Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Col.Stone on September 30, 2009, 10:06:24 AM
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Did they see any use with the italians, in sicily or elsewhere?
failing that, did italy use any of the 88's, i need AT-guns lol
I know of the lancia with Cannone Da 90/53 already..
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They did indeed use 88s, but the 90/53 gun (not just mounted on the Lancia, but used in several other ways) was both more common in Italian service and, as it happens, a slightly more effective weapon. (The armor penetration was more effective at slightly longer ranges, don't have the data in front of me at the moment, but anyway... it was a good weapon.) As I said, there were a few 88s, but they were really sparse in comparison to Italian 90s.
On Sicily, very few of the guns were mounted as "Autocannones" (that is, on trucks); some sources say that none of them were, others say that a handful were. I was unable to confirm either when writing my book, so I usually assume they were there in very small numbers. The 90s were typically found either on field mounts, or on the Semovente da 90/53, quite an impressive weapon in its own right (25 of the 30 built were used on Sicily). The remainder of the Semovente 90s were used against the Germans at Rome, as were several Semovente 105s.
I'm not aware of any PAK 43 guns in Italian service, although I'm sure it's possible they may have acquired a few in '43.
There were quite a few indigenous Italian anti-tank designs, and the "Effeto Pronto" round made them more effective than they would have been under normal circumstances. The most common was of course the ubiquitous 47mm (which was a really excellent weapon), but there were also 37s, 75s, etc. Virtually all of them would have been used on Sicily. Just about any artillery that wasn't nailed down or being refitted was rushed to the Island in defense. They would have used the railroad guns if they'd managed to figure out how to get them over;)
Italian armor on Sicily included Semovente 90s, Semovente 75s, Semovente 47s, Fiat 2000s, CV35s. and R-35s. Some M15/42s were slated for the island but they didn't arrive in time, and ended up being used in Italy (again, mainly against the Germans). These carried a long version of the 47mm, which was (again) a very effective weapon, despite the calibre.
Hope this helps.
-Doc
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Lots of help :)
I'm having trouble finding AT&AA gunsfor my 28mm italians, besides the Chieftan models/companyB lancia with 90/53, there really isn't much choice, strategia e tattica has the 47mm, but a minimum order of €20 or so has put me off buying one just to see it :)
which is why i've started considering getting some "looted" gear =)
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Lots of help :)
I'm having trouble finding AT&AA gunsfor my 28mm italians, besides the Chieftan models/companyB lancia with 90/53, there really isn't much choice, strategia e tattica has the 47mm, but a minimum order of €20 or so has put me off buying one just to see it :)
which is why i've started considering getting some "looted" gear =)
I know what you mean. Italian gear in 28mm is ridiculously rare, especially if you *gasp* want to fight outside North Africa. I plan to do a few Italian vehicles in my miniatures range, but obviously that isn't much help to you now:(. I wish I could think of something, but if I come across anything, I'll let you know.
-Doc
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Much appreciated :)
yeah, i just want to do mediterranean/russia, so most of the stuff is of little value to me, sunhelmets and shorts everywhere :)
I do have a bunch of Chieftain models/companyB's L6/40 paper-tanks, but they just aren't much value against t34's ;)
I did see that warlord/bolt action are planning a 47/32 in the near future, that should keep me happy for awhile :)
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the Italians had Railway guns???
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anzio annie :)
i suppose it was german, but it was in italy :)
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Actually, they did have railway guns. They didn't see much service until the defense of Italy and the Italian Civil War of 1943-45. There was a grandiose plan to mount of them on a barge and use it against Albania, but it never panned out. The largest Italian gun of the war to see service was actually a coastal mount - 350mm.
There were also armored trains in Africa, some of which had smaller mounted artillery, but they were used almost exclusively to run supplies.
-Doc
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again armoured trains...
where can I read this without having to pester You about every detail?
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writing my book,
which one would that be btw :)
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"where can I read this without having to pester You about every detail?"
I'll need to check my books for the reference, former user. Can't think of it off hand.
which one would that be btw :)
It's a basic guide to the Italian Armed Forces in WW2 called "Con Tutto Il Cuore" - for the "Panzer Korps" miniatures game. Not exactly a many pages thick thesis, but I do have a lot of information packed into there. You can get it from Caliver Books, The Warstore, and a few other places.
