Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: SJWi on August 23, 2023, 08:13:24 AM
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Back in the 1980s and early '90s I had tried so-called "Ultra Modern", but had given up due to the complexity of the rulesets, Judging by how few times you see it on the tabletop or at shows I think many other players did the same. With the release of PSC's Battlegroup (BG) NORTHAG back in 2020 my friends and I decided to give the smaller scale a go....and then the Pandemic!
Roll on three years and I have played only a couple of small games, mainly limited by my 6 x 4' table. However the release of the 2nd CENTAG book a few months ago with stats and force lists for other than just BAOR and GSFG, we've re-ignited our interest. Last Sunday saw 6 of us play a quite large game at our local bricks and mortar store "Lost Ark" in Stevenage as they can provide the 8 x 6' table we needed. I had written a scenario set in early 1984 with a BAOR/Bundeswehr force taking on the might of Group Soviet Forces Germany (GSFG). I kept it to armour, infantry and artillery so didn't add the complexities of minefields or battlefield engineering.
What follows won't be a blow-by-blow account of the game, but a reflection on PSC's rules and how they worked.
Unlike BG WW2, these rules are aimed at 10mm figures not the 15 or 20mm of the WW2 version. That's primarily because PSC produce a 10mm range, the rules work perfectly well with 6mm. Indeed the author states that the ground scale and weapon ranges are more realistic in 6mm. The main obvious change compared to WW2 is that infantry is now organised in multi-base fireteams, and there is no individual figure removal. Who has individually based 6mm figures?
The core mechanisms are quite similar to BG WW2, so I'll pick out the main differences.
The game starts with limited troops on the table, being the Recce screen and then gradually more is added until the mainforces arrive.
Organic Battlegroup artillery is limited to mortars and light howitzers. Most heavy stuff and airstrikes and limited to pre-planned, timed strikes.
As well as orders for individual teams/vehicles you can use platoon or in the case of GSFG, Company orders. This allows units to all do the same thing albeit with a limited choice of actions. Our observation was that this was quite a nice mechanism and in particular reflected perceived Soviet doctrine.
Reserves. As well as your initial forces, a player is allocated and can buy additional forces to come on later in the game. This was seen as a very nice mechanism that reflected the Soviet doctrine as they tend to lose a lot in the early stages, and balance of reserves favours the Soviet player.
As most of us hadn't played NORTHAG for several years ( or indeed ever), we didn't manage to play through to a conclusion but did manage 10 turns in about 4 hours of gametime. At over 1000 points per side it was a large game in NORTHAG terms, and we did have added complexities of airstrikes and helicopter gunships arriving which took some sorting out. Most of us were veterans of the UK guided weapons industry and were quite keen to see how the weapons we had worked on played in the rules .The answer was that they weren't the world-beaters we hoped, which was probably an accurate reflection on the technology of the time.
Cold War gaming of the early '80s is a difficult topic, as thankfully we don't have any real history to test our rules against. By the time of the "hot shooting war " of Gulf War 1, technology had moved on and I'm not at all sure you can apply the lessons learnt backwards to 1984. We thought BG NORTHAG gave a fun game that offers different challenges to both sides, and balances playability vs the technology complexity. Our main observation was over the orders system which some love, others hate. I find it OK but was surprised to find a force has the same number of orders irrespective of the forces on the table . This means in turns one and two virtually everything can do anything it wants .Not sure if that is the intention, but it is the result!
For information the BAOR forces were Heroics and Ros, Bundeswehr and GSFG mainly GHQ. Airpower and infantry similarly by H&R. Buildings I think mainly Timecast with a 3D printed power station.
Next Sunday I'm probably trying my 1/300 Danes with their pimped-up M41s vs the Soviet Naval Infantry with T55s.
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Very interesting comments.
I hope your next game goes well too.
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Thanks for that, and the great table pics. I just bought both books, NORTHAG and CENTAG, and am reading through for my 6mm legions waiting anxiously in the motor pool.
