill Team it is still not as good a game as Infinity in terms of being a skirmish sci-fi game.
I'd like to get a few more games in and then try the campaign system. We start our Necromunda League tomorrow but I'm going to see if one of my mates is up for playing a game this weekend.
Here are the Kriegers:
(https://preview.redd.it/h6jspy5bd6l71.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=05a02e81443a8465e89d936148fc8b360f23f871)
(https://preview.redd.it/18ovqacbd6l71.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=6a4ee22a6fe3101dfd610ead573e843f4ed95b97)
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Very nice write-up thanks.
Encouraging to hear there is a decent game in there.
Your DKK guys look terrific, nice and battleworn.
Current mood: Hopeful
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Nothing to do with the games but every time I see this topic I think "Kill Team Octopus"... :-)
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The only bad thing about the game is the shapes for measurements. I have no idea why anyone thought that was a good idea. It makes everything about the game so much harder from reading the rules to doing the measurements.
You're sitting there in the game trying to subtract a circle from a square and then add a triangle.
What is wrong with numbers? I've used numbers my whole life, like 40 some years now numbers have been how I've done stuff.
I helped my dad re-roof his pool house last Thursday. At no point did either one of us say "This piece of plywood needs to be 3 squares across and 4 pentagons long."
And another thing, they didn't even make the shapes line up with the distances at all.
So you would think that a circle might be an inch, a triangle three inches and a square four inches or something like that.
Nope.
Even the pentagon isn't five inches. It is six inches. As if hexagons don't exist. You have something that measures six inches and you make its symbol a five sided shape? Did it cost too much in the printing to put the extra line in? Like, am I thinking too small here? For me printing a hexagon and a pentagon are pretty much the same but I'm only printing them once or twice, not 200,000 or 500,000 books with them mentioned 20-30 times each. Maybe that extra line adds up there.
I'm probably going to go through my rule books at some point and replace all the symbols with the numbers they represent so it is easier to read. Then turn that little "combat gauge" into terrain or something.
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The only bad thing about the game is the shapes for measurements. I have no idea why anyone thought that was a good idea. It makes everything about the game so much harder from reading the rules to doing the measurements.
Perhaps someone at GW has been playing Saga. It seems to be the way that games are moving, each one having its own special dice and measuring system, e.g. X-Wing and Armada.
Just consider yourself lucky that each shape maps to an integer inch, it seems to me that it would have been more logical for a unit measure to be, say 37mm, thus forcing players to use the custom tools or at least making it difficult not too e.g. Saga dice.
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Perhaps someone at GW has been playing Saga. It seems to be the way that games are moving, each one having its own special dice and measuring system, e.g. X-Wing and Armada.
Just consider yourself lucky that each shape maps to an integer inch, it seems to me that it would have been more logical for a unit measure to be, say 37mm, thus forcing players to use the custom tools or at least making it difficult not too e.g. Saga dice.
I find Saga dice tolerable since they're just six-siders, easily replaced with a chart and regular dice or made out of blank dice, which are readily available. Same goes for minor stuff like Necromunda's firepower dice.
The rest of it though - I don't buy FFG products any more because of their fondness for deliberately designing games full of proprietary crap, and I'm not pleased with GW for heading down that road so much of late. Adeptus Titanicus, Aeronautica Imperials, and now Kill Team with plastic widgets that drive the cost up for little obvious benefit. Warhammer Underworlds and Warcry with the damn cards, and even the Bloodbowl line is getting stuffed with (thankfully optional) custom pitches and dice galore. It may seem harmless, but that garbage is taking time in their overloaded production schedule while we have things like 30 year old minis in the 40K Eldar range. Their priorities are wonky.
Then again, there are a lot of things I'm not pleased with GW about. Idiotic measuring devices in a game I probably won't ever buy might be the least of them. :?
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Thank you for sharing your gaming experience with us.
I'm reading the rules but I haven't tried the game yet and the impression is the same as you describe.
I look forward to playing a few games and then I will decide together with my playmates whether to continue with killteam or switch to Stargrave (we loved Frostgrave).
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I’m quite interested in giving these a play. I’m not a 40k player, but when KT v1 came out I built a small Tau force and enjoyed playing KT with them. But we didn’t play a lot of games.
One of my gaming group has KT2, and has enjoyed painting up the Orcs and terrain, so I’m sure we will be playing soon. I started painting up some metal Harlequins yesterday.
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I've played it 3 times now and agree it is a big improvement from the previous kill team. This is a different game entirely.
It is enjoyable in the 40K universe but I can see things that would put off wargamers who like their realism. Example 1: there is no opportunity fire (the alternative activation does help a bit here though). Example 2: Overwatch does not exist as it used to: It used to be a way to shoot someone charging you while now it is an equalising mechanism allowing someone with fewer models to have another shoot instead of having to pass.
The "movement tool" doesn't bother me - if it is there and painted up, you just use it instead of a tape measure - I can see it would be handy for non-imperial audiences (everyone except USA/UK). Apparently the movement shapes were added late - it was originally just colours - which might account for why they don't match their inches equivalent (e.g. square is 3" and not 4" as expected and the 5-sided pentagon is 6 inches).
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I'm still in 2 minds about this as I've never really gone for 40K stuff, however the small group I've joined are big on 40K and have started to look at Octarius.
