Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Pikes, Muskets and Flouncy Shirts => Topic started by: Friends of General Haig on December 27, 2023, 12:14:48 PM
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I have updated my list of Pike & Shot era wargames rules on my blog here:
https://theviaregia.blogspot.com/p/17th-century-wargames-rules.html
This update introduces 12 sets of rules to the list bringing the total to 67. There is a broad range of rules in this update, including old rules from the 60s and rules released in the last few months. There are rules for smaller skirmish games, as well as big battle games. There are even rules that include magic and demonic creatures! I am continually surprised that the list keeps expanding at the rate it does. Wargamers certainly seem to like rules and I look forward to seeing further sets in the future.
If you know about a set that I haven’t included then please let me know and I will include them in the next update.
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Wow! Impressive list. Thanks for sharing. Maybe you could include a rating as well. I guess at least some of them are rated at boardgamegeek.com ;)
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I’ve tried to post a comment on the blog regarding the availability of two of the rule sets but it was not published. (I couldn’t sign in via Google and have forgotten how I previously logged in - inadvertently - as Jon Snow?, an alias I am not proud of). I’ll therefore post it here instead:
“Gott mit Uns!” can be purchased from the author, Lance Flint, on eBay.
I’ve also occasionally come across “Dutchman, Spaniard, Switzer, Swede” on eBay but don’t recall the seller. Noble Knight seems the likeliest possibility.
“Renatio et Gloriam” will be published in a print edition by Helion next year, along with a book of army lists for the 30 Years War and ECW called Europe’s Ruin, and is currently available to pre-order through Amazon and Caliver Books. (The publication date, as well as the price, is unclear at present. Amazon states 30 January, Caliver “early January”, while Helion’s website says “spring 2024”, with no price quoted.)
Andrew
Edit: I see that you have referred to the new edition by Helion but have left my comment intact due to the conflicting information that is currently available.
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:o Great work!
“Argad“ (mix of RPG and skirmish game) has a reference sheet for the late 16th and the first half of the 17th century with which Wars of Religion and TYW games are quite often played :) (I don't know if it has been used for the ECW yet).
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You also have "Flashing Steel" from Ganesha Games wich is similar with "En Garde" from Osprey.
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Amazing really. I had know idea there were so many options.
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Many thanks for this. Some real gaming nostalgia. I started with Gush's WRG set back in the mid '70s using Hinchliffe Poles and later Essex Muscovites. I've now gone full circle and am thinking of the "Deluge" period of the Swedish-Polish--Russian ( plus others) wars of the 1650s-70s. However I might drop to 6 or 10mm. Thus this is very timely as Twilight of Divine Right plus its Eastern supplements might be worth a look.
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I’ve just remembered Renaissance Principles of War, covering the period 1494 - 1660, according to the cover. I think there were two editions, the first being published in 2000, the second a few years later. No idea of current availability.
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I’ve just remembered Renaissance Principles of War, covering the period 1494 - 1660, according to the cover. I think there were two editions, the first being published in 2000, the second a few years later. No idea of current availability.
Out of print now, unlikely to be reprinted.
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Archworld.
This was a set I bought in 1982. It was written in the late '70s. It caught my eye in the Games Shop due to the fact the Human civilisation was 17th Century, very un-Warhammer/ D&D that I was used to.
I loved the setting, but hated the rules.
Check this out:
One of the reasons behind the genesis of the Archworld rules has been an attempt to respond to the needs and complaints of many wargamers who feel that most of the ancient warfare rules now available are far too complex. Too many of these game systems require an excessive amount of log keeping and the use of overly long sets of tables.
Then look at this from the rulebook!! :o
(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/-xNcVQvXVI4b32b90mS5Jw__imagepage/img/swx-n2XB4kGB3j359oO5xoJbYeo=/fit-in/900x600/filters:no_upscale():strip_icc()/pic4162878.jpg)
Board Game Geek has a good write up and pictures: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25161/archworld (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25161/archworld)
I tried them out at the time and rejected the rules, but never forgot the background. Years later I put on an Archworld game using DBR and had my ECW army V an alliance of Goblins, Innuits and Mongols.
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@Traveller - thank you. I'd find a rating system very hard - rules are so subjective. I think the most important things are the rules you and your gaming buddies know, and like. Even this is a constantly shifting picture ;D .
@Cholmondely Percival IV - great info - will include in the next update. Sorry it was tricky to comment on the blog. Blogger is a bit of a pain to use. I've found it works best when using Chrome as the browser, but still not perfect.
@Patrice - thanks - will add at the next update. :)
@Rumacara - cheers - will add those in next time. 8)
@Codsticker - it's amazing, isn't it! I expected it to be a list of around a dozen when I started lol . I've already had more than a dozen further suggested across the various socials in the last 24 hours o_o .
@SJWi - Gush were my first rules for the period as well. Glad to know you're getting back in to the period. TODR are a very interesting set and to me seem truly innovative. Definitely suit smaller scales (although should also work for larger).
@Nick - info and suggested set very much appreciated! Will add at the next update.
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Archworld.