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Fred, I don't think you'll regret the purchases. I was a tad disappointed NORTHAG only covered BAOR and Soviet core armoured formations, but waiting for 2nd books covering other forces seems to be par for the course with rulesets these days. I would say that given the background of the genre, a satisfying game benefits from good scenario planning . This isn't just a throw 500 points of kit onto the table game. I'm also unsure if the rules need the attacker ( normally GSFG) to have more points than the defender (normally NATO) or if the numbers advantage of the Warsaw Pact is somehow factored into the existing points system .The Soviet Bloc gets a lot of kit for its points compared to NATO! I might have expected something in the rules explaining the background philosophy but there isn't.
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Interesting read. Thanks.
I was put off NORTHAG by the uninspiring PSC vehicles, using 6mm might make me change my mind (somewhere I have some 'eighties 6mm forces that should fill most of the slots).
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Totally agree about the PSC vehicles. If you want 10mm I would look at Red 3 Miniatures or Timecast. However they are over £4 per vehicle whilst H&R MBTs are still 85p each! The new H&R stuff is very nice. I'd stick with 1/300. I can't see any downsides to it.
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Ditto the plug for micro scale for the modern (or even WWII) period. The scale ranges always look a bit better to me, even though the infantry bases/tiles can look a bit odd angling off the top of a building and so forth. 10mm and up, especially 20mm, looks great to me for smaller scale encounters, or in more infantry-centric combat with small fire teams or individual bases.
NORTHAG/CENTAG appealed in part because they align with some reading I've been doing, as well as the massive Thin Red Line boardgames I've been mortgaging the house for.
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Nicely done and quite nostalgic for me.
I had vast 6mm Soviet and British forces back in the day, when it was still ultra-modern. We faffed about forever with Challenger/ Challenger II, which had useful army list books but were fairly pedestrian and overly complex rules, pretty much on par with the WRG rules we had sought to replace. One day someone brought around Combined Arms, the modern version of Command Decision and we never looked back. Elegant and playable, still my benchmark for a decent set of rules.
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Carlos, interesting. From what I remember "Combined Arms" was never that popular or easy to obtain this side of the Pond. With a few notable exceptionsThe rules market was pretty well dominated by WRG and TTG. We have also tried Pendraken's "Cold War Commander" for our 1/600 moderns. Quite why we have both 1/300 and 1/600.....plus 15mm are decisions lost in the mists of time. I think is was driven by impulse buys at shows.
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I got mine at Vermin Games, Oxford Street.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_ug61liBPok/XDKA8nNoYRI/AAAAAAAAElg/rGly9BA4VbUCVxWyGupkmifq8Xg70p87wCEwYBhgL/s1600/combinedarmsrules.png)
I suppose having more than one games shop locally was an advantage.
The one tank is three to four tanks scaling was something that felt odd at the time.
https://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/2019/01/twilight-2000-reference-material-2.html (https://ultravanillasmurf.blogspot.com/2019/01/twilight-2000-reference-material-2.html)
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Having any games shop nearby is a big advantage. I went nearly 30 years without a local wargaming store. Luckily the local gaming store is run by a wargamer who has slowly expanded from boardgames and card games into table-top historical. I agree about the 1 tank represents three of four feeling odd. That's the same with Cold War Commander, and we are using 1/600 with 3 tanks on a 30 x 30mm base. Luckily most are 3d printed so cheap as chips!
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It creates some minor anomalies as platoon strengths aren't always equal but the internal logic is sound. In CA/CD you are playing a battalion or brigade commander, the smallest unit you are going to be worrying about is platoon and in fact you are really issuing orders to command elements at company level. The Rea-Taylor stable essentially encouraged people to micromanage where they shouldn't, faffing about with individual tanks like some gigantic skirmish game. Curiously they used different sized infantry elements mixed with individual AFVs.
Matter of taste I suppose but we are all quite happy with figure ratios with ancients, Napoleonics etc, etc, no reason not to for 20th C and beyond games.
