Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Conflicts that came in from the Cold => Topic started by: Evil Dave on December 09, 2023, 02:12:53 PM
-
I'd like to put together a couple of companies in 6mm to use with various games. How do these look with regards to contents? Is there anything I'm missing? Anything I should add that might find itself on the same table as these during a game (AA, artillery, helicopters, etc)?
I'll likely do two of each, one 84ish and another late-85ish to get some more variety in there.
Mech CHQ
2 M113/M2
3 Mech Platoons
4 M113/M2
1 Platoon HQ squad
3 Infantry squadd
1 Mech Weapons Platoon (only with the M113)
2 M901
Armored CHQ
2 M1/M1IP
1 M113
1 M577
3 Armored Platoons
4 M1/M1IP
For the infantry I likely do stands of 6 with 2 M203s, 1 M60, 1 Dragon and 2 M16s.
-
As far as the tank company goes, it would have been M1/M1IP/M60A3 until about mid- to late '86, at which time the M1A1 started to be fielded. So for either of your tank companies, NO M1A1s. The tank company also had an M577 (which the XO often operated out of) and the 1SG had an M113.
For the infantry, Mech platoons did not have rifle squads in the company HQ. And the rifle platoons only had 3 rifle squads, although the M113 platoon did have a weapons squad (w/M60 teams). The Bradley company HQ did have 2 M2s/M113s. But for either company, the XO was usually in the TOC's M577, and the 1SG operated out of an M113. The XOs M2/M113 usually provided TOC security. In '84 it would have been all M113s, while in '85, there would indeed have been some M2 units.
FYI, I was a tank platoon leader in 2-64 Armor/3rd ID in Germany from '84 through '87, if that helps...
-
Thanks for your help Jim, I changed the post above.
-
Glad to help! Also, Mech Companies had 2 M125 mortar carriers, until about '85/'86 or so. And this may be of interest to you... https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwus.pdf
-
Thanks, I had stumbled upon that but I wasn't sure if I was looking at something where numbers were adjusted for in-game ratios, or if it just had typos.
I couldn't reconcile how a mechanized infantry company had 9 infantry and 7 M113s (from the right side of page 25) based on everything else I was reading.
-
I saw that. That must have been a typo.
-
How did the battalion assets get allocated? Both the armored and mechanized battalions had a battery of 6 M106s and a recce/scout platoon of 6 M3s. Did these operate together at those numbers? Or get split up and allocated to teams?
And same question for the divisional assets, I guess. What about the armored cav squadrons, artillery, anti-air, SAMs, AHs, etc?
-
I'd be happy to answer that. It'll be a longish post, but I won't be able to get to it until later this evening or maybe tomorrow...of course, others might chime in as well.
-
Thanks again Jim, whenever you have time.
-
Jim is quite right. The mechanised platoon did not have a weapons squad, unlike light infantry. Instead there was a weapons pool held at platoon level of 3 X M47 Dragons and 2 X M60 machineguns. Bear in mind that if you want to stage your troops out of Berlin, they are organised as light infantry, with pooled M113s (basically a company's worth per battalion).
Here's the relevant field manual for the M113 platoon under the H series TO&E that was in still in effect in the early 1980s:
https://archive.org/details/fm7777mechinf/page/n3/mode/2up
In 1985 two dismounts were dropped per squad and minor changes were made to the PHQ.
Here's field manual covering the mech platoon in m113 for the J series TO&E, introduced in 1985.
https://www.bits.de/NRANEU/others/amd-us-archive/FM7-7%2885%29.pdf
If you don't fancy skimming through the FMs yourself, then this video has a fair summary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJZkId18ao4
Just a minor point but the first Bradley battalions deployed from the US to Europe for Reforger exercises in 1983, so if you really fancy you could field them. The Bradley org is a complex one but again that video has a decent summary. Not sure what the official position was pre the 1986 FM but I suspect that just codified what was being done already.
