Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: Ignatieff on 11 October 2009, 12:24:23 PM
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Arrived yesterday, and a good read and overview it is. it covers Czech inolvement on all fronts. Illustrations are also of good quality. However like all Ospreys it is infuriatingly lacking in some details. For instance, how were the 70,000 Czechs in the RCW organised? There are numerous references to various units, but no clear orbat. Does anyone know how their organisation developed over 1918-20?
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As far as I know, they were organized in 2 divisions of 6 regiments.
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yup, I was a bit disappointed too, especially because the fighting is covered only anecdotically.
If You read it carefully and make notes, You will get an orbat and also the development - but it is stretched over the whole "book"
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For very good informations about the fighting done by the Legion, you can read the "Lost Legion" pdf book on the pygmy wars website ;)
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has anyone seen the documentary about the Legion?
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You mean 'Accidental Army' (with a 'message from Madeline Albright' lol lol lol)?? Just been sent it by a mate in Virginia. Will be watching it at the weekend after our latest leadfest....
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yeah, right
thought about buying it myself
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Initial reports from my normally reliable mate in Virginia is that its 'nice pictures and poor history' let me have a look and report back. To be honest I'd be happy with this!
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how authentic is the content of the Osprey book analyzed to be?
I would be curious to know. Anyway, be the sources referenced it can't be that wrong.
I will try to make a Czechoslovak Orbat over the weekend.
Another aspect involving the Western Czechoslovak troops I never before encountered is the war between the "Little Entente" and the Hungarian Soviet Republic - not exactly part of RCW but somehow connected to it, like the Russo-Polish war. From this quite elaborate account:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian%E2%80%93Romanian_War_of_1919 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian%E2%80%93Romanian_War_of_1919)
a very interesting campaign.
Historically it links up with the CS troops leaving Italy and France after the armistice of November 1918.
In termy of wargaming it is Hungarians in AH uniform and Romanians in french uniforms.
Cavalry, armoured trains, manouvre war etc.
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Fascinating, this period just keeps getting better! Anyway, off to pick up Westfalia Chris from Peterborough station for his first induction to life in 'The League of Extraordinary Kriegspielers'!
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Fascinating, this period just keeps getting better! Anyway, off to pick up Westfalia Chris from Peterborough station for his first induction to life in 'The League of Extraordinary Kriegspielers'!
You do guided tours?! Chris, who did you have to, well you know the saying, to get a back stage pass *there*? ;)
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You do guided tours?! Chris, who did you have to, well you know the saying, to get a back stage pass *there*? ;)
No one deserves to spend as long in Hull as poor Chris has, despite the brave face he puts on it. Ask him about the DH10 and the barge full of Bolshevik sailors!
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They had this in Waterstones Truro, nearly bought it too, but spent the dollar elsewhere hoping they'd still have it in next week. Is it worth the coin then? Typicaly the CL is something I know little of but since getting the figs last year or whenever from Copplestone, I've just started them as a-typical RCW Whites. May have to dip and strip the buggers....
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OK, since the thread is already diverted, I'll push a bit back on track:
while searching for the second Czech armoured train "UDERNIK", I stumbled over this forum in polish:
http://www.ioh.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164514
apart from many pictures of ORLIK new to me and the usual improvised armoured trains, there are many pictures of "railway art", the Czechs used to decorate their waggons with.
Very interesting - just scroll down
btw - anyone heard anything about UDERNIK ? found nothing apart the opening note in the Osprey book
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Absolutely cracking source former user :o Superb! I must figure out a way of painting (or more likely printing) these types of pictures onto the side of my Company B armoured train. Anyone got any hints or tips???
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pleasure to be of use ;)
I recall some kind of system for making decals of Your own, but it's so long ago that I completely forgot how it worked .... >:( :-[
and for Czech speaking people there is the Movie "Zborov", a 1938 propaganda about the soon to be Legion Czech Brigade's involvement in the Brussilov Offensive (translation appreciated ;)):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-kDZlcAHbk&feature=PlayList&p=413FAB2B5EA6B554&index=0
battle scenes start around part 06 ;)
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Please, I would like to read oppinions about Renegade's early WWI french chasseur miniatures to be used as Czechoslovak legionnaries in the "vladivostok" uniform?? And also the dragoons from the same range standing in for the czech cavalry regiments
(http://www.renegademiniatures.com/images/figures/frcavp01.jpg)
of course in the appropriate colour
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former user
I dont have my Osprey in front of me, but from memory the cavalry had low cossack style hats with a small stiff plume at the front. If I am correct, then Copplestone BoB Russian cavalry figures with a small conversion on the hat would be better.
