Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: Chambique on December 22, 2023, 03:26:32 AM
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What's up LAF, new guy here.
I'm dusting off an old Magyar Fields of Glory army to paint that I'd like to get back on the table. It seems FoG doesn't have much of a following so I'm trying to find them a home in a new system.
Are there other systems that have lists for the Magyar or do you see some alternatives these guys could play as? I'm considering other ancient systems like Le art de la guerre, clash of spears and such or going with a fantasy system like Fantastic Battles.
Based on 40mm x 30mm
24x stands of light cavalry, 2 figures per stand
12x stands of heavy cavalry, 3 figures per stand
I've got some figs and a tent to build a camp still but haven't based that.
What would you suggest?
Thanks for the thoughts on this I'll be trying to buckle down and paint all these horses over the winter.
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Well, I would suggest my personal favourite "To the Strongest" by Simon Miller ( other rule sets are available!). He has two books or army lists being "ancient" and "medieval", with the Magyars being in the latter. If you don't know them they are grid based, and use chits for activation. This of course means you need to have/make/acquire a gridded mat plus buy or make some chits. They really are "figure numbers/base size agnostic" just so long as you can fit two units in a grid units and you know what they are. Looking at the Magyar list I would use two of your bases per Magyar unit, and with the addition of a few Slav infantry bases you would have the makings of a decent army. The rules are available hard copy from BigRedBat or as a PdF from Wargames Vault. The latter has them on sale for $12.74 so currently quite a bargain.
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Nice army! I sadly can not suggest a proper ruleset, Magyar/Hungarian light cavalry tactics are hard to catch as there are a very few rulesets which capture its two essential weaknesses: the shortage of arrows which meant deadly shooting on one hand but not being able to avoid close combat forever, and the necessity of the open terrain for the vigorous maneuvering.
As the settling and forming of a feudal kingdom did not change the tactics overnight, you can stick some appropriately painted knights to them and have a Kingdom of Hungary army up to the 13th century.
and with the addition of a few Slav infantry bases you would have the makings of a decent army
...but do not add infantry. Magyars, nomadic or feudal, were an almost exclusively cavalry army, the chronicles never mention any infantry. Some camp guards maybe, who were counted towards the camp crew rather than the warriors.
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Freddy, I won't argue with you but I think the small infantry component is meant to represent "Slav subjects" post circa 890AD. I'm only looking at the list!
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A second vote for “To the Strongest”. Light cavalry tactics are well reproduced, and there is now the option to combine small light cavalry units if you want which means they can’t evade but can stand up to combat better.
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Freddy, I won't argue with you but I think the small infantry component is meant to represent "Slav subjects" post circa 890AD. I'm only looking at the list!
I see, but the list is wrong then, in the Hungarian army there were no Slav subjects used as infantry. Military stuff was a topic for the tribal leaders and their retinue, even if their subjects were Slavs, they did not drag them to the battlefield to act as a ballast to bring down the main advantage of the nomadic cavalry army: speed. (Not just in the battlefield, but on strategical level). Also in the nomadic Magyar society even the commoner women rode horses, they most likely did not even bother to look towards someone horselessly poor :) I personally think that the Árpád-era infantry (camp guards and some crossbowmen) were also cvalrymen, but acting dismounted.
Infantry in a nomadic cavalry army only appeared as allies or auxiliaries, like the Goths for the Huns, but Magyars/Hungarians were not allied with Slavic states. Hungarian contingents sometimes fought as mercenaries for Byzantine or German states in the 10th century, but even in that cases, they mostly operated on their own, being hired for stuff the client was unable to perform on its own: long-distance cavalry raids.
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OK, I stand corrected.
Thanks.
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I think you could happily use Magyars with Shattered Lances. Someone recently uploaded a link here enabling a free download of the rules.
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Thank you all,
Sweet, I'll check out To the Strongest (wargamevault) and Shattered Lances (https://adcgaming.wordpress.com/shattered-lances/)
Appreciate the suggestions guys it will be cool to game with them after they've been in storage for 8+ years.
I also saw the thought about adding knights to make it a Kingdom of Hungary army up to the 13th century. Which systems would game that era well with multi based 15mm?
After reviewing the two above I'll lean into one to give it a try before the other. Always cool to find more systems minis can fit into without anything crazy like rebasing.
