Lead Adventure Forum

Other Stuff => Bazaar of Obscurities => Commercial => Topic started by: Grumpy Gnome on 12 March 2022, 09:37:14 AM

Title: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 12 March 2022, 09:37:14 AM
Disappointing news.

https://www.4groundpublishing.co.uk/

I do not know why they are going out of business. Do any of you know?
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: voltan on 12 March 2022, 10:26:03 AM
Due to increasing costs is the announcement, but no more info than that.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: fred on 12 March 2022, 10:29:35 AM
Thats a shame - they had some kind of internal buy-out a couple of years ago

I suspect there is a lot of competition from hobbiest style producers these days and 3D printed terrain.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: N.C.S.E on 12 March 2022, 11:15:33 AM
A great shame, for a while they led the market. But I'll admit I'm surprised.

Firms like Sarissa have been on their heels for a while with dead cheap postage increased range of products. 4Ground meanwhile haven't helped themselves with their extremely unhelpful website. 150 WW2 kits are nice and all - but I don't want to have to scroll through them all to maybe find XYZ thing.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: manic _miner on 12 March 2022, 12:50:19 PM
 I think Fred is right.3D printing will be having a very big impact on the MDF terrain makers.Also the miniatures companies will/are in the same boat.I can see this having a big impact on Reaper Bones range soon.

 A casualty of things to come.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Daeothar on 12 March 2022, 01:40:18 PM
I'm sure it's for real this time, but I remember the exact same news a couple of years ago. And I scrambled to get my hands on the one MDF kit I always wanted to have: the Stoic Arms Inn kit.

It still sits in its box, waiting for the day it'll be built...

But indeed; a sad day, because they have/had a lot of interesting products in their range for sure.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: tin shed gamer on 12 March 2022, 02:20:27 PM
I've always found them to be quite a mixed bag.With some truely lovely kits and some quite amateur looking ones. I think their pricing strategy hasn't helped either. The amount of people You here that have a 4ground product on a 'One day list' because of it's price.

I had like Daeothar the Stoic Arms, on my wish list. In the end I bought the Tudor Manor ,and The Coaching Inn,From Sarrisa and six rattle cans to paint it.Plus a Pub Carvery for four. For the same price as the Stoic Arms kit.(and still had change.)

I don't think 3D printing is sounding the death of mdf. Rather expanding a new genre. There are certain area's where  3D has a pricing advantage if you've a printer. However Unless  you've invested in a 3D printer then your purchasing choices aren't particularly swayed by  commercially printing models as they're often higher in price which isn't always a justification for an increased level of detail .When your hobby budget is limited.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Dags on 12 March 2022, 03:31:04 PM
All this has happened before. And all this will happen again.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 14 March 2022, 04:44:43 AM
Well they did have good product but after having been burned by them in their fabled realms Kickstarter not too sad after the amount of money they essentially stole from me and 400 others.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Harry Faversham on 14 March 2022, 06:23:00 AM
Good point that. We instantly forget a Company which sends our toys, complete and by return of post. But we never forget, or forgive, a shower wot slips us a crippler!

>:(
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 14 March 2022, 07:33:57 AM
Nah never was upset about vendors who might have sent late or had to be asked again and again about an order which eventually arrived I know that most of the hobby is made up of small companies that do their best for the most part.

However, a company that steals money (107,000 pounds) from 400 gamers. Then when some of those gamers request info from The Facebook site of 4 Ground are then blocked from that site.

Well you tell me is that acceptable because to me this is not and never will be.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: carlos marighela on 14 March 2022, 09:16:22 AM
Never really fancied their stuff. The main benefit of MDF is as a cheap(ish) shell, which you texture and paint yourself. Labour saving not having to cut windows, doors and faff around getting angles correct.

Expensive, pre-painted MDF just seems to defeat the purpose, at least for me anyway.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Poiter50 on 14 March 2022, 09:40:26 AM
I got my Fabled Realms stuff from a/the KS, lots of fences and a nice Roman tower. Late but what KS isn't? ???

