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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: FifteensAway on July 05, 2023, 06:44:15 AM

Title: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on July 05, 2023, 06:44:15 AM
Wife and I plan to give ourselves a milestone anniversary present of a trip to UK in 2024. Timing likely to be May to align somewhat with our anniversary.

Exploring options, probably a small group tour of the UK to include all four countries (less Northern Ireland perhaps) - though Ireland might be skipped as a whole, a bit of a hem-and-haw on that front.  But that gets to be an expensive option, the small group tours.  Not keen on 40-60 person tours, very off-putting.

I like history and prehistory, museums and library (a kind of famous one in London at least), wife likes castles and garden related sites.  We both enjoy nature's beauty - though we aren't so young any more; fit, but not young - not antiquated yet but those extra grinds in the bones sort of stuff.  Wife?  Well, she just wants to go to "London" but can't say why.

Seems a counterclockwise run from London to Wales, cross to Ireland, return to England, run up to Scotland, head back south through England to London is a fairly standard 'tour' itinerary.  May make a three week trip, maybe a few days more.  Figure a few days extra in London on the front and back end.  Certainly on the front end to allow at least a day to acclimate to the time change (8 hour difference).

Some items on my wish list: Stonehenge, Lake District, Cotswold Downs (or similar), a night in a National Trust home somewhere - higher up the nobility the better (maybe?), visit Hadrian's Wall, some nice recreated living history sites, perhaps a regimental museum.  We are not drinkers though I'm willing to give a publican a visit just to see the inside of one.  We are also not smokers but I hear that shouldn't be too much of an issue.  Not sure about hiring a car and driving on the "wrong side of the road with a car with a steering wheel on the wrong side".  Old dogs, new tricks challenges.

A big maybe is to visit a miniatures show but not essential, buying days are mostly behind me, would just be to see the 'other half' way of the 'cousins'.

So, looking for input from those familiar - either you are a UK resident or an experienced traveler in the UK.  (Got some good input in another thread started by someone else so starting this one for me.). I figure others thinking of making a similar trek may find the information valuable as well.  How say you all?  Given the very broad direction of travel bit above and preferences/likes, what is a must see side trip, etc.?  And what is a purely touristy waste of time - in your opinion.  Really like to avoid excessive crowds and queues, maximize time seeing/experiencing stuff.

Thank you all.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: 2010sunburst on July 05, 2023, 07:25:33 AM
Two things spring to mind.  If you want to visit Stonehenge, then you probably need a car.  It isn’t the easiest place to get to by public transport from Salisbury (the nearest town).  There is a tourist bus from the railway station, but your own transport gives you far more flexibility.  I would spend a day in Salisbury, perhaps staying centrally, to cover Stonehenge and the Cathedral.  Salisbury Cathedral has the tallest spire in the UK and is in a wonderful setting.  I should say both are must sees in your context.  The town itself (I know it’s called a city, but it is a town in size.  I lived there for nearly sixty years) is also worth a walk around, centre being quite medieval in character.  If you extend your stay there slightly both Bovington tank museum, and Highclere castle (used as the setting for Downton Abbey) are within easy reach.  There are numerous other attractions, historical and otherwise, close by as well. 

As to driving on the wrong side, well I’ve done that in America, France, Italy, and Spain, and to be honest, it’s really not that hard.  If you hire a car, the wheel is on the “right” side for that country which makes the whole thing more intuitive.  I wouldn’t try to drive in London though, public transport is far superior there. 

Enjoy the trip  :-*
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: SJWi on July 05, 2023, 07:29:51 AM
Good Morning, I'll give your needs some considered thought and get back to you. However a pretty instant thought concerns your comment about visiting a wargames show. One of the best shows in UK is Partizan, held in Newark.  It is diarised for Sunday May 19th next year. Newark itself is roughly halfway between London and York and easily accessible by rail. As well as the show there is a small aviation museum there, plus the National English Civil War centre . Its not a tourist hot spot but could tick several boxes for you.     
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: fred on July 05, 2023, 08:07:30 AM
Sounds a good trip - with lots of time.

Probably a key question is around how much time you want to spend travelling between places (which will allow you to see the countryside in passing) vs how much time you want to spend at places exploring? Whilst the UK is fairly small when measured in miles - travel times can be quite lengthy especially between smaller places.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Lost Egg on July 05, 2023, 08:11:50 AM
Sounds like an epic trip. If you want to find out more about historic sites then check out both English Heritage and the National Trust websites, they both have maps to help figure out whats near where you're going.

If you want to avoid crowds & queues then you might want to give Stonehenge a miss. The road leading up to it is notoriously busy and congested. The site is usually very busy and I don't know if you know but you can't get close to the stones themselves. But then if thats something you particularly want to tick off on the list then go for it.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Plynkes on July 05, 2023, 08:24:06 AM
The north west corner of Wales is crammed with castles, all quite close to each other, if you are into that sort of thing. The Royal Welch Fusiliers museum inside Caernarfon Castle is also well worth a visit while you are there. You also have Conwy, Beaumaris and Harlech, among others. And the scenery of North Wales is quite breathtaking, at least if you're from a place that doesn't have 'proper' mountains.


Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: 2010sunburst on July 05, 2023, 08:40:24 AM
Sounds like an epic trip. If you want to find out more about historic sites then check out both English Heritage and the National Trust websites, they both have maps to help figure out whats near where you're going.

If you want to avoid crowds & queues then you might want to give Stonehenge a miss. The road leading up to it is notoriously busy and congested. The site is usually very busy and I don't know if you know but you can't get close to the stones themselves. But then if thats something you particularly want to tick off on the list then go for it.

The road past the Stones, A303, is quite bad, it’s the main road to the west from London, but going to and from the stones from Salisbury is actually not that bad at all.  It crosses the A303, but doesn’t use it.  It’s one of those sites where it’s worse to drive by it than to drive to it.  You can’t touch the stones, but you can walk around them, and the new visitors centre has improved the site visit immeasurable from a few years ago.   Agreed, National trust and English Heritage sites are good for planning your visit.  For gardens, the Royal Horticultural  Society site is probably worth a visit as well.  There used to be an open gardens scheme where they listed all local gardens open to the public…..Key gardens in London is also worth a visit. 
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on July 05, 2023, 08:43:02 AM
I think wise to reduce your itinerary where possible, everyone always tries to cram in too much and gets exhausted and sees nothing properly.

I would focus on a few areas and on things you generally couldn’t see in the US. 

You can do an organised day trip to Stonehenge from London if you want.  Salisbury is OK but nothing super special.  You may find stonehenge kind if underwhelming as well.  If you do hire a car go to Avebury as well for a completely different feel to an ancient monument.

Portsmouth historic dock yard is good, it’s the only place in the world you can walk around a napoleonic ship of the line.  I wouldn’t stay in Portsmouth though.  Visit the Maritime museum in Greenwich as well (in London) to complete the Nelson story.

You are never too far from a country house or castle so should be easy to build them in to whatever itinerary you come up with.  Just search the National Trust and English Heritage websites for the closest ones.

Area around Telford in Shropshire is good for history of industrial revolution with Iron Bridge and living history museum of Blist Hills.  Alternatively Beamish in County Durham is a similar set up.

York is a great place to visit.  Compact, lots of historic sights, very old in places, a cathedral, castle, railway museum and rambling medieval streets.

As beautiful as the Lake District or Scottish Highlands are to be blunt they don’t really match the wilderness of the US.

Be warned - outside the major cities and transport links public transport is rubbish.  If you want to visit the Cotswolds or Lake District you will need a car or join a tour.

Don’t bother with Wales.  Too far out of the way, mostly post industrial decline in the South and tourist walking focus in the north.

I could imagine a trip starting in London.  Get a train to Salisbury and hire a car.  Explore this western area (Portsmouth, Stonehenge, Avebury, Cotswolds, Bath are all day trips).  Then train back to London and on to York.  Few days there inc Beamish visit then onto Edinburgh as a base with perhaps day trip to Stirling.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 05, 2023, 09:28:15 AM
Duxford IWM, near Cambridge. It's an old Battle of Britaiin fighter station. Everything from tanks to WW1 Bristol Fighters. Evey chance there'll a genuine Veteran BofB Spitfire flying. In Scotland visit Edinburgh before Glasgow. In the castle there's two museums, one with the Eagle the Scots Greys took at Waterloo. Outside is the grave of Sergeant Ewart, the man who did the deed.
Lastly, make a pilgrimage to a tradition Northern seaside resort. One such place, is a pokey little resort called Cleethorpes, if you're really lucky you may find a place called 'Harry's Emporium of Priceless Artefacts/Tat.', therien you'll find a very nice man, who'll give yer a game wiv his toy sowjers!
Unlike your good self this rogue does drink, like a fish.so after he's cheated his way to victory, will take you for a pint in a proper English boozer!
Good that, innit?

 ;)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Cypher226 on July 05, 2023, 10:33:05 AM
If you want to stay in a characterful old property, I suggest you look up The Landmark Trust rather than the National Trust (few of which I think have accommodation) - though some are very isolated so a car would make this much easier.  Old English Inns is another option for characterful lodgings usually with good food.  Bath is a beautiful city with lots of excellent architecture as well.

If you try to work around going to Partizan as others have mentioned, be aware the train service from Newark is (or at least was, some years ago) very poor on a Sunday.  It looks like the air museum has been spruced up a bit in the last few years - which is good as it was looking a bit tired last time I was there.  On the subject of air museums, the Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton is superb, as is Cosford. 

Agree with almost all of the other recommendations but no-one's mentioned the Tank Museum (also within short range of Stonehenge and Salisbury), and Lawrence of Arabia's house just down the road from it (Clouds Hill) is a lovely stop.

Vindolanda is one of the finest Roman sites in the country and well worth the stop on the way to Scotland - new discoveries are being made there all the time, and the guided tours are included in the price of entry.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Redshank on July 05, 2023, 10:50:44 AM
A few thoughts on Scotland. One option is the train from London to Edinburgh. The quickest route (from King's Cross) only takes 4.5 hours. Make sure you get a seat on the right hand side going north to get a good view of the gorgeous coastal scenery on the top third of the route (and obvs try and hit that part during the day).

I would say at least a day in Edinburgh to see the castle. Edinburgh is a beautiful city, and also compact and walkable, so you could have 2 or 3 days easily there to see the art museums and wander about.

