Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: Christian on January 31, 2010, 06:25:58 AM
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So, I was thinking about VBCW and and I like it. I might even want to get involved in the action. I'm still not totally clear on the storyline, but that'll be up to me to read.
However, if the Motherland was in the throes of a civil war, this could be disastrous for other countries in the Commonwealth... right?
So I'm thinking if there would have been any support from, say, Australia in the VBCW scenario? Maybe some ex-pats or some volunteer units?
Another thing... and this is what I'm not too clear about either... how this relates to the Spanish Civil War? To what extent can Spanish units be involved?
Or is this all a little too far away from the action?
Hope to find out more about this intriguing setting.
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Sure, why not? I'd have no problem including either in the VBCW. The South Kensington (Piss) Artists Rifles comprised of itinerant Aussie barmen, for instance?
Spain, of course, had their own unpleasantness going on at the time, but ad-hoc units of demobbed International Brigaders continuing their fight against fascism doesn't seem beyond the realms of possibility, does it?
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Interesting, thanks for the tip :) My other question is: Is anyone in Sydney thinking of playing this? It's great for a read but there's no point starting if there's no one to play with!
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Hi, and snap on the avatar.
I have long thought of doing this, although long before VBCW came out. If you can, have a read of 1932 by Gerald Stone, or just google the 'New Guard' - in short, they were the chaps who were very numerous and most famously cut the ribbon on the Harbour Bridge before the Premier did. There were two (from memory) real attempts on the Premier's life, both thwarted by the police. Had the New Guard ever actually started anything, who knows what would have happened.
And one day I will, and the day is coming soon. Along with all my other projects. I'm pretty sure It'll be just me though! Alas, I'm in Melbourne.
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There is an 'Empire' sourcebook due out before too long that might answer your questions. However the whole concept has been quite 'free' and if you think Australians might make their way over to the motherland, or indeed have their own civil war (there were Ossie fascists around at the time along with Communists, Republicans whatever), then make it happen.
As for Spanish units as Citizen Sade pointed out, they have their own thing happening. However the International Brigades were forced to shed their foreigners and retitled in 1938, so there'd be a lot of them looking for somewhere to go. Many couldn't return to their home countries and another war would give them somewhere to go.
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Had the New Guard ever actually started anything, who knows what would have happened.
Well that's something I never learnt at school (a list becoming progressively larger, which is a good thing))... the New Guard were dissolved once the Governor booted out Lang.
Could the BCW be a rallying point for the dissilusioned New Guarders who had been thwarted by the Governor General's dismissal of Lang from office?
According to Wikipedia, their principles may suggest so:
* Loyalty to the British Throne and support for the British Empire
* Sane and honourable government in Australia
* Suppression of disloyal/immoral elements in government, industry and society
* Abolition of machine politics
* Maintaining individual liberty
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Guard)
Iceaxe: thanks for the insight into an interesting bit of local history. Definitely something to mull over. I'm with you on this one, though: plenty of other stuff to work on... but I'd make it a priority if there was some interest closer to home.
However, some useful source material might come out of this!
Jim: I think I'm going to wait for the "Compendium" edition of BCW before I buy any books... but to be quite honest, the Interwar boards have given me more than enough to go on for now. Good job!
Thanks for the input so far everybody!
And here's something informative and entertaining:
http://www.screenaustralia.gov.au/learning/heritage/degroots_sword.html
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The idea of Pro-empire Australian fascists aiding Mosley is interesting and not wholly unlikely ; new guard mounted Infanrty coming to help Mother England? Equally, volunteers from unions and communists helping the other side.
In one of the source books, there is talk about people's Assualt Columns being formed as a left wing field force; the ex-IB (the left Spain in Oct 1938) contingenet could be part of this. Some people have carlists/Spanish fascists helping the far right, too.
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Jim: I think I'm going to wait for the "Compendium" edition of BCW before I buy any books... but to be quite honest, the Interwar boards have given me more than enough to go on for now. Good job!
The compendium won't be the whole set of books in one volume, it will be a collection of various articles, scenarios and source materiel on top of what's already been published. The Empire book isn't far off, but there are still some gaps apparently... iirc Australia was one of them, so if you guys want to contribute information or even articles, it might be worth dropping Simon a mail at http://solwaycraftsandminiatures.webs.com/contact.htm
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Right well I better buy my self a book then :) Thanks for clearing that up.
I like the sound of mounted New Guard, paul! As long as their swords are held upright for thrusting, not slashing ;)
From what I've read, quite a number of New Guard comprised of WW1 veterans... as well as members of high society, and the intrepid Sir Charles Kingsford Smith! (After whom we named our biggest airport).
