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Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Grumpy Gnome on July 27, 2022, 10:26:57 AM
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Has anyone here ever seen a photo of a Lewis Gun in use by French forces in post WW2 Indochina?
I am thinking the term “Lewis Gun” may have been commonly used during the period for many other magazine fed automatic rifle caliber weapons… but I could easily be wrong.
Documentation regarding French forces in Indochina that I have come across online have the term Lewis Gun cropping up a lot more than I expected but I have yet to see a photo of one in use there.
From this great resource…
http://1project2far.blogspot.com/p/indochina-war-ressources.html
Specifically…
4. AD804375 - Item 6. Lessons to be Drawn from the War in Indo-China. Covers logisitics, vehicles and armament with an assessment of their qualities and drawbacks. Probably the most interesting of the lot.
Pages 65, 65A, 84 and 115 mention Lewis Guns. The last one regarding using leg bags when parachuting with them.
The above document also mentions Hanomag Half-Tracks. I have seen photos of what look like German half-tracks in Indochina, including one next to a universal carrier. And yet French Panthers do not appear to be sent despite a number of them in French use in Europe until 1949. And other than the Hanomags so far I see no record of other German vehicles in use in Indochina, ie surprisingly no German armored cars.
There is also an interesting reference to in-Theater modification to some vehicles to counter mines, specifically mine carpets inside some vehicles. These being rubber and sand fabrications.
Also, a 1949 French ammunition document from Saigon… see photos. Quite a surprising array of ammunition calibers and it helps corroborate German as well as Italian weapon usage by French forces, although that could be to arm local auxiliary troops I suppose.
I wonder how distribution of individual arms went. Was it a case of mixing different weapons within the same squad, platoon, company or having uniform issue to units but each unit of whatever size being different. And if so, at what level?
Without further info I think I will continue to kitbash an eclectic mix of small arms with my current fictional post WW2 French Foreign Legion platoon even if it is a bit Hollywood. I can see a unit armorer offering a motley choice of available weapons from an armsroom full of leftovers, with Legionnaires often choosing weapons they are familiar with from their life before the Legion. Maybe not practical but nice narrative aspect.
Does anyone have more information on these things?
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Hi,
Not come across the Lewis gun being used although not unlikely given the state of the French forces in the immediate post war period.
No Panthers sadly its an urban myth.
some Hanomag 251's were used. From memory I think they were not the German version but something like Hungarian. Although looked pretty similar and were up armoured in theatre so usually looked 'unique'.
Most of the vehicles used were ex WW2 so worn out and from several nations including the UK and US. However the US banned equipment that was issued to the French NATO army from being sent to Indochina so the theatre became the poor cousin of the French post WW2 military. This changed in 1950 following communist success and the developing theory of the dominoes effect.
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Thanks for the reply Paul. I have to say I have some Empress Indochina miniatures and they are great. I am happy to recommend them to others and look forward to getting some more. Do you anticipate doing any non-airborne French Union forces?
Do you mean the “pink Panther” of Indochina is an urban myth (my guess is that it was a rusting US tank destroyer) or that that the French had Panthers in service in Europe until 1949/1950?
Because it was my understanding that the French 503eme RCC and 6th Cuirassiers had some.
https://www.quora.com/What-was-the-service-history-of-the-rebuilt-Panthers-the-French-army-used-immediately-after-World-War-II-Did-the-experience-have-any-effect-on-French-tank-design-or-armored-doctrine
https://community.battlefront.com/topic/97096-panthers-in-french-service/
My understanding is that France considered sending Panthers to Indochina when they thought China would give tanks Viet Minh but that Panthers were not considered suitable for the climate or terrain and that they made poor strategic tanks due to high maintenance requirements as well as unreliability despite its excellent main gun and optics.
The in-Theater modifications and ad hoc piecemeal equipment issue of the French Union forces is part of what draws my interest to this conflict.
The following document from the website I linked previously is a fascinating document once you wade through it to the good bits. Particularly the bits about vehicles used and in-Theater modifications.
https://download1587.mediafire.com/5f8swmbcmrbg/pdlbp07x757ni1f/AD804375.pdf
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The Japanese manufactured a copy of the Lewis, the Type 92, in both ground and air mounts. It’s just possible they were in the inventory of the Japanese occupation forces, captured at the end of the war.
The French had their own drum mounted MG in 7.5mm, the Reibel, AKA the MAC mle 31. Drum was mounted vertically on the side of the receiver so quite a different look to the Lewis but to the untrained observer……
This was the principal French tank MG before the war as well as being a fortification mount. These saw plenty of use in Indochina and on both sides, see below.
