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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Hobgoblin on March 06, 2023, 02:44:33 PM
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A bit of a mystery, this one, though I have a vague inkling that I knew the answer at the time: who designed the miniatures for this range (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Fantasy_Warlord_%28Alternative_Armies%29)?
(http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/thumb/7/77/AA-FW-CatalogPage1.jpg/436px-AA-FW-CatalogPage1.jpg)
(http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/thumb/d/d6/AA-FW-CatalogPage2.jpg/436px-AA-FW-CatalogPage2.jpg)
There was a parallel Fantasy Warlord range (http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Fantasy_Warlord_%28Folio_Works%29#FW5.1)done in part by Bob Olley (and still in production at SHQ Miniatures (https://shqltd.com/product-category/25-28mm-ranges/25-28mm-fantasy-gods-and-goddesses/25-28mm-fantasy-figures/)), but the AA range is somewhat mysterious. A moonlighting Citadel designer? Whoever it was was/is very good - they're very nice miniatures.
Anyone have any idea?
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If you click through the pic of the Dwarf Hero, it names the sculptor as Kev Adams.
If so, I would assume he did most/all of them, but that seems to be the only one where a sculptor is named.
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Aha, thanks! Yes, that would make sense; odd, though, that his involvement isn't trumpeted by AA (as they do for other stuff). The orc leader does have an Adams-y look about the torso armour, right enough, though the overall style is a little different from his normal stuff:
(http://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/9/9b/AA-FW-24000.jpg)
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Apparently, the FW 8 Dwarfs, FW 5 Urucks, and FW 9 Ogres were all by Bob Olley.
And as well as Kev Adams (dwarf heroes), I think Gary Morley did some (dwarf troopers, weapons ), and I think it's also possible Bob Naismith may have sculpted some too...
You might also try asking Alternative Armies, who apparently still have the original moulds to the figures and can cast them up on request?
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Apparently, the FW 8 Dwarfs, FW 5 Urucks, and FW 9 Ogres were all by Bob Olley.
Yes, those are the ones in that FW Folio Works range (it's really odd that the one game had two parallel ranges at the same time!). The Urucks are - I think - now the SHQ Hill Orcs (judging by the shaman photo from that range) and this Instagram photo (https://www.instagram.com/p/BrcgbyMH2MF/). They look irresistibly cheap on SHQ!
The other Uruks/Western Orcs are clearly by whoever did that Orc leader: they look almost like the work of a Kev Adams/Jez Goodwin hybrid!
And as well as Kev Adams (dwarf heroes), I think Gary Morley did some (dwarf troopers, weapons ), and I think it's also possible Bob Naismith may have sculpted some too...
You might also try asking Alternative Armies, who apparently still have the original moulds to the figures and can cast them up on request?
Aha - I'm much less familiar with Gary Morley's stuff. Bob Naismith's a good call.
Good point on AA! Yes, they still have them for sale on the main site and have written blogs about them.
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Yeah, I'm surprised sculptors aren't mentioned on the AA listing page as I thought they normally did with old school stuff. At least they have been with the recent Nick Bibby re-releases.
Come to think of it, I can't remember if they name Bob Olley on their Erin stuff, but he's so recognisable they maybe don't need to!
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Come to think of it, I can't remember if they name Bob Olley on their Erin stuff, but he's so recognisable they maybe don't need to!
They don't seem to, but, then again, he only did some of it (the first Sidhe warriors - very distinctive as you say). If memory serves, these and the first Fomorians (not by Olley) were originally released by Fantasy Forge (or Grendel?). The later stuff (Milesians, more Fomorians) was Alternative Armies from the outset, I think and is by a third sculptor.
So perhaps they're not drawing attention to the designers to make the range look more seamless.
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:o Thanks for this post. I own a few (not many) of these since ...many years, and I never wondered where they were from.
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I am currently painting up both Dwarves and Urucks/Orcs from both SHQ and AA ranges and both are probably from the same sculptor, otherwise I wouldnt have matched them.
I am assuming the Fantasy Warlord range was the same sculptor?
Note: SHQ does not have all of the dwarves in its range which it advertises.