Of course Bradley platoons didn't always fare so well tactically on exercise. Fast forward to 6.01 of this little cracker:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMmT3jQqEoo&list=PLXfy-6JidhovxfrS3F4wY7-5f0KhoSbOb&index=6
;)
-
Good info, Carlos! The funny thing about M2 platoons was the 9-man squads. Which in and of itself is OK, but the M2 was only designed to hold 7 dismounts....
As far battalion assets, as you mention, each heavy battalion had a platoon of 6 M106 mortar carriers, carrying 106mm (4.2") mortars. We called 'em 4-duece mortars. They typically deployed together a few clicks back from the FEBA (Army for front line). While they were trained to fire section (2 tubes) missions, they usually fired platoon missions. They were not directly attached to line companies. However, the battalion commander would assign the mortar platoon as direct support to one of the line companies, depending on the tactical situation. Essentially, that line company would have priority of fires (first dibs) on the mortar platoon's fire missions. The other companies would then have indirect support, and could get fire support from the mortars as they were available. Platoon Leaders could call for fire, and their calls for fire would be channeled through their company commander then up to battalion. Battalion mortars are best represented by off-board artillery. Their availability should not be automatic (even in the '80s, radios could be a bit wonky), but should be fairly easy for the a company with the mortars in direct support. A bit harder for companies with them in indirect support.
Battalion scout platoons were different for M113 battalions and M2 battalions. Scout platoons in M113 battalions had 3 M113s and 3 M901 ITVs, paired into 3 sections. The M113s would each have up to 4 dismounted scouts, depending on manpower levels. M2 battalions would have 6 M3 Bradleys, and each would have 3 dismount scouts. These too would be paired into 3 sections. Tank battalions' scout platoons' composition would depend on the infantry carriers their sister mech battalions had. The scouts too were not directly attached to line companies. They would generally be a few clicks out in front of the battalion, or perhaps on its flank, screening the battalion. Mission-wise, we had the 3 F's - Find 'em, Fix 'em, and F*** 'em up. The scouts' job was to find 'em (the enemy), and maybe fix 'em, again depending on the tactical situation. The line companies would take care of the fixing and f***ing up.
One thing to keep in mind was that the Army had the Task Force and Team doctrine in place then. Within a Brigade, a tank battalion and a mech battalion would swap companies. This would result in a tank battalion with 3 tank companies and a mech company, and a mech battalion with 3 mech companies and a tank company. These were referred to as Battalion Task Forces. And within those Task Forces, the Task Force commander would swap platoons between a tank company and a mech company. This would result in a tank company with 2 tank platoons and a mech platoon, and a mech company with 2 mech platoons and a tank platoon. These were referred to as Company Teams. Team Yankee from Harold Coyle's book of the same title is an example of a Tank Company Team.
Another thing to keep in mind at the company level is the presence of supporting vehicles from battalion and divisional assets. Examples would include an FSO's M113 from the divisional artillery FDC, a medical M113 from the battalion medical platoon, an M163 Vulcan from the division ADA battalion, and the company's maintenance team from the battalion maintenance platoon (an M113 and/or 2-1/2 ton truck, and an M88 recovery vehicle).
Brigades subordinate to Divisions didn't have any real assets to discuss here. I'll discuss divisional-level assets in more detail in my next post.
I hope this helps so far...
-
Carlos and CapnJim have a wealth of knowledge and are very good at expressing it.
I can not think of anything to add to what they have said and I served in US Mech Infantry units from 1988 to 2000. I have to admit I am particularly envious of Carlos' breadth of knowledge and CapnJimâs memory of specific US military information, both of which far surpasses mine. Too much alcohol and blows to the head over the years I suspect.
Both continue to impress me with their knowledge and willingness to share with folks on here. I hope folks appreciate just how excellent a source of information they are.
