Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Hobgoblin on September 19, 2023, 05:44:18 PM
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This is a similar question to the one I asked about Sherden on the 'Age of Myth' forum: what are the options in 25mm (or at least small 28mm) for medievals?
This is for my long-running but slow-burning RPG project. I'm gradually assembling a large lot of miniatures for old-school D&D (and the like), basing them on pennies/20mm rounds if human-sized. The reason for this is that slightly smaller miniatures and bases make standard dungeon floorplans and layouts bigger and more interesting - you can cluster adventurers or their foes together much more easily. I'd originally started the project in 1/72, but there are just more adventurer options (especially female adventurers) available in 25mm.
For character figures, I'm using a mix of Ral Partha, RAFM, Tin Soldier, Grenadier (both the very early stuff and the Julie Guthrie range), Denizen and some very old Citadel. These figures aren't all the same in terms of height and proportion, but they work together OK.
At the moment, I'm exploring options for medieval NPCs to go alongside them. I like playing D&D with lots of retainers and henchmen, so a fair number of knights/men-at-arms/town guards/brigands/armed peasants will come in handy.
So what are the options in 25mm? The old Foundry/Citadel Wars of the Roses range might tick quite a lot of the boxes; the few armoured men-at-arms I have are really quite small for 28mm and will work quite well, I think - especially as they're in full plate. But the Foundry/Citadel feudals would be too big.
As this is D&D at its most kitchen-sink (androids, pig-faced orcs and jousting will probably all feature!), anachronism isn't a problem. I'm particularly interested in full-helm-and-surcoat 13th/14th-century-style knights, and I don't mind a bit of quaintness/old-school charm. For instance, were the Essex knights 25mm rather than chunky 28mm, I'd buy a whole lot of them for this project.
Searching online is surprisingly frustrating because Google often provides 28mm results for 25mm searches! And I'm conscious that there may be some smaller manufacturers out there that I'm overlooking. And this is exactly the kind of project where you settle on one thing and submit an order, only to discover that there's something better out there!
Any pointers much appreciated! I'm in the UK, so would really only be looking at British manufacturers.
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Well, Wargames Foundry Medieval ranges (Feudal, HYW and Wars of the Roses; except Dave Andrew's Swiss) are one of the original Citadel ranges and are about 25mm.
Old Glory has a vast range in 25mm.
Eagle Miniatures do a 25mm Medieval range too.
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Try Wargames Design Workshop, who have the old QT multipart historical amongst other older 25mm ranges.
https://wargamesdesignworkshop.co.uk/
They also have some really nice old Dixon 25mm dwarfs, if you're interested in that sort of thing.
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Some older ranges from the 1970’s still sell 25mm figures. For example:
Hinchcliffe, now sold by Lancashire Games
Lamming Miniatures
Similarly some other older ranges, such as those listed below, can either be described as large 25mm figures small 28mm, depending on your point of view.
Miniature Figurines
Essex Miniatures
Navigator Miniatures, as sold by Magister Millitum
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Essex Miniatures
Essex are chunky-ish and 28mm.
Navigator Miniatures, as sold by Magister Millitum
Two other good suggestions.
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Thanks so much, gents! This is exactly what I'd hoped for: I'd completely overlooked a lot of these (Eagle, WDW, Navigator, Lancashire/Hinchliffe) - and with some that I did know (like Old Glory), I'd taken at their word as 28mm.
There are also some great options for character figures in among that lot - this Navigator guy for example:
(https://www.magistermilitum.com/media/catalog/product/cache/e21fa37fa1f8a1070c16cbadba0d2eeb/s/c/sc12.jpg)
They also have some really nice old Dixon 25mm dwarfs, if you're interested in that sort of thing.
I am indeed - thanks!
Galtisant/Atheling - yes, Essex are a bit too big for this project. I have another slow-burning project underway: Arthurian fantasy in 28mm; the few Essex medievals I have are comfortably at home on 25mm rounds for that and are hefty fellows at that scale.
Essex bugbears, on the other hand, are just perfect for this project. In fact, one of the things that makes 25mm ideal for this is that it keeps a lot of old monster miniatures looking the part (Minifigs gnolls are quite dainty by modern standards, but they're easily 7' tall in 25mm, for example, so they work as 2HD monsters).
Well, Wargames Foundry Medieval ranges (Feudal, HYW and Wars of the Roses; except Dave Andrew's Swiss) are one of the original Citadel ranges and are about 25mm.