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I am currently painting up both Dwarves and Urucks/Orcs from both SHQ and AA ranges and both are probably from the same sculptor, otherwise I wouldnt have matched them.
I'm pretty sure that the AA orcs aren't by Bob Olley (I could be wrong!): the SHQ ones have his characteristic wrinkly gloved hands and distinctive knuckles, as well as more stylised arm musculature and longer upper lips. The AA ones don't have those or any of the other distinctive Olley traits.
I've only seen photos of the SHQ ones, and they look very obviously Olley. I have a few AA ones, and they look quite different (spindlier, more naturalistic), though they're obviously designed to a similar brief (three-fingered hands, long mail coats, separate weapons).
The more I look at the AA ones, the more I wonder about Jes Goodwin: the faces of the AA ones aren't a million miles from his Citadel Uruk-hai and ogres.
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I found this picture of some of the SHQ/Olley ones on eBay (for comparison with the AA one above):
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9zQAAOSwU4VkAzUS/s-l1600.png)
What a great range in the 'mature' Olley style - it's amazing that SHQ don't do more to advertise those!
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I am currently painting up both Dwarves and Urucks/Orcs from both SHQ and AA ranges and both are probably from the same sculptor, otherwise I wouldnt have matched them.
Do you have any photos of them? Would be great to see more shots of the SHQ ones in particular!
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Hi Hobgoblin.
I know, I was there. I would have laid out that flyer.
The Dwarves, Eastern Orcs & humans were Gary Morley, pre-GW.
The Elves, Orcs and Goblins were Chaz Elliott.
The Ogres were a mix. Chaz did the heads and weapons, but left before finishing them so Gary did the bodies.
The listing as Kev Adams is wrong. Kev did some figures for AA but it was after the whole Fantasy Warlord project collapsed, he was still at GW at the time.
They aren't the same AA BTW. The Fantasy Warlord figures were made when AA was in Nottingham. The company was sold to the current owners in Scotland a good few years after the FW project, there's non of the same people involved anymore.
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They don't seem to, but, then again, he only did some of it (the first Sidhe warriors - very distinctive as you say). If memory serves, these and the first Fomorians (not by Olley) were originally released by Fantasy Forge (or Grendel?). The later stuff (Milesians, more Fomorians) was Alternative Armies from the outset, I think and is by a third sculptor.
So perhaps they're not drawing attention to the designers to make the range look more seamless.
It was all AA to begin with. Bob Olley made the Sidhe and Chaz Elliott made the Fomorians. Chaz Elliott went to work for Fantasy Forge after, and Bob Olley threw a dicky fit & walked out claiming AA was just a front for Brian Ansell and he'd never work for that %$£& again, leaving the bemused owner of AA with a part finished Celtic Myth range in his hands. The range was continued (The Milesians & other Fomorians) by Andy Cooper, who now owns West Wind of course.
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Wow, thanks Nick - very interesting indeed!
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I don't know much about the SHQ/ Bob Olley designed Fantasy Warlord range.
What I do know is this though.
The founders of Fantasy Warlord, Ian Bailey and Gary Chalk, started a 'rival to Citadel' company, with the game (Fantasy Warlord), the magazine (Red Giant) and a figure range licensed through AA. It was AA's range, they paid a license fee to market them as FW. It was supposed to be a great little union of small companies to offer an alternative to Warhammer.
What AA didn't know was that Ian Bailey was a shark. Within a very short period of time he was manoeuvring to sue AA for (goodness knows what) with a aim of taking the figure range off them for nothing. It didn't work, so AA just started selling the figures as an unlicensed Fantasy range and Bailey went on to commission a new Fantasy Warlord range with someone else (I don't recall who). The giveaway is the packaging, they went to that awful 'shrink wrap figures to a blister card' method rather than blister packs.
Anyway, in true shark fashion, Bailey went on to shaft everyone and disappeared leaving his poor partner Gary Chalk holding all the unpaid bills.
Dunno what happened to the unsold books, Red Giant never got past 2 issues and Gary had all the masters to figure range part 2 and managed to recoup some of the money lost by selling them on (eventually to SHQ I presume).