-
It's all fresh to mind. I've just finished basing my 1984 US Berlin Brigade infantry platoon. Save for a touch of matte varnish, an extra M67 gunner to round out the weapons squad and an M60 tank that I ordered during the Black Friday sales, it's good as done.*
* I say that knowing that with hobbies nothing is ever really finished. I want to paint a few more MP's, do some of the Germans in the evocatively titled 6941st Guard Battalion and one day do a CEV, if I can find one in the right scale. Then I can get around to blowing up the Starlight Club and Turner Barracks. :D
-
Thanks, I had stumbled upon that but I wasn't sure if I was looking at something where numbers were adjusted for in-game ratios, or if it just had typos.
I couldn't reconcile how a mechanized infantry company had 9 infantry and 7 M113s (from the right side of page 25) based on everything else I was reading.
It's adjusted for the game ratios. Basically 2:1 or 3:1 per vehicle or heavy weapon. So a company with 7 model vehicles is 3x platoons of 2 and an HQ of 1.
-
A really useful thread - have learnt a lot from this :)
-
Seeing as this thread seems to be good for people who were there/have researched recently - in terms of kit (28mm) would the Empress Vietnam miniatures work for US troops in Europe in the mid-late 70's/early 80's? Obviously missing a few things like TOW launchers but I'm sure I can come up with something. Just thinking about the 1st Corps soviets I've seen muttered about in a few places and wondering if I already have a period-suitable US force to oppose them...?
-
Seeing as this thread seems to be good for people who were there/have researched recently - in terms of kit (28mm) would the Empress Vietnam miniatures work for US troops in Europe in the mid-late 70's/early 80's? Obviously missing a few things like TOW launchers but I'm sure I can come up with something. Just thinking about the 1st Corps soviets I've seen muttered about in a few places and wondering if I already have a period-suitable US force to oppose them...?
Unfortunately, not really. The helmets and web gear work, but not the uniform. The standard US Army uniform in the 70s and early 80s (pre-BDUs) was this:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/61/16550-111223151955.png)
The uniform depicted by the Empress Minis (which are very lovely minis, by the way) is jungle fatigues, such as this:
(http://leadadventureforum.com/gallery/61/16550-111223151926.png)
One note I will make is that they might work for units that transitioned to BDUs before they got issued the PASGT (kevlar) helmets. In '82 nd '83 you could find units that had BDUs (a similar but not identical cut to jungle fatigues) and M1 helmets (with either leaf or woodland camo cover), but it was usually Army National Guard or Army Reserve units. BUT, figures should have their shirts on, and no M79s - grenadiers would have had M203s.
As for Evil Dave's original question, here goes with the Heavy Division assets.
Divisional Cavalry Squadron
This one saw the biggest organizational (and mission) change in the transition from the "H" series TO&E to the "J" series in the mid 80s. Prior to the transition, the Div Armd Cav Sqdn had 3 armored cavalry troops and 1 air cavalry troop. The armored cav troops had 3 platoons each of 3 M113s (2 with 4-5 dismount scouts, 2 M125 or M901 TOW vehicles, and 4 tanks (usually M60s). The air cav troop had both scout and attack helicopters (usually paired into teams). Their missions included reconnaissance, screening, economy of force, and direct engagement.
In the mid 80s (roughly corresponding to when heavy divisions or separate brigades received Bradley IFVs/CFVs), this changed. It changed from an armored cavalry squadron to a cavalry squadron, with 2 cavalry troops and 2 air troops. The cavalry troops had 3 platoons of 6 M3s each, with 2 M3s at the troop HQ. Each M3 in the platoons had 3 dismount scouts. The air troops had 1 each of an aeroscout platoon, aeroweapons platoon, and aerorecon platoon. The OH58s and AH1s/AH64s in the aeroscout and aeroweapons usually paired up, while the OH58s in the aerorecon platoon performed recon and screening missions. This cav squadron's missions were restricted to screening and recon, as the economy of force and direct engagement missions were dropped (those were left to the Corps' Armored Cavalry Regiment).
Maneuver battalions would never see units from the Div Cav directly attached to them. They were usually deployed out in front of the Division, or on its flanks. Maneuver units could see them doing an passage of lines forward as they deploy out to their screening positions. They could also see them as they conduct a passage of lines rearward, after they've found the enemy...
