Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: oxiana on 21 October 2009, 04:45:12 PM
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I just bought the West Wind Tsar Nicholas minis, and on an impulse (curse ye, 'click to add to basket' button!) threw in his bodyguards:
(http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq291/oxianaboy/ghr0003.jpg)
There are four of them, but you get the picture. The question is, do these look like they're sculpted to match specific uniforms? Can anyone please give me some pointers on how to approach the paint job?
Thanks!
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They don't look like any specific uniform to me. I guess it just depends on how you want to use them. If you're using them as fantasy Russians, then it doesn't matter. Just paint them however you feel. But if you want them to look somewhat close to historical, paint them in the standard Russian khaki, black boots and brown leather belts and equipment. I generally paint the fur hats in different shades of grey, and the greatcoats can be grey or darker khaki. I don't know how ambitious you want to be, but you might want to file off some of those extra buttons too. Nice figures.
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I am not sure until when the russian dark green was used for full dress
otherwise go for Khaki or White
I know however that the Cossack guards had very colorful uniforms
(http://images.suite101.com/158040_convoycossacks.jpg)
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_russian_imperial_guard_in_1917
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/russian_imperial_guards_orbat_1917
(http://images.suite101.com/192878_inspection.jpg)
this is Putins new Guard, but I guess the uniform must resemble some historical one
(http://images.suite101.com/192857_newrussianguards.jpg)
and finally, the original grenadier company in 1917
(http://images.suite101.com/192889_grenadier.jpg)
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ah here, around 1900
(http://images.suite101.com/192691_ftguardsunforms_page_1_image_0001.jpg)
(http://images.suite101.com/192695_guardscavalryuniforms_page_1_image_0001.jpg)
and I don't know how accurate this collection is:
http://ironfelix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15_22 (http://ironfelix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15_22)
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Not all guards are created equal.
The Imperial Guard was a large number of regiments which had high prestige, but were in the end just regiments of the army. They no more bodyguards of the Tsar than the Scots Guards are of the Queen.
Nicholas II was guarded by his Cossack personal escort (often mistranslated as "convoy"). They wore a red cherkeska on parade days -- and this is where the standard image of Cossacks in red comes from. They wore a blue "service" cherkeska most of the time. The figures in question are not them.
(The picture posted by former user is a bit of a puzzle. I think it comes from a famous occasion when the nobility deliberately dressed in archaic clothes, and the guards did likewise. One of them has a bow-and-arrow, which definitely was not part of any 1910 uniform!)
It wouldn't surprise me though if he didn't have a small special guard for particular occasions when the Cossacks weren't suitable.
The 1910 uniforms are shown by Shenk: http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rusarmy/shenk/shenk1ds.htm . Many of them
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Lovely stuff, some good food for thought. I'll post pictures once they're done, but they've a few minis ahead of them in the queue at the moment...
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One of them has a bow-and-arrow, which definitely was not part of any 1910 uniform!)
I think that guy is supposed to be dressed as a Circassian. That and the chainmail hood tipped me off. ;)
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Hello
I think the unit in former user's foto is the Caucasian squadron of the guard. This unit existed until 1882.
each platoon had its own extremely colourful uniforms. The first platoon had Georgians, the second platoon had mountain men (my source is french (Zweguintzow)and talks of Montagnards)(they were dressed mostly in red with blue trousers), the third platoon consisted of Lezguins and the fourth platoon consisted of muslims.
Carl
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The man with the bow and armour seems to me like a Bashkir.
There was a guard unit during Napoleonic wars.
Maybe they retained some uniforms for ceremonial purposes.
One of them is wearing a typical turcomen's hat and two of them the typical beehive hat.Some also look very Georgian in style.
I presume that the photo is an old one, around 1880's, representing men of the Czar's guard, in traditional dresses of various caucasian and beyond (transcaucasian) origins.
Hello
I think the unit in former user's foto is the Caucasian squadron of the guard. This unit existed until 1882.
each platoon had its own extremely colourful uniforms. The first platoon had Georgians, the second platoon had mountain men (my source is french (Zweguintzow)and talks of Montagnards)(they were dressed mostly in red with blue trousers), the third platoon consisted of Lezguins and the fourth platoon consisted of muslims.
Carl
So, I second this opinion. I cannot recognise the colours, but sounds colourful!
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the picture in question is subtitled "convoy cossacks"
maybe thus the many uniforms - if the title is correct
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It is a fantasy uniform and pre 20th Century. By 1900, the Ivans were wearing the pullover cotton shirt (gymnastiorka).
This looks like 1870's Russo-Turkish War era stuff. There is a Yahoo group on the conflict that you may want to check for inspiration. (There is a Yahoo group on Everything now.)
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the picture of the "convoy cossacks" really inspires people...
Let's take it step by step:
First thing, there can be no doubt that we see Guard uniforms.(let us discount the retro guy with the chainmal and bow from the start) - let us also assume this is not a fancy dress party, but real parade dress uniform.