-Doc
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thank You Doc
I am not on the run, just interested in this special topic :)
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Hello former user,
if you're interested in railway guns, are you aware of this book?
http://www.amazon.de/Eisenbahngesch%C3%BCtze-Welt-Franz-Kosar/dp/3613019760 (http://www.amazon.de/Eisenbahngesch%C3%BCtze-Welt-Franz-Kosar/dp/3613019760)
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Cheers Doc, looks like a useful supplement :)
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Cheers Doc, looks like a useful supplement :)
You're welcome. Occasionally people who have it tell me they like it, but I have no idea how well its sold, etc. It was designed for use as a general reference for wargamers/military history enthusiasts, not use PK players. It was a really interesting book to work on - got to plow through a lot of data, and learned more about Mussolini than I ever really wanted to;)
Oh yes, I also confirmed that at least sixty percent of the material that certain wargaming companies spew about the Italians is absolute bollocks!;)
I'll dig up my copy of the book and try to get some data (basic) here for you about the anti-tank guns. Just give me a bit.:)
In the interest of shameless self promotion... I also just did one on the Hungarian Army ("To the Last Huszar"), one on the Minor Allies in 1940 (Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and Norway) that hasn't been released, and I'm working on the book for Finland.
-Alex
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It was designed for use as a general reference for wargamers/military history enthusiasts
That's what i figured, i like that kind of books :)
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thanks HG
did not know it was still for sale
don't remeber how much about other than german railway guns is inside
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I've lend it to a friend, otherwise I could give you some details. If you're still interested, I'll inform you, when I get it back..
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always interested
as I said, I am not on the run
vielen dank!
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Some common Anti-Tank weapons found in the Italian Arsenal. Any AA weapons I mention here were also pressed into service as anti-tank guns.
1939-1943
Solothurn 20mm - Used in an anti-tank rifle form, usually mounted on a pair of small wheels. Also found in vehicle mounts.
20/65 - 20mm ATR adapted for anti-aircraft work. Almost always found on "Autocannoni" during the war.
37/54 - An AA weapon, rarely found in the field, and usually used as a naval mount. A version of this weapon was used as the primary armament for the M11/39, and was actually a fairly effective piece, though in general the basic 37/54 was not. Maybe the vehicle mount was more stable and hence, had a better trajectory?
47/32 M35 "Elefantino" - Italian copy of the Austrian Bohler. From 1942, supplied with "Effeto Pronto" rounds.
65/17 Field Gun - Older field gun successfully used as an anti-tank piece. Equipped from 1942 with EP rounds. Several of these were mounted on trucks and used as Autocannoni.
75/18 Howitzer - A very good anti-tank gun. Used on the Semovente 75. Occasionally used in field mounts. Equipped from 1942 with EP rounds.
75/34 Howitzer - Modernized version of the above.
77/28 Field Gun - Very commonly found in support of cavalry formations. EP rounds were tested, but I don't know if they were ever actually issued.
88/27 - The German '88'. Obviously an excellent weapon. Not very common. Italian crews preferred their own designs.
90/53 - Excellent weapon. Superior muzzle velocity to that of the 88. Used as an anti-aircraft, anti-tank, and anti-infantry weapon. Found on field mounts, but also used as Autocannoni.
AFTER the Armistice, the Italians received a fairly large number of American 57mm guns (known as the 57/50), and British 17 Pounders, known to the Italians as the 76/55.
The RSI (pro Axis Italian troops) used a mix of Italian and Axis weaponry, and the pro-Allied Italians used their own mix of Allied and Italian designs.
As for the railway gun issue, former user, I must correct myself.
The largest rail gun used by the Italians was the 381/40! (that's right, a 381mm gun!). It was apparently used in long range support roles during the North African and Italian campaigns.
The largest coastal gun to see action was actually the 305/17 Howitzer. Used in both Italy and Sicily.
Hope this is of some use,
Doc
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thanks
long range support in north africa??
wow
with the few railway lines there quite surprising
but they did not fire over the mediterranean? ;)
the armoured train in North Africa is of even more interest
but I don't want to Hijack the thread - maybe You can PM me some time when You find the book about the NA armoured train? please?
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Don't worry about hijacking former user, all info on italian gear is welcome, i even edited the title now =)
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ok
do the meat cans labeled AM also count as armour? ;)
or maybe throwing projectiles? ;)