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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Aesthete on 21 November 2023, 06:35:11 AM
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The GW marketing department has been putting out a series of previews of the rules of the Old World (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/20/old-world-almanack-fight-the-good-fight-in-the-combat-phase/).
Against my better judgement, I'm beginning to get pretty excited. I've been inspired to dig out my old never-quite-finished High Elf army and even painting it a bit in the hopes of getting some games in at the FLGS when the game drops.
The cynic in my expects new models out of scale with the old sculpts, inevitable rules and errata churn, and of course continual army book power creep and special rules bloat... but at this moment in time I'm just excited.
My hope is to get some initial games in at the FLGS, maybe with my oldest, and then (crossing fingers) establish home games using some sort of initial "Ravagining Hordes" initial set of army lists and ignore future army book releases.
We'll see how it all turns out, of course.
The rules preview seems sensible enough for a WHB based rules set. The biggest things of note from my point of view is that melees seems likely to resolved in one turn due to the various follow up rules. I like the distinghishing between Giving Ground / Falling Back / Breaking and Fleeing. It implies that the movement phase will have some significance, though it'll be interesting to see how it turns out in practice.
Anyone else on the verge of getting pulled back in...?
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Very tempted, especially since my main army was Tomb Kings and my second was Bretonnians.
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It'll certainly be interesting to see what appears.
Can I please just remind everyone to keep comments directly involved about the game, saving more general GW comments for the thread that exists for that purpose. Thank you.
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I keep my expectations down, but it seems to be going the right way. I play WAP, Renaissance and OPR now, but I am slightly excited.
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Not sure about the game itself, but I am looking forward to some of the old figures coming back. However, as noted, that will be very dependent on any size creep.
I wonder if they're keeping the old names or sticking with the new ones (that my mind refuses to remember) ???
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I'm curious to see how nostalgic this will be, with Oldhammer vibes or new GW aesthetics ... given the few releases shown thus far I suspect the latter but I'm hopeful to be proved wrong.
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I think the game will be a typical GW shit-show, but I wouldn't mind seeing some Old World inspired Warcry or Underworlds warbands so I can use them for other games. The style of the previewed models is already vastly different from their old lines.
I think Oldhammer players will be happy about being able to snag some old kits (at newer and more eyer-watering prices), but then...3D print companies already produce beautiful alternatives to the entire Old World range.
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Not sure about the game itself, but I am looking forward to some of the old figures coming back. However, as noted, that will be very dependent on any size creep.
Quote from - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/14/old-world-development-diary-on-bases-and-the-barons-of-bretonnia/
Over the decades, our models have become larger and more dynamic, which means that many units have become difficult to arrange into ranks and files. Players must be able to line their models up without complex planning about which spear has to go where in order to use them in-game. On top of that, we didn’t like that the back ranks were hidden and hard to see.
So now, all 20mm bases have been replaced with 25mm bases. Most (but not all) 25mm and 25×50 bases have been replaced with new-sized bases.
Q: Are the models getting bigger?
A: No, the new models will be in the same scale as the returning range from Warhammer Fantasy Battle. The base size change has come about because some of those ‘90s and ‘00s models became difficult to rank up, and we’re taking the opportunity to fix the problem. It will mean that newer models joining the range can be more dynamically posed, but proportions remain the same.
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Will they then branch out into 30mm bases too? Orcs, for example, got bigger and bulkier and were looming off the 25mm bases and knocking into each other. With all the prancing and leaping models as well, plus the scenic rocks every seems to be diving off, the larger bases would make everything a little easier to work with.
I'm not against size creep per se, so long as it results in better models. Look at Star Wars Legion - those babies are 32-35mm tall and magnificent single-pose plastics.
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I have to admit to being excited about the Old World coming back. I missed out first time around due to poverty and preferring historical games. I admit that I have already purchased some 3d printed models to get started but they take so long to arrive! So yes Games Workshop marketing have me on this one.
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There is no way I would rebase all of my skaven but a few new larger movement trays would solve the frontage issue. Worth reading the rules at least.
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There is no way I would rebase all of my skaven but a few new larger movement trays would solve the frontage issue. Worth reading the rules at least.
Yeah, I'm not rebasing either. Movement trays will have to do.
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Will they then branch out into 30mm bases too? Orcs, for example, got bigger and bulkier and were looming off the 25mm bases and knocking into each other. With all the prancing and leaping models as well, plus the scenic rocks every seems to be diving off, the larger bases would make everything a little easier to work with.
I think that's already been confirmed: 25mm bases for what were on 20s and 30mm bases for what were on 25s.
