Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Other Adventures => Topic started by: joroas on February 09, 2010, 10:32:17 AM
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Not sure if any of you use his products, but I just bought his new moder-post modern rules, Flying Lead, and this is on the back cover, a list of rules and future rules that may be of interest:
Ganesha Games Presents
www.ganeshagames.net
AVAILABLE GAMES
Song of Blades and Heroes
fantasy skirmish rules $5 pdf
Origins Award Nominated Rules;
Winner Best Demo Game at Eroi per Gioco 2008
Song of Gold and Darkness
Dungeon-delving supplement for SBH $8 pdf
Song of Wind and Water
Wilderness supplement for SBH $8 pdf
Song of Arthur and Merlin
Arthurian rules for SBH $8 pdf
Song of Fur and Buttons
Colonial Teddy Bears campaign for SBH $8 pdf
Based on models by Eureka Miniatures
Song of the Splintered Lands
Campaign for SBH $8 pdf
Based on models by Splintered Light Miniatures
Song of Deeds and Glory
Expanded multiplayer campaigns for SBH $8 pdf
Mutants and Death Ray Guns
Stand alone, post-apocalypse rules $8 pdf
Fear and Faith
Stand alone, horror skirmish rules $8 pdf
Song of Drums and Shakos
standalone, Napoleonic skirmish $8 pdf
Winner, Origins Award 2009, Best Historical Rules;
Winner, Silver Medal, Historicon 2009;
Winner, Best Demo Game, Hellana 2009
More Drums and Shakos
Expansion for SDS $8 pdf
Familiars RPG
Magical animals roleplaying rules $5 pdf
COMING ATTRACTIONS
Kookie Teenage Monster Hunters
Vampire hunting sourcebook for FF
Ghost Rangers
Ghost hunting campaign for FF
Heroes of the Blade
Special characters for SBH
Song of Armies and Hordes
Army-level fantasy rules
Song of the Dragon Kings
Mythic China stand alone rules
Assault on Neo Tokyo
Supplement for MDRG
Song of Spear and Shield
Stand alone ancient skirmish game
Mighty Monsters
Stand alone giant monster rules
Power Legion
Stand alone superpowered rules
Tales of Blades and Heroes
Fantasy RPG rules based on SBH
Tales of Beasts and Perils
GM’s book for Tales of Blades and Heroes
Frontline Heroes
WWII supplement for FL
Song of Gods and Heroes
Mythic Greece standalone miniature rules
Song of Shadow and Honor
Mythic and historical Japan stand alone rules
Song of Tide and Wave
Naval rules for pirates and fantasy
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Andrea who does these is incredibly active on the Yahoo group and is very helpful with questions etc.
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Not sure if any of you use his products, but I just bought his new moder-post modern rules, Flying Lead, and this is on the back cover, a list of rules and future rules that may be of interest:
[...A Very Long List...]
Does Andrea ever sleep?!
I have several of the games on that list, but have only had the pleasure to play MDRG at this point. What a blast!
Ganesha's games are refreshingly rules-lite and made for quick, fun sessions.
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Does Andrea ever sleep?!
I asked him once. He said that he will sleep when he is dead :)
Ganesha's games are refreshingly rules-lite and made for quick, fun sessions.
I have played a few full weekends worth of Ganesha games, mostly Song of Blades and Heroes and Mutants and Death Ray Guns, with a little bit of Fear & Faith too. Those games have increased my enthusiasm for miniature tabletop games more than any other system has over the last 10 years or so. I would paint miniatures regardless, but I do like that nearly everything that I paint now can be used in games.
In addition, the PDFs of each book are dirt cheap at $8 (I think that Flying Lead cost me EUR€6 on Sunday). Highly recommended for a large turnover of fast, fun games that will give you an opportunity to use a whole bunch of painted figures that you thought may never see the game table again.
Highly recommended.
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Songs Of The Dragon Kings sounds interesting. I have not tried any of these titles yet but that one may be my first.
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I've polayed Mutants & Death Ray Guns. IT made me decide to buy Fear & Faith. Now I am waiting for the F&F Supplements.
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I'd love to hear a review of flying lead, if you've got time.
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I played two games of SOBH which I found to be interesting.
I must admit that the list makes me wonder if isn't a bit "same sameish".
Is Mutants and Death Ray Guns not just Songs of Blades and Heroes with different name tags?
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I played two games of SOBH which I found to be interesting.
I must admit that the list makes me wonder if isn't a bit "same sameish".
Is Mutants and Death Ray Guns not just Songs of Blades and Heroes with different name tags?