One of the reasons behind the genesis of the Archworld rules has been an attempt to respond to the needs and complaints of many wargamers who feel that most of the ancient warfare rules now available are far too complex. Too many of these game systems require an excessive amount of log keeping and the use of overly long sets of tables.
Not to be confused with the ArcWorlde setting from Warp Miniatures, I take it. I have to wonder which “far too complex” rules the designer was reacting against and hope that he made a full recovery.
BTW, Nick, you’ve entered the wrong link to the BGG entry.
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The only one I could think to add would be Pike, Shotte and Zombie.
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I may be somewhat pushing the envelope of what ought to be included in a directory of rules for the period by bringing up two sets of which I know almost nothing (though I own, or did own, one of them) but they share an interesting characteristic in their titles being taken from poems by the Marquess of Montrose. One is by Neil Danskin, author of the Lion of the North set of 30 YW rules that appears to be untraceable. (It dates from the early 90’s and I have a copy somewhere). His other set is aimed specifically at Montrose’s campaigns and goes by the delightful name Then Place My Parboiled Head Upon a Stake, from the poem he wrote the night before his execution. It is listed on BGG but with no other information.
Bizarrely, I can give even less information on the other set, as I’ve forgotten the title, which seems strong grounds for disqualification. I remember only that it also had a striking - though clearly not memorable - name, which also came from a poem by Montrose. I’m reasonably sure that the author was based in Scotland but beyond that, and that it was most likely also published in the early 1990’s, I’m drawing a blank. In spite of the name, I don’t think it was focused on Montrose’s campaigns. I’ll try to do a bit of research on his poetry and something may jar my memory.
Edit: There seem to be only 13 surviving poems by Montrose and, while I am yet to read them all, I have located the one which from which the title of the mysterious ECW rules was taken. The poem, To His Mistress, or at any rate one verse of it, is in fact quite famous, having been quoted by Montgomery on the eve of D-Day, but the concluding line is the one with which we are concerned here: “To win or lose it all”. This, I am reasonably sure, is the title of the rules, though whether this is sufficient to qualify them for inclusion in the directory is another matter.
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@Traveller - thank you. I'd find a rating system very hard - rules are so subjective. I think the most important things are the rules you and your gaming buddies know, and like. Even this is a constantly shifting picture ;D .
I would suggest different thing. Change (or better yet make supporting list) of grouping, or categorization to present those In print, and popular in the beginning, and those with only historical interest (or of sentimental value) later in the list somehow
To make it more useful for someone looking at options.
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I’ve discovered another defunct set, Husaria, for Eastern Europe, published by the Pike and Shot Society in 2003, but not currently listed among their publications for sale. The BGG entry includes a fairly detailed first impression based on a reading of the rules.
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Great list.
one set I didn’t see on it was ‘Warfare in the Age of Discovery’”
There are also a couple of more obscure sets:
“Discovering English Civil War wargaming” (Shire)
And the Shire diceless wargame rules which cover ECW.
Piquet: Field Of Battle also goes back as far as ECW (and is a very good set for solo game)
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I may be somewhat pushing the envelope of what ought to be included in a directory of rules for the period by bringing up two sets of which I know almost nothing (though I own, or did own, one of them) but they share an interesting characteristic in their titles being taken from poems by the Marquess of Montrose. One is by Neil Danskin, author of the Lion of the North set of 30 YW rules that appears to be untraceable. (It dates from the early 90’s and I have a copy somewhere). His other set is aimed specifically at Montrose’s campaigns and goes by the delightful name Then Place My Parboiled Head Upon a Stake, from the poem he wrote the night before his execution. It is listed on BGG but with no other information.
Bizarrely, I can give even less information on the other set, as I’ve forgotten the title, which seems strong grounds for disqualification. I remember only that it also had a striking - though clearly not memorable - name, which also came from a poem by Montrose. I’m reasonably sure that the author was based in Scotland but beyond that, and that it was most likely also published in the early 1990’s, I’m drawing a blank. In spite of the name, I don’t think it was focused on Montrose’s campaigns. I’ll try to do a bit of research on his poetry and something may jar my memory.
Edit: There seem to be only 13 surviving poems by Montrose and, while I am yet to read them all, I have located the one which from which the title of the mysterious ECW rules was taken. The poem, To His Mistress, or at any rate one verse of it, is in fact quite famous, having been quoted by Montgomery on the eve of D-Day, but the concluding line is the one with which we are concerned here: “To win or lose it all”. This, I am reasonably sure, is the title of the rules, though whether this is sufficient to qualify them for inclusion in the directory is another matter.
Thanks for more fabulous information! Fascinating that Neil Danskin wrote two sets of rules about Montrose, both titled after his poetry. Do you remember if there were any key differences between the two sets? I will certainly look out for them on the second hand market, and add them to the list in the next update. (Mike Siggins has also mentioned 'Parboiled Head' and added a reference on the BGG site.)
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I would suggest different thing. Change (or better yet make supporting list) of grouping, or categorization to present those In print, and popular in the beginning, and those with only historical interest (or of sentimental value) later in the list somehow
To make it more useful for someone looking at options.