Scale creep aside, I wonder if there's a notion that this could tempt players away from Kings of War, which, after all, started as a means for people to use Warhammer armies in a better-designed and more streamlined game. If people rebase for the Old World, they're making their armies unusable in KoW. On the other hand, GW has said that there's no need to rebase old armies, as movement trays can be used to change the frontage. But the new base sizes will encourage the new figures' use in the new GW offering rather than competitor games.
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I have already decided to not rebase any of my WHFB minis. Most, of not all units/regiments, have movement trays though, which does leave the option open to introduce new, larger, movement trays.
But I'm holding off on that until I'm sure the effort and investment will be worth it...
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My main hope, perhaps rather cynically, is that this will result in the flooding of used models in the used miniature market with the consequent collapse of prices.
GW prices were always unjustifiable for me when I started 20 years ago; they're going to be even less justifiable now.
SO most definitely I will not be buying any of the new or re-released kits.
If the rules are good though I'm happy to see the game flourish and I could just get base adapters and slotted trays since I'm definitely not rebasing anything
As others have mentioned the real issue is going to be scale creep (already rather visible on the new Bretonnian foot-knights) and I fell like the increase in base size will only exacerbate this (as can also be seen on the previously mentioned foot knight since they're already fully occupying the larger bases).
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Things like the current night goblins are going to look very odd on 25mm squares (I had a few based up that way for Oathmark at one point, and they looked lost on their big bases).
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Things like the current night goblins are going to look very odd on 25mm squares (I had a few based up that way for Oathmark at one point, and they looked lost on their big bases).
Exactly. My largest army is a Night Goblin one. And they're all the Battle of Skull Pass types too.
They're tiny, but fill a 20mm base well enough. However I don't think they'll look as good on 25mm bases; they might come across as slightly lost on 125% larger real estate (which might sort of suit those mushroom munching loonies perhaps? lol)
My other big army is Warriors of Chaos, and they are fine on their 25mm ones, but would not look as intimidating on 30mm bases in my opinion. Especially the Warriors; they're nicely shoulder to shoulder right now, and look quite intimidating like that. Giving them more room on 120% bigger bases would create gaps in the massive (shield)wall of warriors and possibly hope for their opponents.
Same goes for my High Elves (who are not even battle ready at this point ::) ); they look well on 25mm, especially the Spearmen, who also form an intimidating shieldwall (but brighter), but would leave huge gaps when on 30mm.
So movement trays that simply have a wide rim to get to that new frontage would be negotionable, but larger bases? Nope. The aesthetics alone make me not like them. Although the newer, more dynamic sculpts of, for instance, those Chaos Warriors do benefit from larger bases. But mine are all of the menacingly marching variety, so there is not plus side for me in up-basing the lot...
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I think that's already been confirmed: 25mm bases for what were on 20s and 30mm bases for what were on 25s.
Why not, I've been upscaling my clothing since the 80's too. I also based a Runequest Troll on a 30mm base and he looks a good fit.
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I've been reading the articles on the Warhammer Community site and so far I'm still interested. It looks like they're trying to capture the feel of the older Warhammer Fantasy Battle versions.
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Call me naff, but the only thing that could possibly entice me to make the jump from Oldhammer to the Old World is if they somehow re-introduce the 'Lap Around' rule for my Hobgoblin Sneaky Gitz. I always loved that, as it was so characterful (effective? Less so lol ).
It was not in younger versions of WHFB, not in KoW and not in 9th Age, so my hopes are not up, but an old man can dream, right? :D
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I think it would take 'proper' Toughness 4 hobgoblins with Frenzy to tempt me back!
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Fair enough :D
But I was relatively late to the party, so big hat Chaos Dwarfs were my baseline when it comes to Hobgoblins. By then, Frenzy was something I only remember seeing on Witch Elves (or was that Bloodbowl? ::) ).
At any rate; I would like any reason for me to finally get started on painting those silly naughty dwarfs and their allies...
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The Dolgan Raiders scenario (http://solegends.com/citcat198509cjb/citjour85b006-01.htm)was peak hobgoblinry for me! I've got fond memories of a few of us playing it across a bedroom floor.
Curiously, the scenario makes no mention of the hobgoblins' Frenzy rule - though it was there in the second-edition rulebook before being downgraded to some army-standard-dependent thing in third edition (booo!).
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2nd’s a bit niche, but it’s where I started.
Lund or Morrison peak Hobgoblinry, Hobgoblin?
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Are they releasing army lists for all the old armies or just Brettonia and Tomb Kings? I have loads of unassembled skaven.
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2nd’s a bit niche, but it’s where I started.
Me too!
Lund or Morrison peak Hobgoblinry, Hobgoblin?
