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Other Stuff => General Wargames and Hobby Discussion => Topic started by: Pijlie on January 06, 2025, 12:57:07 PM

Title: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: Pijlie on January 06, 2025, 12:57:07 PM

 As if the Miniature Wargaming hobby wasn't complicated enough with all those periods and rule sets, there's also the discussion about scale. Or is it the size? In any case, there's a lot of discussion going on.

Your gaming table usually determines the size of your figures. The more figures you want on the table, the smaller they generally have to be.

(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhVErgHI6ACsxX4ghGHjXcjeZRDAVs4b60zdo9hHYiqyqCI2UGDfEfU3gI4otq_80DA7qkPfId45pbWWzSi8MktVfy2ggiKL93W7pZRIJp99qU6hgTLjndv7pC8gjY5DLMo3-q4tC42zvfjYFqWy5Gf9wbtOC67VUeeVLRiSDPszH1H44gBnQSk7EOmZMM/w480-h640/20241010_113607.jpg)

Model (railway) builders have scales. The most common model railway scales are 1:76 (OO), 1:48 (N) and 1:87 (HO). Model builders mainly go for 1:72 and 1:35. How easy life would be if wargamers had chosen the same route. But no. They didn't.

Do you want to know more? Read here: https://pijlieblog.blogspot.com/2025/01/measure-twice-buy-once-scales-and-sizes.html (https://pijlieblog.blogspot.com/2025/01/measure-twice-buy-once-scales-and-sizes.html)

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: Ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2025, 10:38:27 PM

Quote from: Pijlie on January 06, 2025, 12:57:07 PM

The most common model railway scales are 1:76 (OO), 1:48 (N) and 1:87 (HO). Model builders mainly go for 1:72 and 1:35. How easy life would be if wargamers had chosen the same route. But no.

N Gauge is 1/148, except where it is 1/160 (N Scale) or 1/150 (Japan).
1/76 (4mm to the foot) can be 00 (16.5mm gauge), EM (18mm gauge) or Protofour (18.83mm gauge).

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: AndrewBeasley on January 07, 2025, 01:37:36 AM

Quote from: Pijlie on January 06, 2025, 12:57:07 PM

...
Model (railway) builders have scales. The most common model railway scales are 1:76 (OO), 1:48 (N) and 1:87 (HO). Model builders mainly go for 1:72 and 1:35. How easy life would be if wargamers had chosen the same route. But no. They didn't.
...

I've been battling (sorry) with this for so many years that I do not care anymore - do they look right on the table is my number one selection and I carry a figure or two with me to the shows and check how things look.

Do not talk to me about train scales - these do not match gauge across the world - HO has five variants in the National Model Railroad Association list and N has three. They're as bad as we are :-) N is both 8.97mm and 9mm depending on where you are! At least my favourite size (T) only comes in one version!


Figure sizes / scales are worse than most beginners think as gamers often quote size as a scale (e.g. 28mm scale figures) and there has never been a standard way to measure the height of the figure. Over the years I've seen (and I'm sure there are more):

• Bottom of foot to top of bare head
• Bottom of foot to top of head but they have a hat on and it's way out in any case
• Bottom of foot to eye level
• The above but the sample figure is bent over (or better yet mounted or kneeling)
• Bottom of base to bare head
• Bottom of base to eye level
• A guesstimate with a measure in the rough area and at an angle
• A guesstimate with a measure next to the figure but enough flash on the base to add 1-2mm and the gauge level with the flash
• A measure where the data points where in inches but the figure sold as mm
• A gauge in cm but only whole cm
• Very nice pictures with a scale somewhere on the page and not in line with the figures
• Very nice different sized pictures spread all over the page but no idea as to the 'life size' one
• Figures cast by two companies listed with different sizes (BUT they are the same figures)
• Give up with anything and just call it 'Travel Battle' or 'Epic' sized
• The same term (not a measurement) used for different sized figures
• Same reseller 'lumping' figure under 28mm or 15mm from different manufactures and them being very different in size
• One supplier listing a range of sizes for a collection of figures BUT no clue as to which are what size
• A couple of manufactures 're-releasing' figures of the same name / catalogue number but significantly different in size (both fantasy as it happens)
• Adverts saying one thing and the web site saying another (and an apology for the error BUT no explanation as to which was wrong at first).