What I liked about CA/CD was it placed the emphasis on command and control (perhaps more forgivingly than some other more recent games) but it did force you to make the sort of command decisions you would expect at the level the game was pitched at. The more recent TOB/ CD4 has simplified the mechanics and dispensed with some of the chit clutter and has IMO improved the game.
We used to regularly get bogged down a few turns into previous games, CA/CD got stuff done and in an enjoyable manner. Of course by contrast we were also attempting to play the truy ghastly Empire and later on the equally mind bending Harpoon.
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It creates some minor anomalies as platoon strengths aren't always equal but the internal logic is sound. In CA/CD you are playing a battalion or brigade commander, the smallest unit you are going to be worrying about is platoon and in fact you are really issuing orders to command elements at company level. The Rea-Taylor stable essentially encouraged people to micromanage where they shouldn't, faffing about with individual tanks like some gigantic skirmish game. Curiously they used different sized infantry elements mixed with individual AFVs.
I use Fistful of TOWs for my modern 6mm wargames which is at the same scale where one base/stand = platoon/troop. Once I got my head around each base representing more than a single tank or squad, I managed to get away from the need to represent every track, weapon and box of beans on table. It also meant I didn't need to get bogged down with trying to find individual squad and platoon TO&Es to ensure I had the right number of little men on table.
Morale of the story - A battalion commander doesn't need to know how many grenades a squad has, he just needs to know whether the unit is still effective :D
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Splod, tried FFoTs and didn't like them. We perservered as my mate had spent a lot of money on them, but I recall the artillery in particular overly complex.
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As Colours is coming up soon so NORTHAG could be a spontaneous purchase, how are infantry based?
I had been tempted to base them up on Renedra bases (I remember spending ages cutting up plastic card in two sizes for Challenger, then it changing to one size for Challenger 2).
Are there rules reasons for square, rectangular or round bases?
Thanks in advance.
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Are there rules reasons for square, rectangular or round bases?
No, my 6mm chaps are based by section in extended line on a rectangular base. Never understood why size and shape of base in modern games makes any difference, of course one could go the hold hog and have multiple bases for each section, arrowhead, file, single file, extended line, extended line in open terrain, gun group right, gun group left!
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We used to regularly get bogged down a few turns into previous games, CA/CD got stuff done and in an enjoyable manner. Of course by contrast we were also attempting to play the truy ghastly Empire and later on the equally mind bending Harpoon.
I remember a weekend Challenger 2 game based on the opening of Team Yankee (borrowed directly from the GDW board game of the same name).
We started at 1100 and completed the first round about 1500.
I think the next round only took a couple of hours.
By about 1900 the sole surviving T72 exited off the west side of the table pursued by the survivors of the US team.
It did make for an interesting start to the next game.
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Never understood why size and shape of base in modern games makes any difference...
Thanks.
Some rules use edge of base for range determination, so a 30mm base will be closer than a 20mm base at the same centres.
If bases have no effect, then maybe some Renedra round ones will look the part.
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To be honest I don't think it matters what size base you choose or even how many figures are on it. Notionally some armies have 4 man fireteams and others 5, but as long ad people know its just a representation that's OK. I have 4-5 figures on a 30 x 30mm base with. ATGW and HMG and command teams on 1p coins. I see Heroics and Ros will be at Colours. I recommend working our a list of what you want and leaving it for the owner to sort out whilst you look round the show.
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Thanks.
I probably need to find my existing 6mm armies to see what I have (and then I can add something to this... https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=120304.msg1507749#msg1507749 (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=120304.msg1507749#msg1507749)
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The new H&R models are really nice. OK not as exquisite as GHQ but at less than 1/3 of the price they'll do for me. I think Colours is one of the few shows he attends, albeit I do see him on the list for Warfare in November.
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I remember the days of Ultra-Modern. Now it's ancient history. :D
Totally agree about about H&R as well. Lovely figures that do the job and I've had good service from them in the last few years.
Nice terrain too. I liked the power station.
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Hmmm, not managed to dig out my 'eighties models, so I have used the two PSC starter armies as the basis of a list (I will have a look at my BRT Digests as well).