Then train to Stirling is 45 minutes. The castle is more enjoyable to visit (in my opinion) than Edinburgh. It was a main royal residence down to the 17th century and it has been nicely developed for visitors. There are attractive gardens and great views. A highlight is the museum of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. One of their parent regts the 93rd was the Thin Red Line at Balaklava; the museum has lots of stuff dating back to 18th century, including stuff on post-WW2 conflicts. Stirling also has the Wallace Monument (unmissable Victorian rocketship on top of hill to north of town with exhibits and great views from the top), and the Bannockburn battlefield with a modern visitor centre. For anyone interested in history, I think Stirling is unbeatable on sheer density of stuff. They run shuttlebuses around the key sites although a car would be easier.

If you're into Jacobites, the Sheriffmuir battlefield is a few miles from Stirling and is a pleasant walk, but there is not much historical explanation. There is a monument to the Falkirk battlefield a few miles away as well (in the other direction back towards Edinburgh), but it's probably a bit far out of your way for a 10 minute look, which is about all it's worth.

Further afield, there is a newish visitor centre at the Culloden battlefield about 3 hours north of Stirling, but on the day I went it was closed for some reason (might have been tail end of COVID).

Another way to do Scotland from London is the sleeper. It is expensive even compared to a hotel room (unless they are having a deal), but it saves you time.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: manic _miner on July 05, 2023, 11:28:45 AM
 If you are heading to Hadrians Wall you wont be too far away from Beamish Museum which is a living history site.

 https://www.beamish.org.uk/

 Holy Island might be another place to visit.

 https://www.lindisfarne.org.uk/

 Barnard Castle is another nice place.

 https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/barnard-castle/

 The Hancock Museum is another nice place in Newcastle.

 https://greatnorthmuseum.org.uk/

 York is another really nice place to visit.Some great old buildings in the Town along with the Cathederal and Jorvik Viking centre.

 https://www.google.com/search?q=york&sxsrf=AB5stBiwiFtXV-y_-p3DMlMxc9pu1fxQCA%3A1688552489290&ei=KUSlZICgEdqjhbIP3tqLmA0&ved=2ahUKEwjVqaz_rPf_AhXRbMAKHXEGDWsQnZMFegQIJBAC&oq=york&gs_lcp=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&sclient=gws-wiz-serp&si=ACFMAn8hieP5aE6nZoDwYPRSCYx59jKGmLYHjzayiK0FEhCrwFC8Qs-V2Pf1FhOoG1y71lNSTZRlPe_XEdLRJ_Nl4-dhtoa3uA%3D%3D&ictx=1

 https://www.jorvikvikingcentre.co.uk/?gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIC3pWxdHgrO6porDEQ27M6IChCOA7wEIBwa-Iud5QN2BlXRfDuKdqxoChLEQAvD_BwE#G0Xvw27pjmfK6owR.97

 https://www.yha.org.uk/experience/york-castle-museum?psafe_param=1&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIMWFNQRE9Z2FWu3zqgMjvhnKaObcnBjqHU-vZ4P6PVeZCrBN8vNpgBoCgkEQAvD_BwE

 Leeds has the Royal Armouries Museum.

 https://artuk.org/visit/venues/royal-armouries-museum-leeds-4863?gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIOVyOnDpj8jcgs58ijLRzjE-dzY18_8UP9YYWJYvNh8UBPsBHonVpBoCmakQAvD_BwE

 This site might give you a few ideas.

 https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/north-east?campid=ppc_north_regional_google_General&dfaid=1&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIJ9NAG95zhBs_TZOwRZGb6sfhIZvJ9uGdt3GiAU3MuBMfl-lhxuN1hoCG9MQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


 

 
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Panzer21 on July 05, 2023, 01:20:07 PM
If you want to stay in a characterful old property, I suggest you look up The Landmark Trust rather than the National Trust (few of which I think have accommodation) - though some are very isolated so a car would make this much easier.  Old English Inns is another option for characterful lodgings usually with good food.  Bath is a beautiful city with lots of excellent architecture as well.

If you try to work around going to Partizan as others have mentioned, be aware the train service from Newark is (or at least was, some years ago) very poor on a Sunday.  It looks like the air museum has been spruced up a bit in the last few years - which is good as it was looking a bit tired last time I was there.  On the subject of air museums, the Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton is superb, as is Cosford. 

Agree with almost all of the other recommendations but no-one's mentioned the Tank Museum (also within short range of Stonehenge and Salisbury), and Lawrence of Arabia's house just down the road from it (Clouds Hill) is a lovely stop.

Vindolanda is one of the finest Roman sites in the country and well worth the stop on the way to Scotland - new discoveries are being made there all the time, and the guided tours are included in the price of entry.

In addition to the poor rail service on a Sunday, the Newark Showground  is outside Newark with no public transport or safe walking route so a taxi would be required if you don't hire a car. Travel on Saturday and stay over? Sunday travel to say York? On same rail line.
This is also true of many of the wonderful places suggested.
The Tank Museum and Monkey World are out of the way,  nearest station Wool IIRC. Beamish is a whole day but no idea if served by public transport.
IIRC, Hadrian' s wall is served by a bus route probably infrequent and the Newcastle - Carlisle rail service is close to some sites but not all.
It would be possible to take in Salisbury and Bath in the same day with an early start, as said there is a bus to Stonehenge from Salisbury station. Bath has Georgian architecture and the Roman baths. Salisbury has the cathedral, so good Russian secret agents visit....
York is nice, can be done in a day. London and Edinburgh would need a couple of days each, or 3 for London, 2 for Edinburgh.

So London, Salisbury, Bath, Newark, York, Roman Wall, Edinburgh would be 10 breakneck days......with a lot of travel...
Neil
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Doug ex-em4 on July 05, 2023, 02:02:07 PM
Landmark Trust: This was mentioned earlier and I can recommend it. One of my daughters arranged a stay at the Martello Tower near Aldeburgh for my 75th birthday present. It was just before Christmas and was a truly unique experience - highly recommended:

 https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/search-and-book/properties/martello-tower-9317/#Overview (https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/search-and-book/properties/martello-tower-9317/#Overview)

Doug
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 05, 2023, 03:11:30 PM
Lawrence of Arabia's house just down the road from it (Clouds Hill) is a lovely stop.

Spot on there mate, just down the Road from Bovvy there's St. Nicholas Church, Moreton, and Lawrence's grave. The Church has unique etched windows, the old stained glass ones being bombed out in the war. One of our fighters downed a Dornier during the BofB, which jettisoned it's bombs, the blast blowing out the Church windows. The great Whistler etched  the new ones. In the graveyard is a 15 year old boy seaman, killed at Jutland. Further up the road, toward Wool is a separate cemetery, in it is Lawrence of Arabia's final resting place.

(https://www.britainexpress.com/images/attractions/editor/Moreton-2483-2-s.jpg)

(https://www.britainexpress.com/images/attractions/editor2/Moreton-2442.jpg)

 :)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: fred on July 05, 2023, 06:06:00 PM
As you can see from the above there is no shortage of things to see in the UK!

My suggestion would be to pick 3 or 4 key locations to stay at each for 3-5 days, and travel out from these to visit local(ish) sights. This gives you some flexibility that if travel has been tiring you can potter locally rather than knowing you have to travel to the next location.

I think the key decision to make is hire car or public transport. And this answer could vary by location. In London public transport is the best option by far. And for the centre of most other cities public transport is a good option - but once you head out then a car can be very useful. But for many of the places given above then a car is pretty needed. Hadrians wall  feels very hard to do via public transport.

If you do choose hire car - it is worth using Google Maps to check travel times - UK motorways can be busy with roadworks so journey times can be much longer than the mileage suggests. And cities are always slow (but that’s not just a UK thing).
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: v_lazy_dragon on July 05, 2023, 07:24:44 PM
For Salisbury - there's also a regimental museum (can't remember which off the top of my head) and old sarum castle on the outskirts of town - https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/old-sarum/?utm_source=Bing%20Places&utm_campaign=Local%20Listings&utm_medium=Bing%20Places%20Profiles&utm_content=old%20sarum&utm_source=awin&utm_medium=Affiliate&utm_campaign=Affiliate&awc=5928_1688581324_45985cb8b593b1a712399088a469b596

I think the town museum has a good amount of early Saxon stuff, but most of the prehistoric/bronze age stuff ended up in the museum in Devizes (good if you're driving past and into prehistory).

If you do the Cotswolds, definitely stop in Cirencester. Lovely old town, with a really good museum (Corinium) full of iron age, roman and early Saxon stuff
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on July 06, 2023, 01:33:39 PM
Well, wow.  I was hoping for a few replies and you have all given me much to digest. 

If a US trip, I would simply pick an itinerary, make appropriate reservations, and off we'd drive - or fly and then drive.

How about tips about which international airports to fly into and out of?  Best rental car (hire car) companies?  Best hotel chains to get good service and safe service?

On that front, places to avoid - especially in London and other larger cities - due to crime?

These questions are in case we opt for a do-it-yourself trip. 

One option is to string together a few smaller tours - south England, Scotland focused, etc. 

However it turns out, it is going to be a bit expensive but, " Frankly, we're worth it."  [from an old shampoo commercial quote].

Thoughts on making purchases and then shipping them 'home' along the way?  Wife Loves to shop.

Ah, and important, places to wash clothes along the way to reduce how much to pack.  Me, I can travel super light, wife, um, not so much!  Are there public self-serve laundry places?  They are ubiquitous here in California.

Oh, and on historical places to visit, I guess my preferences would line up - pike and shot era, medieval to renaissance (Robin Hood and Three Musketeers <I know, wrong country>), pre-history, ancient times, and then 20th century with WWI over WWII.  And despite what I said in the OP, Ireland is not off of the agenda, just lower in the priorities if too hard to fit in other things.

So, thanks for all the replies so far and hopefully will see more.  And I hope if I have other questions along the way, I can get additional information.

Hmm, maybe the most fun 'gaming' option would be a LAF meet-up but I think wrong time of year for that event.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: modelwarrior on July 06, 2023, 02:26:29 PM
If your going to Stonehenge which is always a bit of a disappointment I would suggest going up to Avebury stone circle as that is very impressive. Check out the White horse which is near by as well. Also the REME museum is at Lyneham.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on July 06, 2023, 02:57:04 PM
You'll find laundrets (laundromats) in almost every town to wash your clothes, used to be much more common but there is usually at least one tucked away somewhere.

I often stay at Premier Inn - they are sort of a cross between a hotel and a motel.  Usually very clean, very consistent, no real extras (so no room service or hotel bar say) but are usually reasonable value if you book ahead.  I would recommend trying at least one or two nights at a B&B. These used to be much more common (eg in Seaside towns) but you can still find them.  They can be as variable as you imagine but would give you a good chance to actually meet some fellow travelers or at least chat with your hosts.

Hire cars are the usual international lot.  Europcar are cheaper but have a tendency to try to charge you for any minor scratch or dent - even if you didn't do it.  I have found Enterprise pretty good in the past.  Hertz - expect to queue for at least an hour for your car at an airport.