My recollection/experience is there's a fair divide between the old Perry Wars of the Roses on the one hand and the feudal and HYW stuff on the other. For the 28mm Arthurian project, I'm using a lot of old Citadel knights (preslotta Knights of Law among them). I'd assumed that the Citadel WotR stuff would work with that. But when I dug out a couple of figures, I found that they were too small (they looked like kids), so reassigned them to the 25mm one, where I think they work OK. From memory, the feudals (who were slottabased originally) are at least as big as the Knights of Law, etc.
I think the Foundry ex-Citadel Vikings and Saxons are in the same boat: they're a bigger ex-slotta range that would tower above the preslotta Norsemen of Kremlo the Slann vintage. Foundry don't do the Kremlo lot, which is a shame as some of those were lovely.
But I could be wrong on some or all of the above (or the figures could have shrunk in the remoulding process!).
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Atheling, thinking about it, you are probably right about most Essex figures, but I do have several of the Essex mounted Medieval knights and do consider them relatively small compared with many modern “28mm” figures. The riders do blend in with other 28mm figures, but the horses are noticeably smaller. In particular the horses have very short legs and are quite slim.
The photos shown here: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=137945.msg1755297#msg1755297 include pictures of an Essex rider on a Mirliton horse (both painted green) and an unpainted Essex horse. They compared with figures from several other manufacturers.
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The photos shown here: https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=137945.msg1755297#msg1755297 include pictures of an Essex rider on a Mirliton horse (both painted green) and an unpainted Essex horse. They compared with figures from several other manufacturers.
Aha - that's a great link, Galtisant! I had a dim recollection of it but couldn't remember where it was. Many thanks for posting it (and for the earlier tips)!
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When Essex first came out figures were 25mm, so they were sold as...25mm.
Now figures are 28mm, so they are sold as 28mm. :?
I like them, but they used to be larger than other 25mm figures.
Now they are smaller than other 28mm figures. Which is fine if
your force is all Essex, as is my matched pair of Punic War DBA armies,
& as was (till I sold them) my six Egyptian, friends & foes armies.
If you are looking at 'true' 25mm I suggest Mini-Fig (Fantasy and Historical) though
if you get lucky on e-bay Garrison figures can occasionally picked up for reasonable prices.
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Irregular Miniatures also are 25mm.
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Thanks, both!
Minifigs are definitely on the cards (I have a few humans of various sorts, along with a lot of the monsters).
Irregular Miniatures also are 25mm.
Ah - now that I did not know! I'd always assumed they were quite big and chunky (like the 15mm ranges). They have some nice stuff lurking in their massive lists - I like the late-medieval knights, not least because they do foot and mounted variants, which is perfect for RPGs. The Vikings look nice too, and there are lots of candidates for generic town guards and bandits.
One useful thing about Irregular are the 'variants on theme'. So you can put down 10 'evil knights' or 'barbarian raiders' on the table, and they'll all look the same but different. That's quite handy for D&D, etc.
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Denizen Miniatures are 25mm and they’re aces:
http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm02.htm]] http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm02.htm (http://www.denizenminiatures.co.[url=http://)
http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm06.htm (http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm06.htm)
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Denizen Miniatures are 25mm and they’re aces:
http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm02.htm]] http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm02.htm (http://www.denizenminiatures.co.[url=http://)
http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm06.htm (http://www.denizenminiatures.co.uk/files/25mm06.htm)
Yeah, Denizen are great. I've got a good few on the painting table as player characters - and some of the monsters too. They don't really have the range for "town guards" or "evil baron's henchmen", though - which is why I'm looking for medievals.
One great thing about Denizen is that their dwarves are the same size as Ral Partha dwarves, which allows me to use many dwarves without the risk of some of them being taller than the 25mm humans! Yesterday, Swiftnick very kindly sent me some Caesar 1/72 dwarves, and I was delighted to find that they fit in nicely with the Denizen and Ral Partha ones too.
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Have you considered 3D prints? I’ve bought some nice Vae Victis stuff from Etsy printed at 28mm rather than 32mm. I imagine they’d do 25mm for you too.
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Another thought. It might be worth having a look at the Midlam Miniatures website, if you haven’t done so already, as some of the old Metal Magic figures might work for you.
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Thunderbolt Mountain (through Ral Partha Legacy) Arthurians - not historical knights but OK for fantasy RPG. They also have mounted and foot versions of characters.
