Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Atheling on December 09, 2021, 10:45:42 AM
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Hi,
I've been combing the net in a determined effort to find some information what types of battlements and towers the City of Dara 530AD would have been surrounded by with a view to making or getting a model for the display game of the Battle of Dara we have planned for later this year.
So far I have been unable to find any images of what the battlements might have looked like so I thought I would put up a post asking if anyone if they have any ideas on how they would look? Square towers or round? Western European (Late Roman) battlements or more a more Eastern influence?
The Ruins of Dara:
I'm sure you can appreciate, it is hard to discern exactly what the battlements and towers of Dara might have looked like from the ruins that sit in place today.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-YRp88VxVLT8/YbHZXxEu6FI/AAAAAAABIWw/B32iLf4_fbos8ZCgoVfscPilpnG29ARWwCNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/20180303_150417_result.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mZzmURm-lRo/YbHZX_q-dzI/AAAAAAABIW0/KyP5hLm7d9gsr3leR4El4KOD7hY2B5KlQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/20180303_150705_result.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9SuEux4DMhQ/YbHZXyqHc7I/AAAAAAABIWs/yNYWBuX47g8szn2dhzVwqfyVzy5HyTbIQCNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/20180303_151213_result.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5DvEWQKocc8/YbHZYveZu3I/AAAAAAABIW4/4QHKUnxl54IWffMizXpYf-C3Ep5lmeReACNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/20180303_151221_result.jpg)
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3C5DTpQycAw/YbHZZN_d0KI/AAAAAAABIW8/f8-5HBLZl4s8p6YS-g2M-B11R6g3BdYqACNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/20180303_155226_result.jpg)
I did happen upon some images of the Turkish town of which seems to portray both "square" and "round" towers with Late Roman type battlements but I cannot be sure when they were actually built from the images on then net.
The only thing I have to go on thus far are the famous Walls of Constantinople which were modified over the centuries.
Restored Section of the Theodosian Walls of Constantinople:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Tcmr_gNYU2s/YbHcenpmFlI/AAAAAAABIXg/cbnaGBRdAQ4_qbJS2FZy9-ieeSV56zACgCNcBGAsYHQ/s1920/Walls_of_Constantinople%2B%25281%2529.jpg)
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I have nothing useful to add about the architecture but I do admire your determination to finish this in such a very short period of time 8)
by with a view to making or getting a model for the display game of the Battle of Dara we have planned for later this year.
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I have nothing useful to add about the architecture but I do admire your determination to finish this in such a very short period of time 8)
Thanks. I'm sure there must be some archaeological reconstructions out there, even if just on paper. Fingers crossed as I don't want to have to guestimate too much, make the model then realise it's wrong :)
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Have a look at this link - just do a search on Dara and you should find it around para. 42
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/65404/65404-h/65404-h.htm
There is a drawing: (its looks close to your Turkish picture and the reconstruction of Constantinople).
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Have a look at this link - just do a search on Dara and you should find it around para. 42
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/65404/65404-h/65404-h.htm
There is a drawing: (its looks close to your Turkish picture and the reconstruction of Constantinople).
Brilliant David H! 8)
That is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Many thanks.
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Brilliant David H! 8)
That is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Many thanks.
No problem - I remembered reading Procopius many years ago now, and finding that illustration was fortunate.
I look forward to seeing what you do with it.
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Atheling, I'm no expert but have a few books on Roman fortifications which include some data on the East. I would definitely go "projecting semi-circular" but personally think the Gutenberg diagram looks too medieval....almost fantasy. Maybe look at the walls of Rome which were repaired by Belisarius. The Osprey "Fortress" book "The Walls of Rome" has some nice pictures and explanation as to the evolution. The companion volume "The Walls of Constantinople" also has good illustrations and explanation but shows square towers.
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Atheling, I'm no expert but have a few books on Roman fortifications which include some data on the East. I would definitely go "projecting semi-circular" but personally think the Gutenberg diagram looks too medieval....almost fantasy. Maybe look at the walls of Rome which were repaired by Belisarius.
Good point and one that I didn't even think of. Can you recommend anything please SJWi?
The Osprey "Fortress" book "The Walls of Rome" has some nice pictures and explanation as to the evolution. The companion volume "The Walls of Constantinople" also has good illustrations and explanation but shows square towers.