This was my interpretation of what happened after the split from AA, I wasn't there of course to know for sure.
Thankfully, the hobby industry hasn't had an Ian Bailey character creeping around in a long time, at least not in my sight, maybe they just do Kickstarters now.
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Hi Hobgoblin.
I know, I was there. I would have laid out that flyer.
The Dwarves, Eastern Orcs & humans were Gary Morley, pre-GW.
The Elves, Orcs and Goblins were Chaz Elliott.
The Ogres were a mix. Chaz did the heads and weapons, but left before finishing them so Gary did the bodies.
The listing as Kev Adams is wrong. Kev did some figures for AA but it was after the whole Fantasy Warlord project collapsed, he was still at GW at the time.
They aren't the same AA BTW. The Fantasy Warlord figures were made when AA was in Nottingham. The company was sold to the current owners in Scotland a good few years after the FW project, there's non of the same people involved anymore.
Ah - brilliant! Thanks so much for clearing all of that up!
The Chaz Elliot stuff is really good (limitations of the arm positioning/separate weapons notwithstanding); I'd never really taken note of which stuff he'd done at GW, etc., but those orcs are lovely - the wizard, leader and discipline master in particular.
It was all AA to begin with. Bob Olley made the Sidhe and Chaz Elliott made the Fomorians. Chaz Elliott went to work for Fantasy Forge after, and Bob Olley threw a dicky fit & walked out claiming AA was just a front for Brian Ansell and he'd never work for that %$£& again, leaving the bemused owner of AA with a part finished Celtic Myth range in his hands. The range was continued (The Milesians & other Fomorians) by Andy Cooper, who now owns West Wind of course.
Ah - right - many thanks again for clearing up! I have a very dim memory of there being some connection between the AA Fomorians and the Fantasy Forge Fomorians (the ones you sell now); I'm sure I got my AA Fomorians from the FF studio (perhaps they were there as samples from Chaz Elliot or something?). It's all pretty hazy, though!
I'm still amazed by that SHQ range. When you consider how much people will pay for Bob Olley's Iron Claw black orcs, it's astonishing that you can get those chunky "Urucks" for under £3 a pop! I suppose the same's true of the Essex Cursaa's orcs, but the SHQ stuff is better (to my eye at least) than the Iron Claw orcs - more in line with the Ral Partha and Reaper stuff that Olley did.
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It was a veeerrry long time ago. The AA & FF Celtic ranges were out around the same time. The AA was generic whereas the FF one was going to be a licensed Slaine range, I've still got a Slaine figure in a FF blister that had to be withdrawn 'cus the licence fell through. It's offspring is of course the Celtos range, which was originally made by the same FF team then sold on (and on).
I'm not that familiar with Bob Olleys work. I presume the SHQ ones are cheap because so few people know about them. The Iron Claw will have 1000s of nostalgic fans, remembering the White Dwarf adverts etc. I agree though, Bob's style definitely got a lot better as he got older. I worked at GW when the Iron Claw range arrived, and we 'shop floor' types were horrified by how bad they were, and how flat they were.
Bob got better while he was there, I have a Bob Olley and Slanesh Beastmen story I'll leave to another day.
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yep - some real bargains in the SHQ range re: Bob Olley - and Ral Partha Europe too.
some of his best work in their ranges.
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I have a Bob Olley and Slanesh Beastmen story I'll leave to another day.
Is that the beastmen with the penis-horns on their heads? I heard that towards the end of making Realms of Chaos beastmen, Bob did a fair few with sculpted lewd bits on them (mostly as head-crests); they got all the way through the studio approval process until somebody in casting spotted what they were... Management then stopped the whole set, and hence why they even exist at all as unreleased cast models (as opposed to just greens).
...But, it could all be hearsay (or, er, heresy) of course! lol
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yep - some real bargains in the SHQ range re: Bob Olley - and Ral Partha Europe too.
some of his best work in their ranges.
Definitely - those RPE ogres and trolls are some of the best out there.