That's before you get into the issue of scale creep (GW space marines being the classic often quoted one) across different ranges from the same manufacture (often over time or different sculptures), issues with clothing and pose and a basic lack of anatomy skills in some ranges! Fantasy / Sci-Fi folk have it worse - just how big is an orc or alien creature and will those figures from abc look daft to my squirrels from xyz*?

As long as there are different manufactures then size / scales / build / naming will be a pain and posts along the lines of 'can someone show me pics of abc next to xyz please' will continue.



* This is a problem I actually have at the moment - I need some humans to fight squirrels (from Splintered Light) but they are described as 20mm BUT is that to tail tip or eye?

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: Pijlie on January 07, 2025, 05:00:30 AM

Quote from: Ultravanillasmurf on January 06, 2025, 10:38:27 PM

N Gauge is 1/148, except where it is 1/160 (N Scale) or 1/150 (Japan).
1/76 (4mm to the foot) can be 00 (16.5mm gauge), EM (18mm gauge) or Protofour (18.83mm gauge).

Thx for pointing out the typo :)

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: Moriarty on January 07, 2025, 06:32:18 AM

And then, of course, people tend to be different sizes anyway! Oh! The humanity!

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: carlos marighela on January 07, 2025, 08:14:21 AM

Of course O scale is always 1/48, except when it's 1/43.5.

Thank God for the model kit companies whose religious adherence to scale is exacting..... except for when it isn't and 1/48 turns out to be 1/47, 1/49, 1/50 or even 1/64. This versitility in scaling is best appreciated when a single kit contains parts of different scales, like the Hawker Hunter I bought that contains a 1/72 cockpit interior in a nominally 1/48 kit.

At least the makers of diecast toy cars don't dissapoint. Not only do they provide a further wealth of scales, 1/76, 1/64, 1/43 etc, etc but the exacting standards of manufacture means that you can always trust the scale it purports to be.  ;)

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: zemjw on January 07, 2025, 09:19:21 AM

Don't forget that most amusing of scales - scaled to the box

As others have mentioned, I now use "do these look okay next to each other" as my main guide.

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: boneio on January 07, 2025, 10:22:19 AM

Even in model railways, which in theory is scale modelling as opposed to our far more 'representative' wargame measurements, only the more niche scales are actually to-scale  o_o

N gauge (as we commonly refer to it in the UK) is not 'correctly' scaled at track gauge, rail height and width...

From Wikipedia:

Quote

The term N gauge refers to the track dimensions, but in the United Kingdom in particular British N gauge refers to a 1:148 scale with 1:160 (9 mm or 0.354 in) track gauge modelling

.

And let's not get started on ground scale vs figure scale... even fairly short ranged weapons like bows should, on most nominally 28mm wargames tables, have a range that exceeds the board. Artillery would be in the neighbour's house or further still...!

Title: Re: Measure twice, buy once: scales and sizes in wargames
Post by: 2010sunburst on January 07, 2025, 11:58:57 AM

Wow…..big tin of worms here…….
For my hand grenade I’ll just say that OO, N, TT etc are not scales, they are gauges ….. just like 10mm, 15mm, 25mm, 28mm etc are not scales they are nominal figure heights. The wiki page on narrow gauge railway scale and gauge combinations has this wrong….quoting things like the OO scale……this stuff used to irritate me, now it just makes me laugh, just like “accurate” and “scale effect” colour. 

Unless you are building a diorama, go with what looks right is right and you can’t go far wrong.  After all, we are only using figures, buildings etc as gaming pieces, not as dead accurate representations of the battlefield.