Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: olicana on 08 August 2023, 04:15:37 PM
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Hi, I'm asking this because I'm trying to sort out quite a big plastic / metal order for Perry.
I don't want to buy extra riflemen in metal if rifles in plastic packs are compulsory, and I don't want to replace compulsory plastic riflemen with metal spears / swords (though a few mixed in won't hurt) if they are not.
I don't normally buy Perry plastic so I've no idea what comes in a pack. However, given my Beja and Ansar infantry order (at about 2/5 plastic) already tops £800, this might be a costly mistake to make.
That £800 cost excludes rifle only skirmish units - I have 8 boxes of Beja / Ansar plastics in the basket: I really need advice, thanks.
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I don't think there are any compulsory riflemen - you can make two per 10-man sprue and one from each of the three command sprues. So you've got a maximum of six riflemen per box and a minimum of none.
This is the main sprue - it makes up to eight spearmen, plus two swordsmen and/or riflemen, to a total of 10:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-EIAAOSwxDpj65pG/s-l1600.jpg)
You can see the command sprue here:
(https://www.perry-miniatures.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Sprues-small.jpg)
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Wonder where the riflemen ,keep their cartridges ?
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Hobgoblin, thanks. That is what I was hoping. It makes things much easier to work out. I'm trying to buy a basic Sudan collection as a 'one box purchase'. Boats and specials will have to come later.
Currently, the combined British / Mahdist order has just topped £1650. I still have the Mahdist cavalry, combined artillery and command to work out, and I might even be able to up the British infantry a bit.
I'm planning on doing the Brits (all metal) in 36 man units (4 Brit, 1 Egyptian, 2 Sudanese, plus a naval contingent of 18). The Mahdist spears (about 3/5 metal) will be in 60 man units (5 Beja, 8 Ansar). Mahdist skirmishing rifles (all metal, thanks to your info) will be in 18s (7 units, split 3 - 4).
If I do 2 British infantry units in plastic (100%) I will add a unit of Sikhs (metal), and I might be able to afford another (possibly a smaller 24 man KRRC unit) - we'll see. Cavalry (all metal) are going to be in 12s because they (Brits) seem to be about 1/3 infantry strength and I can't see why the Mahdists can't be about the same. Camelry (metal) will be in 18s for both sides, too. I've calculated for three cavalry and a camel unit for the Brits; I'm thinking five and two for the Mahdists - hmmm.
I did think about basing things on a 24 man British unit (my usual go to) but, it doesn't seem to work with the small numbers of units involved (in most 1885-ish battles) and making brigade squares where one unit might form both sides of a corner. I know Peter Gilder did 72 man units for the Sudan - but, that's just silly!
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Some very impressive numbers. Looking forward to following your progress over on your blog.
Great stuff
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Maybe it's my eyes, but I see 24 arms per twelve (12) man rank and file sprue on the blue pic Hobgoblin posted. As two of these hold rifles, it would mean 6 of 36 rank and file per box file would have rifles (unless you plan on conversions). The command sprues allow choice but the rank and file sprues appear not to.
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Maybe it's my eyes, but I see 24 arms per twelve (12) man rank and file sprue on the blue pic Hobgoblin posted. As two of these hold rifles, it would mean 6 of 36 rank and file per box file would have rifles (unless you plan on conversions). The command sprues allow choice but the rank and file sprues appear not to.
Whoops! Yes, you're quite right - don't know why I thought it was 10 (possibly because I've built no riflemen from the sole sprue I have - though kitbashing may explain that ...).
Hope that hasn't caused any inconvenience!
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Looking forward to seeing this develop - sounds interesting…
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@ olicana That’s an impressive and ambitious plan. I think my project has cost around £1,500 so far, for 235 Hadendowa (a mix of plastic and metal) and 231 Empire, with another 48 to add in due course (contingents of 15th Sikhs and mounted infantry/Camel Corps) … not all deployed at the same time, obvs, and a number of scenic items.
@ gostgost13: Some of the metal riflemen have cartridge belts (presumably looted from fallen Egyptian soldiers).