Airports are much of a muchness.  Coming from the US your options are limited anyway.  Most likely Heathrow but there are direct flights to Gatwick and a few to Edinburgh and Glasgow if you want to try flying into London and out of Scotland.

Rough areas you won't be going anyway as they will be off the tourist route but nowhere in the UK is comparable to somewhere like Compton or the projects in the US.  You are not going to get car jacked because you took the wrong exit on a motorway (interstate).

I would say Pike and Shot era stuff is not massively represented in the UK other than in everyday sort of places, eg timber framed houses are common in many historic towns but actual museums or attractions that focus on that period are few and far between.  Someone has already suggested the National Civil War Center in Newark.  It's like history stops with the Tudors then starts up again with the Napoleon and no one paid much mind to what happened between or bothered to preserve it.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Hobgoblin on July 06, 2023, 10:53:32 PM
Have you considered renting a flat through Airbnb or equivalent for the longer stretches of your stay? The idea of staying in a hotel for more than a night or two is a little alien to me: when we go abroad (or on holiday in the UK), we always rent a cottage or flat, which means an escape from having to eat out all the time and more comfortable relaxation all round.

I'd very much underscore Fred's advice about not jumping around too much: given the relatively small size of the UK, basing yourself in two or three place and exploring from there makes a lot of sense. That way, if you want a day of gentle relaxation, you're not beholden to any schedule.

If I were you, I'd be looking at at least a week in both London and Edinburgh, using those as bases to explore from. That allows you to vary the pace, so that you're not spending half your time on roads or railways. It also means that you'll feel less rushed all round. And it takes care of your washing! In my experience, staying in a flat with a washing machine is a huge advantage over a hotel: who wants to spend a chunk of a holiday having to worry about emptying out washing, running dryer cycles and laundrette closing times?

You might be able to fly into London and out of Edinburgh (or at least just have an hour-long hop from Edinburgh to London), which would save you time. And if a week in each were the bookends of your trip, you'd have a bit of space to explore at a comfortable pace. You could use London as a base for anything south of York and Edinburgh as a base for the north of England and all of Scotland.

As an example, if you had seven days in Edinburgh (whether in a hotel or a rented flat), you could do something like this:

Day one: walk around central Edinburgh: climb Arthur's Seat and then take in the National Museum (or vice versa). Perhaps add in one or both of the castle and Holyrood Palace if you feel so inclined.

Day two: take a tour bus to Northumbria to see Hadrian's Wall/and or castles - this kind of thing (https://www.rabbies.com/en/england-tours/from-edinburgh/day-tours/hadrians-wall-roman-britain-the-scottish-borders-day-tour?gclid=CjwKCAjwqZSlBhBwEiwAfoZUIEXrv5LkcYXmav1VT3tT3Va5GWbl_z51ljCJsmlc_OVQDKRiq0lMphoCbdAQAvD_BwE) (there are lots of others).

Day three: do more central-Edinburgh things: one or two of the big art galleries; the castle or the palace if you didn't visit them on day one; the Botanic Gardens; and a wander through the Old and New Towns in the process.

Day four: do something involving the sea: a train and bus to the East Neuk of Fife and the Elie Chain Walk if you're feeling agile and adventurous; a train down the coast to North Berwick (and perhaps a taxi on to Tantallon Castle); or a boat trip out to Inchcolm Island, etc. Perhaps do a ghost tour or a history tour in the evening if you're feeling lively.

Day five: take the train to Stirling and visit the castle. You can see Bannockburn from it; you could visit the site easily enough if you want to. If you start early, you could stop off in Linlithgow to see the old palace on the way back.

Day six: visit Glasgow (50 minutes by train and lots to see - plus better shopping than Edinburgh, or so I'm told); mount another raid on Northumberland via a tour (castles if you did Hadrian's Wall before); take a tour to the Highlands; or just explore Edinburgh some more: there are dozens of museums and other things to see and do.

Day seven: relax! But if you have an evening or afternoon flight, you could stroll around the Meadows, walk up Blackford Hill (great views!), walk up Calton Hill (ditto) or visit a few more museums or galleries.

The point about all this is that there are few fixed points: you'd probably have to book the Hadrian's Wall excursion in advance, but if you did that and then fancied another tour later in the week, you'd be able to book one up with a day or two's notice (in May, certainly). So you could take things at your own pace. I'd recommend a similar approach to London and the south: have the odd fixed point, but otherwise go at the pace that suits you at the time.

One point on trains: others have quite rightly pointed out the costs and hassle of train journeys: that certainly applies to big trips (London-Edinburgh or London-York, for example). For those, you're best booking online, which probably entails a fixed departure and return. For more local trips, though - Edinburgh-Glasgow or Edinburgh-Stirling or London-Salisbury, for example - you can just turn up at the station and buy a day return. Those kinds of local trains tend to be fairly regular and reliable. If I want to go to Glasgow, for example, I just roll down to the station and buy a ticket a few minutes before the train leaves (and there will be one every half-hour at least).

Distances by train are worth considering. Here are a few top-of-the-head/recent-memory examples:

London-Edinburgh: 4.5-5 hours (York is roughly the mid-point; Newcastle is three-quarters of the way north)
London-Salisbury: 2 hours
London-Oxford: 1 hour
Edinburgh-Glasgow: 50 minutes
Edinburgh-Newcastle: 1.5 hours
Edinburgh-Durham: 1.75 hours
Edinburgh-Falkirk: half an hour
Edinburgh-Linlithgow: 20 minutes
Edinburgh-Berwick-upon-Tweed: 1 hour (Berwick's an interesting and historic point in its own right; great castles a short taxi or bus ride away).

Hope that's some help, even if just conceptually!
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Rickf on July 06, 2023, 11:28:30 PM
I'm going to throw something in the mix. You are going to get a million suggestions of 'my town is the best' You're probably better off, on a first visit, of doing the classic tourist thing. A few days in London, following a typical tourist itinerary. A couple of days in Lincoln or York, looking at cathedrals, castles and museums. A few days in Scotland, doing the tourist thing. These can all be done on the central rail line and main airports. Then get home, think about what you liked and what you wished you'd seen,. Then the next visit can be more focussed on certain interests.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on July 07, 2023, 01:44:54 AM
Here in the states we have Extended Stay American hotels - rent for a week for reasonable nightly rates.  These have a kitchen, etc. (not sure about laundry but probably on site).  Does the UK have such beasts?

Sometimes they are working men/trucker type hotels but other times more family oriented.  Thoughts?

The base for a week idea has been considered before posting, just not sure since it so far "over the horizon".   Not sure about vacation rentals/AirBnBs - those tend to be absurdly pricey here.  Rather stay at a well known and reputable hotel like Premiere than a "who knows what you really get" place, pretty pictures on the internet, foul closet through the door.  Far too many horror stories - some of them true horror stories, not just 'bad' experiences.  Googled a place in London that was about $380 a night!  For that price, a 4 star hotel minimum - and that provides services. 

Please keep the ideas flowing.  They are truly appreciated and helpful.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: SJWi on July 07, 2023, 05:54:36 AM
Not so sure about "extended stay hotels" in UK. In my experience truckers/other workers tend to stay in places such as Premier Inn, Holiday Inn Express or the IBIS chain. They are pretty basic but fine for 1-2 nights.  Unfortunately the centre of London itself is ridiculously expensive. You might want to base yourself outside London and take the train in. For instance I live in Stevenage about 20 miles north of London. It is 30 minutes by rail into the N London terminal but the Premier Inn in Stevenage can sometimes be found for around £100 per night. You might also want to check out the Eurail or BritRail pass. These are a rail passes where you buy so many days rail travel in UK/Europe for use in 1-2 months. From what I can see they have to be bought before you enter the EU or UK. 10 days travel might be say $500 per person. Maybe not worth it for short journeys but if you plan a series of long journeys between cities probably a cost effective way of going by train.         
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 07, 2023, 10:03:32 AM
Please keep the ideas flowing.  They are truly appreciated and helpful.

We have a saying here in Blighty...

"Don't air yer dirty washing in public!"

Bring a great pile of mucky clobber (that's clothes, where we come from) to our pokey little seaside resort. The ladies can do the washing and drying, while me and thee play toy sowjers!

 lol
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on July 10, 2023, 03:29:05 AM
Sounds fun Harry!  :D. (been away a few days at a convention in Clovis, CA (near Fresno, California).  Reports in proper threads later.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Ethelred the Almost Ready on July 10, 2023, 10:24:22 AM
It has now been some time since we were last in the UK (the last time I was there either side of going to the 200th anniversary of Waterloo).   There is just so much to do in a small area - no holiday will be long enough to do everything you want.  I have listed a few things I particularly enjoyed. 

A few fun London things:
Foyles book shop in Charring Cross.  Five floors of books, plenty of places to sit and read and a café to help keep your strength up.
The British Museum is my favourite museum in London.  “Two million years of human history and culture”.
For some culture, check out what is on at the Globe.  When I was last in London they also offered a pre-performance lecture, discussing both the play and its historical context.
A day in Greenwich is nice and you can always go to the Imperial War Museum.

I saw Stone Henge in 1993, back when you could get up close.  Avoiding it now seems good advice.  If you want standing stones, I have always enjoyed Avebury.  Plenty there to keep you busy for a day and it has a slightly spooky atmosphere (to be fair, both times I was there in winter and it was foggy).

Bath has already been mentioned.  For lunch book in for the Pump Room – dine in Georgian splendour.  Last time I was there it was looking a little shabby, but the food was good.  Lunch is accompanied by a live trio or pianist.  It might not be of interest to an American, but for we antipodeans it is worth going to Sally Lunn’s Historic Eating House – the real Sally Lunn is very different from what we have in New Zealand and Australia.

I see you mention you are fit but not so young any more.  Why not get some e-bikes and cycle alongside Hadrian’s Wall?  We are doing just that in about five weeks time.

How about Chester?  Plenty of parks and gardens and you wife might like shopping in the Chester Rows.   You can walk the walls, go on a ghost tour.

I can't tell you much about Ireland - too much Guinness and Bush Mills.  I do remember watching Michael Collins and coming out of the theatre to see the GPO, which was being shelled at the start of the movie, across from me.   

