Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Weird Wars => Topic started by: pixelgeek on 30 April 2007, 03:19:44 AM
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I am working on a ruleset for Weird WWII gaming and was curious if people thought it would be necessary (or just fun) to have stats and rules for walkers like the West Wind Panzer Mecha?
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It depends (don´t you just HATE that phrase?!?) :lol:
Seriously: If you want to have giant robots and their ilk, you have to trim the fluff/setting to fit it. Be consistent and DON´T try to "have everything". Of course, Nazi military research was... ahhh... eclectic and widespread, to say the least, so it would not be unreasonable to have the Heer work on PanzerMecha, while the Luftwaffe goes for "Jager X" super-Fallschirmjäger mutants.
For example, I don´t really see PanzerMecha fitting into Darkson´s "AEWW2", since this is more of a "genetic horror" setting, IMHO - somehow even the Buffalo looks a bit displaced, although being a nice miniature in itself.
On the other hand, I don´t think that stuff larger than the occasional Kröte, Jerry, and MAYBE the Elefant would look good in SF3D/MaK ZbV3000, simply because the "powered suit" element is so dominant.
A final point would be the intended scope of games - if you do something "indoor" like Warmacre´s "Hour of Glory", you´ll be hard-pressed to fit anything larger than, say, a GW Terminator in those dark dungeons.
I, for one, would certainly prefer a weird war ruleset that INCLUDED mecha rules over one that didn´t.
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Until someone starts making models that look like they were made in the 40s then no. I think walkers are just too Sci-Fi. I still haven't seen a "Weird War" walker that didn't look like something out of Star Wars merely painted in WWII camo.
I think they just don't fit. But I'm willing to change my mind if someone has the imagination to make a decent design. But even so walkers are still probably a step too far for me. I prefer the weird "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" planes if I was going to do Super-Science Nazis. And there are plenty of those that are perfectly historical, you don't even have to make them up. I'd like stuff that is more grounded in the period, or perhaps that looks how 40s Science Fiction artists might have imagined it.
Respraying Battletech mechs just doesn't do it for me.
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I'm all for walkers and giant robots, the West Wind ones are great, if a bit too big for most games. From your playtests it looks like you have zombies and rocketmen already, so mecha aren't a big leap from there.
It's best if you are writing a set of generic weird war rules to include everything and let people decide which parts to use.
Whilst all games are improved by including more zombies, many are improved by including giant robots. :)
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I'm not sure if walkers need to be mentioned in particular. Sure, they have legs, but in the end they're just vehicles. People sit in them and drive around, that's it.
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Funny you should mention that, but it's exactly how we use our Panzermecha at the moment, just using the rules for a medium tank.
But it's nice to be inclusive of as much weirdness as possible. :)
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Until someone starts making models that look like they were made in the 40s then no. I think walkers are just too Sci-Fi. I still haven't seen a "Weird War" walker that didn't look like something out of Star Wars merely painted in WWII camo.
I think they just don't fit. But I'm willing to change my mind if someone has the imagination to make a decent design. But even so walkers are still probably a step too far for me. I prefer the weird "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" planes if I was going to do Super-Science Nazis. And there are plenty of those that are perfectly historical, you don't even have to make them up. I'd like stuff that is more grounded in the period, or perhaps that looks how 40s Science Fiction artists might have imagined it.
Respraying Battletech mechs just doesn't do it for me.
Totally agree old chap...
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Thanks for the comments
Like most of the troops there never was any intention of making them mandatory in any sense.
I have two issues:
1) It appears that there is only a single source for them. I don't know that anyone other than West Wind makes them. I happen to like them but it means that gamers won't have an option for them if they don't
2) They are quite powerful and potentially unbalancing in a game
#2 is the most critical really.
One alternative that I am looking at is adding them as a supplement after the initial rules and stats are released. Put all of the rules and stats for Walkers in a single book and then if people want them they are available.
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Interesting points, although I think that it is rather easy to plausibly cut mecha down to useable strengths - it always depends on the system, though.
If you want it to be a "doomsday device", IE the latest indefatigable construction of the mad scientist Dr. Krankenstein, that´s difficult. But if you want to depict them as actual military vehicles (albeit, most probably, in small numbers), you can justifiably limit them.
Let me explain what I did for my Panzer Mecha. I use Warhammer Panzer Battles, which has the advantage that you can actually design vehicles rather easily if you use a modicum of common sense.
First, I wanted mobility, and mobility which is different from the normal run of vehicles. So I used the walker rules (6" move, which is infantry pace, and cannot be bogged down in rough terrain) as a basis.
