Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of the Big Battalions => Topic started by: Bellerophon on July 10, 2023, 03:19:18 PM
-
I want to do big battle Napoleonics - probably Austerlitz and the Peninsula campaign.
What scale of figures should I get?
Note, I'll be painting both sides likely.
Also, any rules recommendations for big battles?
-
I find that DBN works great for medium—big battles.
Nominally for 15mm figures one 40mm wide bases. But like any game, works fine with any scale; if you go to a smaller scale, you can put more figures per base. And if you change the base size, just adjust movement/firing distances accordingly.
The rules also specify distances for 60mm wide bases. Many gamers use this with 1/72 plastics. Our group is doing 60mm bases with 15mm figures; this allows us to adjust the figure count to show troop quality.
There is a scenario pdf that includes Austerlitz; and there are quite a few free scenario downloads, including a fair number of Peninsula battles.
Rules available here: http://www.dbnwargaming.co.uk/
Lots of game vids here will give you a good idea if the game is to your taste or not:
https://www.youtube.com/user/DBNwargaming/videos
-
I would recommend either 10 mm or 6 mm. Any larger scale and battles devolve into a rugby squad taking a flag for a walk unless you have a very large table (and have painted lots of figures).
Rules - take a look at Bloody Big Battles (written for later but work perfectly well with Naps), Blucher by Sam Mustafa, or Polemos available from Baccus I think. All are appropriate for the large battles of the period.
-
Whatever scale you like...
3 or 6mm gives you loads of figs and big units and are ok to paint and get out fairly fast - you just have to get the technique down.
28mm looks super impressive but painting enough of them for big battles is a task (and an expense/storage issue) ...
10/15mm you could say are compromises between the two extremes.
Personally, I have 15mm.
As for rules there are lots.... you might want to decide the rules before looking at figs as may rules have specific scales in mind.
-
I have 15mm, with at least 300+ figures per army. I have Prussians, Austrians, Anglo-Dutch, lots of French, some Bavarians and Nassau, a mate has Russians.
If I were starting again I'd use Old Glory 10mm strips; 10 infantry in a strip, just under an inch wide. Easy to paint.
https://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=10mm+Figures (https://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=10mm+Figures)
Now I field 12 figure units generally. With 10mm strips the same unit would have 40 figures in double ranks and the same footprint, 4" wide in line. They have Peninsular Brits and the major Continental powers.
There are the Warlord Epic scale (13mm) though so far all they have is Waterloo.
https://us.warlordgames.com/collections/epic-battles-waterloo (https://us.warlordgames.com/collections/epic-battles-waterloo)
For big battles I like Bloody Big Battles. Grand tactical, no forming square. The rules were designed for the later 19th century but with minor tweaks - or none at all - you can get large battles resolved in an evening with results that don't make you wonder how that happened.
You mileage may vary. Some must have column-line-square or it ain't Napoleonic.
-
Yup like the others Ive got 15s & 6s but if I was doing it again Id go 10 mm
Unless I was going very big battles when Id stick with 6mm
-
For really Large Napoleonic battles I'd go 6mm or even 2 or 3mm. I like the 10mm figures for detail and character but you are still going to end up with brigades of a tiny number of figures looking nothing like a serious unit unless you have a massive space available..
Rules - Volley and Bayonet - written for large Napoleonic battles. They don't do the column line square jig either but capture the Napoleonic flavour without the pointless chrome. Been working brilliantly for thirty years, See Keith McNelly's blog for evidence.
Bloody Big Battles - great set of rules but they are written for Franco Prussian era where they are excellent, and tweaked backwards for Napoleonic. Never a good sign for me. They will work but they aren't aimed at the period.
-
Smaller size, like 6mm or 10mm, and another vote for DBN.
-
10mm, and I have tried 2, 6, and 15.
-
Any.