I made some conversions, including these plastic fellows:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhE6AxySaDXUIlcEnfs7PORmdrNWbpOkRsxDVTzXWvc3TV07viu6hkGvyGbmId_yjlZxslGFIO0--hkQHHsR5TL-14yU9yRYLOgLdITJWA4K8n7ls-Hg75rAbZoC17hm7Y-t72Gt_kDJ068VSEq40fN9zknWf5RrqShkgE-dGz1ssET1tf55SP7ZtazZRU/w400-h400/IMG_5015.jpg)
More on my blog.
Cheers
JJ
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In my not humble opinion, and from personal experience , at the end, you'll risk to feel tired to field the whole Ansar fire armed force made out of Perry Plastic advancing figures in a kind of marauding pose that remind me pheasant hunters :'(...THe advancing pose it's Ok for masses of spear armed natives but you'll then need some suitable figures, in more static poses, to be fielded, acting as skirmishers, behind cover and bushes. Mahdist forces where progressivly more and more armed with muskets/rifles. For example the Ansar armies that were succsefully confronted by Italians, Belgians and even French at Fashoda were mostly armed with firearms..in my opinion you'll need more than half figures of your musket armed force in firing positions..possibly even kneeling ones..you could also choose among less expensive but excellent musket /rifles armed castings from Essex, Old Glory and Bicorne/Conoisseur that offer both Bejas and Arab types in good firing positions. Even the old Minifigs one, that you could find second hand at bargain prices, have, among their colonial sudan range, a suitable kneeling firing pose which is, actually, a 28mm and compatible with other modern ranges.
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the Ansar armies that were succsefully confronted by Italians, Belgians and even French at Fashoda were mostly armed with firearms.
If you are interested in the Rejaf, Fashoda and Omdurman era, this isn't the kit for you anyway. None of the figures in it are suitable for that period.
In fact the Perry range isn't designed for that era at all, and discounting command figures, there are only two packs in their range I can think of that are suitable for it at all.
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@ italwars I have a third of my Hadendowa armed with rifles, in a range of poses including quite a lot actually firing.
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If you are interested in the Rejaf, Fashoda and Omdurman era, this isn't the kit for you anyway. None of the figures in it are suitable for that period.
In fact the Perry range isn't designed for that era at all, and discounting command figures, there are only two packs in their range I can think of that are suitable for it at all.
Partially true because the Ansar armies sent to those far borders of the Mahdist Empire of terror were also composed by more or less allied tribes and also by loaned slaver armies (enslaving and pillage were the main activities of the Ansar Armies that' the reason why they had some difficulties in being seen as agreeable people by the African populace they met) which number could be feed up also with those less clad plastic guys...for what concern Eritrean frontier the Beja looking guys of the plastic set are absoltuly similar to the tribes of that very area..some of which, according to my Italian sources, where recruited by the Emir's invading army.
By the way, the only real looking "modern Ansar" are, in my opinion, the Mahdist Arab figures by Essex 25mm (28mm in fact) ones..all in Jibbah , variation of headgear/heads including the late totally shaded heads and BL captured weapons.
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If you are interested in the Rejaf, Fashoda and Omdurman era, this isn't the kit for you anyway. None of the figures in it are suitable for that period.
In fact the Perry range isn't designed for that era at all, and discounting command figures, there are only two packs in their range I can think of that are suitable for it at all.
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Olicana
Mate do NOT buy the Perry Plastic Mahdists, you will only be disapointed..
I love Perry Miniatures , but That Box was one of the First Plastics they did , and they are just not very nice ...worse they are all mostly crouched forward. in a really "funny"" way
The metals on the other Hand are Superb ...!! Get those !!!!!!
They mix in Very well with Castaway Arts Mahdists , in Particular the Fuzzys are Wonderfull , and slot right into the Perrys size and style wise .
Cheers
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Olicana
Having said that .. maybe one box to do Conversions like Jack Jones ones .. very nice Bravo JJ..
Cheers
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Olicana
Having said that .. maybe one box to do Conversions like Jack Jones ones .. very nice Bravo JJ..
Cheers
Thank you!
Honestly … I have found the plastic Ansar / Mahdists to be really rather good. I haven’t found the poses to be too repetitive (I have around 250 figures, of which 86 are metal), and there are possibilities for simple conversions.
I would say buy a box and see how you get on with them. The price alone is compelling!
Cheers
JJ
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Thanks JJ.