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Is that the beastmen with the penis-horns on their heads? I heard that towards the end of making Realms of Chaos beastmen, Bob did a fair few with sculpted lewd bits on them (mostly as head-crests); they got all the way through the studio approval process until somebody in casting spotted what they were... Management then stopped the whole set, and hence why they even exist at all as unreleased cast models (as opposed to just greens).
...But, it could all be hearsay (or, er, heresy) of course! lol
I was the one that spotted them.
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I was the one that spotted them.
Oh, wow, excellent! lol lol lol
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It pays to keep ones eye on the balls.
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Nice thread, does anyone know of any links to pictures of the SHQ Elves? Why in this day and age no pictures of stuff your selling!
FFF
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Nice thread, does anyone know of any links to pictures of the SHQ Elves? Why in this day and age no pictures of stuff your selling!
Yes, this is a really good question; right up there with "why are there only low-res postage stamp sized pictures of the miniatures?" - it's not as if digital film is expensive to get developed, is it?! :-X
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Not defending anyone specifically, but remember it takes all sorts to make the world what it is. Lots of people are not technically up to date. I bumped into an old chum at the Hammerhead show on Sunday, a creative who has contributed lots to the Hobby, and he got out his Nokia 'pay as you go' phone. I said 'do you not have a smart phone?'. 'No, don't want one'. I suspect this is one individual you'll never get a digital photo from.
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Love oral histories like these. Why on earth did Olley think AA were involved with Ansell, them selling of the old TableTop rules and figs maybe?
Not defending anyone specifically, but remember it takes all sorts to make the world what it is. Lots of people are not technically up to date. I bumped into an old chum at the Hammerhead show on Sunday, a creative who has contributed lots to the Hobby, and he got out his Nokia 'pay as you go' phone. I said 'do you not have a smart phone?'. 'No, don't want one'. I suspect this is one individual you'll never get a digital photo from.
This is what makes the Lost Minis Wiki so valuable as a central source but I wish they didn't segregate the historical companies off where they're a bit forgotten.
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Love oral histories like these. Why on earth did Olley think AA were involved with Ansell, them selling of the old TableTop rules and figs maybe?
I can't quite remember. The guy who founded AA was a GW senior manager who'd just been made redundant/ pushed out. Bob had not long gone either, & I suspect left under a cloud from his boss Ansell. I think Bob got paranoid that AA was just a front for Ansell and he was back working for him again. Remember at the time Ansell was actually doing this with Marauder Miniatures, lots of people in the hobby thought it was a genuine independent company in 1990. It truly wasn't, it was a front for Ansell. lol
There was no convincing Bob, he never made a figure for AA again.
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Really good thread. I'm fairly sure the hill orcs (as they are now sold) are Bob Olley figures.
Here are my painted ones.
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Stunning work on those hill orcs, and I love how this thread has evolved to be a historical window into parts of our hobby I am completely unaware of!
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I've never seen the Hill Orcs before, but there's some clear clues it's Bob's work. I said before, he got lots better as the years went on.
I don't know if this is a fact, but he said before he began sculpting he was a surrealist painter, which definitely explains the Iron Claw range. I also recall, when I was at GW he turned up to a meeting with the mould room (where I was) with a hold-all full of cans of lager. Didn't go down well with the management lol
AA's Celtic Myth range was my idea, so I worked with Bob on the design of the Sidhe. When he delivered them, the Carnyx was proper old school Iron Claw, I remodelled it to the current model. (This is all 30 years ago mind).
I've lost my painted collection of Celtic Myth over time, but I did retain this converted standard bearer, it's in the cabinet at North Star.
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Nick, those Celtic myth guys are fantastic! :-* This stuff has a lot of charme!
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"Why in this day and age no pictures"
From talking to him, he acquired the ranges as part of a batch with ranges that actually do some business and hence he's barely unpacked the moulds/learned what's in there/got them to cast &c.
40+ yo fantasy ranges is a bit of niche thing in an already niche hobby apparently...
I did pictures of some of the ranges (mostly as a record of what was in what packs) but not the ogres. If I can ever remember/reset my password, I'll stick them in LostMinis.
