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Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Daeothar on February 06, 2023, 04:05:19 PM

Title: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Daeothar on February 06, 2023, 04:05:19 PM: OK, I need a bit of advice. I thought I'd hit the WW2 forum before I get completely lost on the outside web... ::)

I'm currently in the midst of a scifi project, largely inspired by the baddies in the Return to Castle Wolfenstein PC game. I've got the infantry down, and found some really nice vehicles to go with them, but now I'm stuck on painting them.

I was thinking I'd do them the typical early to mid war overall grey, with big, white-trimmed red numbers. The web tells me I should use RAL7021 for this, and I went and ordered me a can of Vallejo Panzer Grey spraypaint plus a dropper bottle of the same colour, which are also marked as being RAL7021.

So I sprayed the first vehicle and it is incredibly dark; nearing black. Much darker than most miniature representations I've seen so far.

Hence my question: what grey should I use to get the desired result? I'm ok with dark grey, but not nearly black (the infantry already looks like that). What do most people use for this?
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: modelwarrior on February 06, 2023, 04:24:01 PM: If i am painting German tanks with vallejo I prime Black,then Dark Grey 054,then Dark Sea Green 053,German grey 052 and finally Light grey 050. The coats get gradually lighter and are thined out. The final coat is dry brushed on.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: SJWi on February 06, 2023, 04:54:40 PM: Daeothar, for my Panzers I use the Revell Aquacolor No 78 Panzergrau/Tank Gray. Basecoat straight out of the plastic "box" and then dry-brush with a gray/white lighter tone. I'm always happy with the result.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Freddy on February 06, 2023, 06:15:16 PM: The term "Panzer Grey/Panzergrau" was invented by modelers, it was officially called Dunkelgrau, and it was a pretty dark colour of grey, almost black. Wear&tear sometimes made it lighter, but modelers and illustrators usually overlighten it to be more visually attractive.

To answer the question, I use Tamiya Panzer Grey (also comes in spray form, handy if you do not want to airbrush), with Nuln Oil in the deeper areas and GW Eshin Grey highlighting. Sometimes a little more light filtering in the middle of the big areas. This is for 1/35, for smaller scales go for a little lighter ("scale effect""), 15mm and below I would use a little light grey drybrush too.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2ijsjbNZ06o/X627H3vyBcI/AAAAAAAAAB8/Oqm-l0CB2Pc1O4dnhISr2aqH7F7EjyK8gCLcBGAsYHQ/w470-h304/PzIVF1_2_10.JPG)
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: madman on February 06, 2023, 10:40:53 PM: I use Humbrol enamels so no help that way. BUT I would suggest dry brushing the vehicles with progressively lighter greys until you get the look you feel is what you want. I would do only one grey per day, wait until the next day for it to completely dry and decide if you want a lighter colour. The layers of colour should also help bring the models to life as opposed to a single bland pallet. Don't do a dark wash, use the base colour for that.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Dubar on February 07, 2023, 01:05:06 AM: I just got in a bottle of Mission Models Paints Color: MMP-014 Panzergrey RAL 7012. it looks right but I haven't used it yet.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Fitz on February 07, 2023, 01:20:35 AM: I prefer VMC Basalt Grey as the base colour for my 15mm grey tanks and things.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L95L6HSySBg/WTtwfptf5jI/AAAAAAAAIQc/1txpfvmy09cC015yUNjTK787a8J3iD9OwCLcB/s1600/20170610_marder3ausf139-001.jpg)

I've seen original colour photographs (i.e. not colorized) from WWII, from Signal mostly, showing German tanks in greys from a relatively pale blue-grey right up to a dark, almost black grey. You've got a fair amount of leeway; my preference for Basalt Grey is just that — a personal preference.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Fitz on February 07, 2023, 01:34:09 AM: Here's a photo from either just pre-war, or very early in the war, of a bunch of grey-painted stuff on parade.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EQXhvlsuauA/XhfFUBdme_I/AAAAAAAAN2c/BIJpEvzj1asR-np62VIumQX1fW39ONuwwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/2020-01-10_GermanParade.jpg)

The rounded noses of the Panzer II on the transports mean that they're very early models, and I'm not sure any of those first version were ever actually in action. There's a slight green cast to the whole photo, not uncommon to old slide film, but the tone of the grey is more important in this case than the precise hue.

