Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Age of Myths, Gods and Empires => Topic started by: DivisMal on 30 May 2024, 07:06:34 PM
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I've been a bit burnt out recently and haven't painted much over the last year, but recently I finally gave in to temptation and bought some figures - well actually quite a lot.
So I started a crazy project which I have dreamed about for a long time: a 15mm Sumerian army. I’d like to thank fellow LAFer Loxislay here for bringing me to finally make an order - because he is currently the only excuse I have to dream about one day playing with that army!
In this thread I would like to report on my progress, exchange ideas with like-minded people and perhaps infect other "crazies" to wargame the 3rd Millennium BC!
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First on the field of battle is a troop of spearmen, modeled after the depictions on the Standard of Ur (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_Ur)).
Whether this is really earlier set of equipment than the depictions on the Vulture Stele or from Mari, which carry shields, remains to be seen. I will mix both types in the course of the project.
The minis are from Museum Miniatures, and I'm very impressed by the quality. It's at least at the level of Xyston (in the historical sector), and in my opinion comes close to the brilliant work of Mark Copplestone.
The minis are attached to 80 x 40mm wooden plates with Patafix according to the „Berliner Basierung“ (a.k.a. Big Base DBA). The sand is from Tedi, a local poundland version, I can find out the type if needed. To me it looks very much like the sand of southern Mesopotamia. I might paint the edges of the base black at some time, but for the moment it looks fine to me to do rather simple bases.
Hope you like it and getting some feedback!
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And here is my second base. This one is filled with models that were designed with the aforementioned Stele of the Vultures in mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele_of_the_Vultures
Again, great minis that were a blot of fun to paint!
Here you can also see why I went for BBDBA: the spears are too long for smaller bases :o
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They look really good, always wanted to paint up some biblical era armies, cant wait to see more!
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These look amazing! Always happy to see Sumer represented on tabletop, this looks great :D
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Really like seeing this!
I started a 15mm Sumerian army 25+ years ago with Essex miniatures, but ran out of steam pretty quickly, and left it collecting dust on a shelf. Maybe this will spur me to get on it again. Visions of building ziggurats for terrain . . . !
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Divismal
Chief they look really good , well done, i also luv the larger basing and semi diorama look!
All you need now are some Ass Carts ... Huzzah !!
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Thank you gentlemen! I appreciate the positive comments.
The next two bases are right now prepared for pairing.
Divismal
Chief they look really good , well done, i also luv the larger basing and semi diorama look!
All you need now are some Ass Carts ... Huzzah !!
The diorama bases happened more by chance as I was experimenting with different base types: the long spears not only look ridiculous on standard DBA, but also make playing nearly impossible with only 20mm depths. DBA 25mm basing was my preferred choice, but after seeing that the spears still went way over the base, I tried some more and discovered Big Base DBA (a.k.a. Berlin Style DBA basing).
And I agree, now that I see them, I like it a lot.
Really like seeing this!
I started a 15mm Sumerian army 25+ years ago with Essex miniatures, but ran out of steam pretty quickly, and left it collecting dust on a shelf. Maybe this will spur me to get on it again. Visions of building ziggurats for terrain . . . !
That’s also my idea to reward myself after a couple of dozen sheepskin skirts! Maybe wreck pieces of the ark. Definitely a Humbaba and a Gilgamesh.
They look really good, always wanted to paint up some biblical era armies, cant wait to see more!
Sumer is really unique as there isn’t a lot available as enemies (except other Sumerian city states), but what I like about it is that simple beauty of the equipment. And of course the battle wagons!
These look amazing! Always happy to see Sumer represented on tabletop, this looks great :D
Thanks, it’s really great to see how many people have this strange liking for an army that can basically only battle itself!