I'm thinking of WW1 miniatures as veterans, dusting off their old uniforms, joined by well-dressed city folk (a la gangsters).
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Pick yourself up a copy of Michael Cathcart's Defending the National Tuckshop and you'll get an idea of how ludicrous De Droot, the New Guard, White Army etc were. Still if you are prepared to suspend disbelief, it might make a fun game. The period is decidedly pre 1938, more 1931/32. Always liked the idea of a workers militia under a banner that says 'Lang, Greater than Lenin'. :D
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There is a critical look at Catchart's work from a show called Media Watch on the ABC here:
http://www.thesydneyinstitute.com.au/mediaWatchContent.php?mediaWatchID=163
... basically exposing that M.C. doesn't have any evidence to support any of his claims :-X
What I'm trying to say is that it looks like it's not hard to stretch the truth out a bit for the sake of a bit of tabletop wargaming ;)
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I do love it when Gerard Henderson poses as some sort of public intellectual, it's almost as funny as when his dippy wife Anne does. Still what to do when you are failed conservative speech writer? The pool of right wing 'thinkers' is pretty shallow in Oz, even shallower in Sydney, you have to start counting people like Paddy McGuiness lol.
As for Michael Cathcart's little tome, well it's been quite a while since I read it but I'm not sure it was ever intended as more than a popular work of history, no doubt he did over egg the omelette in certain places, he wanted to flog his little pot boiler. That said the bits that dear old Gerard finds noisome have a distinct ring of truth to them and really it's the perceived politics he abhors. fairly safe to say that there was a sector of Australian society, particularly in rural areas wed to notions of authoritarianism, 'Britishness' and harbouring deep resentments to catholics, unions and the left. Actually it's still there, it's called the National Party these days. They modified the anti catholic bit when the DLP were their friends and the McGauran brothers felt safe enough to join. ;) Gerard as a Xavier old boy hates being reminded of this sort of thing.
At any rate, my memory of Cathcart's original work is that the putative leaders of the New Guard and co were pretty laughable and whether they or anyone else were a serious threat to the common weal is matter of debate. Fun period though.
BTW that's not a transcript from the ABC's Media Watch but Gerard Henderon's Media Watch
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I have a fantasy scenario with Gerard Henderson and his zombie acolyte hordes trying to take over Australia.
Oh wait, that's really what he wants.
Gerard and his cronies, like the New Guard, are a complete joke. His occasional appearances on television are best described as Benny Hill without the rapier-like intellectual wit.
My father as a Catholic living in rural NSW during that period had personal experience of the New Guard. His contempt for them was palpable. Their revolutionary fervour was mostly concerned with the odd egg-throwing and belting up Aborigines. The best they managed was a couple of drunken fist-fights which they comprehensively lost.
Such heroism....
On a slightly serious note, they never had a chance of getting up in Australia. The ex-servicemen who were seen as a natural recruiting ground for this sort of crap generally despised them. We (Australians) were too busy creating our own national myth to be bothered with the Great British Dreaming.
I would be glad to see them on the table. I could use a claw hammer with great effect.
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BTW that's not a transcript from the ABC's Media Watch but Gerard Henderon's Media Watch
Ah, my apologies! It was early and that's the only link my sleep-addled brain could make at the time.
However, I am trying to to look at this from a gaming perspective first and foremost. At least there is something for me to go on now.
Thanks guys!
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Quite true, most ex-servicemen were probably disinclined to join with the New Guard despite the political tone of the RSL.
Now if you want a military figurehead for your reactionaries, try to pick the period where Blamey was Chief Commssioner of the Victoria Police. Instead of his colleagues finding his warrant card and badge in a raid on an illegal brothel you could say it was discovered by the New Guard and they blackmailed him. Or maybe they just bribed him with some free booze. Certainly his later behaviour indicates he was morally susceptible to a little pressure and he did like a drink. You could even give Gordon Bennett a run as a New Guard commander (quite literally in his case). If he loses a battle roll a D6 and on a 4 or less he decamps to Singapore. :)
On a vaguely related note, a friend of mine came across an amazing piece from the late thirties where some Western Australian sub-branch of the RSSIL was lauding the service of an ex-AIF man killed fighting in Spain for the Republic. I can't remember the exact details but I do recall being gobsmacked by the glowing praise showered on the chap for demonstrating the ANZAC spirit in volunteering to fight in Spain. Unlikely cause for the RSSIL to champion. Sometimes the bonds of comradeship exceed people's political inclinations.
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The truly fascinating incident in Australian right-wing politics of this period is the claimed attempt to enlist Sir John Monash as the figurehead for a New Guard coup.