Well they did have good product but after having been burned by them in their fabled realms Kickstarter not too sad after the amount of money they essentially stole from me and 400 others.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Anatoli on 14 March 2022, 09:50:06 AM
 :'( :'(
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Anatoli on 14 March 2022, 09:53:21 AM
Well they did have good product but after having been burned by them in their fabled realms Kickstarter not too sad after the amount of money they essentially stole from me and 400 others.
That is not something I knew  about :o
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Harry Faversham on 14 March 2022, 10:08:31 AM
Spot on about lobbing out for expensive MDF that then needs fettling! Cobbled up about 20 of these for a fiver's worth of cork tiles. Granted, they'll never win any prizes, but they're perfectly OK for wargaming with.

(https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=271570&d=1612178563)

(https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=271573&d=1612181062)

 :)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 14 March 2022, 10:19:22 AM
Hey Poiter50
Take a look at the Kickstater page and tell me where the roman tower was in it. Figures, rules, counters, play mat. That is what the kickstater was about the buildings where for the most part add-ons.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/250544710/the-legends-of-fabled-realms/description

The really sad part is that it was a really innovative and really fun set of rules, the figures where not that interesting mostly pretty average orcs, elves, medieval humans etc.  But the movement and interaction of the fighters was really interesting.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Daeothar on 14 March 2022, 10:57:08 AM
Hey Poiter50
Take a look at the Kickstater page and tell me where the roman tower was in it. Figures, rules, counters, play mat. That is what the kickstater was about the buildings where for the most part add-ons.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/250544710/the-legends-of-fabled-realms/description

The really sad part is that it was a really innovative and really fun set of rules, the figures where not that interesting mostly pretty average orcs, elves, medieval humans etc.  But the movement and interaction of the fighters was really interesting.

Do you know if the minis were ever released for general sale?

I've always liked several of the crusader/inquisition type faction minis...
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 14 March 2022, 11:51:00 AM
Nope the minis where not released, however they had literally hundreds done and showed pictures of them on the kickstater page.

Some of the backers are asking for stl files but I dont think those scumbags will do that nor will they give us some of the figures that we have paid for but hey thems the breaks.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Daeothar on 14 March 2022, 12:47:14 PM
That's a shame, because at this moment in time, those are the only items from theirs I'd be interested in... ;)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: manic _miner on 14 March 2022, 02:14:47 PM
 Looks like the KS was a total dud.I was wondering what had happened to the miniatures for this the other Week.

 A real shame for anyone who pledged to it.

 I can also see why they are asking for stl files and pdf's too.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 14 March 2022, 03:14:18 PM
Just had another thought for those of you thinking of ordering from 4Ground. I would be very wary of sending money to them knowing that they are closing their doors I would be afraid they would do the same thing as they did with the kickstater, just keep the money.

Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Grumpy Gnome on 15 March 2022, 06:51:22 AM
I was unaware of the Fabled Realms KS fiasco until now. I vaguely recalled the KS but was not interested in backing it at the time and promptly forgot about it. Reading about it now really disappoints me. I hate that kind of behavior.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: nozza_uk on 15 March 2022, 08:54:41 AM
Shame to hear of their problems, I wasn't aware of the Fabled Realms KS issues either.

If I buy a mdf kit, I wanted it to be prepainted as a time saver and there are cheaper alternatives to 4Ground like Warcradle & Antenocitis Workshop.

I've only ever bought 4Ground kits when they have either been on sale or discounted at shows. There's a lot of nice stuff on they're website, but even with the discounts my wallet is staying in my pocket.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Elbows on 15 March 2022, 04:25:53 PM
While I used to be a big 4Ground proponent (if you could put in the time to build them, as they were "too much" for a lot of simple gaming), I have been less than impressed as the years went on.  The KS debacle, the increase in 3rd party MDF, a new crappy website and...I don't know if it bears mentioning but over the past 8-9 years the prices on their kits went up substantially, almost double in some cases.

