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Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: Fjodin on December 14, 2009, 10:33:45 AM

Title: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on December 14, 2009, 10:33:45 AM
I want to paint one of my 15mm Irregular Prussian Infantry Officer as Otto von Bismarck! I just like to know EXACT colour of his uniform. I found this 2 pic of him wearing different uniforms:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Wernerprokla.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3161/2924517999_e60301fe7c.jpg)

And does somebody know where to find 15mm Great Dane dog? (I own GREATLY sculped Irregular Miniatures Labrador dog, but it does not look like Bismarck dog :) (Actually its Sir Harry dog))?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/BismarckDogs.jpg)
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Dr. The Viking on December 14, 2009, 11:21:01 AM
Hmm I can't help you there, but I would also like to know where a great dane in 28mm could be found?

Instead of making a new topic I might as well ask here.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Argonor on December 14, 2009, 11:53:07 AM
Is 'Buster' a Great Dane?

http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=27&subcat_id=63
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: aircav on December 14, 2009, 12:01:25 PM
Hmm I can't help you there, but I would also like to know where a great dane in 28mm could be found?

Instead of making a new topic I might as well ask here.

Scarab do Moritz in the Red Baron set, pictured here with a copplestone officer:

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p176/aircav_album/Gaffer-1.jpg)

Keith
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Dr. The Viking on December 14, 2009, 12:11:44 PM
Is 'Buster' a Great Dane?

http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/range.php?range_id=27&subcat_id=63


Yuck those HF beasts are excessively expensive! But nice though.

Sorry about the thread-jack >Fjodin.

I'm actually thinking that at 15mm scale you might go with ancient German or Celtic dogs? I don't think they will be that different?
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on December 14, 2009, 12:26:06 PM
here my approach:

the first one is the iconic propaganda painting of the founding of the German Empire.
As to my knowledge, (apart from the freedom given to generals in uniform), white was only worn by the "garde du corps" cuirassier regiments (seen at the left). In the context of the painting, it is used at the same time to underline his loyalty to the emperor (notice the cuirassier boots an old man surely would not have worn) and to visually single him out among all others. Notice the emperor and his son, who although singled out by their position, in terms of contrast and colour melt into the others. Also notice that among the ones who are below the emperor, Bismarck is the only one who does not hail or look at the emperor.
Also his head is in the exact point of the vertical and horizontal golden ratio.

The second one is from a movie and sports the regular blue of the prussian army.

I personally would go with the latter if You want to be realistic.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: argsilverson on December 14, 2009, 02:01:40 PM
here my approach:

the first one is the iconic propaganda painting of the founding of the German Empire.
As to my knowledge, (apart from the freedom given to generals in uniform), white was only worn by the "garde du corps" cuirassier regiments (seen at the left). In the context of the painting, it is used at the same time to underline his loyalty to the emperor (notice the cuirassier boots an old man surely would not have worn) and to visually single him out among all others. Notice the emperor and his son, who although singled out by their position, in terms of contrast and colour melt into the others. Also notice that among the ones who are below the emperor, Bismarck is the only one who does not hail or look at the emperor.
Also his head is in the exact point of the vertical and horizontal golden ratio.

The second one is from a movie and sports the regular blue of the prussian army.

I personally would go with the latter if You want to be realistic.



former user has stated very clearly the matter, so, I can only second this  opinion.
I remember that usually Bismarck is depicted in a dark coloured uniform, so prussian army blue is a must. and I cannot fancy him in cuirassier uniform.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: elThyge on December 14, 2009, 02:36:30 PM
There are some pictures here at the german wikipedia:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

They describe his uniform as Kürassier (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garde-K%C3%BCrassier-Regiment). In the last link they state the uniform colour as both white and dark blue.

After 1880 Bismarck often wore his uniform in public - even in parliament.