My misgivings are twofold:
1. I'm currently starting to put together a 1000 point army for 40K and have some VSF terrain and scatter to finish too; I don't like having too much on as I tend to procrastinate and get nowt done.
2. The Starter Set with free limited edition metal measuring device ('get one while you can' when the pre-order went up) have still not sold out - it concerns me that this game is going to get buried if it doesn't sell well and this suggests that sales are nowhere near what they were expecting.
I do like the look of it though!!!!!
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2. The Starter Set with free limited edition metal measuring device ('get one while you can' when the pre-order went up) have still not sold out - it concerns me that this game is going to get buried if it doesn't sell well and this suggests that sales are nowhere near what they were expecting.
Much as I dislike boosting for this game (or GW in general) I suspect the "failure" to instantly sell out is a direct result of the level of criticism they've been getting since, oh, about the time the Cursed City debacle happened. Between that and other LE releases that barely last ten minutes before selling out online they've taken a lot of heat, and going by the AoS Dominion release and now KT it's pretty clear they've upped their production runs to compensate.
Additionally they've shown us the roadmap for new releases for the game going well into 2022 and there are regular releases scheduled every couple of months for the entire time. The teased Sisters of Battle/Tau boxed set is probably a good look at what those will look like - big, expensive boxed sets like the starter, probably each in a new "battle zone" and likely with their own terrain. GW certainly isn't above flat-out lying about providing support for their games, but it looks to me like they at least plan (and hope) for significant sales and growth for the game. It could still flop if sales are really, really bad, but this doesn't look like a deliberate bait-and-switch from where I'm sitting.
OTOH, many customers are still angry enough with GW to be looking for other games to play (with BTech getting the most out of that ATM) and we're about three weeks from 3rd edition Deadzone hitting from Mantic, which could very well drag significant interest away from KT while it's still young. Add the slew of popular pre-existing skirmish scifi games that sit in a similar niche and KT's facing real competition.
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Thanks for the explanation, I'm not too up on GW stuff but am, as I say, being steered towards it by the desire to play others at the club.
I'll keep it on the radar for the time being and am now going off to look at Deadzone too :?
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I got a game of KTv2 in a couple of weeks ago - which happened to be my first face to face game in 18mths or so!!
We played Harlequins vs Ork Kommandos. It was a good game, flows pretty well, lots of options, pretty brutal, I think I called all the Orks and was down to 3 figures myself.
My Harlequins with 3 activations and some really deadly melee and close range shooting seem pretty powerful. But the Orks had quite a lot of options going for them - and I suspect need more playing to understand all the options. The Harlequin list is simpler in comparison.
The symbol thing for distances is just irritating - movement distances are typically 3 white circles. There is no point to this, a circle is 2”, and there is a red pentagon which it 6”. Why not say movement is a red pentagon. The movement rules aren’t like SoBH, where the figures move along each measuring stick. In KT they can break up their movement into 1” increments. So there is no point to describing movement as 3 circles, it could either by 6 triangles or 1 hexagon. Or just 6”…
Lots of rules for cover and area affects are a triangle or a circle (1” or 2”) and its just harder work each time you read it to translate these into inches. All of this doesn’t have that much impact when playing, but it doesn’t make reading the rules and understanding them very easy at all. And as it says above there is no link between sides of shapes and distances.
I found watching videos a good way to learn the game - my mate who started cold with the rule book found it really heavy going - and he normally picks up rules from books no problem. So watch some of the videos online to learn the core mechanics which are pretty straight forward, then use the rule book to check some of the details. Some of the language in the rules seems needlessly wordy and also uses far too many negatives - which makes it hard to parse.
But overall it is a good fun game - there seem to be lots of tactical choices to make - a force is pretty small, typically 10 models or so, so quick to build. If you already have 40k figures then the Compendium is great as it covers a huge number of factions with army lists. The two armies in the Octariaus book have more options and things available - but its not clear if this makes them competitively better, or just gives you different things to play with.
I’m keen to play again
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I'm loving the game. I really dug the concept of KT small team skirmish and invested in the older edition. However the game itself was pretty duff, roll a 4, roll another 4. One side moves, the other side moves. I played half a dozen games but enjoyed painting up teams.
The new version is so much better, it feels like a tactical skirmish with decisions to be made every activation. There are some quite clever targeting and coer rules that a few are having trouble getting to grips with but I think, in combination with the different order statuses, the new mechanisms deal with the abstract concept that your little figure is crouching in cover or actively trying to shoot/attack.
I was so excited to see a rule book and an army book. All aspects wrapped up in two volumes. But in typical GW fashion the special rules and extras have started. This does appear to be something the GW Fanbois love though. I wonder if us less expansive gamers might start a compendium specific competitive scene... it would make power gaming with the latest lists a thing of the past.
I've played loads of games and even went to Warhammer World for a tourney. It was fun.
One of the things that really indicates this edition is a much better game is the initiative roll. In KT18 no one wanted to win initiative, it was a reactive game. In KT21 every player wants the initiative.
Loving it!
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Some great looking forces there Si!
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Some great looking forces there Si!
Yes, those cultists look great, (in an evil chaotic kind of way,) lots of nice conversions on the duplicats, very well done.
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I can't claim credit for the Nurgle cultist conversions, that was the work of Mr Hicks.
I really like the game and my boy is now on his second T'au team so he's in to it too!!