There is a stockist in UK
https://www.miniature-heroes.co.uk/product_brand/thunderbolt-mountain/
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Have you considered 3D prints? I’ve bought some nice Vae Victis stuff from Etsy printed at 28mm rather than 32mm. I imagine they’d do 25mm for you too.
I hadn't! That's a good suggestion - thanks! I'll have a look and see what's out there. My preference is probably for cheap and cheerful old-school metal miniatures, but I'm keeping an open mind (as with the Caesar 1/72 dwarves mentioned above and the Dark Alliance 1/72 elves, which are the same size as Ral Partha elves).
I was trying to double-check the size of Irregular "28s" and found this blog (http://darkages40and25.blogspot.com/2017/10/25-to-heroic-28-figure-comparisons.html), which backs up Inkpaduta's point: that left-hand figure is much smaller than I'd imagined. So I think I might get some of their spearmen (as town guards/hirelings) and perhaps some knights and archers (or other bandit types too). But I'm in no rush and will scrutinise the other options first. Some Irregular figures are a bit rough, but others are really quite nice.
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Thunderbolt Mountain (through Ral Partha Legacy) Arthurians - not historical knights but OK for fantasy RPG. They also have mounted and foot versions of characters.
There is a stockist in UK
https://www.miniature-heroes.co.uk/product_brand/thunderbolt-mountain/
Ah - thanks! Yes, I'd forgotten that those were available here. They're lovely - though a bit pricey. But I might consider one or two for some important NPCs or villains.
Another thought. It might be worth having a look at the Midlam Miniatures website, if you haven’t done so already, as some of the old Metal Magic figures might work for you.
Another good call - thanks! Yes, I have one 80s survivor in the pile of potential PCs, and a few of the orcs and hobgoblins on the painting desk. I'll give the humans another look. My hunch is that most are more towards the slotta-era Citadel ranges in size, but there might be exceptions, like the one I have earmarked for this project (a cleric, I think).
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Those thunderbolt mountain stuff are really nice :-*
Not stumpy anatomy AND cool designs, they would be really great Melnibonians
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If you don't mind hard plastic that you assemble yourself, Zvezda Ring Of Rule Royal Infantry. OOP, I think - I bought mine 10 - 15 years ago. Described as 28mm but they look much smaller to me. (Well, last time I looked. I have them in a box somewhere. ::))
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I would put in another vote for Irregular Miniatures. Old Glory are also small depending what packs you get. I do remember the Agincourt knights definitely being small, although the Archers are beefier and just about pass muster for 28mm.
So of it is small foot knights you want Old Glory would be a good economical option, you could change weapons around and have 30 different for not much more than a quid each
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If you don't mind hard plastic that you assemble yourself, Zvezda Ring Of Rule Royal Infantry. OOP, I think - I bought mine 10 - 15 years ago. Described as 28mm but they look much smaller to me. (Well, last time I looked. I have them in a box somewhere. ::))
Thanks - I had a look at some on eBay, and yes, they would certainly work. Out of production as you say, though, and the eBay prices are a little steep.
I would put in another vote for Irregular Miniatures. Old Glory are also small depending what packs you get. I do remember the Agincourt knights definitely being small, although the Archers are beefier and just about pass muster for 28mm.
So of it is small foot knights you want Old Glory would be a good economical option, you could change weapons around and have 30 different for not much more than a quid each
Yes, I'm increasingly leaning towards Irregular. These guys (from the Irregular website) would make great town guards:
(https://irregularminiatures.co.uk/Images%208/M13.jpg)
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It's worth noting that Irregular re-sculpted their 25/28mm ranges, I think in the early-mid 2000s. Their original ranges were definitely 25mm, but the new ranges are more like modern 28s, so may not be what you are after. I could try and dig out some old and new Irregular figures to give you an idea of size.
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Another good call - thanks! Yes, I have one 80s survivor in the pile of potential PCs, and a few of the orcs and hobgoblins on the painting desk. I'll give the humans another look. My hunch is that most are more towards the slotta-era Citadel ranges in size, but there might be exceptions, like the one I have earmarked for this project (a cleric, I think).
I’m a fan of the old Metal Magic figures dating back to the early ‘90s when they were stocked by my FLGS. They do run rather larger than classic Ral Partha. Here are two Midlam/Metal Magic castings in the center flanked by an old Ral Partha elf and a human rogue. You’d have to decided whether that amount of variation is aesthetically acceptable to you:
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To illustrate the size of the new Irregular figures, attached shows, from L to R:
Ral Partha 25mm swiss halberdier, Irregular Viking, Ral Partha 25mm axeman, Irregular Viking, Citadel WOTR (smaller type). Hope this is useful.