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The Lewis listing on that ammunition document does say 7.7 so I was thinking it might refer to a Japanese Lewis but was wondering what others thought.
It seems strange to see Lewis Gun mentioned in those two different sources but no photos of any. That is why I am thinking it may refer instead to a nickname for a class of weapon, including weapons such as the Bren and BAR, rather than just the specific WW1 Lewis Gun.
But then I have not seen a photo of French Union forces with a German MP44 either but that document suggests the ammunition was stockpiled for French Union use.
Edit: I stand corrected on the MP44
https://twitter.com/stg44geek/status/1156749497751547904
https://www.passionmilitaria.com/t85467-stg44-guerre-d-indochine
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The suggestion of the Japanese Lewis is a logical one.
Steven Zaloga states that the Panther in Indochina was a myth and the photograph you show I think has been debunked as either not a Panther (which the tracks look like to me ) or not in Indochina which is more logical given the uniforms in the picture. The French did have some for home service for a while but I think sold on as spare parts etc were an issue.
They did use some Japanese tanks for a while which seem fun for an early French force.
Empress has the MAC mle 31 cast and ready to add to some vehicles soon. So yes we do plan on doing non para troops including colonial types. ;)
The German MP44 did feature as did the MG34 and MP40 in small numbers. All also pop up with the VC and NVA later on in the 60's
Weapons flowed into the area from lots of places and despite the US refusing to supply weapons to the theatre in the early stages of the conflict they did supply them to China in a rather naïve belief that it would keep China onside. For example the US supplied 75mm pack howitzers to the Chinese who gave them to the Vietminh but the French did not have any. All very confusing as it illustrates the illogical possibilities of weapons and kit. ;)
It really is a fascinating messed up post war Colonial period and Indochina gets confusing as it does not conform to the European French military or the Algerian one for that matter who for example had the Garand but this never featured with French troops in Indochina. :?
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The suggestion of the Japanese Lewis is a logical one...
"ALL" and "JAP" at the beginning of the page would suggest that’s a list of ex-German and ex-Japanese weapons used (by the French or the Vietnamese?) in Indochina. From what I can see, the second photo mention a Lewis MG mounted on a tank with 3 bans of 240 bullets for ammo.
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Ah, sorry Paul we must have crossed wires. I never suggested the Panthers got to Indochina only that these were in post WW2 European service and had been considered for Indochina service. So they make an interesting “What If…” item. Especially if the Viet Minh get “What if… ” tank assistance.
I have been wondering why I had not seen photos of French Union troops in Indochina with Garands.
It is nice to be able to kitbash all my odds and ends WW2 bits together for French Union troops as well as the Empress minis.
@calimero Good spot, thanks! I was thinking those 6.5 weapons were Italian but they could have come to French service via German service first. And that helps explain the lack of British ammunition entries.
This research by the way brought me to a decent blog post on M24 Chaffees (and other vehicles) in Indochina…
https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/35472213/posts/3897547501
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Found these links, I don't know if it can help.
https://www.monsieur-legionnaire.org/images/Les-armes-de-la-LegioneEtrangere-de%201939-a-1979.pdf
https://www.overlord.fr/post-1945/5841-les-armes-de-la-guerre-d-indochine-1945-1954.html
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Found these links, I don't know if it can help.
https://www.monsieur-legionnaire.org/images/Les-armes-de-la-LegioneEtrangere-de%201939-a-1979.pdf
https://www.overlord.fr/post-1945/5841-les-armes-de-la-guerre-d-indochine-1945-1954.html
Every little bit helps. I appreciate folks taking the time.
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Every little bit helps.
The only things I'm rather sure of (because, why would they have lied to me?) is that when my grandfather worked as a civilian radio at Saïgon (Tan Son Nhut) airport, and my mother (who was twenty so it was c. 1951-52) went there to stay with her parents for one year, there were jeeps all around for transport when needed, and my grandfather did put a metal net to the windows to avoid someone throwing a grenade in the house.
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Didn't the French use the Chaffee in quantity later on, once the US softened its attitude towards supporting the French in Indochina?
Lots of pictures and even some model kits of the Chaffee are for a dedicated Indochina service version.
(https://preview.redd.it/lfycoa1kbtv51.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=9ed75ee54a324190b5fdf4a2ceba79363aef64f9)
(https://preview.redd.it/3mo6dk8jv0l71.jpg?auto=webp&s=248e062d0c6719dde5c747a2fe52c35e3a6f7887)
I've always liked the look of the little bugger. It's like a wee cartoon version of the platonic ideal of a tank. lol lol lol
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Didn't the French use the Chaffee in quantity later on, once the US softened its attitude towards supporting the French in Indochina?