Divisional Artillery
The Divisional Artillery Battalion was similar in both TO&Es ("H" and "J"). 3 batteries of 155mm howitzers (various models of the M109), and a battery of 8" howitzers (M110s). Similarly to the battalion mortars, the Division Commander would assign priorities of fires to his subordinate brigades, who would re-assign it to their battalions, and so on down the line, depending on the tactical situation. As with the mortars, these would be several clicks back from the FEBA, so would best be represented by off-board artillery. A single maneuver company would rarely see more than one battery of DivArty in direct support, but it was possible. Again, it shouldn't be automatic, but arty in direct support should be relatively easy to get.
Air Defense Artillery
Each heavy division had an ADA battalion. I don't recall their exact TO&E, but they had M163 Vulcans (M113-mounted 20mm mini-guns) and tracked M48 Chapparal missile launchers (based on the Sidewinder). These could be task-assigned out to brigades and battalions, so a tank/mech company might actually have one around (particularly the M163s). In addition, mech companies could have Redeye or Stinger MANPADS teams attached to them from the ADA battalion (they would be in M151 jeeps, ,or maybe Humvees, depending on when in '85).
Aviation
Another big change in the switch in TO&Es. This went from an aviation battalion to an aviation brigade. Plus, while the Divisional Armored Cavalry Squadron in the H Series TO&E was a direct report to the Division Commander, the Division Cavalry Squadron in the J Series technically was a direct report to the Aviation Brigade Commander. In real life, though, the Division commander usually retained operational control over the Div Can Sqdn.
Both TO&Es had a mix of transport and attack helicopters. but the J Series had more. In both TO&Es, the AH1 and/or AH64 attack helos worked in teams with the OH58s. Support of the maneuver units worked in a similar fashion to mortars and artillery. The Division Commander would assign priority of support to the maneuver brigades, and so on. However, sometimes the aviation units had their own separate missions, so aviation support was not always available. As with arty, access to AHs flying in support should not be automatic. Those in direct support should be relatively easy to access, those in indirect support, less so.
Divisional Engineer Battalion
I don't recall the TO&Es for these, but they had squads in 5-ton dump trucks and M728 CEVs. They performed usual combat engineer missions (mine installation and removal, demolition, obstacle construction, etc). They usually did their own thing, but it's very well possible that they could be operating in the same battlespace as the maneuver units. They likely wouldn't be directly attached, but could be performing engineer mission in support of the maneuver unit.
I hope this helps. Holler of you have any other questions. I'll do my best to answer them.
And thank you for your kind words, Mr. Gnome... :)
-
Re the uniform? As usual Jim is spot on. OG 107 was the standard working uniform issued between the end of the Vietnam War and around 1982/83 when BDUs started to be issued.
There were some exceptions, SF, the 82nd Airborne and Rangers and other elements of the Rapid Deployment Forces had access to the RDF ERDL uniform which was based on the Vietnam era tropical fatigues but with straight breast pockets rather than the slanted ones. Period photos actually show a bit of mix with some of the Vietnam era brown dominant ERDL uniforms being mixed in. As the pockets are mostly covered by webbing and are largely undistinguishable under the camo pattern camo at any distance you could get away with Vietnam era troops for the 82nd or Rangers except that.............
ALICE personal equipment largely replaced the M1956/ M1967 in the mid to late 1970s, although stocks of the older gear occasionally soldiered on.* Again you can proxy it by shaving off the bottom of the rear H straps at the rear and adding a single strap. You will also want to add the rather distinctive plastic entrenching tool cover and make a gas mask carrier out of green stuff. It's rare to see field equipped US infantry for the period not wearing the gas mask carrier. It's not present on the Empress or Gringo 40 models as it wasn't typically worn in Vietnam.
Weapons wise, it's M16A1s until the mid/late 1980s but with 30 round vice the old 20 round magazines. M203s as the grenade launcher and the M60 soldiers on throughout the period.