It's a tough one, but the Morrison hobgoblins ultimately win out: they're some of the best miniatures ever made, I think. I've hoarded loads of them over the years but have hardly painted any as I've yet to settle on a colour scheme. I suspect I end up just varying them like Japanese oni.
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It’s Lund for me as my mate fielded loads of the the buggers in his Orc/Goblin/Ogre horde back in the day.
FWIW, I’m pretty blasé about TOW as I’m an unrepentant leadhead who skipped off the GW merry-go-round years ago. Being quite happy to play old editions and Mordheim with old metal figures, I’ve no plans to hop back on again.
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It’s Lund for me as my mate fielded loads of the the buggers in his Orc/Goblin/Ogre horde back in the day.
They are terrific too - I've been painting up a few as ogres for 15mm.
FWIW, I’m pretty blasé about TOW as I’m an unrepentant leadhead who skipped off the GW merry-go-round years ago. Being quite happy to play old editions and Mordheim with old metal figures, I’ve no plans to hop back on again.
Yes, I've no reason interest in it. The first time I played Hordes of the Things, I thought (perhaps slightly unkindly), "What was that Warhammer rubbish we were wasting our time over for all those years?". I do think Warhammer was at its best with the second-edition small-scale narrative scenarios: Orc's Drift, MacDeath, Vengeance of the Lichemaster, Dolgan Raiders, etc. For me, the third edition - much as we all thought it awesome at the time - messed things up with competitive games and oh-so-many unwieldy rules.
I am considering, though, running The Redwake River Valley from the first edition (probably using Mordheim rules if I get the project going).
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Lund or Morrison peak Hobgoblinry, Hobgoblin?
Although he didn't sculpt as many, I think Jes Goodwin deserves an honourable mention when discussing Oldhammer hobgoblins. Throg's Despoilers remain my favourite Regiment of Renown.
(Here's all three sculptors side-by-side, painted during lockdown).
(https://i.imgur.com/kLL6c2u.jpg)
Back on topic; I discovered WHFB at the very tail end of 2nd ed. via White Dwarf, and 3rd ed. was the first wargame I ever bought or played (albeit with carboard squares). While I am nostalgic for the Old World, I can't see myself bothering with a new WHFB. IGO-UGO seems a bit old hat and, despite the rose-tinted glasses, I remember that the system could be quite stodgy.
That said, my buddy who plays 9th Age is dead excited. I guess he's really the target audience?
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Are they releasing army lists for all the old armies or just Brettonia and Tomb Kings? I have loads of unassembled skaven.
The details are here - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/
Sadly they do address the lack of Skaven in Old World - "During the century before the Siege of Praag, the Skaven Under-Empire was riven by civil war to the extent that they retreated from the surface world. This is the origin of the belief that Skaven aren’t real – they vanished for several generations and became folklore. The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world."
Though they also say "These legacy faction army lists will be made available for free as pdfs as a service to fans who have these classic armies on their shelf, so they can still bring them to battle for old times sake."
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Although he didn't sculpt as many, I think Jes Goodwin deserves an honourable mention when discussing Oldhammer hobgoblins. Throg's Despoilers remain my favourite Regiment of Renown.
He does though they’re quite different to the others with their D&D roots. They’d make decent Half Orcs, I reckon. Nice daubing, BTW.
I do think Warhammer was at its best with the second-edition small-scale narrative scenarios: Orc's Drift, MacDeath, Vengeance of the Lichemaster, Dolgan Raiders, etc.
You’ll get no argument from me on that.
Redwake River Valley’s a new one on me. First was a bit before my time. I’ll have to do some research.
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I only discovered fantasy a couple years ago when I grabbed some books of eBay for the Ian Miller art. Very interested to see what direction G-dubs takes this :)
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I'm really interested in this.
Me and my mate Steve went to the very first citadel open day in Newark, (1983/4ish?)
They had the 1st edition boxset and were demoing games
we were dyed in the wool D&D players and we sagely turned to each other and said 'this mass combat thing will never catch on'
We actually played 1st edition to 4th edition, then played loads of 6th.
Over the last few years I've been rebuilding and adding to my 3rd edition era armies.
I won't be rebasing, I can't see it will matter as long both sides are consistent anyway (plus, you know, who gives a shit)
It Would be nice to get them back on the table. (yes I'm aware I could use an old ruleset but the new ones 'should' be a well polished machine to play :D)
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I wonder at the cover art, it would set the tone for what's ahead.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/79139b3cb8f7020a900032111f3f76f2/tumblr_pnuaesS1yn1wb3uelo1_1280.jpg)
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Although he didn't sculpt as many, I think Jes Goodwin deserves an honourable mention when discussing Oldhammer hobgoblins. Throg's Despoilers remain my favourite Regiment of Renown.