Lots of pictures and even some model kits of the Chaffee are for a dedicated Indochina service version.
(https://preview.redd.it/lfycoa1kbtv51.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=9ed75ee54a324190b5fdf4a2ceba79363aef64f9)
(https://preview.redd.it/3mo6dk8jv0l71.jpg?auto=webp&s=248e062d0c6719dde5c747a2fe52c35e3a6f7887)
I've always liked the look of the little bugger. It's like a wee cartoon version of the platonic ideal of a tank. lol lol lol
Here is an extensive blog post on M24 Chaffees in French Indochina and later Vietnam….
https://wordpress.com/read/feeds/35472213/posts/3897547501
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The only things I'm rather sure of (because, why would they have lied to me?) is that when my grandfather worked as a civilian radio at Saïgon (Tan Son Nhut) airport, and my mother (who was twenty so it was c. 1951-52) went there to stay with her parents for one year, there were jeeps all around for transport when needed, and my grandfather did put a metal net to the windows to avoid someone throwing a grenade in the house.
For example ;)
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Hi,
Not come across the Lewis gun being used although not unlikely given the state of the French forces in the immediate post war period.
No Panthers sadly its an urban myth.
some Hanomag 251's were used. From memory I think they were not the German version but something like Hungarian. Although looked pretty similar and were up armoured in theatre so usually looked 'unique'.
Most of the vehicles used were ex WW2 so worn out and from several nations including the UK and US. However the US banned equipment that was issued to the French NATO army from being sent to Indochina so the theatre became the poor cousin of the French post WW2 military. This changed in 1950 following communist success and the developing theory of the dominoes effect.
What Paul said. Steve Zaloga claims to have met a knowledgeable US serviceman who saw a Panther tank in Vietnam in the early 60's but no photos have ever surfaced so it's still in the myth category for me. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/pink-panther-tank-in-vietnam-t36079.html?sid=6ffeb054e92a8b3a1dd8697695425cea
There were around 12 Hanomags IIRC, with local modifications for cooling. Sadly the links I had on the topic are now 'dead'. There are photos of at least 2 different ones on the internet. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=309130 has some of the information.
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Empress has the MAC mle 31 cast and ready to add to some vehicles soon. So yes we do plan on doing non para troops including colonial types. ;)
This is very good news. Have long wanted to do some games on the De Lattre line, muck around with dinassauts or do some on The Street Without Joy. T’would be lovely if we could squeeze a couple more packs of paras out with MAS 49/56 as then the Indochina range could cover the latter part of the Algerian War as well.
US arms supply is a complex and oft contradictory topic, reflecting what appear to be tensions between State Dept and the military. Officially the US was opposed to colonial regimes and military aid supplied under MAP was not encouraged but were permitted for domestic defence. In this manner the US provided Sabre jets to Portugal but cracked the shits when the Portuguese used them in Angola and demanded they were sent back to Portugal. Sometimes this was avoided with an apparent wink and a nod with funding under MAP being provided to purchase non-US equipment that could then be used wherever.
US policy on supply of military assistance to the French softened somewhat after the outbreak of the Korean War and France was able to access a wider range of support. The US was quite happy to arm the Vietnamese National Army and they were well furnished with US arms. If you see troops in the FIW with Garands they are most likely VNA troops.
Curiously enough the US supplied the French with thousands of M1 Garands along with Sherman tanks, M-47s, jet fighter bombers etc, etc for their NATO role in Germany. Equally oddly they don’t seem to have had the same qualms about the use of some of this equipment in Algeria. Plenty of photos of Metropolitan conscript battalions as part of the quadrillage toting M1 Garands.
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Curiously enough the US supplied the French with thousands of M1 Garands along with Sherman tanks, M-47s, jet fighter bombers etc, etc for their NATO role in Germany. Equally oddly they don’t seem to have had the same qualms about the use of some of this equipment in Algeria. Plenty of photos of Metropolitan conscript battalions as part of the quadrillage toting M1 Garands.
Yes it is curious. The FFL were certainly using them in Algeria.
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Perhaps because Algeria was officially part of Metropolitan France rather than a Colony? An artificial distinction in many ways but Algeria was different politically to eg Tunisia.
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Perhaps because Algeria was officially part of Metropolitan France rather than a Colony? An artificial distinction in many ways but Algeria was different politically to eg Tunisia.
Very good point. ;)
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I looked at the books I have on the topic, which support the facts mentioned by the other posters that old WW2 era weapons were being used.