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maybe
how about the infantry?
cutting of the brim and glueing some felt replacement for 10 figures or so seems more simpler to me...
I was more concerned with the uniform, since the "vladivostok" one looks pretty french in cut and I prefer the czechs to look more western with all these russian uniforms around
that was the idea
so what do You think?
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maybe
how about the infantry?
cutting of the brim and glueing some felt replacement for 10 figures or so seems more simpler to me...
I was more concerned with the uniform, since the "vladivostok" one looks pretty french in cut and I prefer the czechs to look more western with all these russian uniforms around
that was the idea
so what do You think?
Know what you mean. Don't know as I am in Switzerland at the moment and nowhere near my library. Will be reunited next week.
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just fine, we are not on the run
don't break Your leg ;)
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Know what you mean. Don't know as I am in Switzerland at the moment and nowhere near my library. Will be reunited next week.
So am I. Where are you at, Ignatieff? Got time for a tot?
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So am I. Where are you at, Ignatieff? Got time for a tot?
Villars sur Ollon (Vaud). Till Tuesday. Where you?
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On the other side of Lake Geneva. In the Jura mtns, not far from Gland. Here till Sunday.
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nearly died crossing the Jura two years ago at Easter, has bad memories for me :-[ 'Gland' always makes me smile though lol Next time!!!
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nearly died crossing the Jura two years ago at Easter, has bad memories for me :-[ 'Gland' always makes me smile though lol Next time!!!
Aye, 'tis lawless country over here. 'Rolle' and 'Bulle' provokes a gentle giggle among Swedes to. Yes, next time. Would have had trouble AWOLing myself from the family. Col. fivers lead a foray towards Gruyere today, scouring the land for cheese, that's about as close as we got to your end. Bonne fin d'année!
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And to you my friend! Send me a PM next time you are heading down these parts. Easter and summer are my next most likely sojourns. (You can tell its Christmas, we havent been 'shut down' yet!!)
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the cavalry had low cossack style hats with a small stiff plume at the front. If I am correct, then Copplestone BoB Russian cavalry figures with a small conversion on the hat would be better.
I'll throw in an alibi "on topic" ;)
the Copplestone Russian cavalry has either papakha's, which are sort of flattening transversally towards the top, or kubankas/kolchakovkas, which are rather small
(http://www.copplestonecastings.co.uk/images/bu15.jpg)
the czech cavalry had cylindrical hats that widen towards the top and have this distinctive cut in the front and the plume
so, in converting BOB cavalry, I would have to do probably more work than simply pasting some "fur" to the french chakkos, and cutting of the brim - that was my idea
of course BOB cavalry is just fine as it is for Czechs
oh yes, would anyone care to do a "renegade christmas deal" for me? I'm afraid the 30% postage would eat up the price reduction...
btw, were you climbing 2 years ago in the Jura or "just hiking" ? only in case You want to share such an experience of course...
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Good man. I think your right on the hats after all. The pants were fuller as well, almost jodhpur like. Maybe Mr C will issue some to go with his Czech infantry?
Ignatieff
(Jura - driving en famille in a blizzard, and the Swiss hadnt cleared or gritted the road - unlike on the French side. And let me assure you, there is nothing more invigorating than a 2 ton X5 spinning on a narrow mountain road with a sheer drop on the other side!!)
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damn it!
such things one would normally not expect from the swiss
lucky You and Your family :-*
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Good man. I think your right on the hats after all. The pants were fuller as well, almost jodhpur like. Maybe Mr C will issue some to go with his Czech infantry?
I think Copplestone's interest is the early period Czechs. So no cavalry. His Russian stuff will cover the small mounted scout portions of the infantry.
My only picture of late period Czech cavalry has those hats, but shows them as lancers.
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which is not surprising
did You intend to post any pictures or were You referring to the hats I described? (from Osprey)
I wouldn't see it that canonical
apart from the uniform change from tsarist to Kolchak army to the japan-made Vladivostok uniform, I would see the evolution from the 3 regiments to the 3 division more organic.