That is an excellent suggestion AWu. It would be nice to be able to tag each rule set to allow all sorts of filtering, as you suggest. I will look into it but it require a level of web design beyond the time I have to invest in the list.
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Great list.
one set I didn’t see on it was ‘Warfare in the Age of Discovery’”
There are also a couple of more obscure sets:
“Discovering English Civil War wargaming” (Shire)
And the Shire diceless wargame rules which cover ECW.
Piquet: Field Of Battle also goes back as far as ECW (and is a very good set for solo game)
Many thanks, Steve! I will add those to the list on the next update.
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Thanks for more fabulous information! Fascinating that Neil Danskin wrote two sets of rules about Montrose, both titled after his poetry. Do you remember if there were any key differences between the two sets? I will certainly look out for them on the second hand market, and add them to the list in the next update. (Mike Siggins has also mentioned 'Parboiled Head' and added a reference on the BGG site.)
I’m glad that the info is of interest but I may have caused some confusion regarding the rules I’ve mentioned, not helped by the gaps in my memory. The two sets that take their names from lines of Montrose’s poetry are not by the same author, and only one is designed around Montrose’s campaigns. (This is Parboiled Head, by Neil Danskin, which unfortunately I have not seen. I read about it on a blog a few years ago, but don’t remember whose. It may have been Mike Siggins’ but I can’t say for sure). The set that I tentatively suggest is called To Win or Lose It All - the verse from which that line is taken definitely appears as an epigraph within the rule book - is a general ECW set. I haven’t seen my copy in a long time, though I believe I still have it, and don’t remember the author’s name, though I bought it from him directly. (He asked me for feedback, which, sadly, I didn’t provide as I never played a game).
The other set by Neil Danskin, which I do own - but, again, have not seen recently - is Lion of the North, for the Thirty Years War. Having read it long ago, all I remember is that it is element-based, and contains some interesting notes about the commanders. (One which stuck in my mind is that Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar, in the author’s opinion, was superior to Gustav Adolf).
Unfortunately I have no idea whether I will ever locate my copies of Lion of the North or the ECW set, though I live in hope and, should I do so, will read them again and post any information that may be of interest. Similarly if I am lucky enough to acquire or even view a copy of Parboiled Head.
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I’m glad that the info is of interest but I may have caused some confusion regarding the rules I’ve mentioned, not helped by the gaps in my memory. The two sets that take their names from lines of Montrose’s poetry are not by the same author, and only one is designed around Montrose’s campaigns. (This is Parboiled Head, by Neil Danskin, which unfortunately I have not seen. I read about it on a blog a few years ago, but don’t remember whose. It may have been Mike Siggins’ but I can’t say for sure). The set that I tentatively suggest is called To Win or Lose It All - the verse from which that line is taken definitely appears as an epigraph within the rule book - is a general ECW set. I haven’t seen my copy in a long time, though I believe I still have it, and don’t remember the author’s name, though I bought it from him directly. (He asked me for feedback, which, sadly, I didn’t provide as I never played a game).
The other set by Neil Danskin, which I do own - but, again, have not seen recently - is Lion of the North, for the Thirty Years War. Having read it long ago, all I remember is that it is element-based, and contains some interesting notes about the commanders. (One which stuck in my mind is that Bernhard of Saxe-Weimar, in the author’s opinion, was superior to Gustav Adolf).
Unfortunately I have no idea whether I will ever locate my copies of Lion of the North or the ECW set, though I live in hope and, should I do so, will read them again and post any information that may be of interest. Similarly if I am lucky enough to acquire or even view a copy of Parboiled Head.
Thanks for the clarification - duly noted :)
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Out of print now, unlikely to be reprinted.
You can still buy them on eBay from the author's widow. I bought a copy a few months ago
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My pal gave me a set to look at before Christmas:
With Musket, Pike and Drum by Chris Swan (Partizan Press) They look pretty good to me although have not played them as yet.
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You can still buy them on eBay from the author's widow. I bought a copy a few months ago
Thanks for the info - I will include in the next update. Very sad to hear about Tom or John.
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My pal gave me a set to look at before Christmas:
With Musket, Pike and Drum by Chris Swan (Partizan Press) They look pretty good to me although have not played them as yet.
Thanks, VodkaFan. I have that set in the list :) .
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For anyone who doesn’t suffer from it, people with OCD can be useful and / or annoying to different degrees. Anyone who falls in the latter camp may be well advised to avoid reading the remainder of this post, which is the result of a not untypical episode following another scan of the list on the blog.
Firstly, two of the links to downloadable rules are dead, these being for Michael Peters’ Lion of the North and Clarence Harrison’s Victory Without Quarter. In the case of the former, while a search at the Free Warfare Rules wiki brings up the rules and two supplements, these are impossible to download, as comments by frustrated users make clear.
More positively, having just scanned Caliver Books’s catalogue of rules and games for the Pike and Shot period, I have discovered six currently available sets that have not yet been mentioned, and may well have missed others. These are:
A Crowning Mercy by David Bickley, confusingly listed twice at different prices;
About Cromwell by Dirk Donvil, said to be aimed at games with 40 mm - 54 mm (or larger) figures;
Anchor of Faith (Piquet supplement, author not named);
Pike Hack: The Road to Dunbar (author not named), a mass battle set;
Play the Thirty Years War by Luca Stefano Cristini & Gianpaolo Bistulfi, part of a series of books called Paper Battles & Dioramas);
To the Banners: Rules for Renaissance Warfare by Stephen Danes.