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Foundry would be my suggestion some of the range were the original Bretonians
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Very interesting topic ..some small 25mm are still very useful because, like Ral Partha and Naismith , for example, they can acceptably mixed wit todays plastic 1/72 (Strelets) ..you mentioned that the old Citadel sold by Foundry are small 25mm..do you mean like the above mentioned Ral Partha ? That to say so small to be fielded close to 1/72 plastics?
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Hi italwars. I think the only two foundry (old citadel) ranges that might be close to Ral Parth 25s are some of the Wars of the Roses, and possibly the Wars of Religion. Both of these ranges were sculpted as historical ranges in the early 80s when smaller 25mm was the norm. The crossbowman on the RH side of my photo is from the Wars of the Roses range and is noticeably small and slight compared to modern 28s.
I don't have any of the Wars of Religion, so unfortunately can't confirm the size of them. Also, to confuse matters further, some of the foundry Wars of the Roses range is quite a lot larger/chunkier, so there is variety within the range. I think the original smaller citadel figures are listed here:
https://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Historical_-_War_of_the_Roses_(C26)
And here:
https://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Historical_-_Wars_of_Religion
Citadel also did an extensive 25mm Dark Age range. It's a great shame they're not still available, and I'd love to know where that range went.
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Thanks very much for these comparisons! That certainly rules out the Irregular Vikings, though those are clearly labelled as 'remodelled' on the site, so the stuff from the later Middle Ages should still work.
The Metal Magic figures look to be just within within my range of tolerance for PCs, albeit at the upper end. Conversely, the very old Ral Partha figures (the ones from the late 70s) are at the lower end. Happily, most of the ones I have are female figures, which works fine: sexual dimorphism tends to be somewhat underplayed by designers, I think, both in height and bulk.
itawars: I had originally planned this as a 1/72 project and will still use some 1/72 creatures in it. Dark Alliance 1/72 elves are really 25mm, for example - or perhaps are Tolkien-style 7' elves in that scale. I made the switch to 25mm because I realised I was never going to use the various 25mm adventurer figures I had amassed otherwise - things like the old Grenadier (Julie Guthrie, especially) and RAFM miniature, which were just too big to work well with 1/72.
I'd say that old Citadel/Foundry 25s are a little too big to work with 1/72. I think the Dark Age range that Thew2 mentions might be closer, though they do have quite large heads.
Foundry would be my suggestion some of the range were the original Bretonians
I think those ones (the 'feudals') are a bit bigger than the WotR stuff - proper 28mm. They certainly used to be when they were slottabased Citadel figures. In particular, they have bigger heads and hands. I think the same's true of the older Foundry Vikings, Saxons and Normans, which are quite chunky 28s; the newer Vikings are even chunkier.
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Thanks very much for these comparisons! That certainly rules out the Irregular Vikings, though those are clearly labelled as 'remodelled' on the site, so the stuff from the later Middle Ages should still work.
Hi Hobgoblin. I would definitely check with Irregular before buying, or just get a few samples. I think there is a very good chance the medieval ranges have also been remodelled, possibly so long ago that they took down the notice. It might also be worth checking with Irregular if they still hold their old moulds for the 25mm stuff, as they might still be available on special order.
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Hi Hobgoblin. I would definitely check with Irregular before buying, or just get a few samples. I think there is a very good chance the medieval ranges have also been remodelled, possibly so long ago that they took down the notice. It might also be worth checking with Irregular if they still hold their old moulds for the 25mm stuff, as they might still be available on special order.
Hobgoblin, may i ask, if you do go down the route suggested by Thew could you please post up pictures of the models when you get the samples from Irregular?
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Hi Hobgoblin. I would definitely check with Irregular before buying, or just get a few samples. I think there is a very good chance the medieval ranges have also been remodelled, possibly so long ago that they took down the notice. It might also be worth checking with Irregular if they still hold their old moulds for the 25mm stuff, as they might still be available on special order.
That's a good point - thanks!
Hobgoblin, may i ask, if you do go down the route suggested by Thew could you please post up pictures of the models when you get the samples from Irregular?
Yes, certainly! Scrutinising Irregular's labyrinthine site always throws up fresh temptations: lots of their decidedly weird and oversized 15mm creatures are big enough to make great low-level dungeon monsters, and I'm even wondering whether these 10mm guys might not make perfect 'nuisance' monsters in 25mm:
(https://irregularminiatures.co.uk/Images%208/10mmTFAN48.jpg)
So I'll put in an order for some beasties and add a few knights and 'guardsmen' types from the medieval pages. If they're too big, they can join my Arthurian skirmish project. If not, I'll order some more.