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I love the Museum Miniatures Summerians as well:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/1576928602281-WDA44MFEXIWSK7C8LZJ1/DSCN0868.JPG?format=1500w)
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5406c773e4b087d8052ef58b/1576928440767-F5RWUORQIR7V2TONYCJJ/DSCN0862.JPG?format=1500w)
More at: https://www.vislardica.com/blog/tag/Anc+Sumerians (https://www.vislardica.com/blog/tag/Anc+Sumerians)
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Wow! Now that is an impressive collection!!! :o :o :o
I hope to have enough endurance to come near to such an army!
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Thank you gentlemen! I appreciate the positive comments.
The next two bases are right now prepared for pairing.
The diorama bases happened more by chance as I was experimenting with different base types: the long spears not only look ridiculous on standard DBA, but also make playing nearly impossible with only 20mm depths. DBA 25mm basing was my preferred choice, but after seeing that the spears still went way over the base, I tried some more and discovered Big Base DBA (a.k.a. Berlin Style DBA basing).
And I agree, now that I see them, I like it a lot.
That’s also my idea to reward myself after a couple of dozen sheepskin skirts! Maybe wreck pieces of the ark. Definitely a Humbaba and a Gilgamesh.
Sumer is really unique as there isn’t a lot available as enemies (except other Sumerian city states), but what I like about it is that simple beauty of the equipment. And of course the battle wagons!
Thanks, it’s really great to see how many people have this strange liking for an army that can basically only battle itself!
Say whut!? Possible opponents include Elamites, Gutians, Lullubi, Amorites/ Martu and there's even a slight chance of one of the opposing Sumerians having Meluhhan allies, if the Meluhhan colony in Sumer wasn't entirely traders and the families and servants/ slaves. There is even a grafitto that may show Old Kingdom Egyptians in combat with Sumerians. To be fair I suspect it doesn't but that won't stop me painting Egyptians, if I ever get that far in the projects
I do my Sumerians in 6mm, when I'm not diverted into Gangs of Rome, say, as at the moment.
I use 60mmx60mm bases and put 48 close order, 32 tribals, 24 skirmishers or 6 "donkey carts" to a base. I like the effect of massed ranks but also the chance to do a little bit of diorama work too.
"Donkey Carts"
(https://imageshack.com/i/poa8eKfHj)
I have a built but unpainted Ziggurat made largely from MDF bases and my version of Humbaba, complete with serpent tail but omitting the serpent headed penis for modesty's sake, is a Microworld "Great Dingonek" mini which now looks like this
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmpcuL1jj)
It's always a delight to see people delving into the Early Bronze Age which seems to me a rich source of inspiration for wargamers. Just enough info to make educated guesses but not enough that anyone can get bogged down in "rivet counting!"
More power to your elbow!
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I've been a bit burnt out recently and haven't painted much over the last year, but recently I finally gave in to temptation and bought some figures - well actually quite a lot.
So I started a crazy project which I have dreamed about for a long time: a 15mm Sumerian army. I’d like to thank fellow LAFer Loxislay here for bringing me to finally make an order - because he is currently the only excuse I have to dream about one day playing with that army!
In this thread I would like to report on my progress, exchange ideas with like-minded people and perhaps infect other "crazies" to wargame the 3rd Millennium BC!
Excellent start to this project. Your figures look great. I really like Museum Miniatures' Z ranges and still have my Trojan War forces to do. After a bit of a hobby slump myself it may be one of the projects to get back going with. Dave at Museum said to me that they definitely have plans to keep expanding the Bronze Age ranges at some point!
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Excellent start to this project. Your figures look great. I really like Museum Miniatures' Z ranges and still have my Trojan War forces to do. After a bit of a hobby slump myself it may be one of the projects to get back going with. Dave at Museum said to me that they definitely have plans to keep expanding the Bronze Age ranges at some point!
Thanks, the Trojan wars range is also verrrrry tempting. But I know once I start it, I’ll have to decide which Myceneans I want (early c. 15th ct. or late 13/12th ct.) and will inevitably come up with Egyptians, Hittites and Israelites, too! Have you seen the excellent Red Copper Miniatures somd by Baueda? I have their Sea People and they are on par or even better (yet more fragile) than Museum Miniatures.