Sir John was a known conservative and former C-in-c of the Australian Army, a huge war hero and immensely popular. According to some recent biographies, he told them to go and get stuffed in no uncertain terms.
A couple of uncomfortable points here. Monash was a patriot and loyal to Australia and, by extension, the Australian government of whatever politics (possibly short of outright communism). He was also Jewish and had faced down a number of snide attacks on his religion. The New Guard, in Australia at least, had a heavy Protestant Christian emphasis with a a fair share of Masonic members. I cannot speak for anywhere outside Australia but anti-Semitism was a serious factor in ultra-conservative politics. It always galled these clowns that our greatest soldier was Jewish.
A great man and well worth serious study.
Sorry to get serious about what is a fantasy after all but this isn't like zombies and vampires. You can't just whack in Cthulhu and hope for the worst in scenarios like this. This is a very complex period in Australian social life and, while revolution was never a serious possibility (from any side) there were deep undercurrents at work. For what it's worth DH Lawrence's "Kangaroo" isn't a bad look at some of the stressors (although I don't much like him).
I'll get off my soapbox now.
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... some Western Australian sub-branch of the RSSIL was lauding the service of an ex-AIF man killed fighting in Spain for the Republic. I can't remember the exact details but I do recall being gobsmacked by the glowing praise showered on the chap for demonstrating the ANZAC spirit in volunteering to fight in Spain. Unlikely cause for the RSSIL to champion. Sometimes the bonds of comradeship exceed people's political inclinations.
Perhaps it was the anti-Catholic emphasis? A kind of 'well they may be Bolshies but at least they standing up against that Papist mumbo-jumbo' reaction.
The War in Spain caused a lot of alliances that we'd think of as being unlikely. For instance, some sections of the Irish Republican movement supported Franco, and even volunteered in the Nationalist versions of the International Brigades, because he was pro-Catholic.
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Not really "anti-Papist". It was a lot simpler than that and a lot clearer particularly after war was declared.
They were seen as "first to fight" against fascism and by extension, Nazism. The heartening thing was that most people recognised it as such. It was reinforced as Spanish "reffos" (refugees) appeared in numbers in Australia. Their politics tended to be "left" but they were also seen as hard workers, good blokes and liked a drop to drink. All qualities that appealed to us. I suppose it was "these blokes are good blokes, the other blokes must be bastards then. And even worse, unlike the good blokes, they liked the Nazis."
The RSL's always been more complex than people give it credit for. There was a serious split many years ago when a lot of RSLs started calling themselves Soldiers' Clubs and Diggers' Clubs. Most of the blokes I know just wanted a quiet place to have a cheap drink and a meal and didn't want to know about politics.
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Sorry to get serious about what is a fantasy after all but this isn't like zombies and vampires. You can't just whack in Cthulhu and hope for the worst in scenarios like this. This is a very complex period in Australian social life and, while revolution was never a serious possibility (from any side) there were deep undercurrents at work.
No need to apologise, I see your point. It is certainly a complicated series of events and bastardising this for the sake of a bit of dice-rolling isn't going to keep everyone happy.
Thanks for the information though, it's obviously an area that carlos and yourself have looked into a lot more than I have.
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Very interesting thread about an era that I as an Englishman knew little or nothing.
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The RSL's always been more complex than people give it credit for. There was a serious split many years ago when a lot of RSLs started calling themselves Soldiers' Clubs and Diggers' Clubs. Most of the blokes I know just wanted a quiet place to have a cheap drink and a meal and didn't want to know about politics.
The West St Kilda RSL is a good case in point. Founded just after the Second World War by a group of returned servicemen who were fed up with the official line. So the story goes, they fronted up to the St Kilda Army & Navy club and paid their dues and were told by the Great War veterans that whilst they were welcome to join they wouldn't be welcome to sit at the bar, that was a privilege that was confined to First AIF men. So they all chipped in, raised a couple of hundred pounds and bought premises in Loch Street and started their own sub-branch. Fantastic spot, must be worth several million these days. Alas the membership is dying out as it's the only RSL, at least in Victoria, where the premises are acren't owned by the RSL but by it's members.
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No, what's that?
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Fine unless you're a potential new recruit!
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Or it rains...
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I was just enjoying a snifter over at the Edward the VIII Cocktail Bar and noticed the following:
http://gwargamesp.18.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=2398&st=0&#entry28930
Now, this thread indicates to me that there is more than enough information to go on, especially for a fantasy setting.
Disgruntled members of the disbanded New Guard sympathising with Mosley's BUF rhetoric? Communist Party rabble seeing a chance to cut the head off the snake?
It'd be cool for the great southern land to have a mention in the new book :) (By the way, looks like NZ will get an entry, so...)
Anyone want to give me a hand and get something going for this?