The post about the Perry plastics not being very good had me worried.
I'm desperately trying to bring the Perry Sudan collection 'bulk buy order' in at under £1700.00. It's harder than it sounds. Already thinking of 32 man British units (four 60x45 stands of 8 men each - probably 30 men, 5 packs of 6, plus mounted colonel to save buying extra packs for some units) and Mahdist spears at 52 men (same size stands but, 8 stands of 6-7 men each per unit), just to trim the fat.
I wish I could get over single rank infantry units looking so weedy- then I could go 8 stands of 3 men each (on 45 x 45) for the brits and have eight company 24 man units. I'd still do the Mahdists in 48s but the size difference would mean I need less units for them.
It's such a mess! :-[
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Blimey!
I would advise that you try not to make a rod for your own back – the size of the lead pile will will sap your enthusiasm for the project! I have spent around £1,500 over the past four years, which is for everything from miniatures, paint, basing materials, scenic items, to books. I learned only to buy new miniatures when I those on my painting desk were almost finished. This allowed my units to develop within the bounds of a loose plan.
What size of actions do you want to play? And which scenarios … Desert Column, River Column, or Suakin campaigns? And which rules?
My Empire units are mostly 24 figures (based in twos and fours on 60mm x 60mm and 30mm x 60mm bases), and I think of these as ‘contingents’ rather than battalions, or even companies. This allows me to relax about their presence on the table.
My Hadendowa warriors are organised into bands of 16, including one leader (based in twos and threes on 60mm x 60mm and 30mm x 60mm bases), with three bands to a ‘rub’ with commander, drummer and two flag bearers.
Cheers
JJ
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Hi JJ,
I do it this way every time. I like to work to a plan and don't like ordering stuff in dribs and drabs.
Punic Wars 2,100 figs in one purchase. SYW 2,700 figures in two purchases. Crusades was 1,300 figures I picked up from Dave Thomas at a show and brought home by bus in a suitcase.
All done, one after the other, more or less.
Just finishing my Peninsular War stuff - three units (68 figures) left to paint. Peninsular British and French was just over 2,000 figs in one order (pretty much - I cocked up slightly and needed £300 worth of fillers), followed by a single order for the 700 Spanish figures I started painting in July 2022. The first order was so big it crashed Front Rank's online payment system and we had to do the order manually over the phone! The first parcel weighed over 28 Kg.
The only period I didn't do this way was the Italian Wars (1800 figs) but, that one is from a lot of different manufacturers and quite a bit bought second hand (unpainted) on ebay, back in its hey day.
The Perry Sudan order is done but not sent: £2021.50 worth but, it includes £300 worth of Crusades reinforcements.
I'll also be sending an order to Front Rank for another £400 worth of Peninsular extras at the same time.
Plus, at the same time, from Foundry (figs) and Warbases (buildings), I'm probably going to spend £400 on some Wild West skirmish stuff - because I need a land based beer and pretzel game. My other quick games are Xyston 1:600 Ancient Galleys (about 100 vessels), X Wing (about 100 ships), and Red Eagle 1:144 WWI aircraft for one on one dogfights (about 50 aircraft).
That will be most of my hobby budget done for the next 5 or so years - and I won't buy anything else until its all done. You have to remember that I'm doing this in my spare time - professionally I'm a full time figure painter. o_o
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@ olicana
Blimey! That’s some five year plan!
Cheers
JJ
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That’s some plan .I look forward to seeing it develop.
It took me 3 years of so to do the bulk of my Sudan - 2000 (1000 from the plastic box sets which took as long to build as they did to paint) figures to get it to do the game I wanted , then added another another 1000 over the next 2 years to bulk it out. Always more oddments to add
Good luck with it
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Olicana
Mate the Perry Plastics .. DONT DO IT ..
The numbers you are talking about are AWESOME .. LOVE IT ..!!
However the ASSEMBLY TIME ALONE on a project of that size .. Oh My God ..
It Took me aprox 7 hours to Assemble 52 Perry Plastic Zulu War Inf ... in your Plan that would be what X 30 = 210 Hours probably 230 ..and that could sap anyones , passion ..