About the latter. More Bronze Age? That is pretty exciting news! I need to contact them! We definitely need a couple more packs with different weapons (not necessarily new poses)!
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Say whut!? Possible opponents include Elamites, Gutians, Lullubi, Amorites/ Martu and there's even a slight chance of one of the opposing Sumerians having Meluhhan allies, if the Meluhhan colony in Sumer wasn't entirely traders and the families and servants/ slaves. There is even a grafitto that may show Old Kingdom Egyptians in combat with Sumerians. To be fair I suspect it doesn't but that won't stop me painting Egyptians, if I ever get that far in the projects
I do my Sumerians in 6mm, when I'm not diverted into Gangs of Rome, say, as at the moment.
I use 60mmx60mm bases and put 48 close order, 32 tribals, 24 skirmishers or 6 "donkey carts" to a base. I like the effect of massed ranks but also the chance to do a little bit of diorama work too.
"Donkey Carts"
(https://imageshack.com/i/poa8eKfHj)
I have a built but unpainted Ziggurat made largely from MDF bases and my version of Humbaba, complete with serpent tail but omitting the serpent headed penis for modesty's sake, is a Microworld "Great Dingonek" mini which now looks like this
(https://imageshack.com/i/pmpcuL1jj)
It's always a delight to see people delving into the Early Bronze Age which seems to me a rich source of inspiration for wargamers. Just enough info to make educated guesses but not enough that anyone can get bogged down in "rivet counting!"
More power to your elbow!
🤩 wow! Those 6mm minis look brilliant! Are they from Microworld? I was very much tempted to go really small, but I fear I lack the skill for that!
Concerning the enemies, you seem to be well informed! Professional background? 8) I‘d be interested about the evidence for Old Kingdom Egyptians fighting Sumer.
In the meantime there’s still a lot to do, before I can think about enemies, but I‘d like to have some northern „barbarians“, like Kura Arax people (roughly I‘m looking for anything late 4th-3rd Millennium BC).
Last: that Humbaba is great! Brilliant idea and great execution. I have something different in mind, but that is a long way to go.
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The 6mm Sumerian figures I have are a mainly Rapier Miniatures with some of the recent Baccus figures to add a bit of variation. The ones in the picture are all Rapier.
The various enemies are a mix of Rapier and Baccus.
The Microworld Bronze Age stuff was too expensive to import by the time they were produced. The Great Dingonek had been bought back before shipping across The Pond became so expensive.
As to using 6mm figures, I find smaller figures easier to paint because there's less detail to paint. As my hand/eye coordination and eyesight deteriorate I find myself drawn to smaller and smaller scales! ::)
I am neither a professional nor an expert just an enthusiastic and well read amateur.
If I can work out which book had the image of the grafitto I'll scan and post it.
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Very nice work, Divismal!
It is a personal preference, but I think that base edges that are wooden or painted in a similar colour to the top surface look best once on a gaming table.
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The 6mm Sumerian figures I have are a mainly Rapier Miniatures with some of the recent Baccus figures to add a bit of variation. The ones in the picture are all Rapier.
The various enemies are a mix of Rapier and Baccus.
The Microworld Bronze Age stuff was too expensive to import by the time they were produced. The Great Dingonek had been bought back before shipping across The Pond became so expensive.
As to using 6mm figures, I find smaller figures easier to paint because there's less detail to paint. As my hand/eye coordination and eyesight deteriorate I find myself drawn to smaller and smaller scales! ::)
I am neither a professional nor an expert just an enthusiastic and well read amateur.
If I can work out which book had the image of the grafitto I'll scan and post it.
Where are you located then, if I may ask? Maybe we’re neighbors?
I‘d very much appreciate the book or just the reference therin.
What you said about hand/eye coordination (or losing degree therof) is the main reason why I lose interest in larger scales; sure 28mm are nice and these days at the same price (at least in plastic) as my 15s, but I can’t paint them as well as they deserve (or take too much time for that).
