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Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Hobgoblin on December 01, 2021, 09:46:35 PM
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As my 28mm Alien Squad Leader project (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=133886.0) chugs along (another four elements put together during coffee breaks today), I'm wondering what other sci-fi games use square element basing. Alien Squad Leader is designed for 15mm, using 50mm square bases. I'm keeping everything the same except the figure scale (so two or three 28mm figures per element rather than four or five 15mm ones).
I hope to have several modest armies ready to go this month. But are there any other sci-fi games that use similar basing that I should be thinking about trying out too? I'll probably use some of the primitive elements for Mayhem at some point - in fact, I've been using bases that I originally bought for a Mayhem project.
I really like the look and feel of the 50mm-based "mini-units", so I'm hoping that there are some other games worth trying out with them.
Any pointers much appreciated!
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Tomorrow's War can be played multi-based. Not an easy game to lay hands on though.
Alternatively Critical Mass' rules (now OOP) I think.
I may have copies of both (plus the add on book for TW) I'm looking to move on...
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Tomorrow's War can be played multi-based. Not an easy game to lay hands on though.
Alternatively Critical Mass' rules (now OOP) I think.
I may have copies of both (plus the add on book for TW) I'm looking to move on...
Critical Mass rules can be bought through Ral Partha I believe
Unfortunately I just checked, minis only now I believe :(
Glen
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Tomorrow's War can be played multi-based. Not an easy game to lay hands on though.
In hardcopy, I guess. Pdf is on Wargames Vault, only $20 normally, on sale right now for $10.
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Thanks, all!
What happened to Tomorrow's War? It was an Osprey book at one stage, was it not?
Ditto Critical Mass - I thought the rules had been sold to Ral Partha Europe long ago. It's odd that they seem to put a lot of effort into promoting the game but no longer sell the rules.
Does anyone have any observations on how those games play and what their strengths and weaknesses are?
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Thanks, all!
What happened to Tomorrow's War? It was an Osprey book at one stage, was it not?
Osprey published it, but the rights to the game stayed with Ambush Alley. Beyond that I couldn't say what happened, but AAG is still selling a pdf version that requires a copy of Force On Force to play (so I assume it's not the same document as the Osprey hardcover, which was a stand alone book) and the By Dagger or Talon supplement in both pdf and POD formats. The game got a kind of mixed but generally positive reception IIRC, with the main complaint being that the way the book was edited/laid out made it hard to grasp the gameplay without help from someone who was already familiar with it. Maybe the current pdf fixed that, I know AAG had said they were working to make it easier to get into at one point long ago. The publishing deal with Osprey might prevent them from offering the rules as a POD, but that's just a wild guess.
FWIW I quite liked the rules, although after the first bloom faded I still found myself preferring Stargrunt, partly for clarity and partly from long familiarity (which kind of feed into one another). Dagger or Talon was quite a good expansion, though.
Ditto Critical Mass - I thought the rules had been sold to Ral Partha Europe long ago. It's odd that they seem to put a lot of effort into promoting the game but no longer sell the rules.
Anyone in the industry will tell you minis earn a better money than rules even when they don't have a "native" rules system to use with, and even (for now, so far) in today's age of 3d home printing. RPE isn't really a publishing house, they mostly just make minis - and the CM stuff probably has a market with generalist 15mm scifi rules - like Stargrunt and tomorrow's War, among many others.
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Thanks, Rich. I'll certainly bear Tomorrow's War in mind if Alien Squad Leader doesn't live up to its high reputation (though I'm confident it will - the army lists are a delight, and the game has been around and in print for a while, which is always a good sign).
Anyone in the industry will tell you minis earn a better money than rules even when they don't have a "native" rules system to use with, and even (for now, so far) in today's age of 3d home printing. RPE isn't really a publishing house, they mostly just make minis - and the CM stuff probably has a market with generalist 15mm scifi rules - like Stargrunt and tomorrow's War, among many others.
Yes, that's certainly true. I have quite a few Critical Mass 15s myself. But if the company owns the game, it's odd that it doesn't even have it available as a PDF - especially as it describes the game on the front page of its website! Perhaps there's some rights wrangle there too or something.
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But if the company owns the game, it's odd that it doesn't even have it available as a PDF - especially as it describes the game on the front page of its website! Perhaps there's some rights wrangle there too or something.