In addition if you didnt then need therapy after that Waste of Time .. you will certainly need medication when you realise that after all that,... the Plastics Look Noticeably Inferior in every way to the Metals ..its not even close ....
I know of what I speak.
So Metal up Old Boy ...!!!!!
Cheers
Ps Check out The Castaway Miniatures Figures as well , they do have a couple of Duds in the Range( ( 6 out of 40) but some are simply Superb.. Perry Esque .. and you can order them in singles ..Happy Days ..
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There's no such thing as a free lunch. Either you pay with time or cash. I'm retired so I prefer time. Although I have a lot of metal figures collected over some 50 years of collecting, now that I'm retired I have shifted to mostly plastic figures. Assemble, paint, base, and repeat. By varying what I'm doing, I don't succumb to the tedium of what feels like the infinite overwhelming monotony of trying to assemble all the figure and then paint them all and then base them all. YMMV
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Fwiw I really enjoyed the assembly task … which didn’t take much longer than cleaning up the metal castings. (I do wish Perry Miniatures took more care with their casting and/or reviewed the quality of the moulds more often … which amounts to the same thing, I guess.)
Assembly and conversion took me all the way back to my mid-teens … and I am looking forward to the same sort of experience when I embark on my next project, which will take back even further to the late Middle Ages.
My projects are quite a bit smaller, so I do appreciate the scale of the assembly task in the OP’s case.
Cheers
JJ
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Like others that have posted, I have a bunch of Perry plastic and metal Sudanese, and find the plastics to be a lot better. I also find the Zulus plastics to be a good source of additional models with some conversions.
As the rifles, I tend to use a variety of the plastics to make up some armed Sudanese.
Some photos that might be of interest below.
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Arkoudaki
Mate those figures do look great !!!well done :-*
However I noticed they are all Conversions ,you simply cant do that for 500 Plus figures .
Metals are the go IMHO
Cheers
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Very cool.
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So, my Perry Miniatures order for the Sudan is almost completed.
After much deliberation (and many headaches) I've decided to go for 6 figures / 1 stand is equal to 80-100 men (a company, more or less). I've also decided to base my OOB on the historical ones. Mostly, it's down to reading Go Strong Into The Desert: It made me think about the small scale of the battles much more than I had previously.
For the Mahdists, I've gone 800 foot figures and 36 mounted (includes 10 boxes of plastic) plus commands. This equates to a Beja force of roughly 6500 infantry and 200 camel riders, plus a force of 6,500 Kordofan / Nile types with 400 cavalry. Each force will include 96 figures (roughly 1600 men) with rifles. I'm giving them two Krupps and a Gatling (converted crew required for MG) with roughly one model equalling 2-3 pieces. This seems to cover most of the bases for 1884-85.
For the Brits, I'm doing six coys of 6 figures each for Royal Irish, Berkshires, Marines, KRRC and the York and Lancaster; I'm doing eight coys each for the Gordons and Black Watch; I'm doing eight coys each for the 15th, 17th, 28th Bengal/Bombay NI; three squadrons of six figs each for the 10th Hussars, and four squadrons for the 19th hussars, plus a squadron of nine figs for the 9th Bengal Lancers; two stands of sailors; two Gatlings, a Gardner; three 7pdrs and a Krupp.
That looks like enough to do 2nd El Teb, Tamai and Tofrek.
On top of that I'm also doing the Mounted Infantry Regiment (4 stands, 24 infantry, 12 camels) from Camel Corps, which will be useful for the small numbers of mounted infantry in the above battles. Note, I'm going to allow 12 camels to transport 24 infantry: it's a fudge but, I'm not buying 24 transport camels.
My last decision is, should I go for the rest of the Camel Corps, or the Guards Brigade, or the bits and pieces I'd need for Ginnis, or make a start on the stuff needed for 1st El Teb? The budget is at breaking point (about £2000), so I can only choose to do one.
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@VonAkers....these are just some of the figs to make more variety out of the poses that come in the Perry plastic Ansar box. I find the Zulu plastics offers some good possibilities for conversions with the kneeling firing fig, wounded, shot/dead, etc. I have done 100s of the normal Perry Ansar poses....I take each main body pose and do a couple of sword variants, then the rest spears.
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Arkoudaki
Ye those all look very nice indeed.. Huzzah ...!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nice.