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I guess BRT is Bruce-Rea-Taylor.....a real blast from the past. From memory his stuff was pretty accurate. I'd still go 1/300 as I think (a) the ground scale looks better and (b) you can only find many of the nationalities/vehicles in 1/300. That said the Red3 Miniatures 10mm stuff is beautiful but far more expensive than 1/300. I'm now contemplating a Polish amphibious force as in the 1980s they were potentially tasked with Baltic Operations including vs the Danes.
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Yes.
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oW6k5H-ba5A/XDKA71S0p2I/AAAAAAAAElI/ZlYxmS5r-6Qygv7icxK1nHyUj2bMV_zxwCLcBGAs/s1600/challengerrules.png)
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0af0GMlJDKg/XDKEgF6uioI/AAAAAAAAEls/DrNLIhKU8no2d0QH3NFyZb4SFxbeceeEACLcBGAs/s1600/digests.png)
Definitely 1/300. It is going to be scary with four Chieftains and four FV432s facing off against ten T64 and ten BTR-60s.
I meant the description rather than the content of the starter sets.
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I guess you don't yet have the rules as the BAOR and GSFG lists/ORBATs are in there. What you describe is about 320 points worth of Russkies vs 250 points worth of Brits. After playing 2 games I'm unsure if you need to give the attacker a points advantage, or if the "attacker disadvantage" is factored into the points cost of the Soviet companies plus their special "company level" order ability. Happy to give you more ORBAT detail from NORTHAG to help your planning if you want it.
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Thanks. No I have not got the rules yet.
I will get the "starter" forces above and the rules hopefully at Colours and see how it goes.
Somewhere there is a box of unpainted H&R (and Scotia and GHQ) in addition to the painted US, Soviet and British armies.
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As Colours is coming up soon so NORTHAG could be a spontaneous purchase, how are infantry based?
I had been tempted to base them up on Renedra bases (I remember spending ages cutting up plastic card in two sizes for Challenger, then it changing to one size for Challenger 2).
Are there rules reasons for square, rectangular or round bases?
Thanks in advance.
What scale are you think of ?
My gaming group uses rectangular bases, 50mm x 25mm for a squad of 4 infantry figures. Our scale is 1/144th (10/12mm)
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Having just secured the NORTHAG and CENTAG books here in the Bazaar, I'm now looking into getting some forces other than my TY 15mm ones.
They're nice, but 15mm is a bit large to represent a reasonable battle on the table outside of very small skirmishes in this era and theatre.
So I'm now in the market for 6mm stuff. I was looking at GHQ, but they're rather dear and have only a very small selection of Dutch units. Heroics & Ros look to have a good selection, but the shop is rather lacking in pictures of their products.
But at that price point, I'm ok with a bit of a gamble. How is their service?
And are there any more suitable players?
I'm mostly looking for a decent Dutch force right now and some Polish or East-German opfor...
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Having just secured the NORTHAG and CENTAG books here in the Bazaar, I'm now looking into getting some forces other than my TY 15mm ones.
They're nice, but 15mm is a bit large to represent a reasonable battle on the table outside of very small skirmishes in this era and theatre.
So I'm now in the market for 6mm stuff. I was looking at GHQ, but they're rather dear and have only a very small selection of Dutch units. Heroics & Ros look to have a good selection, but the shop is rather lacking in pictures of their products.
But at that price point, I'm ok with a bit of a gamble. How is their service?
And are there any more suitable players?
I'm mostly looking for a decent Dutch force right now and some Polish or East-German opfor...
Ros & Heroics made decent little models. They weren't anywhere near as detailed as GHQ or CinC but they were respectable enough when painted and they weren't the dross that was much of Navwar and all of Donnington/Irregular. I started with H&R and then gradually replaced them with GHQ as the budget allowed.
Scotia are a good second choice if you aren't going for GHQ.
Can't comment on customer service, they were all locally distributed back when I was still buying micro armour.