Certainly the core mechanics are the same, but each game has added mechanics to give the right flavour for each genre. For me, the beauty of the games is sharing the same core, you can play different genres without havng to learn a completely new set of rules.
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Certainly the core mechanics are the same, but each game has added mechanics to give the right flavour for each genre. For me, the beauty of the games is sharing the same core, you can play different genres without havng to learn a completely new set of rules.
Hmm OK. I have yet to see a "one size fits all" that doesn't sacrifice too much.
In my experience tailored rule sets win in the long run. But I guess I'll have to try it anyway.
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In my experience tailored rule sets win in the long run.
I agree, but these games are surprisingly well done. Song of Blades rules are 5-6 pages long and you can play for years without getting tired. The add-on books are not as good, though, but there's interesting ideas in all of them. They're more a "toolbox" than a "finished" game, so you'll need to think what you want them for, and then write scenarios, pick the optional rules that suit you best, etc.
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I've got both 'SOBH' and 'Mutants and Death Ray Guns' and I like both rule set, their especially good for new players as they are very quick to pick up and the core mechanics are quite intuitive. Both sets though sharing the same core mechanic are quite different in their style, how does flying lead match up to them?
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Fan of SBH too
I play with my 10 years old son and friends - it rocks…
Got already a few posses - you can virtually do anything you want with the excel calculator.
Time to paint many minis I had no project for so far.
So if you want fun and gaming go for it
cheers
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Ok my two pennies...
one year and a bit ago I had a chat with Andrea, the brain behind Ganesha, very nice chap, but after that I decided I would be very very very wary of his games... no it is not a bad trader alert! Simply while chatting I realized his game philosophy is to the exact opposite of mine.
When I mentioned I was playing Sharp Practice, the replied "old school". I think Sharp PRactice is proably the best gunpoweder skirmish I have ever played with plenty of opportunity to cater for small skimirhes or large ones, role playing and fun. His main point agaisnt it was "it uses different mechanics it is not elegant".
That made me deciding the system has problem... ok it produces a very neat small scale game with few troops and terrain, but I think it is an aberration, also he is using the same thing over and over changing the nametag... for him is elegance, for me is missing the point...
so I think the entire thing as pros and cons, it is fast and requires minimal preparation, but it is more a filler than a real game, you can turn fast game in a serialized manner at a convention, but to be quite honest in the end is more of the same, but a lot more...
SO for me is a definite no go :( I do not like to put something or someone down, but I think people has to be warned. Also one of the reason it has been selected for the italian tournament system (and I think this is a shame not an honor for a game) is beacuse it is plain, ahistorica (ok this is my conclusion) and you can play with almost no terrain (sorry but skirmish is terrain!
Arrigo
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I have a ccouple of the sets and for me not enough lead ;D but I should have known that. Not too keen on them and would agree to an extent with Arrigo in that I often find difficulty with one rule set coveing lots of periods. Saying that they do seem to be popular so good luck to them
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One thing worth to mention is that, as far I can glean, the majority of the ganesha team came from DBx series. They want a simple low level and baseline approach to wargaming.
I am not saying they are bad, they are definitely not my coup of tea, and what I call "borderline wargamin", where the rules are more important than the period. (To be quite honest I have even difficulties in suing the same rules for WW2, vietnam and Contemporary, thus go figure...)
Arrigo
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It's not like Andrea has produced one rulebook to fit all , each rulebook is tailored to the genre or period, I think suggesting that all he does is change the nametag is unfair.
I've found the rules for SBH and SDS to be good fun, they're not "serious" rule sets but overly simplistic either, and the fact that you can play with almost no terrain is a good thing, it gives you chance to build up your terrain collection and have games in the meantime. For me I've also found that SDS has motivated me to get on with painting all the Naps figures I've collected for Sharp Practice, but these rules are more than filler, I think I'll be playing them for some time.
Arrigo, have you actually played the game or at least read the rules, or are you simply taking that as Andrea suggested that SP lacks elegance, that the rules don't suit your philosophy?
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I suppose they could appear simplistic, I thought they were when I heard about them. Then someone at the club showed me how to play. There is a lot of hidden depth to these rules. Seeing heavily armoured chaos warriors trying to catch lightly armoured elves in a forest opened my eyes to the tactical subtlties of these rules. The different rules do share a common engine, but saying that, how many games do you know where you don't have to roll to hit. They provide a quick and easy to learn, but not easy to master, game.