Have fun planning your holiday.
I will try to post something about Hadrians Wall when we get back.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: fastolfrus on July 10, 2023, 09:54:18 PM
For Hadrian's Wall, apart from the main sites (such as Vindolanda or Housesteads) there's a place at South Shields called Arbeia that might be of interest:
https://arbeiaromanfort.org.uk/

If you find yourself in Scarborough (seaside resort in North Yorkshire) we have a gaming club meets Mondays and Thursdays. We also have a reasonable castle (besieged a couple of times in the 1640s) and some small provincial museums.
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/scarborough-castle/
If you are into Harry Potter, the filming site for Hogsmead station isn't far away (and the same steam rail line was used in the latest Mission Impossible film too).
https://www.nymr.co.uk/Pages/Category/media

If you are keen on Dracula, his stomping ground is 20 miles north of here
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/whitby-abbey/

If you are concerned about luggage allowance and clothing, there are lots of charity shops (thrift stores) where you can usually find reasonable clothes to bulk out your luggage if you don't find a launderette.

As for the earlier comment about Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, it has HMS Victory and the Mary Rose, but also the Victorian HMS Warrior, and the naval museum
https://historicdockyard.co.uk/
Portsmouth has a castle nearby, Portchester (started out as a Roman site), https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/portchester-castle/
and also Southsea Castle (a Tudor site) https://southseacastle.co.uk/
 
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on July 10, 2023, 11:08:12 PM
Hotels have gotten hugely expensive. I would agree strongly with the AirBnB route. Any place you rent will have a washing machine so you can do laundry as you go for no extra expense.
Nobody seems to have mentioned so far.....eat at Wetherspoons! Food there is good and cheap. I have had steaks in my local good old Spoons as fine as any in a fancy restaurant at three times the price. The Jack Daniels Honeyglaze sauce is an option.
Driving in UK is going to be frustrating perhaps if you have never been. In USA people seem to actually load the kids in the car and go out on long drives for PLEASURE. UK is smaller and the roads are almost continually congested with traffic, stop-start stop start. And PARKING the car is a major headache in any town, which will cost you money, which it is best to have in actual coinage. Don't even THINK about driving a car through London.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Cerdic on July 16, 2023, 08:09:44 PM
Just a quick point about pubs.

You mentioned being not really drinkers and not being particularly bothered about visiting a pub. Thing is, pubs are great places to eat at a good value price. You needn’t feel pressured to drink alcohol, especially with a meal. They will serve soft drinks and coffee and so on.

Maybe avoid the sort of pubs that have a big banner outside about their massive TV showing football…!
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Ninefingers on July 18, 2023, 01:56:06 PM
I would also echo the people who have mentioned Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. For one ticket price you get a Victorian ironclad (HMS Warrior), a Napoleonic ship of the line (HMS Victory), and the remains of a Tudor galleon salvaged from the sea (Mary Rose) in a fascinating museum. The National Museum of the Royal Navy is also there and included.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on July 21, 2023, 11:54:46 AM

Don’t bother with Wales.  Too far out of the way, mostly post industrial decline in the South and tourist walking focus in the north.


Yeah, I'm currently sitting here, enduring the view of the 'post-industrial decline' of the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park and in the distance across the bay I can see the Blade-Runneresque hell-hole that is the Gower Peninsula.  Turning around I can see the awful, grim Preseli Hills, where the Stonehenge Bluestones were dragged from (I imagine they couldn't wait to get away) and away to the east, across miles and miles of truly dire, green, hedgerowed 'Bocage Country' are the carbuncles of the Black Mountains and Brecon Beacons.

Simply awful.

So much so, I'm going to have to drown my sorrows later in the Carew Inn.  The mill-pond, castle and Celtic Cross across the road are of unsurpassed ugliness...

 ::)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Harry Faversham on July 21, 2023, 12:21:40 PM
Taffys are also very thin skinned, and will bitchslap anyone criticising their valleys. Wasn't a big fan of the Brecon Beacons myself, they kind of make yer back ache and yer feet sore!

;D
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on July 21, 2023, 12:31:54 PM
Taffys are also very thin skinned, and will bitchslap anyone criticising their valleys. Wasn't a big fan of the Brecon Beacons myself, they kind of make yer back ache and yer feet sore!

;D

 lol  :P   ;D

Yeah, if you think we're bad, you should see the bloody neighbours...  ;)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on July 21, 2023, 02:01:35 PM
Yeah, I'm currently sitting here, enduring the view of the 'post-industrial decline' of the Pembrokeshire Coast National Park and in the distance across the bay I can see the Blade-Runneresque hell-hole that is the Gower Peninsula.  Turning around I can see the awful, grim Preseli Hills, where the Stonehenge Bluestones were dragged from (I imagine they couldn't wait to get away) and away to the east, across miles and miles of truly dire, green, hedgerowed 'Bocage Country' are the carbuncles of the Black Mountains and Brecon Beacons.

Simply awful.

So much so, I'm going to have to drown my sorrows later in the Carew Inn.  The mill-pond, castle and Celtic Cross across the road are of unsurpassed ugliness...

 ::)

Little England doesn’t count! 

If you only had two weeks would you go all the way to Pembrokeshire?  Especially if you aren’t outdoors/walking focussed?  My family is from Cardigan and have visited many times but I wouldn’t recommend it to someone for their only ever trip to the UK.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Radar on July 22, 2023, 06:09:22 AM
If you haven't visited the UK before don't be over ambitious about distances. It can take a very long time to travel relatively short distances (in comparison to the US). Plan ahead - you can save an awful lot of money by purchasing membership of organisations such as National Trust, English Heritage, CADW (Welsh castles), Historic Houses Association, or Art UK. If the majority of destinations you would like to visit are National Trust properties for example then it might work out a lot cheaper (rough admission price per NT venue is about £15 a head - joint membership is £139 so if 5 or more properties are on your hit list you'll save money). There are a handful of concessions - National Trust members get into Stonehenge free even though it is 'English Heritage '. Do your research!

For detailed mapping the definitive maps are Ordnance Survey. Which again can work out expensive. Bing maps has the OS layer tucked away on the desktop site, but not on mobile phones. Plan ahead, print your maps out for free at home (print screen, paste into MS Paint is the work around for printing)

Ticket prices for a number of places are often much cheaper if you are able to book online a day or so in advance, Warwick Castle is £26 in advance but £39 if you turn up and pay on the day!

Pike and shot is incredibly well represented, there was the small matter of the Wars of the Three Kingdoms. Probably the best places for W3K/BCW/ECW are London, York (& Marston Moor), Worcester, and Newark. Although wherever you go you can probably find some stuff related to the conflict. Have a look at KeepYourPowderDry.co.uk and the posts tagged ECWtravelogue. Most of the major battlefields are already covered. Major towns (that have a civil war connection: York, London, Oxford, Coventry, Birmingham, Newark are covered), plus counties have their own post too. There's also a few oddities that crop up too - Rupert's March North to York, and some standalone properties.

There's a ton of civil war related stuff in London (museums, pubs, plaques, Tower of London, art galleries, 2 battlefields and a whole host of other stuff). York gives you Civil War, Romans, Vikings and medieval stuff by the bucket load.

A couple of less well known places that are simply brilliant are: Combined Military Services Museum (best collection of W3K arms and armour on display in the UK outside Royal Armouries, and WW2 uniform collection), The Wallace Collection (tucked away in London they have a superb armour collection)

Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on July 22, 2023, 10:47:50 AM
Little England doesn’t count! 

If you only had two weeks would you go all the way to Pembrokeshire?  Especially if you aren’t outdoors/walking focussed?  My family is from Cardigan and have visited many times but I wouldn’t recommend it to someone for their only ever trip to the UK.
Oh indeed.  It was the bit about 'post-industrial decline' that made me laugh.  It'll take a few decades of development to get us to reach 'pre-industrial'... ;)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 12, 2023, 01:45:29 PM
After much hemming and hawing - and even, briefly, going back to the cruise concept which got promptly dumped when the 'excursions' were found to be $600 per person for the exact same thing a tour bus tour might charge about $50 for, who are they kidding! - I think we will fall back on a Highlights of Britain tour that is only 10 days but arrive early in London to have at least one day to acclimate to the time difference and see a bit of the town and then add probably 5 more days at the end to see even more of London, so that is about 17 days in country and a couple more days for travel time to and from.

The tour, while not my ideal choice, is vastly less expensive and the one in mind actually gets all the 'states' from London north to Scotland then across to Northern Ireland then more time (a little too much but 'oh, well') in Ireland and then back east to Wales and crossing southern England, including Stonehenge, before a return to London.  Good part about Ireland is it will be a bit of a chance to see the country that my late mother so wanted to visit but wasn't able to make happen, so I will be celebrating her by being there.

And, weather be damned, sticking with earlier half of May - summers across the planet have become insanely problematic if this year is any indication.  Hell, even Hawaii has been decimated by a terrible - and very deadly - fire, and no volcano involved.  So, summer is off our radar for international travel.

Can't leave Stonehenge out no matter the nature of the experience - it is a key item on the "Bucket List".  But Avesbury would be a cool option.  If I was on my own, I'd be up for a six month stay as a 'volunteer' on some archaeological dig - pre-history is a passion (which will get exercised with Neolithic gaming sometime soon).

So, thanks for all the ideas and, who knows, there is still time to go back towards the original plan.  But if we go with the tour, it will at least give us a good sense of where we might like to spend more time on the next visit (after a few other places in Europe get a shot).

And, sorry, Harry, I don't think there will be time for that game - much as I'm sure it would be a kick to get together.

Again, thanks for all the constructive input. 

Here is a sketch of the itinerary so feel free to add any helpful comments:

Day 1 Welcome to London
Day 2 Stratford-upon-Avon, York and on to Harrogate
Day 3 Through the Scenic Lake District to Glasgow
Day 4 Explore Enchanting Edinburgh
Day 5 Cross the Irish Sea to Belfast and Dublin
Day 6 Discover Diverse Dublin Dive Into Culture
Day 7 Journey to Kilkenny and on to Waterford Dive Into Culture
Day 8 Ferry Across to Cultural Cardiff Connect with Locals
Day 9 Soak up Bath and Stonehenge then off to London
Day 10 Farewell London

Might not be quite as hoped but the cost savings may exceed $10,000 US!  That's a few coins.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Von Trinkenessen on August 12, 2023, 02:19:34 PM
OMG If it's Tuesday it's Belgium.
As a former 5* hotel concierge, the distances in the UK are very deceptive as the transport network is rather clunky, remember it is not just driving on a different side of the road it is all the corners and the size of the road now combined with an ever changing speed limit and speed cameras. Some of the intersting places are in the middle of nowhere. See you in Bath on day 9 if you survive  lol lol lol
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Citizen Sade on August 12, 2023, 02:23:50 PM
I don’t want to rain on your parade, but I feel I should offer a word of caution. That’s a lot of places to visit in ten days. As you’ll be spending a lot of the time travelling between places, the visits are likely to be frantic and I doubt you’ll have much opportunity to do your own thing.