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I'm even wondering whether these 10mm guys might not make perfect 'nuisance' monsters in 25mm:
(https://irregularminiatures.co.uk/Images%208/10mmTFAN48.jpg)
These would be highly amusing in 54mm scale; tiny little armoured pixies riding on rats.
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These would be highly amusing in 54mm scale; tiny little armoured pixies riding on rats.
Yes - an elusive foe but vulnerable to stray boots ...
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Well, Wargames Foundry Medieval ranges (Feudal, HYW and Wars of the Roses; except Dave Andrew's Swiss) are one of the original Citadel ranges and are about 25mm.
Old Glory has a vast range in 25mm.
Eagle Miniatures do a 25mm Medieval range too.
I second the OG option. I have their mounted knights and they are very nice sculpts
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I second the OG option. I have their mounted knights and they are very nice sculpts
They do look good from what I can glean from the various OG sites. What's putting me off for the moment is the large order size (I'm not sure I'll need 30 knights or 30 'guardsmen', for example). But I do plan on having quite large battles as part of the next campaign, and I'm keeping an eye on eBay for samples: there seems to be quite a large turnover in OG stuff.
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I'd say that old Citadel/Foundry 25s are a little too big to work with 1/72. I think the Dark Age range that Thew2 mentions might be closer, though they do have quite large heads.
I think those ones (the 'feudals') are a bit bigger than the WotR stuff - proper 28mm. They certainly used to be when they were slottabased Citadel figures. In particular, they have bigger heads and hands. I think the same's true of the older Foundry Vikings, Saxons and Normans, which are quite chunky 28s; the newer Vikings are even chunkier.
I can take some comparison shots for you, they are certainly much smaller than most ranges.
Another option could be HAT plastic El CID 1/72 are true 1/72 (foot to eye) and could fit your project needs IMHO.
Cheers
Matt
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I can take some comparison shots for you, they are certainly much smaller than most ranges.
That would be great - thanks very much! I'm probably going to pick up some Foundry feudals in the next few months; they look perfect for my Arthurian project. But if they worked for the 25mm project, that would be grand (they're very characterful and look a lot of fun to paint). I suppose it's not impossible that they have shrunk a bit in the process of being remoulded and rebased.
Certainly, the Citadel WotR range used to be a good bit smaller - not so much in height (though a bit) but in bulk (hands, heads, sword blades). I'm using a couple of surviving Citadel (now Foundry) Normans in the Arthurian project, and they're much bigger than the WotR figures - to the extent that a plate-armoured, salleted man-at-arms looked like a slight woman or a mid-teens boy beside them (so he immediately dropped down to the 25mm project).
Another option could be HAT plastic El CID 1/72 are true 1/72 (foot to eye) and could fit your project needs IMHO.
Do you mean the hard-plastic ones (theoretically 28mm, I think, but quite small)? I have a lot of the 1/72 ones for HOTT/DBA; they're great, but they're definitely 1/72 - much smaller all round than the 25s. But I've long been interested in the 28s, if only as conversion fodder. I might pick up a box and see how they look. Thanks!
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Hobgoblin, may i ask, if you do go down the route suggested by Thew could you please post up pictures of the models when you get the samples from Irregular?
I'll try to get some photos up soon, but the Irregular samples arrived, and they'll work just fine for this project. They're on the larger end of the range I'm using, but they're too small for my 28mm Arthurian project - the knights look tiny compared with (for example) the Citadel knights from Attack of the Broo. They're bigger than a couple of tiny (and wonderful) very early (Ral Partha-sized) Citadel knights/adventurers that I got from Galtisant (thanks again!) earlier this week, but fit in much better with those than with Citadel humans of the classic boxed-set era (Attack of the Broo, Goodly Knights of Law, etc.).
The best match for scale is with the Citadel/Foundry War of the Roses stuff. The Irregular guys look exactly the same size as those.
The jump in scale in the Citadel figures is quite marked. The early historicals and very early fantasy stuff seems to be designed to match Ral Partha's very dainty early ranges. The WotR stuff is a middle scale (small 25s? true 28s?), but the boxed-set figures and contemporary adventurers, etc., are much bigger - matching the scale of later slottabased stuff quite comfortably.