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I suppose they could appear simplistic, I thought they were when I heard about them. Then someone at the club showed me how to play. There is a lot of hidden depth to these rules. Seeing heavily armoured chaos warriors trying to catch lightly armoured elves in a forest opened my eyes to the tactical subtlties of these rules. The different rules do share a common engine, but saying that, how many games do you know where you don't have to roll to hit. They provide a quick and easy to learn, but not easy to master, game.
Well said!
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I do not like to put something or someone down, but I think people has to be warned.
I can understand not agreeing with the design philosophy or liking the games/system, but I think feeling the need to warn people away may be a bit severe - especially if one hasn't played them. :?
While the core rules of the games are basically identical, from what I've seen (with SBH, F&F, & MDRG) there's enough differentiation to make it so that they don't all seem the same. Aside from the genre-based changes, there are rules variations between them that make each game its own. (For instance, the force creation and campaign systems in MDRG - something SBH doesn't have in its core rules - make it seem more like a Necromunda-style game than SBH's Warhammer-style point-buy system. Oops - sorry for the GW game references. :P )
Certainly, they're not for everybody. But if you're interested in small-scale skirmishes, easy rules that still manage to require a bit of strategy and that allow you to use just about any minis at hand, and games that are quick enough to throw in between sessions of your usual games, you could do far worse.
I'm just sayin'... :)
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No rules will please all the people all the time. The 'song' engine works well for small skirmish games which is what i believe it was designed for .
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I love Song of Blades. It was all the positive reviews that really sold me. I took my time to check it out and was totally convinced. Even more happy when I purchased it. It does exactly what is says it does. Andrea is one of the coolest guys out there. I HIGHLY recommend his games. The extremely active Yahoo group was, to me, a sign that I needed to buy this game. I not only enjoy the game, but the community as well. For every one person who doesn't like his games, it would be interesting to see how many DO love his games. I bet the ratio would be convincing! :o Check out his blog and his game sites. The reviews speak for themselves. The only warning I'd give is this... It is such a GREAT game, you might find ALL of your free time spent playing it. ;)
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I have yet to try SBH but hope to soon. The Ganesha Games title I am really waiting for is the army-level fantasy rules - could be great fun!
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I had them on my hard drive for ages and dismissed them as 'childish' and too much like a single based DBA ... we tried them one night just to see if they would suit my kids at school and discovered that the mechanics were actually very subtle and not like DBA at all really (although they read like it). Then we introduced them to our club who are mainly hard core gamers who playtest for a wide range of 'companies'. They were an instant hit for club games and campaigns.
I liked them so much and was impressed with how easy they were to pick up that I actually wrote the new shooty set 'Flying Lead' for them as I was keen to get the mechanics into the genre of WWII and beyond - this meant changing the mechanics slightly to give overwatch, suppression etc.
They are not as simple as they first seem but do give a good feel and fast game and of course are only £5 - not for every one, not for every game but most people who play I have found are very happy to play again.
Rich J
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I'm glad I started this off. As said, they are nice rules and very cheap. He has also kept up the quality and quantity of production. A quick glance at his forthcoming books impressed me enough to post it, and, unlike another big company that keeps adverting upcoming rules, we will see these.
Considering a main stream WWII game costs nearly£100 for the rules and two army books, I think for a few quid/Euros/dollars, these are cheap.
There is at least one free magazine on his site too. ::)
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There are 8 members of my club (included myself) that are playing Ganesha rules now (Song of baldes and heroes, Mutants and dead ray guns, Song of drum and shako). So far, with full satisfaction. Having bought Flying lead, I think we are giving it a try soon.
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When I mentioned I was playing Sharp Practice, the replied "old school". I think Sharp PRactice is proably the best gunpoweder skirmish I have ever played with plenty of opportunity to cater for small skimirhes or large ones, role playing and fun. His main point agaisnt it was "it uses different mechanics it is not elegant".
That's very interesting. My favourite game is Mud & Blood which is very similar to SP, and I also love SBH. M&B isn't as "elegant" as Flying Lead but it's easy, fun and a much more realistic.
Ganesha's games, on the other hand, have very clever mechanics; I never thought that SDS or FL could work but they're surprisingly good. They're easier to learn and faster, and you can use them for many different things because they have less detail.
They are different philosophies, but if I had to choose, I'd choose Too Fat Lardies. Anyway, their games are completely different and there's a moment and a place for all of them.
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What I have potinted out, and someone seems to have missed, is that I do not subscribe the basic philosophy. Played once and said "doh" in my perfect (ok almost perfect) homer simpson imitation.
I understand where the author was driving, but I do not want to drive there too.