I suppose they might not have gotten the files, just the minis. It's also possible they have them but don't know it, or know where they are. Not to dismiss RPE, but they seem a bit disorganized from the outside. For ex, I contacted them about their Noble Armada starship range when they got it from Mongoose years ago and they told me the rest of the minis that weren't on the store were somewhere in the pile of molds and masters they'd gotten in the deal and they'd be putting them up when they figured out what was what. That was more than half a decade ago now and nothing's changed. Either the gent I was trading emails with was wrong, or Mongoose only gave them some of the range, or there's still a big pile of molds somewhere still awaiting attention.
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I don’t think this really fits the specifics of your question Hobgoblin, but it does fit the title of the post - so putting it out there in case it helps anyone else.
GW’s Epic (and the many variants of it) are element based - but at a much smaller size of base and scale of figures. Infantry bases are either 25mm square or 40mm by 12mm rectangles with 4-6 figures (6mm).
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HOTT will work with square bases. As long as the bases are the same frontage. It is not exactly a Sci-fi game, but we find it always gives a good game with a lot of decisions.
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I don’t think this really fits the specifics of your question Hobgoblin, but it does fit the title of the post - so putting it out there in case it helps anyone else.
GW’s Epic (and the many variants of it) are element based - but at a much smaller size of base and scale of figures. Infantry bases are either 25mm square or 40mm by 12mm rectangles with 4-6 figures (6mm).
Ah - now that's an interesting point! The only version of Epic that I've played was the original Adeptus Titanicus - I think we played it after infantry had been introduced, though I can't remember how they worked.
HOTT will work with square bases. As long as the bases are the same frontage. It is not exactly a Sci-fi game, but we find it always gives a good game with a lot of decisions.
Yes - I'm a massive HOTT enthusiast, and it's probably the game we play most (chiefly the D3H2 variant now). Oddly enough, some of the elements in my Alien Squad Leader project started life as a "40K HOTT" project that I started before lockdown to introduce some friends to the game. I've since introduced them to HOTT with more traditional armies, so I've been recycling the elements into Alien Squad Leader.
With the rules as written, sci-fi HOTT would certainly be a good game, but it would be very 'zoomed out'. I was using 40K orks as warband and space marines as blades, so bolter fire would have been part of close combat.
I've been wondering if Mayhem might be tweakable for sci-fi. The weapon ranges are short, with 20" the maximum (i.e. you roll d20 to hit and need to make the distance to the target in inches to hit), but for sci-fi weapons, this could be tweaked to d20 +10 or d20 +20 - so that close range offers a "killing zone" in which the damage roll would apply automatically. The overdrive rule would still allow units to storm through fields of fire when the command points were available.
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Mantic make a mass battle sci fi game that uses elements called Warpath. I have not played it so no idea what its like but the rules are free on their website so maybe worth a look?
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Thanks for the tip! I've just had a look, and it seems that the first edition of Warpath did use elements, but it now uses individual figures. I'll download the rules and take a look anyway, though.
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The mention of Epic belatedly reminds me that GW did a 28mm scale element-based variant of 40K a few years back. It was called 40K Apocalypse and while I think it's already OOP and doubt it's of much interest compared to ASL, there's a review here if you want to take a look:
https://www.goonhammer.com/warhammer-40000-apocalypse-review-and-unboxing/
Never tried it but it doesn't seem to have been very popular or lasted very long.
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I’m not sure 40k Appocalyse was element based - but as it treated each unit as a single entity, it could easily have been. It was an interesting game, and we stole some ideas for our home brew rules. Probably the main one was that whilst hits were applied to units within the normal phasing, the effect of those hits was only evaluated in the end phase. So your unit might get shot up early on, but could then still conduct its actions.
This stopped a lot of the alpha strike nonsense that often dominates 40k.
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Wasn't 40k Apocalypse just the old Epic Armageddon rules repackaged for use with 40k models?
I might be wrong but I sort of dismissed it as that at the time (not that they weren't good rules- better than 40k anyway!)
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Wasn't 40k Apocalypse just the old Epic Armageddon rules repackaged for use with 40k models?
I might be wrong but I sort of dismissed it as that at the time (not that they weren't good rules- better than 40k anyway!)
Nope. You're probably thinking of the earlier 40K Armageddon rules, which were designed to let you put tens or hundreds of thousands of 4oK points on the tables at once. It still wasn't really Epic-like (any version), just an excuse to put more models on the table. Didn't work very well in my opinion.