Next, I followed the lead given by the interesting original WW2 fluff for the SharKit walkers, which are Fire Support vehicles with high mobility in rough terrain; thus, I chose armour which was "bullet-proof" against small arms (Armour 10 in WPB environment). A .50cal can actually damage it, and dedicated antitank weapons make short work of it, but I think that this is the sensible thing, because anything heavier than that level of armour (some 20-40mm steel) would be implausible for my taste - the thing simply does not look like a tank, rather like an armoured car on legs.
Weapons are rather easy, a 50mm pak and a 15cm Nebelwerfer.
And we´re done. No close combat ability apart from the stompy legs makes it rather easy to construct. I summed up the points using the nearest equivalents from the VDR and came to about 130 points, which is fair deal - a Panzer IV costs some 160 points, is better armed and armoured, but less flexible in rough terrain.
On the model issue, I wouldn´t want to restrict players to a single manufacturer - I still think that the WW SotTR are the best-looking WW2 mecha currently arround, but you could convert others, like Gundam kits et al, or scratch larger ones.
Generally, I´d suggest building a "kit" system that allows you to construct AT, FS and AI variants, maybe on a standard chassis. Makes it easier to balance things.
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I have some test stats that are waiting on me to rebase the West Wind Panzer mecha onto a base.
My current hope is to have good stats that can be balanced in such a way that players are able to field a walker and not require their opponent to do so.
There will be some CC attacks as the US "Sarge" walker has a fist attack... although I had plans to remove that on my model and mount the AT gun on the ball joint where the hand goes.
The SharKit walkers you mention... are these from a plastic kit?
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The SharKit walkers you mention... are these from a plastic kit?
SharKit offers a range of "limited-run" (but good quality!) kits which were originally for a AWW2 setting, but are now re-marketed for his own S&F "retro" setting, "Alterra 1".
Have a look at the catalogue page:
http://renax.club.fr/sharkit/alterraserie/alterraserie.htm
Both the 1:35th scale walker and the 1/72nd one could be used for 25/28mm, although the latter would be a very light model or "Roboterkämpfer" (and is NOT really compatible, style-wise, with the West Wind stuff), which is why I painted it in a "Hinterhalt" camo scheme to go with my 20mm stuff instead, or as a "hard WW2SF prototype", rather than my "Pulp Panzergrey German" SotTR mech:
(http://www.dminis.com/images/img.1168465895844.jpg)
(http://www.dminis.com/images/img.1168724445074.jpg)
(http://www.dminis.com/images/img.1168551307508.jpg)
(http://www.dminis.com/images/img.1172599525512.jpg)[/img]
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Interesting stuff. Pity about the scale though
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I am definately for walkers in a weird WW2 game setting!
If you play a flexible system like Supersystem or any other Goalsystem game they are not unbalancing IMO.
For all other games just treat them like a suitable vehicle (SdKfz 250 or so) and play along.
The best looking WW2 Wlakers are IMO the Gear Krieg designs of DP9.
See them at my site: http://www.agisn.de/html/dp9_stuff.html
I even tried to scratch build one in 28mm:
(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/GK_Walker_Walkuere_3sm.jpg)
and
(http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/GK_Walker_Walkuere_Scenic_5sm.jpg)
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The best looking WW2 Wlakers are IMO the Gear Krieg designs of DP9.
See them at my site: http://www.agisn.de/html/dp9_stuff.html
I even tried to scratch build one in 28mm
They are very nice designs and its a pity they don't make them in 28mm scale.
I am attempting to build the game with models that are commercially available so that gamers don't need to scratch build any units unless they want to.
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Until someone starts making models that look like they were made in the 40s then no
I agree - and I think that we've captured the look - for something that looks like a product of its time - and not some Manga hybrid - have a look at the British Walker here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JimbowensDisturbia/spnew/view/d977?i=478
There are more to follow!
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You can't access it without joining the group. Is the photo available somewhere else?
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I am all for walkers. Weird War II wouldn't be Weird War II without superscience vehicles! In my rules (a plug-in for the NUTS! rules system) I included walkers and they are a lot of fun playing with. At one point, three squads of Soviet soldiers had to take out a German light walker thanks to the random generation rules in NUTS! Although almost half of the Soviets were gunned down, the heroic Red Army finally blew it up with a grenade and gunned down the crew! It was awesome!