Your itinerary brings to mind my one and only cruise. It was for our honeymoon so I wanted to splash the cash and see as much as we could with a view to revisiting the places we liked. The half day excursions, generally to smaller places e.g. Ajaccio, were great and allowed us to do our own thing afterwards. The see it all in a day ones to Rome & Florence were whistle-stop tours and a bit of a grind. Another consideration is other people. If you don’t get on with people on a cruise excursion, you can easily avoid them for the rest of the holiday. On an organised tour, I expect things will be different.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: BeneathALeadMountain on August 12, 2023, 03:35:39 PM
JemimaFawr - I’m glad you weighed in. Usually I’d be fine with people telling others not to come here - but Fifteens seems like good people!  lol

Fifteens - If you do come to South Wales/Cardiff (highest density of castles in Europe/some great museums/birthplace of voting rights/possible dragons etc) and fancy rolling some dice there is a large gaming store with tables; so if you’d like to meet up whilst your better half naps/rampages in the shopping/food/parks/areas of her choice, I’d be more than happy to try and provide us a game to play (it’ll give me something to aim for with painting :D )

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 12, 2023, 05:57:41 PM
It is a whirlwind tour for sure, 1241 miles and 28 hours of travel time over the ten days per Google Maps, and concentrated in the central 8 days because day 1 and day 10 are both London.  I figure after sleep, meals, and necessaries, 12 hours x 8 days is 96 hours which after 28 hours of travel leaves 68 hours of 'on the ground' time which is a bit over 8 hours per day.  Maybe the ferry rides to and from Ireland will be nice and relaxing.  Some days will be better, some days worse, probably day 2 the 'hardest'.  But not too horrible.  But, yeah, some of the highlights will be more along the "blurry sight as you drive by".  Life is always full of compromises. 

We once did a week of travel through 5 states in and around Washington, DC, and put about 1600 miles on our rental car - so we have a good sense of what to expect from that perspective.

As to less than desirable traveling companions, well, just have to hope for the best and know we can move around on the bus if needed.  Hopefully!   :o

Andrew, that game just might be possible.  What is the name of the store and its address?  I will Google it and compare it to our hotel - the 'planned' evening is with some local Welsh family and a 'farewell' dinner before the haul east to London on day 9.  Will be rather dependent on the wife, of course, since the whole trip is premised on her desire to "go to London".  However, since it seems to be a winery stop, I think she might be okay with missing it.

Looks like our accommodations in London will be in Lambeth and not too far from Waterloo station so, as seen from afar, within walking distance of most of the things we want to see in London.  For us, a 2 mile walk is no big deal, especially at a leisurely pace.  So a day with 5-6 miles of total walking is pretty doable.  Part of our morning routine is a brisk 2 mile walk.

As to me, I am generally pretty easy going and care more about an enjoyable game than winning a game - though winning is usually, though not always, more fun.  lol   And getting a visual treat. 

Thanks for the additional input and I continue to welcome more.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: BeneathALeadMountain on August 12, 2023, 06:36:53 PM
I could meet yourself (and anyone else within range) at Firestorm Games in Cardiff (Firestorm Games, Sloper Road, Cardiff, CF11 8AB) and it’s often open late so it makes it possible to fit something in if you wanted. I’m also aware that you are doing a whistle stop tour of the whole island and it may not be feasible/you may not be up to it (but I’d be happy to if you want).

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Von Trinkenessen on August 12, 2023, 06:40:47 PM
One thing that is quite important is to source travel sickness meds that work for you as some of these roads are going to be crazy compared to the US. Irish sea not always calm can have a bit of a reputation.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 12, 2023, 08:07:28 PM
Looks like, if all goes according to plan, the Cardiff day would be Monday, May 13th.  Not sure how much of a pinch that might put into plans to meet - and I would be happy to meet other LAF folk if within range and it is workable. Over here, Mondays are sometimes closure days for some hobby businesses and definitely earlier closure times. 

I'm pretty certain wife won't want to miss Cardiff Castle (nor I, really) which may be the last stop before the 'rural' jaunt we might choose to miss.  So, an earlier meet might be problematic.  Will check details as we get deeper into the process.

Oh, and I can 'prioritize' a meetup by telling the wife this is one of my 'personal priorities' for the trip!  She is generally indulgent of my hobby.

Looks like shop is about three miles from hotel.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on August 12, 2023, 08:43:47 PM
One good tip is to check who owns the sites you plan to visit.  If you're planning to visit a lot of sites owned by the National Trust or English Heritage, you might find it more cost-effective to buy a year's membership of one or both of those organisations, giving you free entry to all their sites.  I often find that our annual membership of English Heritage pays for itself during a few days of visiting castles and parking in their car parks (we first got it when on holiday in Kent - it paid for itself in just three days of visiting Dover Castle, Walmer Castle and a couple of others).

E.g. Annual couple's membership of English Heritage is presently a little over £100.  https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/join/PPCJoin/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&gad=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMInb7po-fXgAMVYolQBh1cOAkhEAAYASAAEgJzwPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The cost of two adults' entry to Stonehenge is £58:  https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/prices-and-opening-times/

So if you visit two or three more English Heritage sites, the membership will pay for itself and if you get it now, it'll insulate you against 2024 ticket price-rises.  It'll also get you a 50% discount for tickets to Heritage Scotland and Cadw (Wales) sites, plus a load of other associated sites: https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/members-area/associated-attractions/

Re your itinerary, sorry, but you're trying to pack FAR too much in!  You'll see a lot of motorway and not much else.  Day 2 is particularly impossible, given that the Midlands is basically a car-park during the day.  I'd pick Stratford OR York and forget Harrogate.  Then forget the Lake District and Glasgow - just go straight to Edinburgh.  You'll also spend days driving around Ireland, without time to see anything. 

There are only two ferry crossings per day from Rosslare to Fishguard - at 0730 and 1930.  Crossing time is about 3 1/2 to 4 hours if the weather's good (which it often isn't), plus 1/2 hour to disembark and minimum two hours driving to Cardiff.  So assuming you take the 0730 ferry, you'll arrive in Cardiff at around 1400, which wouldn't give you a lot of time to see anything, once getting into your hotel and out into town is factored in.  Last entry to the superb (and free!) National Museum of Wales is at around 1600 and last entry to Cardiff Castle is at around 1700, so you'd need to pick one - you won't have time to do both.

Going from Cardiff to Bath, then Stonehenge and on to London in one day is certainly possible, but not if you're then planning to do stuff in London on the same day. Bath and Stonehenge will take the whole day (you could even include Avebury and perhaps a stop in lovely Marlborough - I'd also go to The Crown pub in Aldbourne, where the 'Band of Brothers' had their headquarters and where there's a nice little museum you can look at while having a lovely bar meal before going on to London), but you'd arrive in London well into the evening and too late to visit any touristy sites.

Personally, given only ten days, I'd bin Ireland and Wales altogether (  :'( ), as well as Stratford (the enduring popularity of that place is a complete mystery to me, though it is where I bought my first wargames magazine while visiting the place as a terminally-bored teenager) and spend more time in London, York and Edinburgh, with a quick sally out to Bath, Stonehenge and Avebury.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: BeneathALeadMountain on August 12, 2023, 09:15:40 PM
Sadly I think Jemima’s overall cautionary note may be sage advice. You are going to be very busy. Along the line of the old adage “Americans think 100 years is a long time and the British think 100 miles is a long way” whilst we are a small country we are not particularly easy or quick to travel through/around (especially without prior knowledge/experience).

Alas Monday is an early(ish) closing day of 6:00pm for the store (If I see the owner I will attempt to bribe him to open later).

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 13, 2023, 03:30:34 AM
I think I need to remind that the itinerary I listed is for an organized group tour, not a personal itinerary developed by me.  And on entry to sites, that is included in the cost of the tour.  And I do understand that doing such a whirlwind tour will have its inherent hazards and likely some disappointments.  But, as said, compromise is an essential part of life.  And saving that money likely means a photo safari to Africa will be the next trip - and I expect that trip to Africa will be the most expensive one we will ever take.  But, again, there is that whole Bucket List thing.

Not surprised the store in Cardiff closes early on the given day but with so much advance notice, there may be a way to make something happen.  Once we solidify our plans a bit more, might be worth getting a poll of who would want to attend and then approach the shop about hosting a late game.  And if it all works out in the end, I'd want to know if there is a nearby pub where I could stand a round of stout, or whatever the pleasure is, for the participants.  I'll still be doing a soda - and happily be the butt of 'light weight' jokes.  My shoulders are broad enough to handle it!   :D lol

Oh, wait, did I just extend an invitation to every lush on LAF in range!?!?!?  :o
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on August 13, 2023, 04:18:33 AM
I think I need to remind that the itinerary I listed is for an organized group tour, not a personal itinerary developed by me.  And on entry to sites, that is included in the cost of the tour.  And I do understand that doing such a whirlwind tour will have its inherent hazards and likely some disappointments.  But, as said, compromise is an essential part of life.  And saving that money likely means a photo safari to Africa will be the next trip - and I expect that trip to Africa will be the most expensive one we will ever take.  But, again, there is that whole Bucket List thing.

Not surprised the store in Cardiff closes early on the given day but with so much advance notice, there may be a way to make something happen.  Once we solidify our plans a bit more, might be worth getting a poll of who would want to attend and then approach the shop about hosting a late game.  And if it all works out in the end, I'd want to know if there is a nearby pub where I could stand a round of stout, or whatever the pleasure is, for the participants.  I'll still be doing a soda - and happily be the butt of 'light weight' jokes.  My shoulders are broad enough to handle it!   :D lol

Oh, wait, did I just extend an invitation to every lush on LAF in range!?!?!?  :o
Aha!  I missed that essential nugget of information!  lol

Bloody hell, they're certainly packing it in!  :D  Well at least you won't be doing the driving, so that'll help. :)

Pack plenty of sick-bags for the Irish Sea... And as it'll be breeding season, I hope you don't get delayed too much by Arafs when passing through west Wales.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 13, 2023, 07:27:58 AM
Araf breeding season?  No worries.  I've survived vast herds of jackalopes - and without getting gored by their antlers.   ;)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on August 13, 2023, 08:30:00 AM
I’m going to be blunt, that tour looks terrible.  Pretty much everything people advised against!

All you will see is the inside of a coach and some mediocre hotels.  A particular highlight is travelling from London to Stratford, then onto York then onto Harrogate.  What the hell are you going to be doing in these places?  York is a great place to visit, I would say you could easily spend three days there, you appear to have three hours if that.  Farcical.  The only reason for such a trip is to be able to say you’ve been there.  You sure as hell won’t experience much.

