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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Hobgoblin on 16 September 2025, 10:05:44 PM
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I've been drawn back into smaller scales by the prospect of gaming in the office (a post-work session of SOBH was a blast yesterday). I've been painting up some 15mm Hordes of the Things armies, which has been great fun and is (slowly!) eating up the vast mound of 15mm stuff I've acquired over the years.
Anyway, the 15mm excursion has also led me to a box of 10mm treasures, including a few original Warmaster figures - enough for a full regiment of orcs and one of boar riders. Gibby very kindly sent me the Warmaster rules a few years back, and I've decided to give them a go.
One 'synergy' with the 15mm project could be ogres. I've got a few 40 x 20 bases of Battle Valor and Blood Dawn orcs on the go; they're nicely versatile figures that are big enough to use as goblins in 1/72 and even 28mm. But it occurred to me, too, that they're probably about the right size and stature to act as ogres in Warmaster or Warmaster Revolution. The chunky BV and BD wolf/boar riders fill out a 20/40 base quite comfortably, so three of them would work as a regiment of rhinox riders, I think.
But looking at pictures of Warmaster ogres online, I'm curious about their size and how many fit onto a 40 x 20 base. From what I can see, they seem to often be based in fours (rather oddly, with the second rank right behind the first). That suggests that they're actually smaller than the BV/BD orcs; I can get just get three BV orcs onto a base, and sometimes only two of the BD ones.
I know the number of figures on the base doesn't matter, and I think the BD/BV orcs will look the part - but I'm just curious to know how the original Warmaster ogres were meant to be deployed and quite what size they are. And was the 2 x 2 basing standard?
Any pointers much appreciated!
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I am also toying with the prospect of using Citadels original Grom (he of the Goblin Guard) as an ogre tyrant/general. After all, he was supposed to look like a "particularly ugly ogre". He might just be too big, though!
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I have some in my lead mountain (somewhere? - I think I know where they are) I’ll try and dig them out tomorrow, I think they’re probably still in the blister but I’ll happily break them out for a good cause.
Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
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Ah - thanks very much! Would be very interested to get their actual dimensions - but don't dent their resale value or whatever on my account!
I see that the modern 3D-printed ones seem to be three to a base.
This evening, it also occurred to me that the Battle Valor ogres will make decent Warmaster giants (and I could use two of them side by side as 'great beasts' in 15mm DBF or 'brutes' in HOTT). I also have an old Asgard half-troll lined up as a giant for an orc army - one of the ones bent right over and roaring into the faces of 10mm opponents - perfect on a 20 x 40mm base!
I'm now racking my brains to think of 20-28mm goblins that might work as 10mm trolls; I'm sure I must have some somewhere!
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No worries! Whilst I do need to sell off a goodly portion of my hoard at some point soon, my warmaster stuff is all for me (to be cut up and individually based for minihammer) so there’s no problem there. I have some modern 3D printed 10mm ogres (they look like the current GW ones) and they easily fill a 20x20mm (representing 40mm square in bighammer terms) base each.
Have you considered old snotlings as trolls in 10mm. They work quite well and there were loads of designs so you can pick and choose without much repetition. I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…
Just seen this image from my stalled blog which has an ogre on a 20mm square old epic base if that’s any use to start with…
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiICs2ZULiy9mCtH8ekVwgyrLMxyLnsaSgpX3Xakhd4gGt_zMtm0yeGA1HT0T_loBNlIHvFvkj7n8FX5581BC-b5OAQJdi6uj3gxXoTSHXz5SRBIBHxaHHl1i_yTDsqVjp7KC-Hb-MmmfOK/s1600/IMG_5977_2.JPG)
Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
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I'm now racking my brains to think of 20-28mm goblins that might work as 10mm trolls; I'm sure I must have some somewhere!
Got any old Citadel AD&D Norkers in your stash? They might fit your bill if you're after something in loin cloths with primitive weapons.
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The original GW Warmaster Ogres, do indeed fit 4 to a 40x20mm base. The figures don't have a lot of depth to them, to help them rank up. And they tend to be lined up behind each other due to the width of weapons.