Here is a link to my rules if you need some inspiration:
http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/content/articles/WeirdWorldWarII.pdf
Here are some pics of my 28mm walkers (which were inspired by DP9 and Agis' 28mm walker):
(http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/images/armies/gk/g27_WIP2.jpg)
(http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/images/armies/gk/g27_front.jpg)
(http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/images/armies/gk/loki_WIP.jpg)
(http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/images/armies/wierdWehrmacht/wehrmachtWalkerLeft.jpg)
I look forward to see what you come up with!
n.
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I am all for walkers. Weird War II wouldn't be Weird War II without superscience vehicles! In my rules (a plug-in for the NUTS! rules system) I included walkers and they are a lot of fun playing with. At one point, three squads of Soviet soldiers had to take out a German light walker thanks to the random generation rules in NUTS! Although almost half of the Soviets were gunned down, the heroic Red Army finally blew it up with a grenade and gunned down the crew! It was awesome!
Here is a link to my rules if you need some inspiration:
http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/content/articles/WeirdWorldWarII.pdf
Here are some pics of my 28mm walkers (which were inspired by DP9 and Agis' 28mm walker):
snip
I look forward to see what you come up with!
n.
Whoahh, both walkers look very nice :love: , I have to do anther one for my late war Germans...
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The cover in your ruleset is really inspiring!! Well done!
I'll have a read this weekend
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Very fun cover! If you still have the original scan email it to me and I'll see if I can correct the colour and perhaps remove the UPC code for you.
BTW what mini is that on page 17?
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Hey,
Those weird war rules were fun to put together :) Hey KeyanSark, if oyu would like the NUTS! rules so that those weird war rules make sense, PM me your email and I will email them to you. I have a PDF copy of those rules.
Page 17 has an old Warzone Bahaus Hussar (or something like that) on it. That is what you are talking about right? They make great German Power Armour Troops, especially when you take the time to sculpt helmets:
(http://www.blackbirdmedia.org/miniatures/images/armies/wierdWehrmacht/armouredAndNormal.jpg)
As for the cover, I don't have the original image, but thanks for the offer!
n.
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Not entirely sure about some of the designs.
They look great, but somehow don't seem 1940s. I'm not sure what they should look like though.
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Nah, they don't do it for me. Games Workshop Space Marines with Jerry helmets on is what I see. Far-future Sci-fi, ham-fistedly dove-tailed with WWII soldiers seems to sum up this genre in my eyes so far.
Nothing I have seen yet seems of the period.
Maybe this whole "Weird War Two" thing just ain't for me.
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Nah, they don't do it for me. Games Workshop Space Marines with Jerry helmets on is what I see. Far-future Sci-fi, ham-fistedly dove-tailed with WWII soldiers seems to sum up this genre in my eyes so far.
Nothing I have seen yet seems of the period.
Then you won't like my little invention either... :wink:
(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4005/krtruppenpainted1bk0.jpg)
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Actually, I like it quite a lot. It's a great design. It's just I wouldn't use it myself in a game set in the 40s.
I think I would want it to be a far-future setting where the imagery mirrors that of the time of the Nazis, rather than actually set in that time. Maybe the distinction is slight, but that's how I feel.
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The only old robot design I'm familiar with is the female one from Metropolis, but that looks more like C3P0 than a military design.
After that it's Robbie the Robot from Forbidden Planet, but again it's not exactly a military design.
Has anyone got a decent bit of sourcework ?
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This is getting a bit off topic, but I found these pics from the 1920s story R.U.R. where robots take over the world:
(http://jerz.setonhill.edu/images/RUR/London.gif)
And here is a link to some androids from the past:
http://thenonist.com/index.php/weblog/permalink/more_historical_automata/
n.
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Just a few thoughts purely representing my own views:
How about a different take on walkers? Even with today's technology we can't produce them, so why not look at what could be done in the 1940s, plus the style of Pulp SF at that time.
Firstly how about making all small and medium scale vehicles remote control? The Germans pioneered cable and radio control and were even researching the use of cameras to help guided missiles. This would give you control ranges and the risk of losing the control vehicle/station/aircraft.
For the biggest walkers make them manned and deal with the crew like either an aircraft or ships crew - control room/bridge, weapons operators, radar operator, comms room etc.
As for styles, it seems transformers/Battle Tech do have an undue influence on the figures available. Looking back to the 30s and 40s most robot arms and legs looked like flexible metal hose (see Crash Corrigan etc) with pincers for hands. For a more "modern" feel, you could go for lots of hydralic pistons, gears etc. I would also steer away from veloceraptor stylee legs.
For larger walkers why not have aircraft style glazed turrets for weapons stations, or panzer like ball mounts with a vision slot. Also think big, brutal and industrial rather than delicate. New technologies tend to be large and functional.