Kits I had previously purchased for $35-40 are now around $75-80...so it was a red flag to me that stuff was going poorly.  They also announced just recently (within a month of two) that they were going to do another price increase.

So a failed Kickstarter that never delivered to most (or any?) of its backers, a bankruptcy, and rapidly increasing prices - while competitors in the same market stayed at the same price more or less (TT Combat, Sarissa Precision, etc.) just leads me to think 4Ground was simply poor with business/business decisions.  I never like seeing a gaming company fail, but this seems more of their own doing than external forces.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Spinal Tap on 15 March 2022, 05:21:49 PM
With the current world situation regarding price increases across the board, businesses failing, unreliable shipping etc., perhaps we will see a renaissance of buying local for miniatures and DIY terrain.

From a global perspective being unable to buy high quality finished toys is a minor point.

I know it's lovely to purchase flash stuff (I'm as guilty as many others) but maybe we need to just enjoy the hobby, the creativity and the people it brings us into contact with a bit more than buying the next big thing.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: NotifyGrout on 15 March 2022, 06:05:38 PM
For minis? We're a long way off from all digital print-at-home. Bones and Wizkids pre-primed for D&D/Pathfinder are cheap, an easy way to support a local game store (especially in the US since we don't have the gaming club culture the UK has, lucky rassem frassem ;) ), and they're durable.

Once resin printers are cheaper, easier to operate, near-foolproof in printing, and have a completely odor-free resin, then maybe. Or if FDM printers can get as good at tiny bits as resin printers.

For terrain, we will start to see MDF makers close up shop unfortunately, unless they diversify into 3D printed products as well.

Outside of that, it'll be down to:
1) Boutique stuff like Dwarven Forge (especially since it can be bought pre-painted) for the rich nerds
2) Very inexpensively priced MDF like TTCombat and Warcradle (at their price points they are competitive, once you factor in materials and, more importantly, time)
3) 3D printed stuff
4) Of course, scratch-built at home, though even that will end up like film photography- more of an art form than a common practice
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on 15 March 2022, 06:42:17 PM
I remember their massive display for their miniature game at salute 2016 - I really liked the 40mm mock up minis they were using. Then the KS launched and it was all 28mm which seemed a bit like false advertising, given that they'd been using those big chunky sculpts in all the promo material.

Glad i steered clear in the end cus boy oh boy did it go poorly.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on 15 March 2022, 06:45:22 PM


Once resin printers are cheaper, easier to operate, near-foolproof in printing, and have a completely odor-free resin, then maybe. Or if FDM printers can get as good at tiny bits as resin printers.



On the resin front I'd say we're already there. A mars2 will set you back less than a low end laptop, and the water washable resin makes it very easy to process your finished prints. The software kicking around for slicing is all very basic and easy to learn, and there are so many sites to buy pre supported,pre sliced minis now. Actual printer set up is barely harder than with a laser printer.

I have one in my office and it's easier to run than a cricut machine - hell, i'd say it's easier to set up and run than most peoples phone.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: DeRuyter on 15 March 2022, 07:45:33 PM
On the resin front I'd say we're already there. A mars2 will set you back less than a low end laptop, and the water washable resin makes it very easy to process your finished prints. The software kicking around for slicing is all very basic and easy to learn, and there are so many sites to buy pre supported,pre sliced minis now. Actual printer set up is barely harder than with a laser printer.

I have one in my office and it's easier to run than a cricut machine - hell, i'd say it's easier to set up and run than most peoples phone.

On most points I agree with you. I have never understood the smell issue. I have been using Anycubic Eco resin and frankly the IPA smells far worse! Although it is a bit like adding a second hobby to support the first one.  lol  It is easy to get set up and hundreds of YT videos will show the way. However dialing in your settings is still a bit fiddley.