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Those Celts are splendid - as are Kev's hill orcs!
I've ordered the hill orcs and am curious to see how they compare in size with the Bob Olley Ral Partha ogres. I acquired one of those yesterday, and it's hands down one of the nicest fantasy miniatures I own: understated yet bursting with character.
40+ yo fantasy ranges is a bit of niche thing in an already niche hobby apparently...
Maybe - but Reaper's current, very similar (though smaller and much more expensive) Bob Olley orcs seem to crop up all over the place, and these big fellows are every bit as good and much better value! And Olley's stuff seems to have a cult following of sorts.
There might be a comparison, too, with Nick Lund's orcs, which Mirliton and Forlorn Hope seem to sell a fair bit of, despite similar antiquity. At the very least, I'd have thought that having the designer's name front and centre would be a good idea; I can't be the only person to have googled "Bob Olley orcs" from time to time.
Would be great to see those photos!
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Olley's a bit marmite for some folk I guess - and there's the obvious 'quality' improvement in his work over time.
Although even then a few of the now essex-vendored miniatures from his early days have a certain charm as far as I'm concerned.
But I do find the best of it to be wonderfully characterful, inimitable, and as good as it gets (to my taste) as with the hill orcs above (which I've certainly assumed are his work - and available from SHQ now).
Ral Partha Europe have a lot of his work in the fantasy armies they do - not just ogres / trolls etc. (at least I assume much of it is by Olley - the figures have his trademark style in various different ways).
As regards skill improving over time, it's interesting that such improvement is a 'thing' with what is an artistic ability as much as anything else. But then it is a craft too I suppose.
I did a search on Nick Bibby the other day, ironically after receiving an alternative armies flyer (they're re-releasing some 'iconic' miniatures he sculpted way back in the day), and, er... he's come on a bit, I think it's fair to say (he's now a fine-art, naturalistic sculptor).
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Apologies for poor picture quality.
First batch are the SHQ Urucks, they are WIP and unfinished. Some conversions.
Second batch are Alternative Armies Western Orcs. I have added my own weapons.
Third picture is a comparuson pic.
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Pictures are more than sufficient. Thanks for posting them. I think SHQ will receive quite some orders in the coming days. Mine for sure!
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I've just now seen Dr Kevins previous post showcasing the SHQ Urucks in great detail, much better than my smart phone rushed pics!
They are fantastic miniatures. I was looking for similar miniatures to flesh out a full unit, so I got the AA Western Orcs to go with them. I also have Ral Parthas Orcs alongside them, which are of roughly compatible style, the "Gargantua" Orcs I think they are called. I wonder who sculpted them?
Dr Kevin or some other equally good painter should volunteer their painted miniatures for SHQ to include on their store page.
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The Gargantua Orcz are definitely Bob Olley.
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I have had a proper read back through this whole thread. Very interesting.
Who did the SHQ Dwarves? The range as advertised is not fully available. Was their other elements of the Dwarf range which ended up sold off elsewhere I wonder?
Maybe I will just pick up some Crusader Dwarves to flesh out the ones I have!
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Yeah, go Crusader Dwarves. lol
As an aside, Chas Elliot made the Fantasy Warlord Elves, as we mentioned at the beginning of the thread, but straight after he made another Elf range which by many a circuitous route are now in the possession of North Star. I'm pretty sure he used the same heads ::)
We don't keep stock, we cast a load, put the moulds away and when they are sold out they remain so till we get the moulds out again. We should be casting them again late Spring.
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So do we know who sculpted the SHQ Elves?
FFF
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Absolutely fascinating thread - cheers Nick for the extended tales of the past! As a teenager at the time getting my news from magazines, I had absolutely no clue about what was going on behind the scenes at various companies. Didn’t realise that Bob Olley was going to do all the AA celts before walking out; tbh I love Andy Cooper’s more.
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So much good stuff in this thread!
Got to say, I can barely bring myself to buy from sotes that can't even show a photo of miniatures. I figure even the most computer/phone illiterate has a family member or friend who could help.
The suggestion of adding sculptor's names so they come up in searches is a good idea.