Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: svinkel on 05 May 2010, 07:01:25 PM
-
i want to do this
(http://www.ditext.com/goldman/russia/tcheka.jpg)
What is your advice for minis and for the colours ?
-
Coppelstones Back of Beyond and Brigades Storm in the East soviet "elites" will fit. I like Coppelstone more, they have everything you need (HMG,LMG, Standard bearer). The guys on the pic seem to wear black leather. Use the Foundry Black triad. Hope that helps.
-
Such uniform could carry both security officers (Tcheka) , and an armored train command. The leather uniform is not regulated, but was popular enough in security officers, commissars, in armored divisions, at pilots.
The leather regimentals, basically, were black colour, but there was also a natural colour of a skin. Trotsky's bodyguard wore such uniform from a red skin! The jacket was often leather only, and other subjects of clothes were usual khaki. Also in a cavalry widespread trousers of dark blue colour. And still, in Red army during Civil war there was a tradition of rewarding by fabric red "proletarian" trousers.
-
I would guess that they were a train "landing" company, as suggested by Cuprum. That still makes them elite, and has the added advantage of making them something you would expect at the front line.
Cheka were rear area troops. There are only a couple of references to Cheka fighting at the front, and then small units in an emergency only. Most Cheka military forces were pretty ordinary, being no different from normal Red Army. (The best Red forces were required to fight real armies, not guard rear areas.)
The Cheka uniform was khaki, despite what the Osprey says. Just because the Cheka commissars became famous for wearing black leather doesn't mean all the rank and file wore it.
-
The black leather coats were so much associated with secret police that even in the 80ies someone wearing one was seen as a secret policeman, in the whole eastern block.
I agree with Mark, the depicted unit looks very much like a train unit, if not even Trotzky's guard. (would like to know what is written on the standard) And Cheka were not necessarily military elite, only ideologically firm brainwashed murderers.
-
(would like to know what is written on the standard)
BREMEN?
-
I am not secure enoug with Cyrillic to read it from letters smeared on cloth, sorry
anyway here is a gallery with pictures of Chekists
http://ironfelix.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_6
-
Chekists except performance of functions of secret police and suppression of revolts were engaged in struggle against gangsterism, collected in shelters of homeless children, carried out protection of official bodies, realized the guard of the border state..
(http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/1005/06/a1a527e24a76.jpg)
-
Chekists except performance of functions of secret police and suppression of revolts were engaged in struggle against gangsterism, collected in shelters of homeless children, carried out protection of official bodies, realized the guard of the border state..
(http://s45.radikal.ru/i108/1005/06/a1a527e24a76.jpg)
thanks a lot
-
The reconstruction of the commissar:
(http://s52.radikal.ru/i137/1005/4a/c185ec4f5c95.jpg)
If want, I can lay out photos of real things of regimentals of a command of a train of Trotsky.
-
The reconstruction of the commissar:
(http://s52.radikal.ru/i137/1005/4a/c185ec4f5c95.jpg)
If want, I can lay out photos of real things of regimentals of a command of a train of Trotsky.
Oh, please do!
-
The French text that accompanies those Polish pictures of Cheka troops reads:
1. Red-Army-Man (soldier) of the Cheka forces. His dress and armament are pre-revolutionary models. Shortages of adequate laced and knee boots led to the authorisation of bast [bark] footwear in the RKKA (Workers’ and Peasants’ Red Army) at least until 1920.
2. Voenkom (Military Commissar) of Cheka troops in improvised uniform with the insignia of “commander” of a unit on his chest.
3. Komvzvoda (Platoon Commander) of Cheka troops in the RKKA uniform of mid-1919, with the insignia of “commander”.
BREMEN?
Something to do with "time". It transliterates as Vremeni.
-
"only ideologically firm brainwashed murderers."
Do we have to have this nonsensical crap here? What strange universe does the writer hail from? This is a wargames site not a home for people with such a tenuous grasp of reality.
-
Something to do with "time". It transliterates as Vremeni.
it makes sense!
-
people with such a tenuous grasp of reality.
I do not wish to slip into a political discussion here...