There are, in addition, a number of sets for swashbuckling and pirate-themed games, and at least one supernatural skirmish set (Witchin’ Hour, no author named).
I hope this is of some interest and that anyone who has experience of reading or playing any of these rules will comment on them.
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Victory Without Quarter can be downloaded via the Facebook group of the same name.
Don't forget Witchfinder General rules (if you are casting the net further into supernatural C17th)
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Could you provide a link to the download please, Radar? I downloaded VWQ years ago but can’t find the file now. I’m not on FB and there seem to be quite a few people called Clarence Harrison so it could be a lengthy search.
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Thanks for the info - I will include in the next update. Very sad to hear about Tom or John.
This is weird. The authors are not dead, both are well, and the EBay posts say 'Wife of Author' today. What is going on o_o
The Principles of War authors have a Facebook page here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/4535715483123620 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/4535715483123620)
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https://m.facebook.com/groups/792409668842460/permalink/793747698708657/
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Thank you. The link works but it looks as though one can only download the rules by joining the group, which means joining Facebook - a step too far for my liking.
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A further entry: Wargame the English Civil War 1642 - 1651 in the Paper Soldiers series by Peter Dennis, with rules by Andy Callan.
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@Cholmondely Percival IV - no problems with your diligence and effort in searching out further rules - all info. much appreciated (although the next update to the list is going to be a big one! lol ).
@Radar - thanks for providing the link and the Witchfinder rules, Mike :) .
@NickNorthStar - thanks for following up.
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For completeness, you could also mention that For king & Parliament now has two scenario books available, both written by me and available along with the rules from the Big Red Bat's shop:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/9d7f6498-1a35-4d39-879e-31b1cab2fcf6/M2M+Front+Cover.jpg?format=1500w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/afcd9d69-80b0-4cfd-8656-b3ebba5c39db/Norchester+Front+Cover.jpg?format=1500w)
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Thanks so much for these, Rob. :)
I am going to add a separate list for scenario books and these will be a great addition. I guess the new Montrose books will perhaps go in this list as well?
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Just another thing about the Archworld rules, I recalled that is was this picture in the book that inspired me to buy it. I think it was the first time I'd seen a piece of art trying the depict the close quarter struggle of a pike block. Hope you like it. (I'm probably not supposed to reproduce the art)
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Thanks so much for these, Rob. :)
I am going to add a separate list for scenario books and these will be a great addition. I guess the new Montrose books will perhaps go in this list as well?
Yes, and I can't wait for them to be published either!
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Just another thing about the Archworld rules, I recalled that is was this picture in the book that inspired me to buy it. I think it was the first time I'd seen a piece of art trying the depict the close quarter struggle of a pike block. Hope you like it. (I'm probably not supposed to reproduce the art)
That’s a really striking picture, Nick.
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I did say I might have missed some of the rules listed by Caliver Books and I’ve now noticed two that I’d overlooked.
The first is Pike and Shot by Slitherine (no author given but said to be based on Renaissance Field of Glory) and comes in CD-Rom form. It appears to be a set of miniatures rules rather than a computer game but this, along with other details, would require further research.
The second is a printed rule set titled Renaissance Warfare dating from 1998 and attributed to ‘Gore T’. There is more information here:
https://littlemenatwar.com/renaissance-warfare-rules-for-tactical-miniature-battles-from-1494-1690-a-d/
BGG also has an entry but no reviews.
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Pike and Shot by Slitherine is a computer game
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Thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately Caliver Books’ descriptions are often lacking in basic information, as in this case. Have you played it, by the way?
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Yes. Expect a review on KeepYourPowderDry imminently
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For anyone who may be concerned about me, I do have a life; it just happens to consist of obsessively exploring rabbit holes of various kinds depending on whatever impulse happens to possess me at any given time.
With that out of the way, here are some more rules currently listed by Caliver Books for the pike and shot era, omitting some that appear to merely overlap with it (though there seems to be no hard and fast rule about this and I have to admit I’m not being entirely consistent).
As a case in point, I’ll begin with Face Another Foe: Wargaming the Lace Wars, 1650 - 1750 by Jon and Diane Sutherland. There is second volume, including army lists and scenarios for this.
The remainder are more specific to the pike and shot period as normally understood, beginning with a revised edition of a classic tome:
Wargaming Pike and Shot by Don Featherstone. I don’t know what other additions have been made, but this edition includes a set of ECW rules.
English Civil War Sieges: Rules and Scenarios for Wargames by Stephen Maggs, published by Partizan Press.
For God, King and Country: A Guidebook to the English Civil War, published by Canadian Wargames Group. Includes ECW rules and ten scenarios.
English Civil War: Secrets of Wargame Design by Wally Simon. Subtitled A Tabletop Toolkit of Ideas, Analysis and Rules Mechanisms. Includes a set of “very basic” solo rules.