More and more files for historical gaming are becoming available, some by professional artists and some by other gamers, ranging from free to overpriced. No matter how much you pay for a file the advantage is you now have as many figures as you need. Need another 24 figure unit, fine 4 hours later it is ready to prime. I have not purchased a single physical mini since I got my printer last year (about 250USD for printer and wash&cure station). I have bought loads of files though and by doing so I am still supporting individual artists.

Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: NotifyGrout on 15 March 2022, 07:51:48 PM
On the resin front I'd say we're already there. A mars2 will set you back less than a low end laptop, and the water washable resin makes it very easy to process your finished prints. The software kicking around for slicing is all very basic and easy to learn, and there are so many sites to buy pre supported,pre sliced minis now. Actual printer set up is barely harder than with a laser printer.

I have one in my office and it's easier to run than a cricut machine - hell, i'd say it's easier to set up and run than most peoples phone.

From what I've seen, a $200 resin printer will print almost anything but the tiniest of details. It's not unaffordable to many already in the hobby, even if one buys and wash and cure station to make that part simpler.

The thing is that with a lot of new tech, there's still the tech phobia hurdle to scale. As the hobby gains more tech-savvy, younger people, I think we will shift towards it. It's not that they are actually hard to use (was expecting my FDA Anycubic i3 Mega Plus to be much harder than it was), it's the perception that they're fancy, newfangled tech that only nerds can operate.

As more store employees learn to use the technology, they'll start offering print-on-demand for those who cannot afford to buy their own printers, and that will be a huge help (there are a lot of online shops that already do it, but they range widely in price and quality).

I think the final step that will make it the norm will be Games Workshop selling STLs. If they get into it, their cult fans will follow, and then it will become the default.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: zemjw on 15 March 2022, 08:33:43 PM
I had been thinking about buying some stuff from 4Ground, but this thread has made me rethink those plans.

I dug out my old Citadel "How to make wargames terrain" book this afternoon (benefit of working from home). I can't say it will go any further for a while, but we'll see...

I also just got a £5 voucher from Sarissa because I haven't ordered from them in a while (November 2020 according to my records :o), so I may take advantage of that.

On the 3d printing side of things, I've never made decent use of my FDM printer, although I have printed a few things with it. A resin one would be nice for figures, but, as others have noted, it is pretty much its own hobby. My painting speed wouldn't justify the cost, especially with a lead mountain sitting there judging me all day.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: nozza_uk on 16 March 2022, 10:21:57 AM
I also just got a £5 voucher from Sarissa because I haven't ordered from them in a while (November 2020 according to my records :o), so I may take advantage of that.

I got that too. For me the £5 covered the price of the postage on my order.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: boneio on 16 March 2022, 10:42:35 AM
I resisted getting a resin printer for a long time (have had FDM for about a year) and having purchased a 2nd-hand one off a friend I've got to say, it's very easy. I previously was in the 'not really mass-market ready' camp and it *could* be easier but it's not far off plug and play. It's just smelly and messy. With presupported files, getting prints is very simple.

Quote
My painting speed wouldn't justify the cost, especially with a lead mountain sitting there judging me all day.

This is spot on! The value of my printer is excellent but I worry it's going to simply add more to my ridiculous lead mountain...but in resin!

More on topic I'm a little wary of buying from 4ground as well at this point. Someone I'm acquainted with went to work there and hasn't really said anything about the news publicly. Why were 4ground taking on new staff shortly before then folding? Why is electricity such a major cost that they now can't afford to continue?
It's a shame because I've got quite a lot of their kits including the stoic arms and the windmill, and they're very nice, and in my eyes easier than printing and painting. But the designer who did those is to my understanding long gone so there won't be more of them anyway...
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: mr ed on 16 March 2022, 12:16:24 PM
Why is electricity such a major cost that they now can't afford to continue?