In answering this I will only hold up a mirror :)
and return to the wargaming topic by explaining that my statement was intended as a (maybe biased) comment on the "elite" military status of Cheka troops, at least for the RCW period
-
"only ideologically firm brainwashed murderers."
Do we have to have this nonsensical crap here? What strange universe does the writer hail from? This is a wargames site not a home for people with such a tenuous grasp of reality.
To me that statement did not warrant a personal attack like this.
-
THX
let's just forget it...
-
Since when you are not allowed opinions on the wargaming forums? If I will call SS units "war criminals" doesnt it mean I dont have a grasp on reality? Sorry for off topic here..
-
Since when you are not allowed opinions on the wargaming forums? If I will call SS units "war criminals" doesnt it mean I dont have a grasp on reality? Sorry for off topic here..
former user who who touched the subject has asked us to let it go, so lets.
-
(http://images4.hiboox.com/images/2510/f7a618a4700f4b13b665a0fc7d7a4e46.jpg) (http://www.hiboox.fr/go/images/divers/dsc03442-large,f7a618a4700f4b13b665a0fc7d7a4e46.jpg.html)
so i painted my minis like this, they are more beautiful in real
-
they look good
-
Very well.
But there is a historical error. Never saw shirts in the Red army, sewed of a fabric of black colour, and furthermore from a skin. It is incorrect. And here helmets from a black skin met.
Do not take offence, for figure game are good and in this kind.
-
Very well.
But there is a historical error. Never saw shirts in the Red army, sewed of a fabric of black colour, and furthermore from a skin. It is incorrect. And here helmets from a black skin met.
Do not take offence, for figure game are good and in this kind.
I read somewhere that the Cheka sometimes wore black leather uniform?
-
that's what I read too, and saw pictures
actually black leather jacket is synonimous with cjekist in the easten block
maybe Cuprum refers to the cut of the uniform, which is not jackets, but tunics?
even as fictional variant, they work good for me
-
I read somewhere that the Cheka sometimes wore black leather uniform?
Presumably the Osprey on the Red Army. Sadly both that and, even more so, the matching White book are riddled with errors.
Senior Cheka operatives were known for their black outfits and use of leather from the early days. But this is the political operatives.
Cheka units were just ordinary units assigned to provide the Cheka with some firepower. They were not particularly elite, and did not dress differently. The Cheka were never a front-line military outfit, and it is rare to see any of their troops fighting non-partisan fronts.
-
The painted figures are dressed in summer shirt (gymnasterka). It has always been sewed in Red army from a fabric of various shades khaki, in the south could be white colour, but never black colour.
The jacket, sometimes black кожанные trousers and a leather helmet - budenovka could be the black only кожанная.
And, as Mark has told, army divisions Cheka differed nothing from other Red army. Also were applied, basically, for struggle against insurgents.
-
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolishEasternFront/photos/album/1704612357/pic/2072082496/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc)
-
How does someone upload pictures directly on this site?
I did not succed above.
-
Great information - Thanks! I had the same misconceptions of the Tchecka from the Osprey as well. I understand they were used as "blocking detachments" in some cases like the NKVD in WWII with Maxim guns to ensure no one runs! There were several Tchecka units listed in the Petrograd OOB's that I have; some are listed as blocking detachments (interestingly there are also Naval Blocking detachments!).
-
Kronstadt is one reason why the idea of Cheka blocking detachments remains so strong. From that use, and WWII, the inference is made that they were common.
Kronstadt was an unusual case, in that it was at a place inside the heart of Russia, so there were a lot of Cheka men already there. It also called for a particularly determined prepared assault. Lastly Tukhachevski took over, and from what I can find, almost all blocking detachments in the Civil War were used under his command. (I wonder if the Cheka and Naval units were used in the rear because they were unsatisfactory as infantry. The best infantry were the ChON.)
On the external fronts there weren't enough Cheka to run "units" and few commanders were fond of the concept anyway. Given that the front lines were ridiculously thinly spread, to have a whole second line to hold the first line in place was a luxury that could never be afforded. (But it would not surprise me to hear of them in the assault of the Crimean Perekop isthmus in late 1920, which was a dense prepared assault.)