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Daeothar, 6mm is a good call for use with BG NORTHAG. I use 15mm for small-scale games such as "Seven Days to the River Rhine", but opted for 6mm with larger-scale NORTHAG battles. If starting again I might have gone 10mm for SDttRR. However 10mm vehicles are circa 4 times the price of 6mm!
All my 6mm moderns are H&R. They aren't as well detailed as GHQ but are about 1/3 of the price and his latest vehicles are very nice. I have British, East German and Danish. I've never had a problem ordering from him, albeit I have always pre-ordered and collected at a show.
If you want some 1980s "German" buildings I'd look at the Timecast range. Very nice and not badly priced.
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Cheers guys :)
This is a completely new scale for me, so terrain will have to follow as well, but I'm actually kind of stoked to get to it (as if I need another scale and setting ::) ): I've been toying with the idea since the early nineties.
I'll throw an order at H&R at the start of the new year...
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Ros & Heroics made decent little models. They weren't anywhere near as detailed as GHQ or CinC but they were respectable enough when painted and they weren't the dross that was much of Navwar and all of Donnington/Irregular. I started with H&R and then gradually replaced them with GHQ as the budget allowed.
Scotia are a good second choice if you aren't going for GHQ.
Can't comment on customer service, they were all locally distributed back when I was still buying micro armour.
I agree (though I only had H&R, GHQ and Scotia - the latter supplying the US https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#9th_Infantry_Division_(Motorized) (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_Infantry_Division_(United_States)#9th_Infantry_Division_(Motorized)) kit).
I bought GHQ from Virgin Games and the other two by sending bits of compressed vegetable matter by Snail Mail, so my customer service knowledge is 30 years out of date
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Having just secured the NORTHAG and CENTAG books here in the Bazaar, I'm now looking into getting some forces other than my TY 15mm ones.
They're nice, but 15mm is a bit large to represent a reasonable battle on the table outside of very small skirmishes in this era and theatre.
So I'm now in the market for 6mm stuff. I was looking at GHQ, but they're rather dear and have only a very small selection of Dutch units. Heroics & Ros look to have a good selection, but the shop is rather lacking in pictures of their products.
But at that price point, I'm ok with a bit of a gamble. How is their service?
And are there any more suitable players?
I'm mostly looking for a decent Dutch force right now and some Polish or East-German opfor...
Have you considered 10/12mm ? There are quite a few manufacturers out there, Minifigs, Butlers, Red 3, Timecast, Pendraken and of course PSC.
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Vulture, some of the 10mm stuff is very nice but the vehicles are 3-4 times the price of H&R 6mm. If you are planning large-scale NORTHAG games that is quite a ££ investment. In some ways I wish I'd gone 10mm instead of 15mm for my Seven Days to the River Rhine project.
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You make a very good point.
A Pendraken T64A is £3.50, a Chieftain £4.50.
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As opposed to H&R whose MBTs are generically 85p each! One minor issue with H&R is that when I bought mine a few years ago there were a mix of "old sculpts" and "new". The former were OK-ish but rather dated. The new ones are very nice, if not at GHQ standard . You could tell which were which as the new ones cost 10p more. Today all are the same price. What I don't know is if all the codes have been re-sculpted.
I can still see a position in the market for both scales. IMHO if anything 10mm will replace 15mm due to the sheer size of modern tanks even in 15mm.
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As opposed to H&R whose MBTs are generically 85p each! One minor issue with H&R is that when I bought mine a few years ago there were a mix of "old sculpts" and "new". The former were OK-ish but rather dated. The new ones are very nice, if not at GHQ standard . You could tell which were which as the new ones cost 10p more. Today all are the same price. What I don't know is if all the codes have been re-sculpted.
I can still see a position in the market for both scales. IMHO if anything 10mm will replace 15mm due to the sheer size of modern tanks even in 15mm.
I still have buried up in my loft multiple armies in 1/300th, but with increasing age comes increasingly poor sight LOL, and from that point of view 10mm is a better scale to work and game with. As pointed out in an earlier posting, not a cheap scale though...
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Vulture, understand. However the detail on 10mm is now so good that they take a lot of painting to do them justice