I hadn’t Rapier on my mind, but hese look pretty cool to me! If in 10 years I say about 15mm what I now say about 28mm, I will head to their shop.
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Very nice work, Divismal!
It is a personal preference, but I think that base edges that are wooden or painted in a similar colour to the top surface look best once on a gaming table.
Thanks. Normally I paint them black, but this time I haven’t decided yet on the base color. Just sand looks okay, but I do want to add a contrast paint and a highlight. Maybe then I’ll paint the edges in the same color as the highlight. I need to think amd experiment a little.
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Where are you located then, if I may ask? Maybe we’re neighbors?
I‘d very much appreciate the book or just the reference therin.
What you said about hand/eye coordination (or losing degree therof) is the main reason why I lose interest in larger scales; sure 28mm are nice and these days at the same price (at least in plastic) as my 15s, but I can’t paint them as well as they deserve (or take too much time for that).
I hadn’t Rapier on my mind, but hese look pretty cool to me! If in 10 years I say about 15mm what I now say about 28mm, I will head to their shop.
I'm in the UK, specifically Edinburgh.
As for the reference, I've thinned my book collection recently so no promises but I'll check those I still have. I had high hopes of "Daily Life In Ancient Mesopotamia" by Karen RheaNemet-Nejat but have checked and it's not in that. Couple of dozen more to go .... if I can find them in this shambles!
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I'm in the UK, specifically Edinburgh.
As for the reference, I've thinned my book collection recently so no promises but I'll check those I still have. I had high hopes of "Daily Life In Ancient Mesopotamia" by Karen RheaNemet-Nejat but have checked and it's not in that. Couple of dozen more to go .... if I can find them in this shambles!
Don’t worry. If you find it, I’ll be very happy to know, otherwise I’ll send in the Army of Chasekhemui anyway (just because it’s too much fun to think about it).
And sadly we’re not neighbors…I live between Bremen and Hannover.
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If you like Sumerian warfare has anyone checked out the ruleset "To Ur is Human; Tabletop Wargame Rules for Conflict in Sumerian Mesopotamia" published by "Wargaming for Grown Ups Publications". I bought a hard copy but think they may also be available from Wargames Vault. Can't recall why I bought them as I don't have any relevant armies. Maybe alcohol was involved.
Having found them in my stash of unused rules and with the Midgard rules almost on the Horizon I could be tempted by some 6mm armies.
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I’ve been considering using To The Strongest to play the period, it’s a really adaptable rules system, and I adore the ancient history of the region. Besides, I’ve been looking for an excuse to paint up some of the Bacchus range anyway lol
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If you like Sumerian warfare has anyone checked out the ruleset "To Ur is Human; Tabletop Wargame Rules for Conflict in Sumerian Mesopotamia" published by "Wargaming for Grown Ups Publications". I bought a hard copy but think they may also be available from Wargames Vault. Can't recall why I bought them as I don't have any relevant armies. Maybe alcohol was involved.
Having found them in my stash of unused rules and with the Midgard rules almost on the Horizon I could be tempted by some 6mm armies.
You will laugh. After deciding to order models, I went through my (pretty extensive [and expensive]) stock of rulesets and found that I had bought To Ur is Humans some time ago. I also suspect alcohol was involved. Or it was Tyler Durden.
The rules read pretty decent. The only thing that seems to be unnecessary complicated is the Fear test.
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I’ve been considering using To The Strongest to play the period, it’s a really adaptable rules system, and I adore the ancient history of the region. Besides, I’ve been looking for an excuse to paint up some of the Bacchus range anyway lol
I haven’t that one yet, but Chariots Rampant and Warhammer will be my starting point, maybe also a little D2H3 once I get my Chumbaba.
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You can still get Chariot Wars for WAB for a good price on eBay. I know - I've bought it twice (after selling it) lol
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I managed to do less than I had hoped for, but the path to the dominance of both Sumer and Akkad is apparently one of many little steps.
