Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Gonzo100100 on February 24, 2022, 02:03:45 AM
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There are many illustrations showing leather square on Norman chainmail armour, what is it and what is it for and why wasn’t it used more often?
Link to one of those illustrations: https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/314618723951237210/ (https://www.pinterest.jp/pin/314618723951237210/)
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"The panel on the chest is one of the more puzzling queries raised by the Bayeux tapestry. It is either a reinforcement for that part of the armour or it is an untied ventail poorly rendered by the 11th century seamstresses. The ventail was the mail face covering. In the tapestry if is only seen on men not in combat.
Modern artists put the square on the chest, even in combat, interpreting it as a reinforcement. The original sources are not that clear.
Look up the tapestry.
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Many, though not all, of the knights on the Bayeux tapestry have them. I’m not sure that anyone knows what they represent. I’ve seen suggestions that they’re an extra layer of protection for the chest and, more convincingly, that they’re a flap covering the neck opening of the hauberk.
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Yep, that covers the two main theories. Reinforcement for the chest and neck opening, akin to a plastron or those shirts popular in the old west that buttoned across.
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"The panel on the chest is one of the more puzzling queries raised by the Bayeux tapestry. It is either a reinforcement for that part of the armour or it is an untied ventail poorly rendered by the 11th century seamstresses. The ventail was the mail face covering. In the tapestry if is only seen on men not in combat.
Modern artists put the square on the chest, even in combat, interpreting it as a reinforcement. The original sources are not that clear.
Look up the tapestry.
Yep, either a reinforcement which I don't personally buy, or more likely (IMHO) a ventail to tie to the coif/helm to cover much of the face.
See image below (then guy on the left):
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I think I remember reading that the ventail theory rested on the fact that in the tapestry, those who had the square showing on the chest didn't have the face covered, whereas those without the square did have the face covered. Which would suggest it's more likely. But then I haven't checked myself, so like the best secret agents, I can neither confirm nor deny. If it was a reinforcement for the heart area, wouldn't a rigid plate be easier and make more sense in an area that didn't need flexibility? Who knows.
As an aside, I read an article about a woman who, for a hobby, is completing a 1:1 scale reproduction in embroidery (cos it ain't a tapestry, strictly speaking) and has discovered several errors along the way. This reminds us of the fact that as sources go, it's imperfect, but then ain't they all? Just got to make an informed guess.
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Thank you for your answers. They brought clarity and comfort in the sense that now I know “we don’t know for sure what it is” instead of “I don’t know”.
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As an aside, I read an article about a woman who, for a hobby, is completing a 1:1 scale reproduction in embroidery (cos it ain't a tapestry, strictly speaking) and has discovered several errors along the way. This reminds us of the fact that as sources go, it's imperfect, but then ain't they all? Just got to make an informed guess.
I once saw a news story here in Denmark where a bunch of women in an old folks home had started a 1:1 copy of the tapestry. Where one of the old ladies taking part hoped that she would be dead by the time they got to all the chainmail. :D
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My money is on the reinforcement theory - given that in the evolution of armour additional plates to counter lance thrusts soon became a feature of 'flak jacket' style surcoats and cuirboilli and metal 'bullet proof vests' worn under or over mail. Clearly there was a need for additional chest protection quite early on in the couched lance tradition. The Normans were evolving from the overarm spear thrust to the Frankish couched lance so both are depicted. These additional defensive features were important enough to be sculpted in the underarm detail of late C12 and C13 tomb effigies (such as in Pershore abbey) with evolution into brigandines, jacks and the mail and plate armour used by the Turks.
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A thought - ancient mailcoats were often doubled over the shoulders to stop slashes, the most dangerous blow feared in western Europe. Something similar to counter overarm lance thrusts is plausible.
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My money is on the reinforcement theory - given that in the evolution of armour additional plates to counter lance thrusts soon became a feature of 'flak jacket' style surcoats and cuirboilli and metal 'bullet proof vests' worn under or over mail. Clearly there was a need for additional chest protection quite early on in the couched lance tradition. The Normans were evolving from the overarm spear thrust to the Frankish couched lance so both are depicted. These additional defensive features were important enough to be sculpted in the underarm detail of late C12 and C13 tomb effigies (such as in Pershore abbey) with evolution into brigandines, jacks and the mail and plate armour used by the Turks.
