Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: WorkShy on 30 August 2023, 01:28:25 PM
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I'm looking at moving on to Welsh 7th/8th century but I'm not hugely keen on the choices. It's small ranges of metal from GB and Footsore (so little variation and harder to mod). Footsore "Early Welsh" seems 10/11th century. They all seem to have this idea of bare legs, bare feet (even one shoe!). This seems to stem from a small number of sources, often biased against the Welsh, and hundreds of years after the period I'm focussed on.
It's similar with the Irish and Picts. Loads of bare legs and feet. Except those with bare torsos who often magically aquire full length trousers! By contrast representations of the Romano-British of the 5th/6th centuries typically have trousers, shoes etc.
So does Cadwallon'a army in say 633 really need bare legs and feet? Do you see this characteristic as genuinely tangible or just a visual trope to allow differentiation between "Celts" and Saxons minis?
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This was one thing that use to wind me up as well, but in the case of Ireland and Scotland there's documentary evidence of country people going barefoot well into the 19th century. This wasn't because they lacked shoes, rather that the shoes would get soaking wet in no time - so either you needed several pairs of shoes per day or risked catching a cold/developing trench foot from constantly wearing sodden shoes. Not sure what the evidence is for Wales, mind you.
Personally, I imagine I'd probably want to slip my shoes on before having a scrap, but then again, with no grip on the soles this might not be the best idea either.
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I'm an absolute noob on the subject (so please take my statements in that light!), but to me it seems that calluses from walking barefoot are well and good in warm and dry climates, but once skin gets wet for a longer time, it gets soft and easier to penetrate, especially the insides of hands and soles of feet.
So while walking barefoot on rough ground is not an issue, once those same feet get wet, they are much more prone to piercing/cutting by sharp rocks or even twigs, regardless of the calluses. And, as mentioned, contemporary accounts on different armies relatively close by, both geographical and temporal, have them all shoed and trousered. And I'm adding my own logical thinking here too; it does not really make sense to go barefoot into battle. Besides; there is enough evidence to suggest that shoes could be made (relatively) watertight, even this far back.
All of which makes me believe that the biased accounts simply tend to paint the Welch and Irish in a bad light (in this case, primitive/barbarous), as is often the case of course. Same thing with Germanic and Gaulic tribes fighting naked as described by the Romans; sure there might have been isolated occurrences, but the majority would have fought clothed. It does make for a more spectacular read though...
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My first Wargaming opponent (Steve O'Leary AKA Oscar, are you still wargaming? Whiggy)
a proud Welshman (despite the Irish name), was very happy to boast about the 'One shoe'.
Claimed it gave them better grip on rough terrain.
Also
I do recall reading of an American Colonel(?) going barefoot for his first month in
Vietnam (a definitely soggy country) to toughen his feet. Weeks of agony, but then
the soles of his feet were tougher than the Army boots.
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In Osprey's recently released book on Post-Roman Kingdoms (5-th to 8th centuries), all of the recreations (including Welsh) are shown wearing some form of footwear and only one of them is not wearing full length trousers (7th century Welsh from Alt Clut partially bare legged).
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In Osprey's recently released book on Post-Roman Kingdoms (5-th to 8th centuries), all of the recreations (including Welsh) are shown wearing some form of footwear and only one of them is not wearing full length trousers (7th century Welsh from Alt Clut partially bare legged).
I've got that book and I did notice that aswell. Though I'm always careful not to assign to much weight to any Osprey book. The academic quality is variable and there is an awful lot of extrapolation from small samples of information (otherwise some of these books would struggle to be more than a few pages in length!).
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I am happy to accept that they went barefoot or with just one shoe so that they would be easily distinguishable on the wargaming table hundreds of years later lol
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I am happy to accept that they went barefoot or with just one shoe so that they would be easily distinguishable on the wargaming table hundreds of years later lol
lol lol lol
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Everyone knows that the real distinguishing feature of the Welsh is having one leg shorter than the other. ;)
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Everyone knows that the real distinguishing feature of the Welsh is having one leg shorter than the other. ;)
Inclined to be Welsh? lol lol lol
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Sniper's nightmare when they bob from side to side walking like that lol
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The clever sniper just puts his point of aim about 18 inches above the sheep in front of the target.
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The clever sniper just puts his point of aim about 18 inches above the sheep in front of the target.
Naughty! :D
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The clever sniper just puts his point of aim about 18 inches above the sheep in front of the target.
lol lol
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I think this is one of those things that you can do as you see fit. If you want Welsh bare foot then go for it but it would be hard to prove they didn’t have shoes if you used figures that are shod.
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I think this is one of those things that you can do as you see fit. If you want Welsh bare foot then go for it but it would be hard to prove they didn’t have shoes if you used figures that are shod.
Or base them in long grass. :D
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I think this is one of those things that you can do as you see fit. If you want Welsh bare foot then go for it but it would be hard to prove they didn’t have shoes if you used figures that are shod.
Completely true. I think the issue is that the Welsh minis sets are typically metal and I really wanted plastic/resin. Plus, I don't really like the GB Welsh Soapy sculpts and the Footsore Welsh seem quite late period. The only plastic Welsh are GB and they are (in my view) pretty awful when compared to the newer Victrix plastic sets for Late Roman and Dark Age. In those Victrix sets though the minis all have long trousers and shoes.