My major work was on two more bases of spearmen making it now four that I have. With these I didn’t add any heroic warriors or standards. The idea behind that is to stay flexible enough to combine 2-3 bases for any systems requiring square bases or 3 stands for a unit (looking at you Warmaster Ancients).
Playing around with the bases, I also liked to use the spearmen without shields as a second row ready to support the shielded first d second rank.
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Some leftover figures on round bases. Not yet sure, why I would need those or for what. Maybe as commanders and/or heroes.
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And finally my first ass-chariot. I went for a pretty green for the frontal „barding“/ protective cloth and harness. I will change that to have some individuality here with my future ass wagons.
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I forgot to paint the javelin quivers and realized it only after I took the picture, but even though the model is fine, I do miss the rein ring (lying 8-shaped metal part zo keep the reins from entangling).
This is not some nitpicking but something that was apparently very important and is depicted (assumedly out of scale) on the Standard of Ur (and was found in the respective graves in Ur, too).
I found a good reconstruction picture that gives you an idea how it would have worked. Now how do I make such a thing in 15mm?
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Another detail I am not sure about is the draught pole. I bend it freehand Nto some kind of S-shape. Contemporary depictions usually skip it, I used common sense and some of the better reconstruction, for instance the absolutely brilliant models the Perry twins did for Wargames Foundry.
The asses have necktings on which the yoke is fixed to pull the wagon.
Some other reconstructions apparently assume that some kind of yoke is in front of the onagers so that they actually push it. No idea if this might have actually worked.
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The yoke on the battle car looks fine to me. Given the height, or lack thereof, of the bottom of the cart and the height of an onager's shoulders you'd think there must have been a decent sized bend but there's no obvious way the onagers were connected in any of the depictions I'm aware of, so your interpretation is as good as any!
As for the spearmen, lovely looking figures and differently equipped ranks in a unit are certainly a possibility.
There is some debate over whether only the front rank had shields, but if so the assumption is they had no spears, or whether all rows carried spear and shield.
I'm firmly in the latter camp.
We know there were commanders of 10 (ugala 10) and commanders of 60 (ugala 60) and that units are multiples of 60. I think the Stele of the Vultures shows one such unit. 10 wide, six ranks deep. I believe the six disks on the shields are six bosses on six ranks of shields, each shield having one boss. I assume they were used in much the same way as Mycenaean tower and figure-of-eight shields using a broad strap (telamon) to take the weight and using changes in posture to position the shield.
It would suggest that in each rank there would be an ugala 10. Ugala is often translated as lieutenant but I think corporal would be more accurate for the ugala 10. The ugala 60 would command the whole group equating to a sergeant perhaps. Above the ugalas are the nu banda who are nominally responsible for up to 600 men, these would be captains. In charge of the whole army is the sagina who is the commanding general.
I use the shielded miniatures I have to represent the aga ush, the more permanent troops, and unshielded to represent the erin, the conscripts seconded to the army from the annual levée en masse which also provide men to maintain the irrigation channels, the roads and the like. I have absolutely no evidence for this but it does make it easy to tell which troops are which!
I look forward to seeing more of what you do.
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The yoke on the battle car looks fine to me. Given the height, or lack thereof, of the bottom of the cart and the height of an onager's shoulders you'd think there must have been a decent sized bend but there's no obvious way the onagers were connected in any of the depictions I'm aware of, so your interpretation is as good as any!
I know it may sound strange, but these little details bother me. It’s part of the joy of playing historical stuff to read along while I paint and try to make a thing out of the sources. Now I just need suitable rein-rings to be fully satisfied!
There is some debate over whether only the front rank had shields, but if so the assumption is they had no spears, or whether all rows carried spear and shield.
I'm firmly in the latter camp.
We know there were commanders of 10 (ugala 10) and commanders of 60 (ugala 60) and that units are multiples of 60. I think the Stele of the Vultures shows one such unit. 10 wide, six ranks deep. I believe the six disks on the shields are six bosses on six ranks of shields, each shield having one boss. I assume they were used in much the same way as Mycenaean tower and figure-of-eight shields using a broad strap (telamon) to take the weight and using changes in posture to position the shield.