A good argument but I think this not to be the case. Of course, technically both views are valid.
What is the most instinctual and in fact most common piece of armour? The helmet. Why? It protects the head. Thus I feel theses mysterious additions to the armour to be (most likely) to be ventails protecting the face. The face being part of the head.
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I’d happily argue the mis-reproduced ventail/coif idea. If for no other reason than the absence of ‘reinforcement’ in mailed-face figures and the ‘transport’ mail carried on poles. If re-enforcement of the chest was seen to be necessary, why not simply extend the ventail further down over the chest? Pictures attached (hopefully) of extended mail and re-enact or with dropped ventail.
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the 'reinforcement' does all seem to be depicted on the upper torso near the throat. Traditionally armour add-ons were placed lower down to protect the chest and abdomen. I think Atheling may be correct in this respect. The ventail would serve as a double layer around the throat where the mail coat protection is weakest. It is also a vulnerable area above the rim of the shield and when lowered to strike is exposed to counter strikes...
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Come on, chaps, just look at Moriarty's photo... it is obviously a television screen, a knight in entertainment system. Probably only black and white though.
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Looks more like Knights in White Satin if you ask me.
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The Bayeux tapestry knights with the squares on their chests are depicted with mail coifs just like those without them. Could it be that they represent additional facial protection, worn only by some knights, that tie to the coif? Like a mail veil that could be untied to aid breathing or communication. Is there a proper name for such a piece of armour? It's not aventail if my understanding of that term is correct.
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The Bayeux tapestry knights with the squares on their chests are depicted with mail coifs just like those without them. Could it be that they represent additional facial protection, worn only by some knights, that tie to the coif? Like a mail veil that could be untied to aid breathing or communication. Is there a proper name for such a piece of armour? It's not aventail if my understanding of that term is correct.
Yes, it's called a "ventail" :)
Bacisally, "(in medieval armour) a covering for the lower part of the face", Collins Dictionary.
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Ta.
Anyone seen any knights on the tapestry with the ventail in place on the face?
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Ta.
Anyone seen any knights on the tapestry with the ventail in place on the face?
You can explore the whole tapestry in high resolution here:
EXPLORETHE BAYEUX TAPESTRY ONLINE:
https://www.bayeuxmuseum.com/en/the-bayeux-tapestry/discover-the-bayeux-tapestry/explore-online/
If you go to 50, them extreme right, it looks to me like the knight is wearing a ventail. The thing is, the tapestry was not made by military people so suffers from the usual distortion one would expect. For example, all the Anglo Danes are wearing what looks like trendy shorts made out of mail. This was certainly not the case! lol
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If you go to 50, them extreme right, it looks to me like the knight is wearing a ventail.
That might be the bit where William gets drunk (the quote says "HIC WILLELM DUX"). I'm guessing that's Bishop Odo with the club, pointing and saying to him, "My, what a fine example of a Norman ventail."
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Of it might be the bit where Duke William, the bastard, decides to test the effectiveness of the ventail by clobbering a knight who laughed at his mail leggings.
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Come on, chaps, just look at Moriarty's photo... it is obviously a television screen, a knight in entertainment system. Probably only black and white though.
So, prototype Teletubbies, then? Why did I not think of that!
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A clearer comparison is earlier in the Bayeux Tapestry.
For knights at rest, they have the flaps down, forming the "square" on the chest.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/54/9666-260222083334.jpeg)
For charging knights, note how the leather edges of the "squares" are now conforming to the contours of their necks and covering them.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/54/9666-260222083430.jpeg)
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A clearer comparison is earlier in the Bayeux Tapestry.
For knights at rest, they have the flaps down, forming the "square" on the chest.
Well, the manufacturers were willing to make sure that the Normans rode stallions ;) :P
Actually, you make a very good point, this is certainly an argument that I prefer.
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Wasn't the ventail face mask just an early attempt at plaque virus protection.
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Wasn't the ventail face mask just an early attempt at plaque virus protection?
A toothbrush would be cheaper and more effective.
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Well, the manufacturers were willing to make sure that the Normans rode stallions ;) :P
lol
As they say, modesty wasn't invented yet.
Actually, you make a very good point, this is certainly an argument that I prefer.
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lol
As they say, modesty wasn't invented yet.
I could add to that, but in the interests of keeping the tone clean I will keep stum! lol