Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: Westbury on 29 March 2022, 07:19:56 PM
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Many years ago I gamed western gunfight in 54mm with the originators of 'The Old West Skirmish Rules' and then later at a local club where we set the various adventures in a fictional county. Time moved on, collection got sold, a couple of stuttering starts at doing it again but nothing. However the group has had a burst of enthusiasm for the period recently, figures have been painted, random buildings purchased, and various rule sets play tested; then our friend Jamie decided he was going to sell his complete 4Ground town so taking a leap of faith I bought it and we had our first game on the streets of Mal Paso.
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The basic scenario was, two local ranchers, Old Man Gordon and John Murdoch have been feuding over water rights and on a fateful day both were in the county seat with some of their hands; words were said, guns were drawn.......
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Murdoch kicked it off, challenging Gordon and opening fire.
In typical wargaming fashion the players sent their characters scuttling down side alleys or heading for cover on the street.
Murdoch, Blue Johnson & noted gunfighter Cherry Valance stood their ground on main street while Irish Bob took up a position with his rifle & Juan Nogales sneeked off with his shotgun.
Old Man Gordon, his brother John and son Matt exchanged shots on main street while Cookey took cover by the hotel with his rifle and the gunfighter Billy Cody ran off down the side streets.
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There was some deadly shooting, some appalling shooting and some comedy moments.
Noted gunfighter Cherry Valance lost his nerve at the first near miss (Pinned) and never got back into the fight, the other gunfighter, Billy Cody was blasted in the back by Nogales and died instantly - Nogales later snuck up on Matt Gordon and badly wounded him with two shotgun blasts.
On main street, John Gordon was wounded and Cookey ran away and it was looking good for the Murdoch clan but then stupidity set in. Aroused by the gunfire Sheriff Will Rogers & Deputy Ernie Jones ran out on the street to fire a warning shot and order everyone to throw down their guns, but not the Murdoch's, they decide to open fire on the law! In the ensuing gun battle, at fairly close range, Murdoch and Blue Johnson were both killed and Irish Bob and Deputy Jones wounded.
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So, the Murdoch ranch is up for sale - no known relatives and Old Man Gordon is thinking he might be expanding his range; just this one small game and there is already a possible follow on.
Rules were Fistful of Lead, being the 5th set we've trialled, final decision yet to be made.
Stay tuned :)
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Nice to see a good shoot-out, also nice to see Jamie's wonderful
work staying locally. Jamie's valiant work on updating my old map
of Dardenell County should be with you by now Ian.
Are we going to see a rebirth of your Newspaper?
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Cheers Pete.
Yep Jamie and I came to a mutually agreeable sale price - now I need to start getting rid of some of the buildings we already had lol
It would be fun to do the newspaper again but I'm not sure I want to get to grips with Microsoft Publisher :?
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It would be fun to do the newspaper again but I'm not sure I want to get to grips with Microsoft Publisher :?
Rather than a whole edition, how about the odd article.
Done in the style of one that has been cut out of the paper.
Clippings?
Could be used to 'set the scene' as well as to briefly mention
the highlight(s) of the action.
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Another game from the county and the final one in our 'choose a set of rules, damm you!'
In this one, local personality, Willian van Hee is held in the Rummy Town jail, victim of a frame up say his crew (busy getting fired up in the local saloon), brought to justice for land swindling say the local town committee. Whatever the truth, the mood is getting ugly at the saloon so Sheriff Pete Noonan & Deputy Rance Edwards head out across the street leaving citizen George Duffy guarding the prisoner. On the boardwalk of the saloon, Bill Sykes shouted over his shoulder to Pete Sanchez, Curtis Bailey & Bronco Lane and then headed out into the street with 'Fast' Billy Clint, both drawing their guns. Death was coming to Rummy Town.
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In the opening seconds it seemed like the lawmen had a plan ;) Deputy Edwards raced off down a side street and around the back of the general store while Noonan faced down Clint and Sykes who had now been joined by Sanchez and Bailey. In the initial crash of gunfire Noonan put a bullet in Sykes and was himself nicked in the left arm, everyone else missed >:(
Noonan now knelt in the street and in the next round of fire Sanchez took a light wound. This coolness under fire rather unnerved the van Hee boys so Sanchez and Bailey sprinted along the boardwalk heading for the cover of the bank while Billy ran across the street heading for the store, Sykes stood his ground.
In another round of gunfire Noonan had his left arm shattered and fell back but given he had 3 men shooting at him (Bailey was heading up the bank staircase) this wasn't too bad :-X
Then the law's plan unfolded; Deputy Edwards came round the corner of the store behind the shooters and fired 1 barrel of his shotgun at Billy, the shot just missed but an unnerved Billy dived for cover and lay trembling. Realising the danger, Sykes whirled and opened fire on Edwards, wounding him, but Edwards put Sykes in the ground with the 2nd blast of the shotgun.
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Now it was getting desperate.