Space to play and footprint squired usually determines your scale. The more room you might have to game or display allows you to go for bigger figures as they usually provide the most pleasure in painting and the most spectacle on the table. Time to paint them is not really an issue as painting is it’s pleasure and not wasted time. If your space is small, go for smaller figs. 15/18s are a good compromise.
Blucher are my go to rules for big battles.
-
Bellerophon, I'm not much of a Napoleonics gamer so can't comment on the best rules to buy. From bitter experience a few considerations. (1) When you say you want to do big battle is this just the level of gaming ( ie Division/Corps) or do you want the visual spectacle of masses of troops? IMHO 4-6 figures on a base doesn't really do the latter! (2) Do you have other gaming projects on the go at the same time? Painting both sides of any period whilst also doing other projects is a mighty painting exercise. (3) Before committing to any scale I would buy a few samples particularly of 6 and 10mm figures. I find these need a different painting style than their larger brethren and your experience may inform your decision.
All that said if I was starting from scratch in asking your exam question for myself I would probably opt for 6mm or 10mm. Baccus 6mm metals are about 8.5p each , and Pendraken's 10mm metals about 20p each. I think you can now get some nice small scale 3D printed Napoleonics as well.
-
As BBB has had some honourable mentions here (thanks, chaps), let me point to its collected reviews:
https://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2016/10/collected-reviews-of-bbb-bloody-big.html
There are some Napoleonic scenarios available in the IO group files
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
and a scenario book in preparation containing all of Napoleon's bloodiest, biggest battles, probably out early next year. Lots of Napoleonic game reports on the BBBBlog as well.
As for scale, I am committed to 6mm which has served me well. If starting again, I might go for 10mm because it is easier to tell units apart but you still get visual mass effect.
Chris
-
You could try Absolute Emperor, generally units are 4 stands with adjustments for scales from 2mm to 54mm, as regards using inches, or centimetres.
There an Osprey blue book wargame so change from a £20 for hardcopy and change from a £10 for pdf or 2nd hand.
See if there's a QRS though as layout is apparently not the best.
-
Since you are starting from scratch, I suggest the following:
Get a set of rules. Cut out cardboard bases per the rules and try some small games with the cardboard units. If the rules feel right, go ahead and mount the figures for those rules. Nothing as foul as basing up a boatload of figures and finding the rules just don't cut it.
This way, if the rules don't float your boat, get the next set, cut out more units if the old ones don't work. Repeat as necessary.
Many years ago, I lured a board gaming friend to the dark side with cardboard DBA pieces. Now he owns various DBA armies and ACW, FPW, SYW and Napoleonic forces. :D
-
28mm is King
-
28mm is King
Only if you live like royalty
-
28mm is King
10mm is emperor.
-
28mm IS great, but it is also a BIG commitment. As mentioned by others footprint and storage are important considerations.
Dipping your toe, e-a-s-i-n-g into the tub may lead to a more enjoyable bath in the end even if it takes a little longer, not to mention the therapeutic aspect of mulling it over and jawboning with like minded individuals.
-
I have a bunch of 15mm but if I were starting over I would go with 10mm Old Glory minis.
-
If you are wanting to play Austerlitz you will need to consider space, cost, how much painting you can realistically do.
Then you will need to consider the degree of abstraction you are happy with. Will you bathtub units so that battalions stand in for brigades so you can form square, line and column? Are you happy to have bigger maneouvre units - battalions or divisions as your smallest units - and not worrying about battalion formations?
Even 6mm figures (I have 15 and 6mm Naps) cover a big area if you want to field an entire army (other than the Peninsula War). I suspect 3mm is the way to go for what you want. On certain other wargames sites people are rather disparaging about the smaller scales, but a unit of 30 or more 6mm figures looks better than a unit of 12 or so 28mm figures. I suspect 60 or more 3mm figures will look better. Yes, you will not be able to make out the uniforms as much, but the mass of figures will have it's own quality. Some people will say 3mm figures are no better than cardboard cutouts, but from photos I have seen this is simply not true.