(Here's all three sculptors side-by-side, painted during lockdown).
(https://i.imgur.com/kLL6c2u.jpg)
Brilliant paintjobs - and they all look surprisingly congruent (though that boxed-set hobgoblin is slightly atypical for Aly's output, which helps here)!
I agree on Jez Goodwin - and his hobgoblins form a sort of continuum with his Asgard orcs, Citadel Uruk-hai (both small and large) and his Citadel ogres (again in two sizes). So you could get an entire Goodwin range of 'giant-class'/goblinoid monsters from the tiny Asgard slave orcs to hulking C23 ogres.
Back on topic; I discovered WHFB at the very tail end of 2nd ed. via White Dwarf, and 3rd ed. was the first wargame I ever bought or played (albeit with carboard squares). While I am nostalgic for the Old World, I can't see myself bothering with a new WHFB. IGO-UGO seems a bit old hat and, despite the rose-tinted glasses, I remember that the system could be quite stodgy.
That said, my buddy who plays 9th Age is dead excited. I guess he's really the target audience?
Yes, 3rd was pretty stodgy. My main memory of it was that weekend games were never, ever finished - and often spanned only two or three turns!
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I wonder at the cover art, it would set the tone for what's ahead.
(https://64.media.tumblr.com/79139b3cb8f7020a900032111f3f76f2/tumblr_pnuaesS1yn1wb3uelo1_1280.jpg)
Is that new art for the new book? If so, it's got an incredibly old-school vibe.
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No, it’s the cover of the Warhammer 2nd edition Terror of the Lichemaster scenario booklet.
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Me and my mate Steve went to the very first citadel open day in Newark, (1983/4ish?)
They had the 1st edition boxset and were demoing games
we were dyed in the wool D&D players and we sagely turned to each other and said 'this mass combat thing will never catch on'
Are you and/or Steve still big D&D players?
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Haven't played D&D for about 35 years unfortunately.
We got bitten hard by the Rogue trader and WFB bug, never looked back.
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There is some art on display in the most recent update - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/27/old-world-almanack-get-in-the-right-headspace-for-morale-and-psychology/
(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/teOVG9pyNJt0o61n.jpg)
(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/7BwvFNiDkw64pL9t.jpg)
(https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/hOBhRTVRKaAkHPtb.jpg)
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That second piece looks very familiar; might be from an older edition.
But they do all convey the Old World vibe, including the rather wooden first piece. Having to include two full armies in one overview shot makes it awefully 'posey' in my opinion. But that has always been part of the charm of the box-art since the first one came out (WHFB 4th?) :)
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It does make sense some 'foreign' armies are excluded for now. That way they will introduce them in the future combined with some mega-event and worldwide campaign.
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It would be cool to finally see fully realized armies for Cathay and/or Araby. But I won't be holding my breath... ::)
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Honestly? I do still prefer the old art- nothing beats a bit of Miller or Blanche for me. The troop design do look spot on though, glad that they haven’t hammed it up so much, and very excited to see the full range once it comes out! :-*
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Yeah, it would be nice if the troops are fairly generic - plain even - historical looking types with a bit of the old Warhammer twist, leaving the over-the-top SKULLLZZZZ!!! approach for rarer choices.
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That second piece looks very familiar; might be from an older edition.
But they do all convey the Old World vibe, including the rather wooden first piece. Having to include two full armies in one overview shot makes it awefully 'posey' in my opinion. But that has always been part of the charm of the box-art since the first one came out (WHFB 4th?) :)
They're *all* old pieces from previous editions.
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That's actually something I noticed too.
Getting a new army book was always a bit of a disappointment with 90% of its art content being recycled art rather than something new.
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It would be cool to finally see fully realized armies for Cathay and/or Araby. But I won't be holding my breath... ::)
Haha, me neither. If we get them, I think they'll be a lot like guilds in Necromunda: a unit or two that can ally with various main factions. There was very similar intriguing-but-vague talk about how eventually the setting would be fleshed out as never before when Necromunda was redone.
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Haha, me neither. If we get them, I think they'll be a lot like guilds in Necromunda: a unit or two that can ally with various main factions. There was very similar intriguing-but-vague talk about how eventually the setting would be fleshed out as never before when Necromunda was redone.
You know, it's not completely unreasonable that they'd follow that playbook when it comes to new factions in TOW (or to reintroducing older factions, for that matter).
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That second piece looks very familiar; might be from an older edition.
I think it was originally a boxart for the Chaos Warriors set