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Chambique, TTS covers all ancient and medieval, from Sumerians through to Wars of the Roses. I think "Shattered Lances" ( of which I've heard good things....) are more "period specific" to the 11-12th century Crusades, but as pointed out the style of warfare is similar to Magyars and Eastern Europe. As such TTS is quite generic but I have used them from Hittites vs Sea Peoples through to Late Medieval and find they play well with all periods. As well as the rules Wargames Vault is selling off the TTS Medieval Army list book for $12.74. This is a 200+ page, colour illustrated book with 150 lists and well worth the money. I normally buy hard-copy rules but am happy with a PdF of the lists as I can read the list I want on my PC and/or easily print-off the 1-2 page list I need for any particular game.
The only thought about TTS is that they have been out for about 6 years and the Author releases small updates called "Even stronger" which are available for free from his website. This captures feedback from gamers and Simon's own ideas. It is strongly rumoured that a v2 of the rules might be released Spring next year.
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Good looking out SJWi, I grabbed the army list book as well to see what can play opposing the Magyar. To the Strongest v1 is a good start for these guys. I may look at playing shattered lances too though. TTS is not as crunchy as I would typically like but it looks pretty fun to play.
I can appreciate the grid movement as a change of pace.
I also stumbled on Sword and Spear, maybe there's a way to build the Magyar as a list for that too. https://onmilitarymatters.com/product/1-210190
Now to choose another medieval balkans TTS force to face the horse swarm. Who do you think would give them a run for their money?
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Chambique, I don't know if they will give them a run for their money but I think historical opponents would be Thematic or Nikephorian Byzantine, or Carolingian or Eastern Frankish. These armies have more infantry to would offer a different tactical challenge. Westwind have some nice figures for these armies in their Forged in Battle Dark age range.
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Chambique, I don't know if they will give them a run for their money but I think historical opponents would be Thematic or Nikephorian Byzantine, or Carolingian or Eastern Frankish. These armies have more infantry to would offer a different tactical challenge. Westwind have some nice figures for these armies in their Forged in Battle Dark age range.
Also the early years of the Holy Roman Empire, Bulgarians, and other nomads (Pechenegs for example). The adventuring* Hungarians even reached Spain and Southern Italy in the 10th century.
*in Hungarian history the era between the settling of 896 and the coronation of Saint Stephen in 1000 is called the ,,kalandozások"- "adventuring" era. A serious euphemism describing the cavalry raids they lead on their own or as mercenaries into Europe and the Balkans. Europe was very fragmented in this period, and Byzantine Empire also had seen better days, so a cavalry raid could go very far without meeting any serious resistance.) Check this map:
(https://nat2012.nkp.hu/tankonyv/tortenelem_9/img/1762.png)
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You might also look at Mortem et Gloriam. I think it's a lot of fun. It has some similarities to FoG, but there is a command system.
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... I'm considering other ancient systems like Le art de la guerre,...
That little lot in ADLG gets you most of the ways towards making two armies to be honest - you could fairly easily do the meat of a matched pair of some of the armies in the various "East European" sections of the army lists at the back of the rules.
In those sections you've got lists for Avar, Bulgar, Khazar, Magyar and Pecheneg lists in the Dark Ages, and you're pretty close to Feudal Hungarian, Georgian, and certainly Cuman in the Feudal section, then (at a pinch) Lithuanian, Medieval Hungarian, Second Bulgarian Empire, Vlach & Moldavian in Late Medieval. All of those would use a core of these types of cavalry + LH and look similar enough for most people to not raise an eyebrow I suspect.
The mix of LH/Cv is however a bit (OK, "a lot") LH-heavy for playing ADLG, as it's rare to see an army field more than half a dozen or so bases of LH out of their 20-odd bases - so while you could make a case to keep a few more than that and paint a handful up differently to turn them out as "Elite" Szecklers in a Hungarian, more realistically I think you'd be looking at rebasing some of the LH at 3/base to use them as Medium Cavalry horse archers, and using your more dynamic, tooled-up figures as various types of Heavy Cavalry. You'd also need 3 Commanders per army, which could be a single figure on a 30-40mm round base.