It would suggest that in each rank there would be an ugala 10. Ugala is often translated as lieutenant but I think corporal would be more accurate for the ugala 10. The ugala 60 would command the whole group equating to a sergeant perhaps. Above the ugalas are the nu banda who are nominally responsible for up to 600 men, these would be captains. In charge of the whole army is the sagina who is the commanding general.
That’s all pretty interesting. I stumbled upon the mixed unit theory, but either overread the idea that the first rank didn’t have shields or my mind ignored it. I do base shielded and unshielded models separately, so I can still play around. Using them for different qualities is a great idea!
Can you recommend a good book for all these organisational details?
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If you aren't already aware of them
https://sumer2sargon.blogspot.com/
and
https://sumerianshakespeare.com/2701.html
are good places to start, not just for military stuff but to get a sense of how Sumerian civilisation worked.
For a more military focus, Warlord Games have a series of excellent, short articles covering the Sumerians, Akkadians, Elamites, Zagros (and other) Highlanders and the desert dwelling Martu/ Amurru/ Amorites
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-1-military-development/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-2-army-organisation/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-3-troop-types/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-4-battles/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-the-early-elamites/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-highland-tribes-of-the-zagros-mountains-gutians-and-lullubi/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-early-desert-nomads/
Depending on your level of interest that will either get you started or tell you more than you ever wanted to know! :)
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If you aren't already aware of them
https://sumer2sargon.blogspot.com/
and
https://sumerianshakespeare.com/2701.html
are good places to start, not just for military stuff but to get a sense of how Sumerian civilisation worked.
For a more military focus, Warlord Games have a series of excellent, short articles covering the Sumerians, Akkadians, Elamites, Zagros (and other) Highlanders and the desert dwelling Martu/ Amurru/ Amorites
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-1-military-development/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-2-army-organisation/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-3-troop-types/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-sumerian-akkadian-warfare-part-4-battles/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-the-early-elamites/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-highland-tribes-of-the-zagros-mountains-gutians-and-lullubi/
https://www.warlordgames.com/history-early-desert-nomads/
Depending on your level of interest that will either get you started or tell you more than you ever wanted to know! :)
Thank you so much. I hadn’t known about these! The article series was written by good ol‘ Nigel Stillman himself. I‘ll have a look and will let you know my thoughts — meanwhile I got hold of a copy of this volume:
https://www.amazon.de/Warfare-Ancient-Near-East-1600/dp/0415255899/ref=sr_1_1?__mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&crid=2G1UI7BQJO348&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.qV2OHruetLHt2q7DPTESNGwNvPmIJX4zC97airT0UWyC-b3PC5UeiUfqQPWjVQyS_EFf0xDFh3aVEv7Oyatu2oDSyuXFKQzZwxmEsgVVThkB3wAGxJTHe0jR5mMK7b3WZA3ksQBcIu0U22PN_VRZVu3AgE7uMC5cT9Ed4oE7idQxI9s1c5lvxlXzKbPkEU2WU8exlghgo8OY6lgRFUweWV8rMOxnhRXoTJLe75ED284.icf-UayApbCSsmj7q44davQG3lyQFC9TFpI4CpZ4q1A&dib_tag=se&keywords=Warfare+near+east&qid=1718167191&sprefix=warfare+near+east%2Caps%2C144&sr=8-1
I had hoped for good pictures and thus bought the softcover version, but from a first flipping through the pages I can say that the cheaper ebook will work fine, too. Haven’t read much yet, so I don’t have a real opinion, yet.
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“Ass-chariot”
That’s what I’m going to call my wheelchair from now on!!! Lol
Dan
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“Ass-chariot”
That’s what I’m going to call my wheelchair from now on!!! Lol
Dan
Lol! Great idea, Dan.
It was however Von Akers‘s idea (s. p. 1 of this thread).