The late 1970s and early 1980s saw the US Army focussed on the 'Army of Excellence', which whilst it saw organisational, equipment and doctrinal change across the US Army had a very particular focus on Light Infantry and rapidly deployable forces. As an aside there's a slightly dry but none the less fascinating monograph on the subject available on the TRADOC website. Essentially the US realised a need to react on a global scale and this was heightened after the 1979 Iranian revolution.
Much of the new kit that came in the 1980s went to light formations first. In this way you'll see the 82nd Airborne in full PASGT gear, helmet and body armour in the 1983 invasion of Grenada. When the M249 SAW came in to service it went to Airborne and Light Infantry Divisions first. It took a while even there as there were considerable production delays and the need for retrofits to the early guns.
This meant that a lot of older kit soldiered on in Europe and also in CONUS with mechanised formations. To this end it's possible to see troops in BDUs with M1 tin pots right into the mid 1980s.
So, if you were prepared to be fairly specific and perhaps squint a bit you could use Vietnam era for some troops in the late 1970s (Airborne, RDF) and the early 1980s (some Mech formations in BDUs and tin pots through to about 1985/6 and of course National Guard).
Personally I'd go with the Under Fire Miniatures range for that, in fact that's just what I have done. Uniforms and equipment are correct, the difference between RDF ERDL and BDU's is fairly minor and mostly paint related. They are , somewhat strangely carrying M16A2s but even that goof can be remedied with a dab of white glue to the forestocks and some paint to hide the ribbing.
I have used some Vietnam figures to round out my early 1980s era US Army platoon but I went with the Rubicon Vietnam figures and some alternative arms, plus a couple of slightly modified Gringo 40 figures. The plastic Rubicon figures are much easier to convert as you add the webbing individually to each figure yourself and plastic is much easier to slice with a hobby knife.
Sorry, somewhat long-winded answer.
* Bits of the older gear seem to have been popular in the field. The butt pack was a common addition from older gear. God knows why. The Australian Army had the same God awful arse beating bit of kit and many sensible chaps, me included, dispensed with it in favour of old Bren pouches which didn't bounce all over the shop when you ran and held about the same amount of kit as you would actually use in the bum bag.
-
Good point about the always present thigh hugging protective mask carrier. I hated that thing.
However I liked the old butt pack. I did not find it flapped around much when secured properly. I used it mainly to carry my poncho liner and field stripped MREs.
-
MREs? Lucky sods. Save for the occasional dehydrated packs (uncommon due to water consumption) everything we got in 24 hour ration packs was tinned, like the old US C rations, so it weighed a lot in addition to tasting like shit. My wife stunned me the other day when she brought home a tin of 'off brand' spam and demanded a misto quente, a toasted cheese sandwich, with this shit added. The sight and smell brought back all the ugly memories of 'luncheon meat Type 2'. About 85% grease. Type 1 was the exactly same but in a mercifully smaller tin IIRC. The dog eats better. :'(
Wife has learned her lesson though. lol
-
MREs? Lucky sods. Save for the occasional dehydrated packs (uncommon due to water consumption) everything we got in 24 hour ration packs was tinned, like the old US C rations, so it weighed a lot in addition to tasting like shit. My wife stunned me the other day when she brought home a tin of 'off brand' spam and demanded a misto quente, a toasted cheese sandwich, with this shit added. The sight and smell brought back all the ugly memories of 'luncheon meat Type 2'. About 85% grease. Type 1 was the exactly same but in a mercifully smaller tin IIRC. The dog eats better. :'(
Wife has learned her lesson though. lol
I never tried Australian rations but I have had German, French, Italian and British back in the day. I preferred MREs. But for some reason I recall them tasting better back then than the ones I tried a couple of years back with Mrs. GG. Neither of us were too impressed. Fancier sounding menu items but barring a few exceptions tasted worse. I need to try some of the contemporary German ones at some point if I can get my hands on them.
-
Thanks to Carlos and CapnJim.
I hadn't appreciated the uniforms were so different! Maybe I need to look for a different hypothetical (no matter how seemingly bizarre lol). Interesting stuff though.