There are also some naval rule sets but I will leave that area to those who are more nautically inclined.
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The Featherstone P&S book does not have a set of rules in it, just a scenarios book.
(I've got the first edition)
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Apparently the revised edition does. Many of these newer editions of old wargaming books have extra material of some kind. I don’t know who has published this edition but merely repeated the information from Caliver.
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Thanks for the additional digging Cholmondely Percival IV. Added to the list for the next update. :)
I have played the Pike and Shot game by Slitherine, when you could get a version that ran on an old iPad. It was relatively entertaining and also a useful personal reminder of why I don't like digital games - no chance to argue with the rules ;D .
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A very useful list of rules, I have tried quite a few of them.
A quick question about the Warlord Pike and Shotte rules. I have a copy of the 28mm rules and am wondering if the new Epic scale rules vary from them at all. I am particularly interested to know if a Pike and Shotte unit is treated differently. In the 28mm rules, if I am remembering this correctly, the main body of Pike and the two sleeves of shotte accumulate stamina separately, in Epic are they treated as one unit. I am hoping so as this should speed play up allowing for more units on the table?
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There's only really subtle differences between the 'normal' and 'epic' versions. The text appears to have been completely rewritten, but same ideas just in a different order.
I was expecting a change in movement and firing range distances (i.e. reduced distance and range, more in keeping with the size of the figures), but they are identical.
Obviously the photos have been replaced by 'epic' pictures, there's bits from To Kill A King added (and I assume Devil's Playground), notably army lists
The only real difference I have found so far, and hopefully I haven't misinterpreted this, is that traditional units of foot are now made up of combined pike and shot, rather than counted as separate units operating together.
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Thanks for the quick reply. That is very useful as I was hoping Pike and Shotte would be treated as a single unit. I may well pick up a copy.
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An update on Renatio et Gloriam: the Helion edition has been published today and is available at the reduced price of £28 until 25 January.
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I received my copy of Renatio et Gloriam today and, coincidentally, a copy of Beneath the Lily Banners 3rd. edition, aka The War of Three
Kings. The former covers the period 1494 -1721, the latter 1660 - 1721. In other words, both include the War of Spanish Succession and the Great Northern War, but as the latter at least did see the continued use of pikes, there seems no reason why BtLB should not be included in the list, depending on just how one chooses to define the pike and shot era. At any rate Donnybrook, which goes all the way up to the mid-18th century, and shares some DNA and mechanics with the new iteration of BtLB, appears to have encountered no objections.
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Cholmondely, I was thinking about buying Renatio et Gloriam as a possible set for my prospective 17th century Eastern Europe project. I missed the deadline for the Helion sale plus couldn't find online any answers to me queries. Can you tell me how figures/units are based? I plan to game in 10mm and would much prefer whole units to be on a single base with no figure removal. I can do this for "For King and Parliament" but no idea about ReG.
Thanks
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I’ll take a look at those points and report my findings later.
The introductory price of £28 is valid until 25 January after which it will be £35, though Caliver Books is listing it at £27.50 (I don’t know whether this will also rise).
There is a website that may answer some of your questions:
https://renatio-et-gloriam.co.uk/smf/index.php
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Thanks, I see I can also get them via Mr Bezos' e-commerce platform for £25. I must admit I am tempted.
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Oh, it must have gone down on Amazon. It was about £32 when I looked and shown as not available until the end of the month.
One thing to bear in mind with regard to the cost, however, is that, unlike Mortem et Gloriam, it does not come with the necessary cards and special dice, or even a separate QRS (though it transpires that there are a couple of mistakes in the one in the book, corrected in the downloadable one). I’m trying to find out from the website whether these will be available separately or if players are meant to substitute regular dice and cards.
Along with this I’ll make a start in reading the book shortly and try to answer your questions.
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Interesting, I saw the pictures of the dice in use on the website and reference to the cards. Rather weirdly they speak of coloured cards which also the same colour as the dice. I seem to recall a similar system for the ancient set MeG when it was sold by Plastic Soldier Company, and all in all it made the rules pretty pricey. I'm also intrigued as to why Helion are publishing two sets of rules for the same period with "Renatio et Gloriam" and "In Deo Veritas". ReG covers a longer timespan being for both 16th and 17th centuries but it still strikes me as a tad odd.
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MeG came - and as far as I’m aware, still comes - in a boxed set that includes the dice and cards. These - or at any rate substitutes for them - are certainly needed for ReG but to date I’ve not seen anything about how to acquire them. The dice are almost certainly the same as in MeG - a set of five colours, each die with the same combination of symbols and blank faces - but the cards may be different. The introduction to the rules states that an official set is available, as is a bag of tokens that can be used instead of the cards, and I can only assume that these may be purchased from the website, though I haven’t found the web store as yet. The key point, I think, is that the cards and tokens are colour-coded, like the dice, and it seems that any system that achieves this will work. It is explicitly stated that “players are welcome to create their own.”
With regard to basing, any system, including individual figures, is usable. Pike and shot are not organised separately. Rather than the archetypal wargames unit, the system uses the concept of a TUG - Tactical Unit Group - comprising a variable number of notional bases. Measurement is by base width (BW) so that any scale of figures can be used, as can any size of base.