From the balcony of the bank, Bailey put a bullet into Noonan's chest and a triumphant Sanchez stood over the bleeding lawman ready to finish him when, boom! George Duffy put a shotgun blast into the van Hee man and he collapsed to the dirt.
The fight was far from over though, Edwards had now dropped his shotgun and drawing his pistol shattered Billy's gun hand with one shot and the boy fled screaming, Duffy continued his civic duty by blasting Bailey who collapsed out of the fight but from the top storey of the saloon Bronco Lane put a bullet into the glass above Duffy's head and he sought cover. The lawmen now focused on Lane who after a brief exchange of shots decided his boss would have to serve out his time and fled the scene.
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And that was it.
Sheriff Noonan had entered Cole Younger territory, hit 4 times he was still alive but retirement was now his only option, looks like there's going to be a new Sheriff in town :) Speaking of which, Deputy Edwards took a couple of light wounds but a few days of recovery and he would be back on the streets.
In terms of fitness, the van Hee crew were definitely unfit; Bill Sykes was dead, Pete Sanchez was unlikely to recover from his, Curtis Bailey would recover in time but his hard man days were over, and Billy Clint would never be the gunman he dreamed of being; as for Bronco Lane, he was last seen heading east on a fast horse.
We had a great time, plenty of lead flew, characters got to act as you suppose they would and there were no annoying distractions.
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Great looking game! Thank you for sharing!
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All well and good (or not so good for some) with the second game. But! You didn't tell us which rules you used for the second game - was it FFoL again or something else?
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All well and good (or not so good for some) with the second game. But! You didn't tell us which rules you used for the second game - was it FFoL again or something else?
My sentiments exactly! Have you declared a winner in the "Which rules to use" sweepstakes?
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Oh yeah, which rules won lol
Final choice was very retro, went for the the Skirmish Wargames Group, Old West Skirmish Rules. Despite opinions to the contrary, they don't play any slower than any other sets really, there is less of the extreme randomness other sets give, I don't really like cards and, importantly, they have a sense of realism which most other sets lack.
I recognise that there is a large following for sets like, FFoL, Dead Mans Hand, Gunfighters Ball, etc but on this occasion old school won :)
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Very good then. Carry on, lad!
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Excellent little town,sounds like a brilliant game too :-*
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Just did a google check and if I found the right rules - at 226 pages! - no freaking way on green, brown, or purple earth, demon or deity in charge. Quick and simple for my tastes - which means FFOL but probably the Bigger Battles variation. But to each their own.
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Fifteens.
Just checked my copy, 54 pages, and that includes the extra's for horses, counting coup, smashing windows, etc. Have you looked at some kind of compendium edition?
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I’d also recommend Fistful of Lead. It works great for 5 to 10 figures per player. I feel like using cards fits the old west theme.
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Probably not the right rules then.
I get not liking cards, they can interfere with the visual element of a game - which matters to me a lot - but FFOL just seems to work better than other games and people like to play them.
I do have a pet peeve with them, however, and that is so many games are multi-sided free-for-alls - which really isn't a rule problem but a game master problem. I get it, just a fun game. But very little if any grounding in history. I'd much rather see games - and plan to run such - where the multiple players are on one side or the other, as in only two sides, and heavily penalized for shooting at their own side (but legitimate mix ups should be allowed as long as there are still consequences). I actually think such games can be just as much fun and ultimately a lot more satisfying experience.
Doesn't have to be strictly historical - that would be very limiting given how few real gun fights and gun battles there actually were in a relative sense. And can absolutely go the Lark-Side and take something broadly historical and add in fun, even silly elements. (Lark-Side is my 'word' for such games, as opposed to the Dark Side.). The Lark-Side lends itself well to what is probably a major inspiration for many of us - movies. Also, the Lark-Side doesn't mean going nuts with the rules, the game is still pretty straight forward but elements added to keep it from being taken too seriously, like say having a sheriff by the name of Quiet Burp, that sort of harmless silliness. One of my ultimate goals is to recreate Hallelujah Trail (which does provide an excuse for too many sides in a game! :o).
Heck, to that end, I just primed up yesterday an Oracle Jones base with the gentleman laid out on a table with one whiskey bottle on its side and another waiting to be drained with a couple of others seated nearby, probably Clayton Howell and maybe Rafe Pike. Also primed up a 'unit' of temperance marchers and three units of the Denver Free Militia. Hard to find the right figure for Cora Templeton Massingale in 15 mm, darn it! I don't have a cavalry band but I do have a couple of Civil War bands I can press into service, plenty of cavalry though and a fort and various and sundry denizens.
"Ah, now I see it!" Oracle is probably my favorite Donald Pleasance role. Now, back to 'work' - more units to prime!
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I can recommend Ruthless - for a free set of fast play rules that is 2 pages in total.
http://www.fireballforward.com/ruthless.html
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If it's just the fun/playing with toy soldiers element you are wanting then FFOL does the job admirably - some of the guys we game with on an occasional basis love them and that's fine but the complete randomness of it all and the 'bang you're dead' side of it can grate after a while.