(http://www.kerynne.com/games/images/WMOrc/100_4168.jpg)
Don't know why that image isn't working, its at the bottom of this page http://www.kerynne.com/games/WMOrc.html
Not a great picture of some of mine - ogres in the second row. You can see with the Trolls I went for 3 a base as they are more gangly. Most of the original WM figures really crammed figures onto bases - which gave a good dense look to units, but works less well with figures not designed to be ranked up like this.
As you say figure count per base doesn't matter in WM.
Do be aware that to play WM you really want some decent sized armies - which even in 10mm is a lot of painting.
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Thanks, all - that's very helpful!
It looks like the shallowness of the original figures is the key thing. The BV and BD orcs have a lot more depth and bulk, I think - maybe a better match for the modern 3D-printed ones. They share a chunkiness of weapon with the originals, though.
Snotlings and norkers are great suggestions for trolls - many thanks! I have some of both lurking in the lead pile - possibly enough for full units. The norkers would go two to a base (and work as some sort of ferocious warband or double up as great beasts in 15mm DBF, and I might just have six ...).
I've just been repainting the bases of some 10mm Copplestone trolls too (again, for use in 15mm): they go two to a base; I think they're probably more imposing that the original Warmaster ones - maybe quite a bit taller? And obviously very different in appearance - but as I'll be working on two or three armies that contain trolls (orcs, ogres and chaos), a bit of variety will be no bad thing.
I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…
That sounds amazing!
Do be aware that to play WM you really want some decent sized armies - which even in 10mm is a lot of painting.
Yes - I'm not envisaging getting a game in before the new year - or the Christmas holidays at the very earliest (though I do have a ton of days off to use up before then ...).
I'm thinking that the ogre army will entirely come 'free' as I paint up the 15mm HOTT stuff; I'm doing my 15mm orcs in a Tolkien-esque sallow skintone, so they should look the part as Warmaster ogres (I'll do the 10mm orcs in green).
I was initially thinking about just playing Warmaster in 15mm, basing cavalry individually on 40 x 20. But once I realised that my HOTT orcs would work as ogres, I thought it would be nice to have some properly tiny opponents for them. I've been really enjoying the batch painting in 15mm, so 10mm would be a natural extension of that (I've dabbled in the scale a little before).
The Blood Dawn orc boar riders look utterly massive in 10mm, so I think they'll be a good fit as ogre beast riders. And they can double up as 15mm beast units, as well as serving in 15mm skirmish. So there are some nice synergies.
I have some of the Copplestone 10mm orcs too; I'm thinking that they might make good old-school Old World hobgoblins: the fierce and frenzied ones rather than the sneaky, weedy ones - so 'counts as' orcs alongside their distant and green relations.
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I have a 10mm giant made from 40k catachan bits, some skaven legs and Greenstuff that I’m very proud of too…
Just seen that giant on your blog (itself a treasure trove of inspirational painting!): it's brilliant!
It's slightly disappointing that Warmaster armies seem to be limited to one giant each; I suppose you can either disregard the limits or field multiple armies on each side to get more on the table! There are lots of great options for giants in that scale.
I had a look at the beastman army list and am thinking about using the Demonworld 15mm beastman warbands I've been painting as minotaurs; I already have six bases of those ready to go. I think they're probably appropriately sized.
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It's slightly disappointing that Warmaster armies seem to be limited to one giant each; I suppose you can either disregard the limits or field multiple armies on each side to get more on the table! There are lots of great options for giants in that scale.
For most lists is one monster per 1000 points
And if you are playing amongst friends (and especially if you are doing both sides) then the limits can just be guidelines. Giants are very unpredictable in WM (which is a pretty unpredictable system anyway) so too many could be challenging for the owning General!
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For most lists is one monster per 1000 points
And if you are playing amongst friends (and especially if you are doing both sides) then the limits can just be guidelines. Giants are very unpredictable in WM (which is a pretty unpredictable system anyway) so too many could be challenging for the owning General!
Ah, OK - thanks! I was assuming that it was one per army. Re: your earlier comment on game size, how many points would you say is the minimum for a 'proper' game - i.e. one that brings out the full qualities of the system?
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On trolls: it's just occurred to me that some of the smaller Asgard orcs might make good 10mm trolls. I recall that Funghy-Fipps of this forum used some of them as 15mm trolls, and they looked pretty good. The smallest ones are really tiny, but they have the advantage of looking groundwards in many cases - as if towering over even smaller foes. And a few of them have stone clubs and the like.