There is no individual figure removal but a base is removed after incurring three wounds. A TUG may be reduced to half its original number of bases but on incurring a further wound is destroyed.
With regard to period duplication or overlap with In Deo Veritas, I can only assume that Helion feels that the two rule systems and their respective scopes are sufficiently different to warrant this. Osprey, you may recall, have produced two systems for the American Civil War, Across a Deadly Field and the recent With Hot Lead and Cold Steel.
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A further note on pricing. It is Books Etc. that is selling ReG on Amazon for a little under £25. Amazon itself is not currently listing it.
The rule book does not include army lists. A separate book called Europe’s Ruin will be published later with lists for the ECW and 30YW and there may be others in the pipeline but it seems that lists for more obscure armies will only be available in PDF form. Fifteen are currently available at £2 each from this site:
https://ccc-games.co.uk/product-category/renatio-et-gloriam/
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According to the Helion website "Europe's Ruin" is now available and has 55 army lists for the Thirty Years War and ECW. I think I will hold off from buying them until I know more about the availability of the required cards and dice.
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That seems wise. I joined the ReG forum earlier and asked about this. To date there have been six views and no replies, which is not encouraging.
I have discovered that packs of cards are available from the Plastic Soldier Company for £6.99. (One is required per player). It says that they are equally suitable for MeG and ReG. No dice are shown, though you can get a nice purple draw-string bag with the MeG logo. They no longer seem to sell the MeG rules as the compendium edition is apparently sold out. I think - based on a blog post from 2022 - that the rules may now be available in PDF and / or POD form but I don’t know where from, as someone appears to have thought it a good idea to make finding key information difficult.
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Thanks. I too looked at the PSC site and found the cards, but don't know if they are for ReG v1 or v2 or both? I guess PSC won't mention V2 as they are nothing to do with it. Caliver also sell ReG v2 but their website makes no mention of needing either additional dice or cards which is either ignorant of the situation of a bit naughty. Helion are on the traders list for the Hammerhead show in Newark on March 2nd so I might wait until (a) I can see them in the flesh and (b) talk to someone face-to-face. Also, they quite often have "show special" discounts.
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A very useful list of rules, I have tried quite a few of them.
A quick question about the Warlord Pike and Shotte rules. I have a copy of the 28mm rules and am wondering if the new Epic scale rules vary from them at all. I am particularly interested to know if a Pike and Shotte unit is treated differently. In the 28mm rules, if I am remembering this correctly, the main body of Pike and the two sleeves of shotte accumulate stamina separately, in Epic are they treated as one unit. I am hoping so as this should speed play up allowing for more units on the table?
Hi Bodvoc, to confirm what Radar has already said, the Epic version of the P&S rules are essentially the same as the regular set. The Epic set assumes you will fight foot units of pike and shot as single game units. The main rules allow you to do this as well, it is just different sets of factors, but it covers both approaches. Also, in the Epic version, the army lists and scenarios are focused on TYW and ECW rather than on the whole 1500-1700 period. Otherwise no difference in the actual rules. The Epic version of the rules are in a handy A5 softback edition.
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@SJWi and @Cholmondely Percival IV
I am sort of relieved that you both had the same confusion I did. lol I have gone ahead and ordered the rules and army lists, but it was quite difficult to track down if the cards and special dice were prerequisites to being able to play, and it seems they are. Special dice etc. can be a concern, especially when I would be introducing the rules in a club environment in which I would need to bring all of the ‘game bits’ and it can make multiplayer games more awkward.
I imagine it is a similar headache to get cards printed and dice made, so perhaps there will be a restock in the near future.
I would be interested if anyone comes across a vendor selling both cards and dice :D .
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General Haig, I think what I find disappointing is that nowhere does it actually say up front that you need these. I would almost say it is being "economical with the truth" . Other vendors such as Two Fat Lardies, some of whose games need cards and chits, are totally transparent about what you need to play the game and the "all-up"price. The fact that you can't seem to buy the damn things adds insult to injury!
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I have just seen this reply to my query on the ReG forum:
>>>
Re: Dice, cards & tokens
« Reply #1 on: Today at 10:56:04 AM »
Quote
Hi , the dice & cards etc are available from CCC games too.
dice
We are just waiting for the stock to arrive at the new premises (which should be soon) , and then they will go up for sale
I will make the link on the REG website clearer!
thanks
Simon
<<<
The above link to CCC does not work though it did in Simon’s reply:
https://ccc-games.co.uk/product-category/ccc-games/
This is the site from which the obscure army lists can be bought. I did not see the game accessories when I visited it yesterday, which isn’t to say they weren’t there…
At any rate, all appears finally to be clear, at least with regard to ReG. I’ve asked for a clarification on the current availability of MeG.
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Thanks for running this to ground. I still find it a tad disingenous that Helion, the publishers of v2, don't make the fact that you need to buy dice and cards from someone else to have a workable set of rules 100% obvious on the part of the website actually selling the rules. Scrabbling round trying to find links to a forum just doesn't hack it for me. I would almost say a case of "Sharp Practice"!