As far as rules, there are many. The link below is good. It doesn't mention Et Sans Resultat - now in it's 3rd edition.
https://wargamingeverything.home.blog/2022/07/31/the-ultimate-napoleonic-wargame-rules-review-and-comparison/
-
Since 28mm is all about the figure/model I have no problem fielding 10 or 12 man units that can handle large battles if I want that and can be painted up in a reasonable time. If your looking for mass effect you need to drop scales and the more you drop the bigger the effect will be.
Christopher
-
I think it’s all about the spectacle with Napoleonics, groups of large units of miniature battalions and cavalry.
Which in the end depends on your available funds and space, 15mm is certainly a good scale for the big battalions but I prefer 28mm.
I’ve played many sets of Napoleonic rules but I find I always come back to General D’Armee by Dave Brown. The game is well supported and is due shortly a second edition.
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewforum.php?f=41&sid=66a70aef5bca0c00a80026b8f7044c21
-
Everybody has their own preference, so it is really hard to figure out what direction to go. I would recommend this avenue of approach:
Since you are starting from scratch, I suggest the following:
Get a set of rules. Cut out cardboard bases per the rules and try some small games with the cardboard units. If the rules feel right, go ahead and mount the figures for those rules. Nothing as foul as basing up a boatload of figures and finding the rules just don't cut it.
This way, if the rules don't float your boat, get the next set, cut out more units if the old ones don't work. Repeat as necessary.
I would say, start with a rule set that you can find basically for free and then do the above. This will give you a general impression of what your battlefield will look like if it was populated with miniatures. From there you will have a base of knowledge as to which scale to persue.
-
For me it's all about the ascetics. If I didn't care about how the figures and terrain looked, I'd still be playing on hex-based maps with cardboard counters. I chose 28mm precisely because my aging eyes and trembly hands simply can't paint an acceptable level of quality in 10mm or 15/18mm and 6mm is right out. YMMV. I would also rather play a gorgeous 28mm fight for Hougoumont than the entire battle of Waterloo in 6mm. For skirmishing, if I had it to do over again, I'd go with 40mm.
-
why stop at 40…54mm are pretty awesome.
-
Having played many different Napoleonic rulesets and figures scale - 18mm is the current one - I would suggest you try to find games that you can play in before opening the wallet.
Failing that, check YouTube to see if there are rules that spark your interest.
Good luck 👍
-
It might be worth your while cutting out some blank cardboard bases for what you think is the army you want and for the number of units that you would likely want / need.
Place these out on the table and you will probably get a good idea of what you would be best going for.
Try units of 4 bases, each base at 40mm or 50mm wide and just how you might get on with that.
-
10mm
It’s the future!
-
I used 6mm and Blucher rules.
-
There are only ever three considerations:
Time. Money. Space.
Actually, the last of these is possibly the most important. There is no point collecting thousands if you will only ever have a venue big enough to play in once every couple of years. If your table is 6'x8' or preferably larger I'd say 15mm - 28mm. You can comfortably get 1500 28mm on a 12'x6'. Smaller tables and you can't look at 28mm, though a reasonably big game in 15mm can be had on an 8'x4'.
Time and money go hand in hand, because if you are rolling in money you simply buy someone else's time to do everything for you. If you're not, then time will be the killer. I am quite a prolific painter (pro) but even if I paint several hours a week for myself, I'll be lucky to paint more than 400 28mm Napoleonic figures a year (big lulls due to boredom or having something better to do than take a busman's holiday) - each figure takes me roughly half an hour, and the most I've ever painted in a year for myself was around 800 figures (SYW)* when I had (over) promised to do a convention game - this game (where more than half had already been done over a couple of years and I figured it would be easy) and that year was a killer.