I'll put an order in for the book. Many thanks SJWi
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You'll find some better period ruins at ksar lemsa.Incuding towers there's enough original architecture to get a feel of the original battlements. If you combine these with the Justinian built gate and modifications of Constantinople.
Your going to have a plausible interpretation..
There's enough of a parallel in Construction between Dara and Lemsa ( all be it on a smaller scale.) to make it a worthwhile contemplating As you can trace the original battlements spacing and heights by looking past the later modifications and comparing the larger stone work in all the towers and wall.
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Tin Shed/Atheling, interesting posts. You may also look at the “fortress” of Younga in Tunisia. Interesting mix of square and semi-circular towers.
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Your absolutely right Ounga has great examples of towers and wall construction. It's suffered the fate of many obsolete fortifications in that the the easiest point to remove free dressed stone is from the battlements first. But the remaining walls and towers are cracking.
What I should have mentioned was Thesaloniki (although the majority of the walls are slightly earlier.) But the do give a good example of period battlements ( if look for the correct sections of city wall.)
I'd say look at Tunisia in general if weren't for the fact most of us would get sidetracked with Starwars locations.
I think the most honest answer is once you've got the foot print of the walls and construction method. a ten minute Google of Early Byisantine fortifications and your pretty much able to give as good as an interpretation as anyone else. Because these are organic structure that change with military thinking and fashion. What we see is often the preservation of something at the point it becomes obsolete. Not at at the height of it's use.
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Dr Phil Hendry modelled the walls of Dara in 28mm, there's a picture of it in my blog post on the link below. I've lost touch with his blog, but if you can find it there should be lots of useful information.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_uLLJmEmMnE/V0LN5ojyTDI/AAAAAAAAowk/PWXkVXdjCxopVvUjiNMxOWq1v3c-aN_QQCLcB/s1600/20160522_095916.jpg)
https://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html (ftp://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html)
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Dr Phil Hendry modelled the walls of Dara in 28mm, there's a picture of it in my blog post on the link below. I've lost touch with his blog, but if you can find it there should be lots of useful information.
https://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html (ftp://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html)
Thanks Simon, the link isn't working at my end.
EDIT:
Cut and pasted and working :) Thanks again.
https://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html (https://bigredbat.blogspot.com/2016/05/to-partizan-and-back.html)
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Atheling, I'm no expert but have a few books on Roman fortifications which include some data on the East. I would definitely go "projecting semi-circular" but personally think the Gutenberg diagram looks too medieval....almost fantasy.
You may be correct, this illustration was done in the early to mid 19th century and there is something of the 'gothic' about it.
However I suggest that only the crenellations are really suspect. Procopius describes in detail some kind of platform (portico in the text) at the top of the wall for the battlements to be built on it is entirely possible the depiction is accurate, although I would go with plain squared crenellations, and who knows what was actually visible when the illustrator was visiting these sites 200 years ago.
One thing that is clear is that the walls were not in a good state of repair and i suspect they were pretty rough and ready.
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Atheling, I'm no expert but have a few books on Roman fortifications which include some data on the East. I would definitely go "projecting semi-circular" but personally think the Gutenberg diagram looks too medieval....almost fantasy.
given the book it is from was a translation of a work by Procopius (who did not illustrate his writings), and was published in 1888, the medieval appearance was probably intentional on the part of the artist. that was fairly common back then. few people took the time to understand how historical sites would have actually looked, and they tended to depict them with medieval elements as if that were a universal style rather than something that was developed fairly recently. (of course part of that is the gothic style was having a bit of a revival at the time)
i'd use crenelations and texture details closer to the walls of constantinople
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given the book it is from was a translation of a work by Procopius (who did not illustrate his writings), and was published in 1888, the medieval appearance was probably intentional on the part of the artist. that was fairly common back then. few people took the time to understand how historical sites would have actually looked, and they tended to depict them with medieval elements as if that were a universal style rather than something that was developed fairly recently. (of course part of that is the gothic style was having a bit of a revival at the time)
i'd use crenelations and texture details closer to the walls of constantinople
Having worked at Durham Cathedral (also responsible for Durham Castle) I don't think the diagrams look very Gothic at all. Maybe a little.
I'm still weighing up all the info I've been sent and reading I have to do; so it will be some time before I come to a decision.