A common feature (6 of 8 ) is the Kuban-style of the garment - but in a militarized version, with typical "end of the Century" epaulettes (7 of 8 ) and stand-up military collars (6 of 8 ). There are 3 types of fur hats: the traditional "Zaporoshye" Cossack felt hat with fur brim (3), one Kubanka and 3 Papakhas, as well as this peakless Chako.
There can be no surprise about the combination of ethno-dress and uniform, nor the retro-style of general apperance (Guard uniforms are always a vehicle of dynastic legitimation).
There are some details that deserve special attention, being related to political aspects and functionality of military equipment, thus representing chronological markers:
- epaulettes
- the badge on the Chako
- the cavalry boots far right
- the cut of the uniform far left, with the campaign-style overpants
- the uniform pants in the middle, with the broad double stripes as well as the "guard" cuffs, later retained by the german army
- the cartridge rows on the Kuban style shirts
- the cartridge pouch of the soldier far left
finally, the fact that it is a photography of very high quality, and the studio background of the picture.
without having too much uniform history knowledge, I would date the photograph to the third quarter of the 19th C (photograph on paper, stylistic features of the background, fashion of the uniform far left)
to get it more accurate, certain aspects would have to be clarified by specialists:
- when did the uniform style far left cease to exist? (in ACW, this style was still worn)
- the Chako badge!
- when did the Imperial Army adopt bolt action weapons?
- when did the tassel epaulettes got replaced in the Imperial army, and when were they discarded (as seen in the colour plates from around 1900)
- Which Tsar did introduce a photographic studio with modern paper prints and when?
- how were the Guard Cossack units organized during the general period ?
- for how long did the stiff "heavy cavalry" boots remain in use? (far right)
Keeping in mind the general "retro" orientation of Tsarist Empire, the picture could be very well from the end of the Century.
So who could contribute in answering the specialized aspects?
my thoughts...
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let us also assume this is not a fancy dress party, but real parade dress uniform.
Parade dress uniforms of guards are fancy dress.
These guys might be the equivalent of the band leader of the modern British guard.
http://files.list.co.uk/images/r/Scots-Guards.jpg
Most of the features you cite remained in force right up to the revolution, at least in individual places. The man standing in the middle has a uniform pretty much of 1914 Imperial Escort Cossacks. The others are increasingly archaic, ending up with the mail-clad archer.
I'll put my bet on this being a photo intended to show the change of the Guard uniform over time.
- how were the Guard Cossack units organized during the general period ?
There were Guard Regiments of Cossacks - Lifeguard, Atamans and Combined. This is not them.
There was also the Tsar's personal Escort (mistranslated as Convoy). Formed from Kuban and Terek Cossacks, and dressed in a very ornate version of Caucasian dress.
Keeping in mind the general "retro" orientation of Tsarist Empire, the picture could be very well from the end of the Century.
The Tsarist Empire was not "retro". It was very modern in some regards, and struggling to catch up in others. That doesn't mean though that it was not trying to modernise. Despite Bolshevik assertions to the contrary, Tsarist Russia was a leader in science and the arts (Igor Sikorsky, Ivan Pavlov, Kasimir Malevich).
Tsar Nicholas II personally was quite old-fashioned in some regards, certainly at least in terms of dressing his guard. His father had stripped most of this stuff out in the process of modernisation, and he moved it back again.
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Parade dress uniforms of guards are fancy dress.
There were Guard Regiments of Cossacks - Lifeguard, Atamans and Combined. This is not them.
and dressed in a very ornate version of Caucasian dress.
The Tsarist Empire was not "retro". It was very modern in some regards, and struggling to catch up in others. That doesn't mean though that it was not trying to modernise. Despite Bolshevik assertions to the contrary, Tsarist Russia was a leader in science and the arts (Igor Sikorsky, Ivan Pavlov, Kasimir Malevich).
Tsar Nicholas II personally was quite old-fashioned in some regards, ....... and he moved it back again.
I think You know what I mean by "fancy dress party" - somone else posing as Cossacks...
well, then obviously, these must be the "convoy", as the subtitle says..
and with "retro" I do mean old fashioned in many ways
but we should not forget that only modern things were adopted that served the empire - don't forget the many artists who were forced to take refuge in western Europe - this is a very ambivalent combination we always have to keep in mind when dealing with Tsarist Russia - in no way did I intend to disregard the achievments
but also one should keep in mind that the Empire was the last absolutistic state in Europe and the Okhrana supressed any freedom of thought ruthlessly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okhrana)
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Don't believe the Soviet lies! The Okhrana was not particularly ruthless. Mostly people were sent to internal exile: very few were executed.
If we are going on "communists claimed the Okhrana had operated torture chambers" this is pretty weak stuff. Especially coming from notorious liars.
The ChEKa would show the world what ruthless really meant.
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;)
don't know about torture chambers
What I know is that many modern artists, musicians and writers found it safer to work in the west.
And I know is that though the Russian upper-class lived a "chique" western style life, majority of workers, peasants and academics had reason to stage a serious revolution, and that this revolution was not started by Bolshewiks, but only taken advantage of by this minority fraction of the only democratic government ever to exist in the history of this country (apart from maybe some weak attempts after Gorbachev).