It also sounds exhausting.  You will get stuck in traffic, you will be waiting for the slowest ditherer at every stop, the Irish Sea is notoriously rough, rural roads are windy.  Just 🤮
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: 2010sunburst on August 13, 2023, 09:55:30 AM
Buddy, for the distance you’ve quoted I would factor in a good forty hours travel time.  Most journeys in the UK average around forty miles an hour unless it’s pure motorway (which this isn’t) especially in something the size of a coach.  I know Google says different, but trust us, Google is wrong.  Day two will be a travel blur, so I would seriously think about clipping that one a little.  Have fun though.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Mindenbrush on August 13, 2023, 12:54:36 PM
A friend of mine is just back from a 3 week trip of the UK.

He started with a Geek Nations Tours https://geeknationtours.com/ that did Bovington, all the manufacturers in Nottingham and some museums/castles.

He then hired a car to do some sightseeing on his own, his only complaint was that the GPS/SatNav system kept dropping off and there are way too many cars in the UK. He did say that his journeys took an extra 25/30% over the estimated time but he suggested that the GPS/SatNav issues and being a more ‘defensive’ driver slowed him down.

I go back to the home country quite often, going again in two weeks, and use WAZE on my phone rather than any in car GPS/SatNav as I also had issues with an in car system in 2017.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Doug ex-em4 on August 13, 2023, 04:14:59 PM
I always use Google maps for navigating here (UK) and European mainland. Haven’t used a SATNAV device in years.

Doug
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 14, 2023, 05:38:25 PM
I do continue to explore options - though on the tour front.

Here is part of the dilemma - the tour listed above is about $2400 per person, those that are less expensive are very off season and very wrong time for us.  The smaller group tours are at or above $5000 per person - and they have the inherent hazard of possibly not happening if enough people don't pony up for the tour (which can mean no tour and no time to reschedule in a timely or 'cost effective' manner).  Another tour that is similar but skips Ireland so not quite so crowded a schedule is about $3500 per person.  And most of them have very similar itineraries.  So, it all seems a matter of pick your poison.  One potential fall back is to just pick a smaller area to cover, like just do south England and maybe Wales - but that is on the back burner for now.  A whirlwind rest of Britain and a leisurely time tooling around London might be a nice compromise.

It is proving to be an adventure.  One reason for continuing to hunt for tours is digging deeper into the reviews of the one identified is that the hotels were somewhat problematic.  I suspect - and would be curious as to other's views - is that Americans will, generally, be somewhat disappointed by British hotels since we are rather spoiled for choice, especially on the more economical side of the equation, even in many - though hardly all - rural areas.  I suspect the further away from major cities in Britain that the options are not as commodious as over here.  Feel free to disabuse me if I am off base. 

I've heard that a daily hot shower is not a norm in Europe whereas that is a 'basic essential' from our perspective.  And I certainly understand that may be the case where fresh water supplies are more limited.  [Here in the west, water usage is insane, green grass yards in the desert, golf courses in arid Phoenix using 750,000 gallons of water a day!  That's just nuts.  We took out our grass lawn more than a decade ago - and replaced with either native plants or fruit and vegetables.]

One itinerary on several tours is Gretna Green which just seems weird but maybe it is because we live so close to Reno, Nevada - infamous for quick weddings, though not as nutty as Las Vegas (talk about a crazy place!).

Do need to make a decision relatively soon to lock in the prices and flights and all that jazz.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Citizen Sade on August 14, 2023, 05:53:10 PM
Hotels in the UK are largely speaking an urban thing. There are budget chains such as Premier Inn. Many Brits will stay at a pub or a B&B (Bed & Breakfast) instead. B&Bs are often family-run offering a personal touch and take pride in their cooked breakfasts. All the ones I've stayed at have been a room with en suite shower and toilet facilities. My experience with them has been excellent, but check the reviews on booking.com or similar.




Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Von Trinkenessen on August 14, 2023, 06:42:47 PM
Just a word of caution,Britain has a national sport of ripping off 'Rebel Colonists'.
A lot of tour companies are just after the Yankee Dollar, so you could get stuck with a english language as a second or third +driver/guide who is reading from the same guide book as you ( have seen it happen).
From your point of view if you go with the whistle stop / sound bite tour it is worth researching the route and what historical things can be seen from the bus so as to not to miss out on our too much history per mile also not rely on the driver / guide who hopefully will be a fountain of all knowledge.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: fred on August 14, 2023, 06:44:28 PM
I can’t think of single hotel I have stayed in, in the UK where a shower wasn’t available. Virtually always en suite. Very occasionally in a B&B with a single room the bath room might have been in a separate nearby room.

The Premier Inn chain is a pretty good option. Nothing great, but pretty cheap, very very consistent, good beds decent sized rooms, very corporate, but therefore reliable.

Small hotels and B&Bs can be much more varied, but you will get a lot more flavour from them, some of these are great others not so much.

Avoid Britannia Group hotels, uniformly dreadful.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Leifr Eiríksson on August 14, 2023, 06:57:33 PM
That is a wild itinerary you have there, I really don't think it's manageable from day two.
Stratford to York is a four hour car journey when the traffic is good, and then you also want to cram in Harrogate (another hour) on top - lord! My dude, I really think you need to focus the tour on a smaller part of the country because it's doomed to be spent in a bus - British roads are not reliable, British cities are generally unpleasant to drive in to and out of, and you're grossly misunderstanding the distances involved against time spent.

Hotels have always had hot showers, and generally even baths, for as long as I care to remember. Whoever told you that daily hot showers are inaccessible here is having you on.  lol
I echo the above comment though to end; avoid Britannia Group hotels, they are terrible across the board.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: BeneathALeadMountain on August 14, 2023, 07:49:17 PM
Jemima - having university’d in surfing on the Gower I once had a housemate who’s sister in law (when visiting by train then being driven around) had asked where the air base was and what flew out of it because it must have been important to have signs all over the roads warning of the A(bertawe)RAF  lol.

Fifteens I will investigate the possibility of out of hours gaming at firestorm and report back.

Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Doug ex-em4 on August 14, 2023, 10:54:22 PM
I’m pretty sure we discovered showers here some time ago so that shouldn’t be a problem. As regards the standard of UK hotels vs US, I don’t think either country is universally good or universally bad. I’ve stayed in some motels in the US that were very "average"

.
Just a word of caution,Britain has a national sport of ripping off 'Rebel Colonists'.

No - it doesn’t. Some people are rip-pff merchants (you find them everywhere in the world) but there isn’t  a national plot to cheat Americans. :)

Doug
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Hobgoblin on August 15, 2023, 10:52:27 AM
I'd echo what many others have said about that tour: it looks horrific! A coach is no way to see Britain, and that schedule would probably leave you with a lasting impression of drab motorways and tailbacks rather than anything else.

I'd recommend that you focus on three locations (London, York and Edinburgh) and give yourself ample time in those bases (you could do a week in each if you've got three weeks, for example). You can then get to lots of other places through leisurely day trips that you can arrange on an ad hoc basis while you''re there. That sort of arrangement would be so much less frantic and give you plenty of time to explore, relax and soak in what those places have to offer.

If you were to think about a 'skeleton' of London/York/Edinburgh, you've got a couple of two-hour-ish train journeys to link those places (and if you had to get back down to London for a return flight, it's only four and half hours on the train from Edinburgh or less than an hour on a plane). That compares immeasurably favourably with spending hours and hours on a coach. It's also a much more pleasant and satisfying way to travel: you see much more from a train.

You could easily tick off most of your 'must-sees' in this way - do Salisbury/Stonehenge as a day trip from London, for example, and Hadrian's Wall on a bus trip from Edinburgh: that sort of history-focused small-bus day tour is likely to be much better than an generic all-Britain one in terms of enthusiastic and informative guide, etc. And you'd have plenty of time to take in the myriad sights of the main locations at your leisure.

You can also get cheap flights to Ireland (Belfast or Dublin, for example) from Edinburgh, so you could even do those as day trips (or just accept your 'base' bookings as a sunk cost and stay overnight).

A key point is that many British cities are just great places to just stroll around and take in museums, art galleries, etc., as and when you choose (they're free to enter, so you're under no pressure to 'do' them all at once). Being herded about from location to location on a bus just sounds miserable!
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: AKULA on August 15, 2023, 11:59:56 AM
As others have said:

1. That tour schedule looks horrific

2. Focus upon a handful of centres and explore from there otherwise you won’t actually see anything other than busses/trains/planes

3. London - York - Edinburgh = doable & loads to see… would give you a couple of days to hop over to Ireland as well.

 :)
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Belligerentparrot on August 15, 2023, 12:09:37 PM
Further echoing some comments above.

Whoever told you about showers was either very out of date or having you on. You'd have to make incredibly bad choices to end up in a hotel with no shower - I've never seen a hotel without one, and I've lived in the UK since 2004. In my experience UK hotels are not as spacious as US ones (everything is bigger in the US it seems!) but they aren't cramped. TripAdvisor is your friend if you're unsure what to choose.

I would honestly suggest ditching the tour, and using the train. In my experience the train rides are much, much more scenic. Stuck in a bus you're liable to spend a good portion of your travel time looking at noise-reducing walls or thick lines of trees along the side of motorways. From the train you actually see the countryside! You can also get up and move around during the journey.

I don't really know what you get on a tour that you can't just get under your own steam: historic sites are usually very well maintained here, usually free, and usually supported by excellent audio commentary/other information etc. In places where tours save you admission fees or give you good access to information, or where it helps to have a translator handy, I can see the point. But in the UK, I'm not sure what the advantage would be.

As long as you don't do anything silly like book a multiple train journey with short connection times, you should be fine. Every now and then bad luck strikes, but that is true of anything really (I was once on the London-Edinburgh train, which broke down, and then another train was despatched to pick us up, and also broke down. But that is one instance in a journey I've made hundreds of times with no hitch).

You might also want to look into the Caledonian Sleeper. Whether or not it works for you will depend on what you want to do, but an overnight train is a very effective way of travel. it looks expensive, but once you realise you don't have to pay for accommodation that night, it works out OK. The train actually spends most of the night on a railway siding somewhere near the Sco/Eng border: it doesn't actually take 8 hours to get from London to Edinburgh.

Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Hobgoblin on August 15, 2023, 03:00:36 PM
You might also want to look into the Caledonian Sleeper. Whether or not it works for you will depend on what you want to do, but an overnight train is a very effective way of travel. it looks expensive, but once you realise you don't have to pay for accommodation that night, it works out OK. The train actually spends most of the night on a railway siding somewhere near the Sco/Eng border: it doesn't actually take 8 hours to get from London to Edinburgh.