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These are some of the BV orcs that I'm repurposing as (a) 40 x 20-based 15mm blades and (b) Warmaster ogres. I've started repainting the skin a more natural sallow tone. Although I had them four to a 40mm square before, they go three to a base on 40 x 20.
The figure on the right reminds me very much of a modern GW ogre - I think there's one in a very similar pose with a two-handed scimitar:
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiGq-ye3xU4VX0UqXyUXX3JvJpOQfsuXLRzt7n5zQausWS7kqb6hwx_n1oPKF4LFYe0WS61FfcP7b33TtldXBmzLaThc4VhfEk8sZUTWhZnKZ1q7Nkt4TuJgzztjqvNFfE2Wms2gAamdeXgz8dMTgWa3nUpw-QfXA7yfkh2HPx8q1-Lz7tfPJOleysK2F9k/s2485/15mm%20orcs.heic)
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Ah, OK - thanks! I was assuming that it was one per army. Re: your earlier comment on game size, how many points would you say is the minimum for a 'proper' game - i.e. one that brings out the full qualities of the system?
It's quite a while since I've played WM - but 1000 to 2000 pts is certainly a very playable size. The way the army lists unlock specialised units (at 1000 pt increments) means that a 1900 pt army and a 2000 pt army can be very different in composition as the 2k one unlocks double the fancy units!
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It's quite a while since I've played WM - but 1000 to 2000 pts is certainly a very playable size. The way the army lists unlock specialised units (at 1000 pt increments) means that a 1900 pt army and a 2000 pt army can be very different in composition as the 2k one unlocks double the fancy units!
Thanks! Right, so 2,000 is probably worth aiming for. I'll bear that in mind as I go. I was planning to get lots of the BV orcs based and painted for DBF, so that should give me quite a large foundation of ogre infantry (bulls/ironguts). The cavalry units should be the easy bit (three mounted figure each).
I'm seeing this a kind of easy, no-rush project, as most of the components will be usably in HOTT and DBF as I go - even the 10mm orc infantry stands can be combined into horde units for 15mm. That's especially true of Copplestone figures, which are quite chunky.
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A rummage in the lead pile revealed a couple of potential troll options: old Citadel lesser goblins (the 'great goblin' sort - maybe a bit small, even though they're 28mm?) and Caesar 1/72 goblins - a bit bigger and suitably mad looking, with rocks and stone clubs.
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So I now have a few troll options - and will probably use several of them to get a good variety of trolls of different sorts on the table:
Asgard orcs
The smaller ones will go three to a 40mm base and look suitably intimidating - and as if they're intimidating small foes, given their stooping posture! Configuring nine of them on three bases might be slightly tricky, but I won't be confined to just the very smallest: I got a menacing-looking trio on a 40 x 20 with this guy (the armoured black orc) in the centre:
(https://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/0/0d/Asgard-or31.jpg?20240710171242)
This tracker orc showcases the 'attacking tiny foes' aspect:
(https://www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/images/3/3b/Asgard-or6.jpg)
The other nice thing is that they'll make very ferocious-looking warband or blade elements in 15mm - and the elements can be used together to create suitably congested-looking 28mm hordes for To the Strongest and other such games (I've been meaning to try Impetus for ages, and it allows 40mm and 60mm frontages to be used together to create 120mm elements).
Caesar goblins
These guys have the zaniness - and the ears - of later GW trolls. They'll happily go three to a base, and they have some hefty stone hammers and rocks. They're not exactly ferocious-looking, but they're probably big enough to work as trolls (they're quite a bit bigger than snotlings):
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF105a.jpg)
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF105b.jpg)
Caesar orcs (the first box)
These could also work well, I think. The second box contains better sculpts, but they're also much more civilised-looking whereas these guys are goofy and primitive:
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF106a.jpg)
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF106b.jpg)
I also have the Caesar/Miniknight metal versions, which are even more primitive looking/more troll-like, with some big clubs and whatnot.
And along with those are the Copplestone trolls, with their Olog-hai vibe. The Caesar orcs are almost exactly the same size, but with their varied posture and lack of shields, they should be easier to fit three to a base for mass effect.