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I agree. Sub-optimal marketing, without question. I suppose they might argue that the official dice and cards aren’t essential, which is technically true as one can make one’s own, at least in the case of the cards / tokens, and make mental conversions when using ordinary dice but that’s hardly ideal as it adds a barrier to the quick and intuitive game play that is one of the system’s selling points.
FWIW I also think that the book, given its size, ought to be in hard cover, as MeG was, but that would bring it to £40 + which they no doubt think people would balk at. I imagine there was a fair amount of debate over these issues but the handling certainly leaves something to be desired.
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I've dropped Helion an e-mail on the matter so will see what they say. As regards the matter of hardback vs paperback I think most Helions are paperback including all the other titles in this series.
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Yes, I understand their wargame rules are all in paperback, which wouldn’t normally be a concern. ReG is 238 pages long, however, and in my view this really calls for hard covers. In play or simply reading it’s going to get a lot of wear and flimsy covers aren’t going to withstand this.
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Thanks @CPIV for the update - good to know that the ‘do-hickeys’ are in process.
My copies arrived via postie drop this morning. They are big tomes - size of the Warlord rule books / lists, but in soft covers. From a quick flip through they are excellent looking books with some nice Helion illustrations throughout. Lots of diagrams. Every para is numbered which makes me nervous, but could be useful. ;D
Lists look very thorough with lots of nice ideas on troops types (don’t think I’ll be playing any point based games - but good to get ideas on troop types etc.)
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A final word to point out that I’ve had a further reply from Simon and posted his information re MeG on the ancients forum.
Also it may be worth a reminder that, pace the bulk of recent posts, this particular thread isn’t specifically about ReG and, as the saying goes, other pike and shot rules are available. There are certainly some I still want.
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Good point. My initial interest in Helion was for their othe17th centuty set. I seem to have been hijacked by ReG.
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Me too. New Kid on the Block Syndrome, exacerbated by the mystery of how to acquire the accessories, now thankfully resolved. Perhaps there will be a similar frenzy over TFL’s In the Buff when it is eventually released, under whatever name.
Incidentally, might I suggest that this topic warrants sticky status?
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Back again, and not about ReG this time. As no-one else has, I’ve taken it upon myself to announce that Furioso English Civil War is now available in print and PDF form from Alternative Armies, with bundles of rules and armies for those who want them.
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ReG forum, like so many rules specific forums, is very very quiet. 'Official' Facebook group is much more active, which is unfortunate for those who dislike all things Meta.
The supplement was released the day after the main rulebook. There's a discount code for those who bought the original rules, and iirc Helion are still running the launch discount (if it is still running, it'll be soon run out).
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Back again, and not about ReG this time. As no-one else has, I’ve taken it upon myself to announce that Furioso English Civil War is now available in print and PDF form from Alternative Armies, with bundles of rules and armies for those who want them.
All I'll say about the figures is 'caveat emptor'; on the 18mm size of '15mm', inspired by very dubious source material.
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Evidently ReG is not ready to be sidelined just yet. I didn’t know about the discount code on Europe’s Ruin - probably my fault for not registering interest, as I did for the rulebook. Buying it is now more urgent than I’d anticipated, though I’m wondering about the appearance of pike and shot troops given that the rules state these should not be based separately, but each TUG - a loose collection of troops roughly corresponding to a brigade - consists of a number of bases, which are removed on incurring wounds. If each base is meant to include both pikemen and musketeers the overall effect will be rather odd, it seems to me, particularly in larger scales, with fewer figures per base. I’m not very far into reading the rules so perhaps I’ve missed something.
Edit: Indeed I had, or rather, I misinterpreted the paragraphs on pike and shot formations in the Overview chapter. On rereading this, I now see that each base does consist of a single troop type, but that “all bases within a unit have the same abilities”. What is not explicitly stated, though I should have inferred it, is that while the figures are based by type (pikemen and arquebusiers / musketeers on their own bases) they are not regarded as being different as it is the overall capabilities of the unit that matter. This is essentially what one would expect but I somehow read more into the explanation than is actually there. Photos in the book of pike and shot formations show the models arranged in the normal fashion, i.e. a central block of pikemen flanked by arquebusiers / musketeers and in the section devoted to formations at the end of the book we find, “Pike and shot TUGs are four bases of arquebusiers / musketeers and two boxes of pike in size. (There is also a large pike and shot formation comprising six and three respectively. In both cases it is stated that the pikes occupy the central file).
It is, incidentally, a little odd to find the word ‘unit’ used in the first text from the Overview I quoted when the previous paragraph states, “We don’t use the term ‘unit’ going forward as it means many different things to different people”. Clearly old habits are hard to break.
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I’ve been waiting for those helion rules to come out. It’s an incredibly heavy investment if you don’t like them. Rules £25, dice £10, cards £7. Plus the ECW lists £25. You’ll probably need 2 sets of dice so another £10.
£77 is a lump of cash. I don’t mind spending it if it’s a great system. But it’s a gamble.
Furioso is a set I already have and for £12 for the ECW set seems like a bargain. AA are great to deal with as well.