I think my compromise is probably to mod the Victrix minis to have short trousers but leave the shoes on. Plus some mustaches on the heads. I must admit I find it hard to be convinced that a 7thy century Welsh warband went around with no shoes but Saxons ones did. I do think it's basically a wargaming trope based on flimsy evidence. A bit like early Saxons having small bucklers.
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I'd say Saxons for the 7th or 8th century aren't particularly well covered either.
Do some of the victrix Late Romans have short trousers but their lower legs have puttees?
You could combine bits of the victrix germanic warriors with the late Romans to give a bit of a different look. (mustaches)
Although it might be better to combine Wargames Atlantic Irish or Goths with their late romans? (Which admittedly don't look as good as the victrix ones.
Or just use the the Victrix late Romans and when they come out mix with bits from the forthcoming Victrix early Saxons?
Or...
Combine Gripping beast plastic Saxons bits with their plastic Welsh and possibly some late roman bits too?
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Just as a ‘thing’, my father, born 106 years ago, was the youngest of 13, but part of a fairly typical family.
He had an older brother who went to school in girls boots, but nobody said anything ….. because he at least had something on his feet, many didn’t.
It’s just an observation that you don’t have to go far back in time to see that footwear was not the universal right or expectation that it is today 🙂
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Just as a ‘thing’, my father, born 106 years ago, was the youngest of 13, but part of a fairly typical family.
He had an older brother who went to school in girls boots, but nobody said anything ….. because he at least had something on his feet, many didn’t.
It’s just an observation that you don’t have to go far back in time to see that footwear was not the universal right or expectation that it is today 🙂
For sure. My Grandad went bare foot in 1920's Scotland - couldn't afford shoes.
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The one shoed Welsh bowmen and spearmen that appear on wargames tables across the world are a pain.
This idea comes from a couple of marginal illustrations in the Littere Wallie – a collection of letters and official documents from 1217 to 1297 collected by the English Exchequer and transcribed by Sir John Goronwy Edwards and published in 1940.
They spawned lots of similar representations of Welsh mediaeval foot soldiers with one shoe on and one shoe off. Google a reason for this and you will get that rationalisation that they got a better grip on rough ground. Few if any of those who trot this out have actually thought about it or tried it.
It may be that they went around shod on only one side. However, magical, mystical, mythical stories abound about heroes with one shoe or one foot placed in special places and poses in Celtic and Norse mythology. Vidarr the son of Odin kills the Fenris Wolf wearing a magical shoe. The image appears in early medieval stone carvings in England – the Gosforth Cross in Cumberland, in the Isle of Man – Kirk Andreas and Sweden – The Ledberg Cross. Lleu Llaw Gyffes can only be killed with one foot in a cauldron and the other on a goat, and of course gets killed in that position, unlucky huh? Further back still, in the Aeneid, Praeneste’s soldiers appear, one shoe on, one shoe off.
What appears to be going on is more of a representation of a myth of a great warrior or hero rather than an actual hairy Welshmen in battle (or not hairy according to Gerald of Wales). Maybe they did only wear one shoe in battle but I am prepared to guess that if so it was in honour of one of these myths or taboos rather than any inherent practical advantage in having one foot frozen and soaking all the time.
Just to confuse the matter a little, we need to be careful of who was really being represented in these drawings and descriptions in mediaeval documents. Several French descriptions of shoeless vagabond low life in English armies call them Irish: eg Jean de Wavrin describing the siege of Rouen in 1418 – but these were probably Welsh, and appear to be sans shoes at all rather than seul chaussure. Celtic cannon (arrow?) fodder were commonly lumped under the first name that came to mind (the ‘Irish’ frequently massacred by the Parliamentary forces in the ECW in England were probably mostly Welsh and probably the latest example of this).
You also have to consider that it was an English habit to portray those whose cultures they were destroying as deserving of being ‘saved from themselves’ as they were so backward. Bare feet and legs in pictures and text may just be a way of saying ‘we’re better than you.’
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You only have to think for a few seconds that a single shoe is a crazy idea. Unless the Welsh had one leg longer than the other. Most of what troops do is walk, lots of walking. One shoe would be a nightmare if it had any kind of sole.
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You only have to think for a few seconds that a single shoe is a crazy idea. Unless the Welsh had one leg longer than the other. Most of what troops do is walk, lots of walking. One shoe would be a nightmare if it had any kind of sole.
Possibly saving the other one for Sunday Best.
With any luck that flippant remark will cause the next range of Welsh to have parade dress and campaign dress versions. Anyone challenges the historical fidelity of that , just tell them that a bloke Giraldus met at the pub in Abergavenny said so. ;)
One would have thought that the ever present risk of dripping melted cheese on one's feet would have mitigated against one or no shoes. I suppose the Welsh are inured to such everyday risks.
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One would have thought that the ever present risk of dripping melted cheese on one's feet would have mitigated against one or no shoes. I suppose the Welsh are inured to such everyday risks.
That would be a rare bit of cheese ;)