Apocalypse used actual element bases (or at least movement trays) for infantry, had completely different stat cards to any previous game, and weirdly used a mix of d6 and d12 dice for resolving combat. First time we had a d12 since what, 2nd edition multi-meltas? :)
There was also Epic 40K, but that was designed for 6mm figs and (in hindsight) played like a prototype of Epic Armageddon, which was teh next iteration of the long, convoluted Epic game series. First edition of Epic that used the blast marker mechanic to reflect morale/disruption/being pinned under fire. I suppose you could have played it in 28mm rather than 6mm using element bases for infantry and modifying movement and ranges, but it would have been a bit of a pain to do so.
I’m not sure 40k Appocalyse was element based - but as it treated each unit as a single entity, it could easily have been.
Weren't the movement trays they made specifically for the game element bases? I guess maybe it's just semantics - like you said each unit was a separate element no matter what model(s) made it up.
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Depending on your needs and preferences, Dirtside might work for you, it has for me. While intended for 6mm gaming it is not a stretch to use it for larger scale (just scale up the bases and ranges) The infantry move as elements on bases and stay together as units. The rules allow you to stat out any vehicle that you might have and are quick to play.
Even better, the rules can be downloaded for free over at Ground Zero Games (GZG)
A friend of mine did the math to convert the chit drawing into a simple chart (neither of us were keen to keep drawing chits)
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Nope. You're probably thinking of the earlier 40K Armageddon rules, which were designed to let you put tens or hundreds of thousands of 4oK points on the tables at once. It still wasn't really Epic-like (any version), just an excuse to put more models on the table. Didn't work very well in my opinion.
Apocalypse used actual element bases (or at least movement trays) for infantry, had completely different stat cards to any previous game, and weirdly used a mix of d6 and d12 dice for resolving combat. First time we had a d12 since what, 2nd edition multi-meltas? :)
There was also Epic 40K, but that was designed for 6mm figs and (in hindsight) played like a prototype of Epic Armageddon, which was teh next iteration of the long, convoluted Epic game series. First edition of Epic that used the blast marker mechanic to reflect morale/disruption/being pinned under fire. I suppose you could have played it in 28mm rather than 6mm using element bases for infantry and modifying movement and ranges, but it would have been a bit of a pain to do so.
Weren't the movement trays they made specifically for the game element bases? I guess maybe it's just semantics - like you said each unit was a separate element no matter what model(s) made it up.
No I mean Epic Armageddon. The 2003 Jervis Johnson game- which I guess would have been the third (or fourth?) edition of Epic? (After Titanicus/Space Marine/Titan Legions and then Epic 40k). Nothing to do with 40k apart from the setting- or the Armageddon 40k supplement that came later.
Looks like I was wrong anyway- I just didn't expect GW to come up with a new game when they could just rehash am old one.
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Depending on your needs and preferences, Dirtside might work for you, it has for me. While intended for 6mm gaming it is not a stretch to use it for larger scale (just scale up the bases and ranges) The infantry move as elements on bases and stay together as units. The rules allow you to stat out any vehicle that you might have and are quick to play.
Even better, the rules can be downloaded for free over at Ground Zero Games (GZG)
A friend of mine did the math to convert the chit drawing into a simple chart (neither of us were keen to keep drawing chits)
There used to be several sites with charts that let you use dice to emultae randomizer chit draws, but they're eluding me at this point. BGG has this thing, though:
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/22829/dsii-chit-pullerxls
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Sorry I didn't go through the whole thread to check but I will throw Hammer's Slammers The Crucible into the mix and OGRE/GEV miniatures rules in just for good measure.
http://www.hammers-slammers.com/home.htm
http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/products/ogregev/
Happy hunting
Glen
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Another one to consider might be Mantic's Warpath.
A bit like the latest iteration of Apocalypse 40k, it uses individual models set on a sabot multibase; however, much like its 40k counterpart, it is a game better suited to smaller scale figures with infantry fixed multiply to a base... A bit like Epic 40k! ;)
Anyway, the rules are free here (https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/books-warpath/warpath-rulebook-digital/), so it wouldn't cost you a lot to look through and maybe try it out if you fancy.
There's a background/sourcebook for it here (https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/books-warpath/warpath-sourcebook-digital/) (also free), and a skirmish version of the game here (https://www.manticgames.com/games/warpath/books-warpath/warpath-firefight/) in case you fancy some small commando raid style adventures (still free!).
(Small disclaimer though; I've not played it!).
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Another option is Halo: Ground Command. While the game is out of production, the fan community is quite solid and 3d files are available for almost all units with new ones being added reasonably regularly. Spartan and 343 industries seemingly gave their blessings for the community to continue working on the game after the former folder.
Rules are available free in the Ground Command Facebook group.- if you don't have FB but want to take a look, let me know and I'll see if I can mirror them on Dropbox.