With the school-french I came up with the following "fusil-mitrailleur Lewis Mark I en indochine" which shows french equipment, i.e. the MAC-24/29 and the like. So no clue.
The uniforms and kit of the French were quite varied, never seen any pictures of Lewis Guns as in WW1 however.
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What Paul said. Steve Zaloga claims to have met a knowledgeable US serviceman who saw a Panther tank in Vietnam in the early 60's but no photos have ever surfaced so it's still in the myth category for me. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/missinglynx/pink-panther-tank-in-vietnam-t36079.html?sid=6ffeb054e92a8b3a1dd8697695425cea
There were around 12 Hanomags IIRC, with local modifications for cooling. Sadly the links I had on the topic are now 'dead'. There are photos of at least 2 different ones on the internet. http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=309130 has some of the information.
I do not fully understand the numbers, but it looks like more than 12 Hanomags on the US Govt 1954 Lessons Learned document I linked. Page 48C in particular mentions Half-Track Hanomags being eliminated. Again, I do not quite get what the numbers mean. How many in service by year perhaps?
Interesting to see the Universal Carrier (Ford T-16 MK2) numbers as well.
https://download1587.mediafire.com/vxsa3v2nm0lg/pdlbp07x757ni1f/AD804375.pdf
It is a challenge to wade through it but that document has a wealth of information.
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Interesting document but I suspect there are a few errors. Presuming that ‘Armored [sic] Vehicles Kept in Service’ means vehicles passed on to the ARVN, then the M36 data looks suspect. The M36 battalion was specifically formed to provide an anti-armour reserve in the event of Chinese intervention into northern Tonkin. I’ve seen no evidence that the ARVN inherited any of these.
ARVN armour from 1955 on was almost wholly M5s and M24 as light tanks, M8 and M20 in the recce role, with a miscellany of M3 Scout Cars, M3 Halftacks and the occasional bit of exotica like Dingo/ Lynx scout cars, Canadian CT-15s filling out the rest. A little later some Wickum armoured rail draisines were purchased from the British in Malaya.
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Reading the rest of the document, to me the context of kept versus eliminated looks purely on French retention not passing on to ARVN as it talks about the shift to increasingly more universally British and American equipped units. The eliminations look to me just those being phased out from French service but does not address at all what happened to vehicles when eliminated.
Interesting I just noticed this M36 wiki page references eight M36s being given to Taiwan in 1955 But I do not see the original source material for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M36_tank_destroyer#Operators
“The Republic of China Army acquired eight ex-French examples in 1955, having them stationed in Kinmen island group and saw combat during the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in 1958. They were deemed more maneuverable than the bigger M48A3 and later CM11/12 MBTs, while being more powerful than M24 and M41 light tanks. As of April 2001, at least two still remained in service with troops in Lieyu Township.”
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Found these links, I don't know if it can help.
https://www.monsieur-legionnaire.org/images/Les-armes-de-la-LegioneEtrangere-de%201939-a-1979.pdf
https://www.overlord.fr/post-1945/5841-les-armes-de-la-guerre-d-indochine-1945-1954.html
That first link is particularly useful to me in that it addresses a nagging question I have had about the MAS CR 39 Paratrooper Carbines. The aluminum folding stock always looks silver which seemed odd to me considering efforts made for camouflage clothing but the one on that page seems to have had a light olive green finish that has been wearing away.
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Unless you are polishing it, aluminium oxides pretty quickly anyway and it’s a flat effect. For what it’s worth I painted the stocks on the Empress chaps with a very light grey. Didn’t know they were initially painted but it makes sense.
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Unless you are polishing it, aluminium oxides pretty quickly anyway and it’s a flat effect. For what it’s worth I painted the stocks on the Empress chaps with a very light grey. Didn’t know they were initially painted but it makes sense.
It reminds me of paint wearing off aluminum camouflage netting poles for vehicles.
I don’t normally consider myself much of a stitch or button counter but little details like this intrigue me, especially when they are not commonly discussed or are not part of “accepted theory”.
This is why the reference to Lewis guns is so interesting to me. I have been looking through probably a couple of hundred photos online and in reference books and never seen a photo of a Lewis in French use in Indochina.
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It is true the French had a battalion of 50 Panther tanks post war but they were never sent to Indochina. Except in my forthcoming Fantasy Indochina games :D
I didn't know that about Hanomag half tracks though thanks for the info.
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It has been fascinating to learn more about this conflict. So much information has been lost but there are still some sources of information that can reveal some amazing examples of local military ingenuity given the limited resources sent by France.
I am admittedly very curious about the disposition of all the left of vast lots of military hardware from WW2.