Cards generally and umpteen markers absolutely spoil the visuals, Dead Man's Hand is an ok game but the visuals is pants due to the cards and markers.
A grounding in history is my start point and if a game gives a sense of , 'yeah, that seems about right' then I'm on board, it doesn't have to especially complicated.
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I'm another vote for FfoL or FfoL:BB. We've used them for several genres, and we like them. And we don't put our cards on the playing field. Not big fans of much clutter, either.
As for historocity, They work for us. It's the feel and outcomes by which we judge rules, and in our experience, FfoL can be suited to fit nigh about anything...
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Very nice!
What is the mat you use? Size and material? Cheers
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We've got several but usually a Geek Villain fleece one.
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Great looking games andcitvsounds like much fungal been had!
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A question for this but also for other rules vs rules comparisons.
How do you account for the differences in dice rolls in different games? In game A, Evil Roy Slade rolls 2D6 and gets 9 for movement and gets to cover while in game B his 2D6 is only 3 which would leave him in the open. If you do the same move, he could well get shot down. If you move him differently, it is no longer a direct comparison. Extend that problem across all the turns of all the characters, it MIGHT average out. Or it might not. So it would seem that deciding that the rules in either game as being the better of the two might be the result of better dice rolling than rather than the quality of the rules, no?
Now, instead of a one vs one comparison, you try to do this to decide among Fistful of Lead, TRWNN, Dead Mans Hand, Desperado, Gutshot, and three or four others. Can a real meaningful comparison be done?
Or do you do two at a time with the same scenario run multiple numbers of times so the different rolls average out?
Or are the choices of who to match against who rule-wise a factor as well? Like in sports where the respective matchups are such that Team A routinely beats Team B who routinely beats Team C who routinely beats Team A?
Just curious what people thought about this.
I can see having a preference for one set of rules over another based on preferences of the mechanics, the level of granularity, the ease of play, and a number of other factors, but that is more subjective. Do you prefer character types that have respective advantages and disadvantages? Or the ability for the character to become skilled in different things? I don't think either is "better" just a different feel to them. Same with the extent of control you have over your character(s). I've seen some where you have absolute control. Some where you can try anything but have to roll form level of success. Some where you can only do what a drawn card's suit allows you to do - such as move on a drawn heart, shoot on a spade, etc. Combat where it is points off of your total hits, or points off specific locations. With all of this, my choices may well not match yours but I don't think any are inherently better.
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A question for this but also for other rules vs rules comparisons.
First. War is an art form & not a science. During the D-Day celebrations a Veteran
said, 'Don't call me a Hero, all the Heroes are dead, I was just lucky. I'm still here'
Second. Over the years I have found that wargamers fall into (mainly) one of two
groups. 1) Like painting toy soldiers & will use simple/familiar/fun rules so that they
can play with their toys.
2) Want to recreate History/War. These will force themselves to paint miniatures,
or pay someone else to do so, to enable them to try out/use/amend the rules.
Group 1) will be quite happy to try & run across the open ground under fire, as long as
there is 'a chance' that it might just work. A friend wrote a set of rules & in that the
absolute worst chance of hitting the target was 3%. I asked him why & he said that if
he reduced it to zero there were always enormous arguments that ruined the game.
At 3% players would normally miss, & the game went on. If they hit, everyone (even
the target player) said, 'Lucky Bast***!' & got on with the game.
Group 2) Are prepared to play the same scenario many times with different rules.
Compare the result with history & amend the rule until they are happy it IS as close
to what they think it should be.
Whilst I admire those in group '2)' I, myself, am definitely in group '1)' :D
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Deep questions from terrement :)
The first paragraph encapsulates my personal frustration with that kind of rule mechanism. I acknowledge that Evil Roy Slade probably wouldn't move at exactly the same pace all the time but the wild diversity given by rolling 2D6 (or any other variant) just turns the duel of wits between players into a 'game' of pure chance - I may as well pick a card from a random pack and that is how far Roy moves. The same argument applies to the use of just dice for shooting, melee or morale, everything becomes a chance result and for me this becomes boring pretty quickly. I absolutely acknowledge that for others it's what gaming is all about and that's fine as long as they don't dress it up as 'friction' or some other made up distinction.
In terms of running comparative games to judge a variety of rule sets within a given historical framework, life is too short :-I If you've been gaming for a while you pretty quickly realise whether a rule set suits your preferred style of play or not and you don't need to create a mental spreadsheet :) If we take the recent process we went through, we played 2 games of Dead Mans Hand and, although it could certainly be seen as 'fun', it wasn't for us.
To close, I don't think I have ever claimed that my choice of rules is better than someone else's, I might think the rules I choose (or write) are a better representation of an historical time frame but of course that is just what I think, nothing more.
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We've got several but usually a Geek Villain fleece one.
Thanks, that one keeps being mentioned...
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My favourite cloths are from Cigar Box Battles in the US which North Star used to import on an order only basis but I'm not sure they do anymore.