A photo like this is useful because there's a complete range of tones present, from the blacks of the tankers' uniforms up to the pure white on the cenotaph, so we can be reasonably sure that the grey tones are fairly accurate.
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Daeothar on February 07, 2023, 09:01:10 AM: This I why I love the LAF; it's a veritable treaure trove of knowledge and advice :D

Looks like my basecoat is actually ballpark correct, but as mentioned; the smaller you go, the lighter the tone will have to be. I'm working at roughly 1/50 here, so not too small, but I would like to get my stuff up to the tone in Fitz's picture, so there's going to be some layers of drybrushing I reckon. I want my armour to be noticeably lighter than the black uniforms of the infantry.

I'll be opening a thread in the appropriate sub-forum (scifi) soon, if you want to see what this fuss is all about.

Many thanks for all the insights, recipies and pictures; they're a huge help! :)
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: McYellowbelly on February 07, 2023, 09:29:00 AM: Also, very early war had red brown camo as well.
Hardly discernable in black and white photos.
If you look closely at the colourised photo, you can see that there is a faint camo pattern visible on the sides of the lorries.
By 1941ish it had changed to overall grey
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Gunner Dunbar on February 07, 2023, 10:45:46 AM: The spray can will actually be a close representation of the colour, for a factory painted vehicle, but the colour fades and goes lighter with dust etc, also vehicles simply look better with lighter greys, use the pray on grey as the undercoat, then apply lighter shades till your happy, here’s some I’ve just finished
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Eclaireur on February 07, 2023, 10:48:14 AM: Daeothar- I had exactly the same experience, having bought a Vallejo dunkelgrau spray, my vehicles came out nearly black. Freddy is right that ‘real’ panzer gray is pretty dark but that said, because of the scale effect and way the sunlight boosts the upper surfaces of a vehicle I don’t think the ‘authentic’ colour is at all appropriate on miniatures. I went a different route to some of the others and sprayed a mid gray, darkening it down with washes
https://twitter.com/ec1aireur/status/1544254111528456192?s=61&t=sCAm5VW6j2M8kNkQn9EoTg
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Etranger on February 07, 2023, 11:08:03 AM: Quote from: Fitz on February 07, 2023, 01:34:09 AM
Here's a photo from either just pre-war, or very early in the war, of a bunch of grey-painted stuff on parade.

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-EQXhvlsuauA/XhfFUBdme_I/AAAAAAAAN2c/BIJpEvzj1asR-np62VIumQX1fW39ONuwwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/2020-01-10_GermanParade.jpg)

The rounded noses of the Panzer II on the transports mean that they're very early models, and I'm not sure any of those first version were ever actually in action. There's a slight green cast to the whole photo, not uncommon to old slide film, but the tone of the grey is more important in this case than the precise hue.

A photo like this is useful because there's a complete range of tones present, from the blacks of the tankers' uniforms up to the pure white on the cenotaph, so we can be reasonably sure that the grey tones are fairly accurate.

It actually shows the 2/3 dunklegrau (RAL 7021) , 1/3 dunklebraun (RAL 7017) scheme used from 1938 to mid 1940. It's particularly evident on the tank transporters but other photos from the same (or similar) parades show widespread use. http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm The parade date is stated to be 20th April 1939.

(https://blog.done.gr/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Hugo-JAEGER-Photographe-personnel-Hitler-42.jpg)
From https://blog.done.gr/history/hugo-jaeger,with details of the photographer.

Fitz, the early models were used in Poland where their thin armour proved a problem. The survivors were often rebuilt with better armour.

(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/tanks/panzer-2/destroyed_Panzer_II_Poland_1939_2.jpg) 2 ko'd PzII from Poland.

(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/germany/tanks/panzer-2/Panzer_II_ausf_b_poland_1939.jpg)
and an even earlier preproduction model (ausf b), again from the Polish campaign.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-382-0248-33A%2C_Im_Westen%2C_Panzer_II_und_Panzer_I.jpg)
This is a rebuilt one, with angular nose armour, no cupola, which was sometimes also added. France 1940.

Apologies to the mods for the 'crooked crosses', a bit hard to avoid in the context!
Title: Re: What colour for Panzer Grey?
Post by: Major_Gilbear on February 16, 2023, 10:49:46 AM: Interestingly, just after reading your thread here, I saw that Sonic Sledgehammer has just posted a YT video on painting a tank in a scheme of this era (link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBRUmdpu6XA)).

The colour scheme he uses starts of with Citadel Mechanicus Standard Grey, and he later uses the German Panzer Grey for the rubber-rimmed wheels on the tracks - this shows the colour/tone difference between the two colours quite effectively. You may find his approach helpful, and it's easy to follow along/adjust as you wish. :)