I don't see the Chechoslovak forces fighting as a regular army - they were always split up into batallions (as would fit on one train). There seem to have always been reserve/training units that became regiments upon receiving the colours. Same with the cavalry - hardly possible to move an entire cavalry regiment by train in combat conditions, so even designed as regiments under corps control, they must have been split up into desantniy sections for railway recon.
Also same with the artillery, that was later reorganized to suit 3 divisions.
I would even presume that the Bolsheviks copied a lot of succesful railway warfare tactics from the Czechs, as they copied cavalry tactics from the Whites/Cossacks.
A shame the Osprey book does not reveal the corps controlled units, like aircraft, AC and the armoured trains, for instance the second one and the improvised ones. This would give the wargamer more opportunities (they even had a "navy", a steamer on lake Baikal).
As with representing them on the battlefield - same with the Whites and Bolsheviks - one can hardly afford to have all the uniform changes. I therefore would opt for distinctive miniatures from the start instead of limiting to one period, which is also hard to achieve since the uniforms changed at different times for the different forces.
as always, IMHO
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I think Copplestone's interest is the early period Czechs. So no cavalry. His Russian stuff will cover the small mounted scout portions of the infantry.
My only picture of late period Czech cavalry has those hats, but shows them as lancers.
Mark
Would love to see the picture
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(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2597/4221159273_e062610181_o.jpg)
I always struggle to get pictures up here. I hope this has worked.
I therefore would opt for distinctive miniatures from the start instead of limiting to one period, which is also hard to achieve since the uniforms changed at different times for the different forces.
We all have to do that, more or less, or we would never get any gaming done.
hardly possible to move an entire cavalry regiment by train in combat conditions, so even designed as regiments under corps control, they must have been split up into desantniy sections for railway recon
I not so sure about the "must" in there. My understanding, and I accept it is limited, is that the cavalry were kept as a whole regiment. For most of the retreat they weren't under combat conditions, so moving by train was no issue. Once the Reds caught them and started fighting they had to mostly go on foot as their trains were captured.
For scouting the regiments had their own mounted sections, in normal uniforms.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4221200531_0f31a2ae17_o.jpg)
I have no idea where I got these pictures from, sorry.
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I not so sure about the "must" in there. My understanding, and I accept it is limited, is that the cavalry were kept as a whole regiment. For most of the retreat they weren't under combat conditions, so moving by train was no issue. Once the Reds caught them and started fighting they had to mostly go on foot as their trains were captured.
For scouting the regiments had their own mounted sections, in normal uniforms.
the pictures are interesting, thx
from what I read, the recon cavalry was combined into the regiments, but my source might be wrong.
Of course for transport only whole regiments wouldn't be a problem, but then what would be the point if they were confined to railways anyway.
I read the detailed account from Your HP, and what I understood was that after the initial gathering and the conquest of the transsiberian, railroad travel wasn't a basic problem anymore. There were these limited engagements when they had to fight large numbers of organized Bolsheviks in 1919, and for that only cavalry regiments would have made sense.
From my understanding, after the defeat of Kolchak and the allied Cossacks (who would have provided enough cavalry for large engagements) the own cavalry regiments might have become a necessity and it goes well with the date of their installation.
Anyway, the first picture is from paradeground (maybe from the founding of the regiments?), and I would expect any cavalry to look more like on the second picture on campaign whether these are integrated recon or independent regiment.
however, all is only educated guess without sources, so I would rather trust Your understanding.
more reason to use the french dragoons anyway ;)
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Great pics Mark, many thanks. Re the figures, I would concentrate on head swaps former user. The uniforms look very Russian apart from the headgear.
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This is not a subject where I trust me, former user! I try to read what I can, but information on the Czechs is mighty scarce.
A couple more photos, taken from eBay postings. Therefore it is hard to vouch for them as authentic. The first claims to be scouts of the 7th Regiment (with an American), so more mounted infantry than true cavalry. They seem to be wearing the sort of hats shown afterwards, but it is hard to tell.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4222618759_6442ab6cbf_o.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4022/4223383642_43d83234f5_o.jpg)
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closer to a french kepi than anything I know
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here
(http://forum.axishistory.com/download/file.php?id=119417)
@argsilverson gave me that link, after the description it could be very well UDERNIK, at least it looks very much like the Zaamuretz by concept and I've never seen this type before
thx Kyrie :)