(http://www.lsg.musin.de/Geschichte/kaiserreich/Deutsches%20Reich/otto_v_bismarck.jpg)
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on December 14, 2009, 02:45:16 PM
here is Bismarck portrayed in the "Sedan Panorama", another propagandistic Oeuvre most certainly the majority of germans of the time have seen
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QSV8hW-NBww/SkSlSqT7GnI/AAAAAAAACSg/woVXzrpUFTE/s1600/Anton+von+Werner+-+Bismarcks+Zusammentreffen+mit+Napoleon+%282.+September+1870,+6+Uhr%29+%281884%29+Diorama+-+%C3%96l+auf+Leinwand+%28380+x+600+cm%29.JPG)
where he receives the surrender of Napoleon III - this is not a photograph!

and again an impression of the same event
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/BismarckundNapoleonIII.jpg)

and again negotiating the french surrender, horizontal center, vertical golden ratio, sitting at the table in front of Moltke standing
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/Sedan870.jpg)
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on December 14, 2009, 03:08:35 PM
After 1880 Bismarck often wore his uniform in public - even in parliament.

if I may be more precise:
it says he occasionally wore the Cuirassier Uniform, after his honorific promotion 1880.
Bismarck served as "Jäger"

we have to keep in mind that many paintings show events retrospectively - the victors tell the history...
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Chairface on December 14, 2009, 03:19:49 PM
I would guess that Dark Prussian blue from Vallejo would suffice
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: elThyge on December 14, 2009, 03:32:38 PM
if I may be more precise:
it says he occasionally wore the Cuirassier Uniform, after his honorific promotion 1880.
Bismarck served as "Jäger"

we have to keep in mind that many paintings show events retrospectively - the victors tell the history...

Yep, was a little hasty.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Plynkes on December 14, 2009, 03:38:50 PM
The picture in the original post of the founding of Imperial Germany ought to have the title "There Goes the Neighbourhood."  lol lol


(I'm sorry, I'm only joking, my dear German pals. Please don't be angry.)
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on December 14, 2009, 03:44:51 PM
we are not angry
the neighbourhood actually went when Bismarck was made chancellor and Wilhelm I did not abdicate in favour of his son, Frederick III - one might argue....
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on December 14, 2009, 09:37:04 PM
Thanx! I think I'll paint him in exactrly like here:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3161/2924517999_e60301fe7c.jpg)
(http://www.lsg.musin.de/Geschichte/kaiserreich/Deutsches%20Reich/otto_v_bismarck.jpg)

Maybe if he would visit the real battle, he wear different uniform, but in real lifer he was never in battle, so its only VSF. For example some wargamers use Queen Victoria in their battles.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on December 14, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
well, noone of his rank would be actually "in battle", but in 1871 he had his own staff and participated
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/30/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-R09517%2C_Deutsch-franz%C3%B6sischer_Krieg%2C_Hauptquartier_Versailles.jpg)
if only by interferring with military decisions
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on January 12, 2010, 07:17:06 AM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3161/2924517999_e60301fe7c.jpg)
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/83438/hr/340365051/name/bi.jpg)
I've done him! 15mm Otto von Bismarck. Actualy its repainted Irregular Miniatures 15mm Prussian Artillery officer
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on January 12, 2010, 08:26:09 AM
paintjob looks good

Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Gluteus Maximus on January 12, 2010, 10:10:45 AM
well, noone of his rank would be actually "in battle", but in 1871 he had his own staff and participated
if only by interferring with military decisions

Historically true maybe, but for VSF/Alternative History scenarios why not?

After all Napoleon didn't object to getting stuck in, so why not Bismark ;)

Then again, as a politician he may be best suited to ruining the Armies decisions  lol

Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on January 12, 2010, 10:28:43 AM
what his interference actually did as I read
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on January 12, 2010, 10:09:02 PM
paintjob looks good

But now i realise, that I should use more blueish paint... :(
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on January 13, 2010, 08:58:47 AM
well, if You want to add something anyway, maybe You should put a spike on the helmet - artillery helmet and cavalry uniform don't really fit together
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on January 13, 2010, 10:37:12 PM
But its already have a silver spike like onj the picture.
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on January 13, 2010, 10:58:00 PM
OK, the picture is very small - but if it is an artillery officer he is bound to have a ball on the helmet, not a spike
but never mind it's 15mm anyway
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: Fjodin on January 14, 2010, 10:36:22 PM
I understand what you mean. I think because of small scale, Irrgegulars used the same helmet for artillery crew and infantry
Title: Re: Otto von Bismarck - uniform colour?!
Post by: former user on January 14, 2010, 11:16:57 PM
infantry with ball could be some south german state if I correctly recall it, or inaccurate russians