I also found some further ogre options in the 1/72 pile: Dark Alliance warg riders as further rhinox proxies (as the Blood Dawn/Magister Militia boar riders are out of production, sadly) and the second box of Caesar orcs as ogre personalities or different tribes of regular ogres. The Caesar figure are much easier to convert than most 1/72 figures, as they take superglue (and paint) well and can be cut and drilled with ease. So there's a fair bit of scope there.
Finally, I have some of the Pendraken (Harryhausen-style) troglodytes on order. I think they might work well as either trolls or ogre 'gorgers'.
And, of course, all of these elements will work as 15mm blades or warbands for HOTT, which should help the project along.
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Just seen that giant on your blog (itself a treasure trove of inspirational painting!): it's brilliant!
Thank you sir, too kind. I need to start posting again (even if only a handful of people ever looked at it!) as it was helpful in maintaining motivation when I can’t play anything. Haven’t checked in a while but had stalled as I only have an iPad and the blogger system wouldn’t let me see what I was typing until I published or looked at a preview (which was understandably quite hard going).
Back to topic: Apologies, had a couple of rough days and I haven’t been able to get to my ogres (I think I can see where they are lol - gives you an idea of why I call it my lead mountain!) but I think Fred has answered your question really. The official GW ogres are wide but quite shallow (you could probably do 5 in a conga line along a 20x40mm base - as long as they were friends and didn’t mind getting close :D ). I also have some printed ones in the style of the newer GW ogres and these are much chunkier and almost fill a 20x20mm base (where you could technically put two old ones on a 20x20mm - again without any social distancing! Maybe back to back?).
Just found this picture on CMoN which has four on a base
(https://www.coolminiornot.com/filestorage/images/o/b6d767d2f8ed5d21a44b0e5886680cb9/c45147dee729311ef5b5c3003946c48f.jpg?1688821299)
Those Asgard orcs are great, I agree with your comments about pose - I think they’ll look perfect based up, looming over the poor rank and file. I really like the Caesar minis (haven’t seen them before) especially the orcs, I would have loved adding them to my Airfix 1/72’s when little as they would have made my ACW skirmishes much more interesting! I really love the fact these will be used for multiple scales - so practical and sensible, wish I’d applied this idea to more of my projects.
Keep up the good work,
Andrew
BeneathALeadMountain
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Thank you sir, too kind. I need to start posting again (even if only a handful of people ever looked at it!) as it was helpful in maintaining motivation when I can’t play anything. Haven’t checked in a while but had stalled as I only have an iPad and the blogger system wouldn’t let me see what I was typing until I published or looked at a preview (which was understandably quite hard going).
Blogger's a pain, definitely. But it would be terrific to see more of your stuff - those 10mm stuff are just stunning!
Back to topic: Apologies, had a couple of rough days and I haven’t been able to get to my ogres (I think I can see where they are lol - gives you an idea of why I call it my lead mountain!) but I think Fred has answered your question really. The official GW ogres are wide but quite shallow (you could probably do 5 in a conga line along a 20x40mm base - as long as they were friends and didn’t mind getting close :D ). I also have some printed ones in the style of the newer GW ogres and these are much chunkier and almost fill a 20x20mm base (where you could technically put two old ones on a 20x20mm - again without any social distancing! Maybe back to back?).
Just found this picture on CMoN which has four on a base
(https://www.coolminiornot.com/filestorage/images/o/b6d767d2f8ed5d21a44b0e5886680cb9/c45147dee729311ef5b5c3003946c48f.jpg?1688821299)
Brilliant - thanks very much! Yes, those and Fred's post clear things up nicely. They are remarkably flat/shallow.
Those Asgard orcs are great, I agree with your comments about pose - I think they’ll look perfect based up, looming over the poor rank and file. I really like the Caesar minis (haven’t seen them before) especially the orcs, I would have loved adding them to my Airfix 1/72’s when little as they would have made my ACW skirmishes much more interesting! I really love the fact these will be used for multiple scales - so practical and sensible, wish I’d applied this idea to more of my projects.
Using miniatures in different scales is a bit of a preoccupation for me. I've got some Grenadier goblins on the desk at the moment, based as 15mm trolls ('great beasts') for DBF. They're quite a bit bigger and chunkier than the Asgard ones.
The newer Caesar orcs are really good - less good as trolls, but with lots of ogre potential in smaller scales and decent as small orcs in larger ones (as above, pictures from Plastic Soldier Review):
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF109a.jpg)
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF109b.jpg)
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF109c.jpg)
(https://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Features/CaesarFantasyF109d.jpg)
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Using miniatures in different scales is a bit of a preoccupation for me.