And also that virtually noone fighting in RCW wanted the Tsar and his government back...
but this is hardly about the uniforms, about which I think now we should have some reasonable idea by now :)
btw, here are some more pictures, around 1915
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/RomanovsCossacks1916cropped.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Gw_tsarstaff_01.jpg)
And I shall be curious if in future we see some colourful uniforms on miniatures, though there aren't many that would allow for what we see above in the pictures.
btw, the Romanovs in the Westwind range are a few daughters short..
does anyone know about useful figures to complement?
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Hello
I've put pictures on the "Imperial escort" on this link.
The first shows the platoon of mountaineers (officer in undress, officer in full dress and a horse man). The second shows the platoons of Lezguins and Muslims (full dress and undress)
If someone can upload be my guest
Carl
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What I know is that many modern artists, musicians and writers found it safer to work in the west.
Name them! Seriously. You will struggle to name artists forced to live outside Tsarist Russia. (Politicos by the dozens, artists no.) The Tsar's intolerance was pretty much limited to political/nationalist views.
And I shall be curious if in future we see some colourful uniforms on miniatures, though there aren't many that would allow for what we see above in the pictures.
Copplestone's Caucasian Cossacks are wearing the same uniform as the Tsar's Escort in service dress. If I wanted to paint Nicky with guards I wouldn't hesitate to use them straight. Parade dress is a bit different, but parade dress was exactly that.
The generals would require some conversions, but nothing too elaborate. Some headswaps and green-stuff medals really.
(I wish my 1860 Mexicans were so simple! :) )
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Name them!
Pushkin (not an exile, but banned for a time)
Gogol
Dostoyevsky (not an exile, but in prison and Siberia)
Saltykov-Shchedrin
Pieshcheyev
Maikov
Taras Shevchenko
Petrashevsky and others from his circle too (see above)
the Lyubomudry circle
OK, these were opressed before the Okhrana was founded, but nonetheless victims of Tsarist anti-liberalism (even if "only" banned from the cultural centers)
the Opression of "politicos" came of course later, after the murder of Alexander II
The list is longer....
@CDR sorry, I can't find a link...
returning to uniforms, the picture of the Tsar and his HQ (mounted), shows some Cossacks in the uniform pictured before, so basically it seems that with some proper freehands, Cuban Cossacks can be painted to look like the "convoy" bodyguard
not my cup of tea anyway, I'm rather poor with freehands
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http://s343.photobucket.com/albums/o480/cdr_2008/
sorry
curse this technology thingy ;)
Carl
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I guess You mean these:
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o480/cdr_2008/rus2.jpg)
(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o480/cdr_2008/rus.jpg)
quite similar to the photographs
and the hell of "retro" I'd say about the chainmail
reminds me of Darfour cavalry from the same period...
If You please could explain the terms "Peloton" and "Lezguin", at least to me ignorant :'(
I guess "montaignard" means mountaineer (seriously mountain troops?)
and the Chavalier would be the cavalier guard?
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Montagnards are indeed mountaineers. Not mountain troops, but people from the Caucasian Mountains. Excellent cavalry, they put up stern resistance to Russian occupation throughout the 19th Century. The Kuban and Terek Cossacks were moved to the Caucasus region to act as a buffer against the mountain people, and ended up adopting their dress. That's why their uniforms are different from those of other Cossacks.
Some tribes you may have heard of. The Chechens and Russians have had a few rather brutal goes at each other over the last 200 years. The Ingush are related to the Chechens.
The Ossetians have been in the news recently. They are mostly Christian whereas most mountaineers are Moslem, often quite strongly so.
The Lezgins are one tribe, but the name used to be used to cover a whole group of them in the Dagestan region. Another similar group are the Cherkes, usually translated as Circassians in English, which covers both one tribe but formerly a whole group.
Peleton is platoon. Cavalier is horseman. Petite tenue is service, and grande tenue is parade dress.
These uniforms are all pre-20th Century though, I think.
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Service dress as it was about 1914: http://masteriza.ru/photogallery/photo00002145/mil_044.jpg
http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rusarmy/shenk/shenk6cs.htm
Parade uniform more or less : http://www.livekuban.ru/files/images/2009-04-13_104510.preview.gif
http://www.xenophon-mil.org/rusarmy/shenk/shenk6bs.htm
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The Caucasian Guard Squadron was raised in 1828 and existed until 1882. There is still a group of Lezguins (about 600000 strong) in Azerbaijan. Mark Plant explained all the rest
Carl
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If You please could explain the terms "Peloton" and "Lezguin", at least to me ignorant :'(
I guess "montaignard" means mountaineer (seriously mountain troops?)
and the Chavalier would be the cavalier guard?
Peloton is the French word for platoon, and montagnards are any people who live in the mountains. Chevalier most often means a knight, but it also indicates a cavalryman. The Lezguin are a race of people who live in Azerbaijan.
As for the man with the chainmail hood and bow, I said earlier that Circassians used these, but there may have been other groups of people in the Caucasus Mountain region who dressed similarly. Some of these fought for the Turks, and I believe they used this gear fairly late in history too, although I don't know how common it would have been in the early 20th Century.