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QTIbpPGrLLU/WfxovrRaKnI/AAAAAAAAMWU/bhABVN-Q_1Q6Z3--AJp3CQcrqQ-HL_fHACLcBGAs/s640/IMG_1614.JPG)
*I did paint 2,100 Punics in two years but, not being proper figures (LOL), Ancients don't count.
I admire your ambition. It probably surpasses my own. If you are doing it all yourself you will need an iron will to get it done. My method isn't to everyone's taste. I generally buy a lot of figures to fully tie me financially to a project, so that I can't afford not to carry things through.
A big box of stuff looks like this, this one weighed in at over 60lbs and contained £2000 worth of Front Rank figures: It was quite a bit of my three army Peninsular project, plus a few hundred figures to finish my SYW Austrians (which I did first, of course).
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wbqz7RLvpTU/VXXXAO_OIRI/AAAAAAAAJms/MrvPGCmctn8/s320/IMG_9611.JPG)
Laying everything out it looked pretty daunting - this was just the British in the box (about 70% of the of the eventual number of British). With my method, it's always like this: You look at them and wonder just how much you've bitten off.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VOoCWjsrNVA/VXXXKsUH2sI/AAAAAAAAJm4/eyspTBYHeek/s320/IMG_9613.JPG)
I bought that box in June 2015. I started painting the Napoleonic figures, in earnest, in May 2016. Today, after a further investment of over £1600, 2,700 men (not including horses, etc.) are painted and I have just three Spanish units left to paint - the end is nigh! (Or, I can see the pub from 'ere!)
It can be done, believe me. Just keep going. Good luck with whatever you decide! One piece of advice - pick Peninsular or 1805, not both: the dilution of effort might sound the death knell to both. Do both, but do one after the other.
My British
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgisVIOHIPsoQ0xQK_KxPErUHcD0R5hY5FGpm__pMbsVEFKXvIMkUolexiorZR-s1UT1_yuDtXDHmRV9coSqwIMaEXKwq4oTF466wfzu4uyNNReZZaQ96ejYc0wXBZP0vLXs8A2uMq7FjuOLfEpUHn4LijFcnfIg7Rm7WRYN6rpNqfTYtEGklJjczoS=w640-h480)
My French
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HILTKUhg64I/X1pCvHbONXI/AAAAAAAAOrs/YZFRWQSnWDITrx4WJcA_qixyzIhfMqWmACNcBGAsYHQ/w625-h469/IMG_3420.JPG)
Spanish roll call imminent!
BTW. If you are rolling in money, I might consider an offer of £50,000. Not promising anything but, I'd think about it. A close up of some Brits.
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiYz_mQhhnorMmURDFPTxA99wHOTkgr6uuPOW59ndmkJ69XXknADQST9YamOV87jHZuJjNcspXvD8Eo6wOqtQ_MF6hjBOj2EuBFtM809PDjfhjFp1eouehyEk2_L0bHq3XFy3_gLNEIflKMO0f6Ff5phBnf6Iew3by6Ddj807BLVy3sEIyZMm4Y3gWv=s2048)
-
A great thread in response to a good question. In my case, it's 15/18mm and using Age of Eagles rules, so brigade-sized units. Most of mine are 24+ figures per, so six bases of four figures each for standard mid-period French units of six companies, and variations of this based on orbats etc. for others.
I did have 6mm once but struggled to paint them, wanting greater detail but not having the eyesight for it, and therefore never being quite contented with the 'look'. As a more or less rubbish painter, however, 28mm also exposes my sins in rather too much detail, making figures look a bit cartoonish or unfinished. (My washing and highlighting skills are especially suspect.) Lacking the money to pay professionals for this, I learned early that smaller figures at the three-foot rule were perfect for me, and so 15/18mm it was. They give me scope to paint details I can see, but en masse don't expose my subpar painting.
I have a few plastics in 20mm also, and love them, but they are childhood holdovers and not regularly on any table. These I will add to and rebase singly to facilitate some skirmish wargaming, but there is a large 1809 Austrian force to paint first.....