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Steders, I agree. I'm looking for a set of rules for my prospective 10mm "Eastern Europe" project and at the moment these rules feel just too much of a gamble. Helion's other 17th century-specific set are a contender and at £20 ( or £15 from Mr Bezos) are a currently more attractive proposition.
The price for me isn't the killer, as I guess you could do without the army lists and perform your own research or read-across from other rulesets. Other game systems which involve cards/chits/dice such as those from the Two Fat Lardies can also cost £50+. What is putting me off are the "unknowns"....are they any good??
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I see that Alternative Armies is releasing a ECW specific version of their Furioso rules, the original version already on the list: link (https://alternative-armies.blogspot.com/2024/01/furioso-english-civil-war-rules-and.html).
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I can hardly disagree with the views expressed by steders and SJWi with regard to the heavy investment required by ReG. For better or worse I’m personally now committed, having ordered the cards and dice (the latter of which arrived today - the last two sets from Battlefield Hobbies, which I found shortly before learning of their availability from CCC Games).
Time will tell whether the investment is justified but I don’t feel it is a total shot in the dark, given that the CCC system has established itself through MeG, which has a dedicated fan base, many of whom attend tournaments. In the interest of full disclosure, I say this as someone who owns both the original ring-binder and Compendium editions, but has never played a game. Sadly circumstances have conspired to make me a collector rather than active gamer though I haven’t given up hope that this may change.
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Cholmondely, will you be playing them any time soon? I guess even a report given a read-through would be most welcome. You sound as if you are approaching them with an open mind rather than being a "disciple"!
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Sadly it doesn’t seem likely. I can’t play at home as things stand and my experience with clubs hasn’t been encouraging. There’s nothing I’d like more, though, and I’ll certainly read them as I want to get a proper sense of the system. I’ll let you know my thoughts though you’ll have to bear in mind that I have little practical experience of other systems for purposes of comparison.
You’re right that I’m interested in how CCC - or any rules system - handles the realities of battle in the period in question as well as providing an involving and enjoyable experience.
I’m in the East Midlands (UK) and have no personal transport. I’d be open to playing a game in the area subject to resolving the logistical issues. (That said, I have no ready armies!)
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Here goes with my initial attempt at summarising ReG as part of my own efforts to get to grips with it. This will hopefully serve as a learning tool for myself as well as anyone who is curious and I thought I’d start by going through the types of die used in ReG and all CCC games, including a forthcoming board game called Total War: Rome and a number of projected miniatures rules for other periods. CCC stands for Colour, Command, and Combat. At the heart of the system is the following sequence of colours that govern the difficulty of actions: Black, White, Green, Yellow, Red. I have not yet read far enough into the rules to state how these work in all circumstances but it seems clear that this sequence is integral.
The set of dice that is - at least notionally - required for play comprises two of each colour. The colour used in a given situation depends on the quality and status of the troops. Each die type has a different distribution of symbols with a varying number of blank faces, meaning ‘no effect’. The weakest die (black) has four blank faces. The number of blank faces decreases as one goes up the scale, i.e. white:3, green: 2, yellow: 1, red: 0.
The symbols are, in order of effectiveness, crossed swords indicating a wound or success, the letter S for ‘special’ (a wound plus additional result) and a skull meaning great success, or two wounds in the case of combat.
Just as the number of blank faces decreases as one goes up the colour scale, so the frequency of positive results increases. Thus the only symbols on the black die are one each of wound and special, while the white one has two wounds and one special. The skull makes its first appearance on the green die, along with two wounds and one S. Yellow has five symbols: skull, S, and three wounds, while Red has two skulls, S, and three wounds.
The dice may sometimes be rolled in multiples, always of the same colour, which is why two sets are desirable.
Similarly, the cards or discs are colour-coded to indicate the probability of success of a given manoeuvre. I don’t have my cards as yet so will describe these at a later date.
All of the above will of course be familiar to anyone who has played MeG or perhaps even read about it. I just include it here as a starting point, which I will add to as I progress through the rules, if people feel it is of use. Clearly there is much more to the system than this but as it is so fundamental I thought it worthwhile setting it out for beginners like myself or the merely curious to familiarise themselves with.
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Cholmondely, thanks for starting to write this. I once watched a few turns of a MeG Wars of the Roses game and it all sounds vaguely familiar. One of the chaps was extolling the virtues of the rules but then he did run a business that sold them!
"Rome Total War" sounds more interesting to me but I think it has been "forthcoming" for several years!
Shame about your gaming situation. I'm lucky that I can easily put up a table at home and have a small group of like-minded mates to game with. One likes fantasy and sci-fi but there's no accounting for taste.
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I’ve edited my earlier post (Reply #77) in light of rereading part of the Overview and referring to the section on pike and shot formations that appears in the final section. (TL, DR: ignore what I said about basing).
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I see that Alternative Armies is releasing a ECW specific version of their Furioso rules, the original version already on the list: link (https://alternative-armies.blogspot.com/2024/01/furioso-english-civil-war-rules-and.html).
Thanks, I’ve ordered them. I haven’t played the original rules but I did like the look of them when I read them.