Cuprum might be able to help me here. Would I be correct in believing that any formal troops of the "Cheka" in 1920 would go under the name VOKhR? (BOXP)
-
In the first after revolutionary years maintenance of internal security of the Soviet state has been assigned to the All-Russia Extreme Commission on struggle against counterrevolution, gamble and malfeasances (till August 1918 - on struggle against counterrevolution and sabotage) - ВЧК (Cheka), formed on December, 7th (20) 1917, The large powers given to this organisation in Civil war, with world approach have been partially reduced, and itself ВЧК (Cheka) February, 1922 would be transformed to the State Political Management (ГПУ) at the National Commissariat of internal affairs (People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs) of RSFSR. In connection with formation of the USSR in November 1921, Incorporated state political management (ОГПУ) has been created at Council of national commissioners of the USSR, including the State political managements of RSFSR and other union republics.
Organisation ГПУ-ОГПУ competence included state security maintenance: struggle against political crimes, struggle espionage, against "counterrevolution" in general, Service of the operations spent by this organisation, struggle against gangsterism, arrests, ambushes, protection of government agencies, values of the state importance and industrial targets. External protection of prisons was carried out by the Internal armies ГПУ-ОГПУ created on June, 13th 1918, as the Case of armies ВЧК (Cheka). On May, 25th, 1919 this formation together with other armies of auxiliary appointment was a part of Armies of internal protection of Republic (ВОХР - VOKhR), consisting under the authority of People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs; on September, 1st 1920, ВОХР, strengthened still a number of contingents, have formed Armies of internal service (ВНУС) from which on January, 19th 1921, the independent Armies ВЧК (Cheka) on February, 6th, 1922 reorganised in Internal armies ГПУ (then ОГПУ).
Internal protection of prisons and prisoners was carried out by the Convoy guards of Republic existing since April 1918, To 1921, it was included into structure of the National commissariat of justice, but was in operative submission at ГПУ,
ВЧК, at the beginning ГПУ, had no special uniforms, and used as that various subjects of military and civil clothes. For the first time the form for «special organisation GPU» has been entered on June, 21st 1922,
-
In March 1918г. The instruction of the Central Committee of the All-Russia Communist party (Bolsheviks) «About arms of communists and to training to their military science» has begun formation of military-party Special groups (ООН ) which have been renamed subsequently into Parts of Special Function (ЧОН). The instruction recommended to create groups at each factory, at regional and city party committees on type Red army divisions. Ordinary communists - workers of factories, industrial artels who on the job, should have training initial military preparation should become a basis of military-party groups and on the first call of party should act with the weapon in hands on protection of its interests. The basic organizational-established post was company . In the organisations where there were few communists, platoons, and in unusual cases - branches were created, and similar formations united in large connections in city scales. The ordinary fighter of a special group was called as the Communard. The persons enlisted in group were trained in shooting from a rifle, machine guns, to a throwing of grenades, studied blasting and artillery business.
Despite the fact that. That main destination ЧОН was «... Training of private soldiers communist to military science and their education in the spirit of revolutionary vigilance...», since spring of 1918 of a part of special function rendered considerable aid in execution of internal service. They protected important political, military and industrial targets, together with armies ВЧК participated in liquidation of mutinies and plots. Thus, everywhere and always armies ЧОН were a strong support of communist party and the Soviet power. However, as value of first groups CHON in a life of young Soviet Republic was great, they have not been united in the uniform army organisation and had no general military centre. The system of arms, army supply and training has not been adjusted, that considerably reduced their fighting possibilities.
The arms of groups CHON were rather weak. The newest arms, first of all, arrived in the regular parts of Red Army which were at the front. Other arms were distributed among reserve divisions and other armed groups of self-defence. Therefore fighters ЧОН armed than has got, including out-of-date samples of rifles of the sample of the middle of last century, rifles of foreign manufacture to which, as a rule, there was no ammunition. The saturation of parts of special function machine guns (on the end of their 1919 is registered only 92 pieces) was lowest, there were no armored cars, armored trains, artillery and other means.
Resumes - divisions CHON were parts of the territorial home guard, poorly armed but consisting only from communists.
-
Just found this post! I love your mins svinkel! :D