I have warned people abut the game beacuse, from personal experience, too often people start a skirmish game and then end in a giant mess (oh, we could just add another pack... happened to me... small We Can Be Heroes game with a couple of squad per side transformed in a company slugfest! Rule #1, of the hobby, never heed to your cousin advice about number of troops!) outside the scope of the rules.
Also to be quite honest I was not impressed by that comment, especially considering AFTEr having tried the rules. If that is elegance I prefer to be an unelegant guy! 8)
And also, someone would finally decide what elegance is in wargaming? I was thinking it was all about how fancy dressed are your officers! ;D
Arrigo
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These games are designed for small skirmishes, 7-10 models per side, requiring little investment - the SBH rules are only $5 US and the other sets $8 - I really don't see how you can end up in a "big mess", it's not like you have to buy expensive shiny rulebooks and hundreds of miniatures.
Personally I like Sharp Practice, and I'm using it for bigger Nap skirmishes, but there's room for both rulesets and both philosophies.
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Can the rules be used for Old West scenarios at all?
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Can the rules be used for Old West scenarios at all?
at the moment there is nothing writen specifically for the old west (probably there is something at the yahoo group, but I don't know)... but the napoleonic version of the rules can be adapted to do that...
The great about these rules is that they are really very simple and are easily adapted to almost all situations due to that same simplicity.
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I think you can end in a big mess with skirmish games that are linked to specific models ala Malifaux, Helldorado, Infinity etc. Helldorado is an excellent case in point, but open systems ala SBH, Sharp Practice etc have the advantage that if that set doesn't work then you can find another that will work for the same models.
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Big mess:
thinking that because the game works perfectly for 10 figures... you can add bit more... then end with 200.... typical wargaming behavior ;D even if the rules seay "this will not work".
Arrigo
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Erm. no, I'd be looking at mass battle systems for 200 figures.
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WILD WEST - A few players are using Flying Lead for Wild West, with the online weapon builder you can customise the weapons. There is a thread on the GG forum about statting up Winchesters and the rules have most other types of projectile weapon categories ... we have used them for Firefly a lot and that is basically Wild West for the outland planets.
Rich J
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The more I hear about Flying Lead the more I'm tempted!
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It's only 8 US dollars ... be tempted, although I would say that of course lol
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Big mess:
thinking that because the game works perfectly for 10 figures... you can add bit more... then end with 200.... typical wargaming behavior ;D even if the rules seay "this will not work".
That may or may not be a "big mess." As others have pointed out, the rules are inexpensive and not tied to any specific product line. Since there's no large financial investment in the rules themselves, and no game-specific miniatures to buy, the risk is practically negligible. It wouldn't be difficult at all to find a different rule set that meets the requirements for larger battles, should one outgrow the game. (Or even to house rule the game at hand to fit one's needs. I've done so extensively, to make the rules work in ways that fit better to my group's preferences. Being as simple as they are, the games take well to such modification.)
But the important point is: Is the questionable "big mess" the fault of the game system or the designer? I'd say that's a big "No." The games state quite clearly what they're intended to achieve - they don't pretend to be something they're not. If someone thinks they'll do more than they claim and ends up disappointed, that's the person's fault - not the game's, no?
8)
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Sounds good, I'll get myself a set, I've got around a hundred painted Foundry Old West figures that need an airing.
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I tried out SBH a while back and really liked it ... at first ::)
I found that although the rules are definitely elegant, the are a little shallow for my taste. I think that they are great for a one off scenario every once and a while, but the really value for me was using them to play games with my son (who had just turned eight at the time).
As others have suggested, different folks, different strokes. I'm currently preparing to play a Gothic Horror campaign using Chaos in Carpathia, and when I played Old West I used Legends of the Old West. When I start playing Pulp, I will find a rule set that works specifically for that genre.
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I have read this thread with interest as I have recently bought Songs of Drums and Shakos, and I was surprised how much dice rolling there was to make the game happen. Like rolling to activate every man and see how many actions he had.
I am thinking about buying Flying Lead, but does this work in the same way? How many figures shuld I have on one side in a typical game?
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Hi
all the games are really aimed at using between 8 and maybe 15 figures a side, typically around 10.
Flying Lead works in much the same way but the game probably goes quicker as there is no need to reload as an action etc. Also the way the group actions work is slightly different, command distance wise etc. We happily play games with a couple of more generic squads and a vehicle a side.
Rich
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Thanks for the answer. So the rules work the same way in that you roll between one and three dice for activation?
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Yes they do although in modern armed forces games you tend to be activating a 'fire team' with a roll and not individuals, although obviously this is sometimes desirable.