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Future War Commander uses elements and has army lists in the rule book.
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Agis's Victory Decision:Future War can by played with bases (I think the idea was to account for 15 (FoW) mm multiple bases - as these are a SF version of his WWII set). Also includes a fairly flexible army list system
Played "Alien Squad Leader" when the Author first released it (part of the Lincoln Barn Club). The system is great, and the second (current?) Edition improved on it
Recommended.
And I second "Warpath", it's a great game
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Apologies for the tangent.
A quick question for you ASL players, does the game use a 3x3 board or a 4x4 board?
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Apologies for the tangent.
A quick question for you ASL players, does the game use a 3x3 board or a 4x4 board?
It's 4x4 up.
Many thanks, everyone, for the other suggestions. I'll certainly look into them.
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One more for you Hobgoblin: Epic 40k.
Yes, I know it's OoP, but the rules and such are easy enough to come by if you search a bit.
All troops, light vehicles, and weapons were based multiply, with normal and large vehicles being individual.
Although it's perhaps not "true" element basing, the gameplay certainly was aimed at that, and force selection was pretty easy and generous too.
It'll only take you an afternoon to read the rules, play a solo test game or two, and then you'll pretty much know it by heart.
Despite the hard time old Epic fans gave it, and the alleged superiority of its successor Epic Armageddon, it is still one of my favourite games of all time.
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Theres also "Restless Galaxies" by Blood and Spectacle gaames on Wargames Vault. It's kind of a bodge of the Rampant system with extra bits thrown in to give you a cool mini scale sci fi game. It's not too expensive either!
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Another one to consider might be Mantic's Warpath.
I ended up downloading this, based on your recommendation, and found most of what att least i was looking for in a game like this, with multibased infantry, different types of actions, and orders.
While I might end up tweaking some things, or mashing together with F28 which has some similar concepts, it is a good base for what i want in a 15mm battle game.
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@ Glasvandrare:
Glad to hear!
The nice thing about Warpath is that it's about company-level (or brigade is you go 6/10mm), but also that t has two other related games - Firefight (which is about platoon level), and Deadzone (which is squad-level).
Because Deadzone is somewhat abstracted (it is essentially grid-based, and LOS is very simplified), it is playable at relatively smaller scales too - 15mm should be okay I think. If during the course of your games you want to do a few commando-style missions, Firefight and Deadzone should enable you to do this without needing to re-invent too much. Both of these games are for individually-based troopers though, so element/multi-basing won't really work. Then again, for Deadzone, you only need 5-12 figures a side so it's not exactly a huge bother if you give it a go in 15mm and don't like it.
Furthermore, if you've already mapped your own forces onto those of Warpath, it's easy to port over to the other two games as well.
...Anyway, apologies to Hobgoblin for the small thread derailment! o_o ;)
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...Anyway, apologies to Hobgoblin for the small thread derailment! o_o ;)
No problem at all! Lots of interesting stuff coming through on this thread.
I've downloaded the Warpath rulebook; I hadn't earlier because I'd read that only the first edition was element-based (the current edition is, but it seems to be doing its best to disguise the fact!). It looks as if my ASQL elements will work fine for it - perhaps doubled up to get an appropriate footprint, though with four or six figures rather than five, which seems to be neither here nor there.
Agis's Victory Decision:Future War can by played with bases (I think the idea was to account for 15 (FoW) mm multiple bases - as these are a SF version of his WWII set). Also includes a fairly flexible army list system
Played "Alien Squad Leader" when the Author first released it (part of the Lincoln Barn Club). The system is great, and the second (current?) Edition improved on it
Recommended.
And I second "Warpath", it's a great game
Thanks - interesting on all counts!
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Warpath deserves so much more love than it gets. It's a game by gamers who want something that is both easy to learn and with meaningful tactical decisions.
Epic 40k would be good for really, really big combined arms battles if you don't like the hard sci-fi approach of Dirtside II.
(note- I have read through them, but I haven't gotten to play any of these, so my take is admittedly limited).
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I recall the Traveller wargame, Striker using based infantry. The second version was based on Command Decision, a modern/ WW2 system. Both good for bigger battles. Should be easy to get a pdf.
Future war commander might also be worth a look. Again for bigger battles but allows you to treat units as individual soldiers. Probably long out of print.
Dirt side is also a good a good system and free. More aimed at smaller scales but would work with lower troop densities in bigger scales.
Another option would be to look at hex based wargames. Generally simpler mechanics.