Olicana's amazing forces in the previous reply are just fabulous. Wow.
-
made a decision yet?
-
Re: painting skills, I am taking a good long look at Citadel contrast paints - paint and shade at the same time.
-
Contrast paints are quick but they are pretty expensive. I find washes made with medium or simply diluted with water do much the same.
-
With napoleonics though you might not need lots of colours as whilst uniforms are colourful they are uniform, ie all of one side will be painted much the same.
-
Contrast paints are quick but they are pretty expensive. I find washes made with medium or simply diluted with water do much the same.
Hmm, my ancient period nickname is Pennius Pinchus... I pile up surplus budget when playing Decline and Fall.
-
I like DBN, Valour and Fortitude also looks promising, and is free? As I will be playing mostly solo I need something fairly simple. Also have Commands and Colours on order! I have receantly started Napoleonics again, after a gap of many years, and have gone with worlord`s epic scale. Its all Waterloo so far, but I am hoping for some Austrians. I really like the figures. They are characterful yet modeled to that small scale for easier painting. I`m amazed at the detail of the sculpts. I have reduced the base sizes to suit playing on a small table.
-
I would look at 10mm Pendraken their ranges are great and paint up very well. You can quickly assemble very good collections.
I, unfortunately have 15mm for my Napoleonics but if I were to start again I would go 10mm
-
I use 15mm for my Napoleonics. For skirmish games I use 28mm. For Napoleonic battles I think 15mm is the best compromise between numbers of figures and ability to see those magnificent uniforms! For periods with more drab or more uniform uniforms I would go smaller (probably 6mm)
for large scale battles (ACW or later). Hussars and Carabiniers had the best uniforms ever. I want to see them.
Basing: whatever you do, base all your units the same. I made the mistake of following the recommendations from "Napoleon's Battles" basing most infantry on 3/4" x 1" bases but lights and brits on 1" x 1". Stupid. That rules also recommends putting 4 cavalry on a base in 2 ranks. I am so glad I didn't do that! I would just avoid "Napoleon's Battles" completely BTW, IMO those rules are awful!
Rules: I am currently using Blucher. very nice for big battles. You can buy playing card armies for this one to get you started. They are easy.
-
For me, I have 15mm Naps based on the Russia invasion of 1812. If I was to start all over again I would go 10mm. I use 60x40mm bases 4 to a battalion for foot and one base per squadron for cavalry.
Rules wise Black Powder or General D'Armee 2 when it comes out.
-
I have made it a rule that certain size conflicts with huge battles are played in 15 mm. That way I have more space to create larger battles. This would include ACW, FPW, and Napoleonics. For smaller conflicts with mostly small battles, I do those in 28mm. This would include AWI, colonial, and War of 1812.
It's not just the figures but the terrain features. 28mm buildings can take up a tremendous amount of space. Then there is the expense of the larger figures, buildings, and other terrain. It is much easier to store 15mm figures as they take up so little space compared to 28mm.
As for figures smaller than 15mm. My eyesight doesn't support 15mm anymore let alone anything smaller. When it comes to 6mm and smaller much more effort should put into the terrain as the figures are just too small to see, at least for some of us.
-
Unless you can afford to have figures painted for you the biggest challenge you face in realising this project is the sheer amount of time it takes to paint Napoleonic figures, let alone large armies for two different theatres.
I’d suggest you order some sample figures in a range of different sizes (6,10,18 and 28mm) and paint them. That should tell you which you are most likely to succeed in mass producing. Although you’ll probably speed up you can roughly work out how long it’ll take you to paint a table top unit.
This might be the critical factor. If you can only paint 30 figures a month it’s going to take you many years to build up large forces. At this point you’ll also know what size figures you enjoying painting the most. Make your other decisions around this.
I spent a lot of time up front working through all this stuff before settling on rules, scale and scope.