Perhaps they spent all the kickstatrter money on bitcoin miners  ;)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Mammoth miniatures on 16 March 2022, 08:34:29 PM
Perhaps they spent all the kickstatrter money on bitcoin miners  ;)

Lasercutters use shedloads of power, and 3d printers on top of that mean they were probably using a fair bit of leccy every day.
One of the big things with their kickstarter was that they were going to 3d print EVERY miniatures - not print masters, just outright print them - I can only imagine how big the bill would have been had they every actually done that.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: carlos marighela on 16 March 2022, 09:57:57 PM
I’m not a kickstarter follower as a rule but I’m curious as to whether their ‘internal restructure’ a year or so back which saw nominal ownership change and caused a hiatus in production and sales pre-dated, post-dated or neatly coincided with their kickstarter woes.

Anyone know?

It all seems a bit Tony Reidy-ish to me.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: wkeyser on 17 March 2022, 05:18:06 AM
Hi Carlos
No it started way before that. 

I am just speculating but I think what happened was that they promised a weekend gaming with the beta rules and figures in Feb  2018 after the Kickstarter ended July 2017 so only a few months. They then had problems with plastic figures from China, then could not find a caster for resin figures for the November event so went to 3d printing. This is where the problems seem to have happened, they said that all was well and yes they where almost finished with printing all the figures but no pictures of these for years and finally they showed pictures of lots of figures but that was after months of silence.  Then I think they had problems with the other part of their company and our money probably ended up their and not in the kickstater.

The thing that pisses me off is that the game was great and really innovative, but instead of coming to their backers and saying they had problems and would like to work it out the just went silent.

Launched June 2017
Funded July 2017  (stole our money)
Weekend event with beta rules and figures for attendees Feb 2018
Delivery Sept 2018
Last update Oct 2020 then radio silence.

Not only silence but when a couple of the backers went on their facebook page and asked about the Kickstater they were blocked.

I think when I look back on it I remember an interview with the guys from 4 Ground on the Beasts of War web site. The game looked fantastic  but boy did they seem like complete scatter brains, but I thought ok there are a lot of eccentric characters in the hobby and we are better for them but obviously these guys had no idea of how to run a company.

So Karma is a bitch I hope they lose lots of money in their bankruptcy!  ok so just a little bitter and still pissed ;)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: carlos marighela on 17 March 2022, 06:18:53 AM
You miss the point about bankruptcy. You declare it to avoid losing a lot of money and being potentially held personally liable. It’s the creditors who take it up the jacksy.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: boneio on 17 March 2022, 10:54:47 AM
You miss the point about bankruptcy. You declare it to avoid losing a lot of money and being potentially held personally liable. It’s the creditors who take it up the jacksy.

Yup. And the last time something similar happened with 4ground they closed the trading entity, said they had "lost" access to their previous website (for which I read: failed to pay the suppliers), and opened up again as 4ground publishing.

Whether incompetence or deliberate business practice, it doesn't read very well and I've not purchased much if anything from them directly for a long time because I don't trust them.

I wouldn't be particularly surprised if, say, "5ground" appears shortly after 4ground closes its doors following the sale...
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: carlos marighela on 17 March 2022, 12:32:59 PM
I would have thought that by way of showing that the owners had a commitment to the business and their customer base, ‘skin in the game’ if you will, that their next corporate iteration would be as 4 Skin Models/ Publishing. The advertising tags just write themselves after that.  ;)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Cubs on 13 May 2022, 02:17:00 PM
Anyone struggling to get their orders from 4Ground or unwilling to take a chance, I've just noticed 'Firestorm Games' and 'Great Escape Games' are having major clearance sales of their 4Ground stock and presumably just about every other stockist will be doing the same.
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: Hitman on 15 May 2022, 12:00:29 AM
Still waiting for mine!!  :-[

Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: carlos marighela on 15 May 2022, 12:49:56 AM
Never mind even if it doesn’t arrive, all orders received put you into a draw to win the Brooklyn Bridge.  ;)
Title: Re: 4Ground going out business… and having a sale
Post by: LeadAsbestos on 15 May 2022, 01:07:07 AM
Ordered when I heard they were shutting down, got really good prices, and my stuff arrived stateside in 10 days or so? Flawless, really.