Really ;)
Can't say we'd noticed! Reading the above I'm quite lost on how many games you are planning to use the same figures for! Which is great efficiency
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Really ;)
Can't say we'd noticed! Reading the above I'm quite lost on how many games you are planning to use the same figures for! Which is great efficiency
Ha! ;)
I do like to hop between game systems quite a bit; when you have basing-agnostic games like To the Strongest and Of Armies and Hordes to fall back on, nothing's wasted!
Also, I'm increasingly looking for ways to use up huge chunks of the lead/plastic pile. I'm trying to banish any feelings of "Oh no, base those individually as they're such good minatures" and instead just get things based and painted for whatever use case presents itself. The Asgard orcs are a case in point here (and it helps that they're now readily available again rather than being precious rariities!).
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I started painting some original Warmaster orcs last night - just one strip, which I got about half-done.
On the efficiency front, I noted that they'd work perfectly well as HOTT/DBF hordes in 15mm: they're quite bulky and look about 4' tall or so next to 15mm figures - bang on for D&D goblins (or Tolkien's orcs, I'd imagine). The Copplestone orcs look the part in 15mm too - and it helps that two Warmaster bases will give a really credible mass effect - making the goblins very clearly 'hordes' rather than warband or anything else.
It's always a challenge to assemble enough hordes for Hordes of the Things, as they take much more effort than regular elements but cost only half as much in points. But every two units of Warmaster orcs will give me three HOTT hordes, so there's a nice double incentive to crack on with the little fellows there.
Putting the Copplestone orcs against the Warmaster ones, I thought the former really do look the part as 'proper' Citadel hobgoblins: ferocious Morrison/Lund sorts rather than the lesser breeds that followed!
I aslo received some of the Pendraken 10mm troglodytes yesterday: I think they'll be great as ogre "gorgers", as they're a great match size-wise for the Battle Valor orcs (my ogres) but savage and primitive-looking with horns.
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Interesting idea to use the Copplestone Orcs as hobgoblins - I've got piles of GW and Copplestone Orcs that I've never really got put together as an army - the link above is probably from 15 years ago, and not sure I've done more than a couple more units since then.
The Pendraken troglodytes would work well as ogre gorgers, they are slightly static poses though, but I do like them.
If you want variety to your Ogres then have a look at Blackgate - some lovely ogres and variants to cover the various 'sub-species'
Do you have the 10mm Copplstone Olag hai - they are designed to fit 4 to a 40x20mm base, but are quite different, more basic in their appearance.
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Interesting idea to use the Copplestone Orcs as hobgoblins - I've got piles of GW and Copplestone Orcs that I've never really got put together as an army - the link above is probably from 15 years ago, and not sure I've done more than a couple more units since then.
Yes, I think they should look the part - and old-school hobgoblins would definitely be identical to orcs stat-wise in Warmaster terms (S3, T4, etc., in Warhammer). I'll use the flat brown/orange brown/sunny flesh combo I'm using on the ogres/15mm orcs for those, which allow them to fit in as lesser, horde orcs in the 15mm games. There's something about the Copplestone orcs that makes them 'read' well in 15mm - maybe just the clarity of the sculpting.
If you want variety to your Ogres then have a look at Blackgate - some lovely ogres and variants to cover the various 'sub-species'
Thanks - that's a good call. They look quite similar size-wise to the Battle Valor orcs, judging by the comparison shot I've seen with a Blood Dawn orc; the latter was bulkier and squatter, which is petty much the same deal with BD vs BV. I might look at Blackgate for the leadbelchers in particular; the alternative would just be to use BV archers, which would be doable in a pinch but not quite right, given the rare 'shooting 2' score, short range and armour modifier (although ogre arrows would be massive ...).
Do you have the 10mm Copplstone Olag hai - they are designed to fit 4 to a 40x20mm base, but are quite different, more basic in their appearance.
Yes - I used to use them in a 15mm HOTT army, but I could only manage two to a base (https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=77384.msg1268121#msg1268121). I suppose they could just about squash up one behind the other - would look a bit cramped, probably - although I suppose that would be the same as the original Warmaster ogres.