Great call: I've never done this, but I have a friend who evangelises fervently about it for regular trips.

I'd also repeat some advice from earlier in the thread about renting somewhere to stay through Airbnb/booking.com/whatever. I probably wouldn't do this in London (it's so huge and sprawling that it might be a little difficult to work out what a given property's location is like if you don't know the city well), but I certainly would for Edinburgh, York and most other small British cities.

In my experience, the standard of holiday-home rental is very high: we've done it a lot in Italy and in various places in rural Scotland and northern England. Every time, the places have been delightful, and it's so much more convenient to have a base that's equipped with a washing machine and cooking facilities (eating out for every meal can drag after a while, to say nothing of health and cost considerations!).

It's also generally cheaper: you can rent a flat in a nice part of Edinburgh's centre for under £90 a night in May next year (and that's for the whole thing, obviously, not per person). And if you go up to the £100-£150 range per night, there are loads of options - at roughly half what you'd be paying for an OK-ish hotel. York is similar. If there are just two of you, a small, comfortable flat could be ideal. Online reviews have really driven rental standards up, I think; we've never rented anywhere that was less than delightful for family holidays.

Also, besides being a cheaper option overall, it's also psychologically liberating from a sunk-cost perspective. If you've rented a flat for a week in Edinburgh, you're not going to worry about taking a midweek overnight trip to Dublin, but I suspect most people would with a hotel. And you'll get to experience the real life of the location just that little bit more.

One point that might help here is the "strangeness of scale" of the UK. As just about everyone has said, the coach tour looks a dreadful option because of the logistics (hours and hours on characterless roads). If you're reliant on road, the UK can be quite tiresome to get around (that is, it "scales up"). But it's a different beast by rail, which can often be around twice as fast, centre to centre, and is a great way to travel (everything "scales down"). For "local" trips (e.g. Edinburgh to Glasgow or London to Salisbury), you don't need any complicated booking - just get a day return from a machine at the station and hop on the next train (Edinburgh-Glasgow trains are either every half-hour or every 15 minutes, for example).

For longer journeys (e.g. London to York or Edinburgh), you probably want to get your tickets in advance (online or at the station) to get a seat booking and/or a cheaper fare, but it's not a huge deal.

And the convenience of rail travel makes all sorts of places eminently daytrippable. If you just had time to base yourself in London and Edinburgh (over two weeks, say), you could make visits to places in the south from London and raid the north of England (Berwick, Alnwick, Hadrian's Wall, Lindesfarne, Newcastle, Durham ...) from Scotland. York is roughly equidistant, so you could do a day trip from either, although an en route stop-off would probably make more sense if you didn't have time to spend longer there.

One more example of the "scale" effect: a good day out from Edinburgh would be Linlithgow (the former seat of the Scottish kings) followed by Stirling (whose castle is much more castle-y than Edinburgh's). If you're doing both on a coach tour, it's probably OK, just about. But if you hop on a train, you're in Linlithgow in about 20 minutes - before you'd even be out of Edinburgh on a coach - and after you've explored the ruined palace and had lunch, you can get a train to Stirling that takes about half an hour. Even though you'd be visiting two towns, your day wouldn't be rushed, and you'd have plenty of time to explore and take things at your own pace.

Finally, Belligerentparrot's point about the views from the train is a huge one:

I would honestly suggest ditching the tour, and using the train. In my experience the train rides are much, much more scenic. Stuck in a bus you're liable to spend a good portion of your travel time looking at noise-reducing walls or thick lines of trees along the side of motorways. From the train you actually see the countryside! You can also get up and move around during the journey.

To that, I'd add that you also get a sense of towns and cities that you might not have time to visit. For example, you might not have time to visit Berwick, Newcastle or Durham, all of which are lovely. But if you take the train from London to Edinburgh, you'll see and pass through their centres, which is better than nothing, and will give you at least some sense (however fleeting) of what these places are like. By contrast, one stretch of motorway viewed from a coach is much like another!
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 16, 2023, 07:10:17 AM
I've explored a lot of options and an independent travel trip is not on the cards, ditto a train journey or a cruise.  This leaves a tour. 

I have taken some of the advice here and found a more 'relaxed' tour with four of the stops a two night stay so not so hectic.  But more expensive.  I'd rather spend more and have a better trip.  Is it ideal?  No.  But whatever choices we make, they will all be compromises.  Note that this still has a stop in Cardiff but one week earlier so Monday, May 6th, so maybe still able to get that game in if workable. 

One element I really like about this trip is it runs counterclockwise around Britain rather than the other way around - and another is a couple of days in the Scottish Highlands - might not be some folks cup of tea but very much up my alley.  Alas, no Ireland but also no long ferry rides or choppy seas (but Island of Skye, maybe).

Will arrive a day ahead of the tour start with a morning arrival to give some time for jet lag; so two days in London before the trip proper launches (with half of the second day a localized tour).  And then four days at the end of the tour (maybe five) with one day likely a decompress day and then three (four?) more days in London.  Some days are around 2 hours travel time, others up to 4 hours - and then rounding up significantly (adding 1/2 to 1 hour to Google maps estimates based on info here in this thread) and close to 30 (36?) hours total travel time across 11 days but less than 3 hours per day on average and if Google is closer to reality (?) maybe a little over 2 1/2 hours average travel per day .  Either is tolerable from our perspective.  And if it averages 3 1/2 hours per day, well, again tolerable. 

Here is the new tour under consideration - with italicized addendums by me:

Day 0
Arrive in London by air with an early arrival


Day 1
Welcome to London
London

Day 2
Explore Historic London
London

Day 3
Journey to Stonehenge, Bath and Exeter
London
Stonehenge
Bath
Exeter maybe a bit of a hectic day - so be it

Day 4
Plymouth and More in the Southwest
Exeter
Plymouth
Polperro

Day 5
Onwards to Glastonbury and Cardiff
Polperro
Exeter
Glastonbury
Cardiff

Day 6
Explore Tudor History and on to Liverpool
Cardiff
Ludlow
Chester
Liverpool maybe another hectic day

Day 7
Venture to the Romantic Lake District and on to Glasgow
Liverpool
Lake District
Gretna Green
Glasgow

Day 8
On to Fort William and the Scottish Highlands
Glasgow
Glencoe
Scottish Highlands

Day 9
Discover the Isle of Skye
Scottish Highlands
Isle of Skye
Scottish Highlands

Day 10
Journey to Enchanting Edinburgh
Scottish Highlands
Pitlochry
St. Andrews
Edinburgh

Day 11
Uncover Edinburgh’s Treasures
Edinburgh

Day 12
Continue to York
Edinburgh
Alnwick
York

Day 13
Onwards to Shakespeare’s Stratford-upon-Avon and London
York
Stratford-upon-Avon
London long slog back to London - but that built in decompress day to recover

Day 14
Cheerio London
London

Day 15 - 16 -17 -18 Explore London

Day 19 fly home on overnight flight (and collapse at home and be glad we are retired!)


Maybe one extra day in London???

Seems I left out the 'side trip' to Island of Skye so a bit more road time - or just hang out at our hotel instead.  But maybe another 2 - or 3 - hours of travel time one way.  And looks like maybe an old ring fort nearby unless it is some farmers construct so, if so, preferred over Skye for me.

So, here is a question - with five days at a minimum on our own in London, recommended things to do in the realm of gardens, museums/libraries, military history, castles/palaces?  Except for the military history stuff - and the British Museum! - that is mostly for my wife, ultimately "her trip" after all: "I want to go to London.".  And, no, being centrally based in a hotel does not count as "independent travel" in my book, most of what we will do will be within walking distance - if not all.

Any hobby shops in range of Lambeth area that would stock historical figures and buildings, especially in 15 mm?  Not a high priority given I may have just sent out my last order for figures.  There is literally nothing that is actually available that I still want or need to add to my various collections.  That doesn't mean things won't pop up of interest, just essentially 'there'. 

Thanks for the constructive input and hope no one is put off by not taking your advice.  If I was on my own it would be a very different story but have to take wife into account - and her luggage!!!  lol
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: 2010sunburst on August 16, 2023, 07:42:12 AM
That sounds like a much better itinerary to me.  For your London end, I would suggest Kew Gardens is a must visit to cover the Gardens aspect.  It’s world class and worth it for the glass houses alone. 
Museum wise I’d say the imperial war museum and the British museum are both must sees.  I would allow a day for each of these, giving yourself time to wander and explore as well.  If you want a more general museum, the Victoria and Albert is also excellent. 
Lastly, for pure history don’t overlook the Tower of London.  It’s a tourist hot spot, sure, but there are few places with more British history ingrained in them.

Have fun, and let us know how you get on 👍
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Citizen Sade on August 16, 2023, 08:35:58 AM
You really don't need to limit yourself to things within walking distance in London given the extensive underground transport system ("The Tube"). Visitors Oyster cards are worth looking into  (LINK) (https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/getting-around-london/best-ways-for-visitors-to-pay). If you want to avoid the hustle & bustle of the crowded tube, there are always black cabs (taxis) though they're more expensive.

A few more attractions to consider: Royal Air Force London Museum, Natural History Museum (on the same road as the Science Museum and Victoria & Albert), Houses of Parliament & Borough Market (a food market with plenty of street food stalls). If you visit Borough Market, you could get some very decent British food at Roast (LINK) (https://www.roast-restaurant.com/).
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Rickf on August 16, 2023, 08:58:38 AM
That looks a reasonable compromise for a tour that aims to get it all in.

I had a couple of days in London last week, don't usually do the tourist stuff but this time we did two things that I thoroughly recommend. The first was an open top boat trip from Westminster pier (next to Big Ben and the Houses of parliament) to Greenwich. Takes in all of London's river history and landmarks. Didn't book, just turned up and easily got tickets.

The second was to book a time slot at the Sky Garden, this is a 35 storey building with a tropical garden on top and 360 view of London. It is a two minute walk from the Tower of London and has a couple of bars and restaurants on it. It is free to go in, but you have to book about 3 weeks in advance.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Belligerentparrot on August 16, 2023, 09:58:27 AM
That does look like a better tour.

I second the boat trip down the Thames suggestion, and the suggestion further up the thread of Kew (which really is remarkable). 

Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Hobgoblin on August 16, 2023, 12:56:01 PM
I wouldn't skip Skye if you have the opportunity to go there. It's got some amazing scenery: spectacular mountains and the wildest parts of the UK - if I remember rightly, Loch Coruisk is the most remote part of the country. Well worth a trip!
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Citizen Sade on August 16, 2023, 03:38:12 PM
One more thought. How about a day trip to Windsor during your stay in London? It's roughly half an hour by train from Paddington station. You could visit Windsor Castle and The Savill Garden in Windsor Great Park, for example.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on August 16, 2023, 10:47:00 PM
That is a better tour for sure.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: carlos marighela on August 17, 2023, 08:03:31 AM
Unless things have changed recently  I'd steer clear of Twit Advisor for accommodation reviews. Reviews can be posted without someone having stayed there and a while ago it had a bad rep for booster reviews from owners and negative reviews by competitors and a bucket of shite in between.