A quick bash at a Magyar army using only these figures would look something like this:
Competent Commander
3 Nobles Heavy Cavalry Bow Elite
2 Horse Archers Medium Cavalry Bow ----------
2 Horse Archers Light Cavalry Bow ----------
Brilliant Commander
2 Nobles Heavy Cavalry Bow Elite
2 Horse Archers Medium Cavalry Bow ----------
2 Horse Archers Light Cavalry Bow ----------
2 Guardsmen Heavy Cavalry Impact Elite
Ordinary Commander, included with Noble Cavalry unit
1 Nobles Heavy Cavalry Bow Elite
4 Horse Archers Light Cavalry Bow ----------
Fortified Camp
Thats 8 LH bases, 6 "Noble" Heavy Cavalry bases, 2 more HCv bases painted to look different and who maybe are a bit more "charge-y" figure-wise, and 4 bases of Medium Cavalry archers, probably made by mushing 6 bases of your 2/base LH into 4 of 3/base unarmoured horse archers - and some Generals. So, you still have 10 LH stands of LH and 4 of "heavy" cavalry left over to start their opponents :-)
Add some Slav spearmen (maybe four 40x30 bases of 7-8 figures), some javelinmen (40x40, 5-6 figures), a couple of bases of archers (40x40, 6 figs) and some skirmishing foot (40x20, 2 bowmen) and you're starting to have all of the options for a lot more of the armies from the region.
Hope that helps..
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I see, but the list is wrong then, in the Hungarian army there were no Slav subjects used as infantry. Military stuff was a topic for the tribal leaders and their retinue, even if their subjects were Slavs, they did not drag them to the battlefield to act as a ballast to bring down the main advantage of the nomadic cavalry army: speed. (Not just in the battlefield, but on strategical level). Also in the nomadic Magyar society even the commoner women rode horses, they most likely did not even bother to look towards someone horselessly poor :) I personally think that the Árpád-era infantry (camp guards and some crossbowmen) were also cvalrymen, but acting dismounted.
Infantry in a nomadic cavalry army only appeared as allies or auxiliaries, like the Goths for the Huns, but Magyars/Hungarians were not allied with Slavic states. Hungarian contingents sometimes fought as mercenaries for Byzantine or German states in the 10th century, but even in that cases, they mostly operated on their own, being hired for stuff the client was unable to perform on its own: long-distance cavalry raids.
Ian Heath (Armies of the Dark Ages), says:
“After their conquest of Hungary Slav and German auxiliaries are also recorded, and Pechenegs were employed after 1051; there were quite probably many Slavs in the army at Lechfield, which would help explain its size”
So that’s where ther Slav infantry come from; they are indeed auxiliaries.
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Ian Heath (Armies of the Dark Ages), says:
“After their conquest of Hungary Slav and German auxiliaries are also recorded, and Pechenegs were employed after 1051; there were quite probably many Slavs in the army at Lechfield, which would help explain its size”
So that’s where ther Slav infantry come from; they are indeed auxiliaries.
Where exactly were they recorded? There is a very rich bibliography about 10th century Hungarian warfare (a dozen of them on my bookshelf too), and it never mentions any auxiliary infantry- knowing the tactics, the society and the general scene, it would be like heavy armoured knights in an early republican Roman army.
The army sizes of the 955 battle at Lechfield (in Hungarian literature: Augsburg) is a debated topic, but the original estimation of 100k Hungarians is pretty sure just a wild exaggeration so common in medieval sources. The real number is more like 10k Hungarians and a slightly smaller German army (who had some Czech contingents too indeed.) The Hungarian army was led by the Hungarian Lords Taksony, Bulcsú, Súr, and Lehel, the latter commanding the auxiliary contingent. But this had no Slav infantry, it was also a horse archer force, mostly of Kabars, employed as a vanguard contingent, which was a common usage of auxiliaries in nomadic steppe nations (also later in the Kingdom of Hungary). Kabars or Kavars were a nation of Turkish origin, they rebelled against the Kazar Empire and their 3 tribes joined the Hungarians before the occupation of Hungary. They settled down in Nyitra, in Northwest Hungary (today belongs to Slovakia), and melted into the Hungarians not long after. During the late 9-10th century they were the usual auxiliaries of the Hungarian armies.
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A quick check of Oman shows no mention of anything other than cavalry in the army at Lechfeld, so not sure where the infantry are attested.