At least with Booking.com, you actually have to have stayed somewhere to post a review and can't review somewhere until after checkout. I use booking.com whenever I travel these days, even if I go directly to the hotel to book, the reviews are handy. Not experienced a case where the hotel was wildly out of sync with what the reviews said. Twit Advisor on the other hand I've seen all kinds of stupid.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Radar on August 17, 2023, 07:43:15 PM
One other important snippet of information: currency. When you order your travel money, ensure that there are no £50 notes. We don't generally use them, and when people do try and use them they are often treated with suspicion. I was queuing behind some tourist visitors in a motorway service station shop, they were trying to buy a couple of cans of coke and some chocolate bars. When they offered a £50 note, shop assistant said "sorry can't accept it". They left empty-handed.

Also be aware that our currency occasionally changes - £50 notes are now plasticky, not paper/linen. Couple of weeks ago when purchasing entrance tickets for Hampton Court, an American chap was trying to purchase entry tickets with the old style £50 notes. Ticket office wouldn't accept them (nowhere will - I think you can go into some banks and exchange them, but this is not universal). He claimed that he had only just collected them from his bank in the States. Would hate for you, or anybody else to be caught out like that.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: fred on August 18, 2023, 07:52:50 AM
I’d just avoid cash and use ApplePay on your phone. Since covid everywhere takes contactless payment now.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Belligerentparrot on August 18, 2023, 12:35:47 PM
I’d just avoid cash and use ApplePay on your phone. Since covid everywhere takes contactless payment now.

Contactless is esp. useful while you're in Scotland. You'll have no trouble spending English banknotes in Scotland (except the £50 as noted above), but in my experience English shops/taxis etc. will often refuse to take Scottish banknotes. They're within their rights to do so.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Citizen Sade on August 19, 2023, 09:12:50 AM
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/deals/free-museums-and-art-galleries/ (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/deals/free-museums-and-art-galleries/)

Thought this might be of interest for the extra days in London.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on August 19, 2023, 06:20:09 PM
Museum of the Home in Hoxton is a good one for free - loads of  British rooms done up from different periods of history with typical furnishings and objects:
https://www.museumofthehome.org.uk/

Good to slip in the itinerary if your wife is getting fed up of Military history or Art Galleries
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 21, 2023, 05:41:57 PM
Just FYI, down payment has been made on our trip.  Will need to add an extra day to our London hotel at the front end and five days (well, nights I guess) at the end of the trip.  And need to reserve our flights well in advance to lock in better pricing.

And thanks for the comments about currency.

Feel free to continue to add thoughts and ideas, especially for London.  What doesn't benefit us (wife and I) may be useful to others planning trips to the UK.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on August 22, 2023, 09:10:16 AM
Does your wife like atmospheric small churches? St Brides in Fleet street is a tiny treat . An early Cristopher Wren church, St. Bride was the patron saint of medieval printers.  What is special about this little church is that it took a German bomb in 1940 revealing a forgotten crypt underneath the floor which turned out to be a 2000 year old Roman temple !  :o  When visiting London I have often gone in there for a bit of peace and quiet. You can go down in the  temple/crypt it is very atmospheric and spooky but restful thinking of those early Romano-British Londoners . Fleet Street is on the end of the Strand, so if you have been to Somerset House it is only 2 minutes walk up an alley in Fleet Street to an almost silent courtyard and garden.

 https://www.stbrides.com/
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on August 22, 2023, 02:25:48 PM
Does your wife like atmospheric small churches? St Brides in Fleet street is a tiny treat . An early Cristopher Wren church, St. Bride was the patron saint of medieval printers.  What is special about this little church is that it took a German bomb in 1940 revealing a forgotten crypt underneath the floor which turned out to be a 2000 year old Roman temple !  :o  When visiting London I have often gone in there for a bit of peace and quiet. You can go down in the  temple/crypt it is very atmospheric and spooky but restful thinking of those early Romano-British Londoners . Fleet Street is on the end of the Strand, so if you have been to Somerset House it is only 2 minutes walk up an alley in Fleet Street to an almost silent courtyard and garden.

 https://www.stbrides.com/
And also the superb St Clement Danes (church of the Royal Air Force) just down the Strand (and then one of my favourite London pubs - the Seven Stars, round the back of the RCJ) :).
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: carlos marighela on August 22, 2023, 10:10:36 PM
Another vote for St Clement Danes, a Wren minor masterpiece.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on August 30, 2023, 05:21:22 PM
St. Clement might be a possibility.

Here is a partial list of things to try and see while in London:

Tower of London
Big Ben
Westminster Abbey
Parliament
British Museum
Buckingham Palace
Kew Gardens
Kensington Gardens
Kensington Palace
Imperial War Museum
London Zoo

Obviously, some of it is 'touristy' but we will be tourists after all!  :o

What I'd like to know is if any of the items on the list too closely duplicate something else on the list and, if so, which should be a higher priority?  We will probably to the Thames cruise to the Kew Gardens - and maybe back if workable.  Also like to know what is glaringly absent from the list - if anything?  And anything on the list that might be best just left off - if anything.

As always, thanks for all the input.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on August 30, 2023, 06:23:25 PM
I really think Greenwich should be on your list.  A visit to the Maritime Museum there is a must for me.  You get to see Nelsons uniform complete with bullet hole.  You can take a river boat/taxi from Westminster so you can combine it with a trip down the Thames.  You've also got the meridian there, the palace and park and a historic tea clipper tall ship (Cutty Sark) as well so a pretty historic place.  There is also a good market to boot.

Big ben is part of the Houses of Parliament.  Looks like it's pretty tricky to get on a tour of it though.

I like the Cabinet War Rooms, has the map room with the pin marks from convoy positions from the war.  Basically come VJ day it was shut up and simply left.  Really atmospheric.

If you like art the National Gallery or National Portrait Gallery are good.  There is also the Tate and Tate Modern as well for newer periods.

I wouldn't bother with London Zoo.  It's just a Zoo which you can visit in the USA easily enough.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Red Orc on August 31, 2023, 01:09:48 PM
Victoria & Albert Museum ('the V&A') is probably a contender for London Museums. Natural History Museum too. Science Museum is also interesting.

But there are bazillions of interesting museums in London. One of my favourites is the Sir John Soane Museum, just a barmy collection of stuff rammed together in a nice old house: https://www.soane.org/





Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: jon_1066 on August 31, 2023, 03:18:02 PM
Victoria & Albert Museum ('the V&A') is probably a contender for London Museums. Natural History Museum too. Science Museum is also interesting.

...

If you are coming from the US then the Science Musem and Nat His are not exactly something you can't experience back in your home country.  Personally I wouldn't bother with them unless you have time to kill (though they are free and the Nat His is a cool looking building in its own right.)

I suppose I'd try to concentrate on what the US doesn't have rather than something you could see at the Smithsonian.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on August 31, 2023, 05:15:08 PM
I second Sir John Soanes Museum.  Thanks to him falling out with his ungrateful son, (who he blamed for the death of his wife because of the upset) he left his whole barmy collection to the people.
I visited a couple of years ago. Not many people have catacombs containing Egyptian mummies in the basement.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Jemima Fawr on September 02, 2023, 02:18:06 AM
St. Clement might be a possibility.

Here is a partial list of things to try and see while in London:

Tower of London
Big Ben
Westminster Abbey
Parliament
British Museum
Buckingham Palace
Kew Gardens
Kensington Gardens
Kensington Palace
Imperial War Museum
London Zoo

Obviously, some of it is 'touristy' but we will be tourists after all!  :o

What I'd like to know is if any of the items on the list too closely duplicate something else on the list and, if so, which should be a higher priority?  We will probably to the Thames cruise to the Kew Gardens - and maybe back if workable.  Also like to know what is glaringly absent from the list - if anything?  And anything on the list that might be best just left off - if anything.

As always, thanks for all the input.

The Transport For London river buses are fast, frequent, work with the Oyster Card which you'll already be using for buses and the Tube and are much cheaper than the commercial cruises.  You just don't get the tour commentary.  Highly recommended.
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: Radar on September 02, 2023, 09:58:17 AM
The Wallace Collection, possibly the best collection of armour on display in London (it's a very close run thing to the Royal Armouries collection on display at The Tower). Tucked away behind Selfridges department store on Oxford Street. Also has an eclectic collection of stuff, excellent art collection too (including Laughing Cavalier by Frans Hals).

Another vote for Greenwich, for London it is relatively quiet. The old naval college buildings are stunning, as is the Queen's House. If you are staying in central London catch the Uber water taxi there, a really good bit of sightseeing/commuting, passing under Tower Bridge. Affords you some wonderful views.n
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: TWD on September 02, 2023, 10:06:06 AM
National Army Museum should probably be on a wargamers list
https://www.nam.ac.uk/
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: vodkafan on September 02, 2023, 11:54:27 AM
One thing you can do for free in London is to walk along the South Bank of the Thames after walking over Tower Bridge (you are going to the Tower I see) and taking in all the sights along the way. The Globe theatre, historic riverside pubs, HMS Belfast moored along the river, The Golden Hind in dry dock, Statues, small parks, the Tate Modern London Eye/River cruise jetties- much much more, and with the North side of the city always in full view. All on the way to the Imperial War Museum. On good weather days there are amusing street performers and musicians and always street food sellers. If you keep the Thames on your right , when you get to Westminster Bridge turn sharp left and walk towards Waterloo and The Imperial War Museum (you have basically walked a more scenic route right around it)  But if you get fed up ANY of the bridge roads turning left will take you to the IWM. (look on the map to see what I mean)
I would strongly suggest you do those three things in one day in that order (Tower of London in the morning, walk along South Bank and IWM for the afternoon. That would be a good and full day you would see and soak up a lot, don't try to add any more. Numerous places to eat at any time along the way, I can recommend the Cubana restaurant near Waterloo as good  not too expensive https://www.cubana.co.uk/find-us/
 
Title: Re: UK trip in 2024 - input sought
Post by: FifteensAway on November 18, 2023, 01:42:10 AM
Just wanted to take a moment to thank the posters who've contributed since I last responded.  Trip still planned - but been busy getting wife ready for a five week trip to her home country; too expensive for us both to go, cost of UK round trip flight is about 1/3 of the holiday round trip to her country.