Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Jase on June 10, 2010, 09:44:54 PM
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Hello!
I have been looking for some good SWAT miniatures for ages and, not happy with the ones currently on the market, I’m looking into the possibilities of having some made for me. Since it would be too expensive to have a sculptor make them just for me, I’m also looking to see if I can make them available commercially.
Over the past several weeks I have been in contact with various people already involved in the business of producing/selling miniatures to see how they’ve gone about starting a miniatures company. So that I can put together a business plan to set up (in a very small scale) my own company.
As part of that business plan I’m doing some market research as to the feasibility of this project and to see what people would think of it.
So, here’s what I want to do.
Inspired by movies such as S.W.A.T. and games like Grand Theft Auto I want to release miniatures for urban conflicts. The first releases will be 8 SWAT (all in different poses) and later 8 gangsters (of the African-American variety, also in 8 different poses). The models are intended for small scale skirmishes, but I do not want to tie them to a specific ruleset.
Depending on how well those sell I planning more gangsters (Latino, Chines Triads, Radical Survivalists), more SWAT teams, etc. Slowly expanding the range until it covers most, if not all aspects of contemporary urban conflicts.
What I’d like to know is:
- Would you be interested in buying said miniatures?
- Would you prefer them in complete sets of eight (retail price’ll be around GBP 12-14) or in two sets of four (retail price’ll be around GBP 6-7)?
- What else would you like to see in a range of modern urban miniatures (I have a long list of ideas, but your input would be greatly appreciated)?
- Would you prefer the models to be 28mm or 20mm?
I’m looking forward to your replies.
Thanks!
Jase
PS I’ll put this message on several fora, so you might run into it again in some other places as well.
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Yes I'd buy them providing they were well made and 28-30mm.
However, I have some SWAT that I like (Britannia) and also some from West Wind. I used to have some TAG too but I sold them, how would yours be different from these?
I can always use more gangsters so those would be an almost certain purchase (providing they are good sculpts and not too small).
I (and everyone else here) do not represent the wargaming world in any way so you must take all my (our) suggestions extremely lightly if you plan to start a business :)
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Well for starts I'd prefer 28mm real scale rather than heroic (ie Hasslefree like proportions). Separate heads would also be nice if possible to add a little variation to poses.
SWAT would be nice with SMGs, pistols, etc. not sure about Afro-american gangsters, I'd prefer italian/european gangsters. Civilians would be very nice as either bystanders or hostages.
But alot depends on the quality of the miniature - I find myself more and more drawn to fewer high quality miniatures at a higher price, than more lower quality at a lower price.
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I've not picked up any swat figures yet so I might be interested in your proposed set.
As for other minis--I've been looking for some decent 28 mm first responders for ages--doesn't seem to be any of those on the market right now. They could fit in well with any sort of urban conflict/zombie out break scenarios.
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i would definatly pick up a few swats. decent 28mm. always like to help chaps passionate about the hobby by getting mins made. :) also who would you like to make them?
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Latinos and Rastas would be pretty cool. Can't really go wrong drawing inspiration from GTA III :)
Also what Carma said. "Send more paramedics" :D
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I suppose my question about the SWAT would be, what are the deficiencies you see in what is currently out there, and how would the figures you are proposing be different?
Offhand, I can think of 28/30mm SWAT troops from the following:
Eureka (multipart with separate heads. I have these and rather like them)
Foundry
TAG
Rebel Minis
Copplestone
RAFM (REALLY large figures)
West Wind
I think many (though by no means all) of these figures are pretty nice, especially the Copplstone and some of the TAG figures. I already have a fair sized collection, so in order to inspire me to get more, you would have to give me some idea of how yours would improve on what's available. :D :D :D
Cheers,
Jason
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You familiar with Bobby Jackson's Thugz?
http://www.fantization.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=37
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US-style SWAT are nice, but there are plenty of those out there... Please focus on their European counterparts.
If you do some proper riot cops, I'd be seriously tempted.
Especially if they're in Dutch/British/German style kit (i.e. padding under uniform, instead of hardshell stuff worn over). If I could also get Dutch style wicker shields I'd be overjoyed. :D Make most with nightsticks. Perhaps some characters/alternates with things like bull horns, beanbag guns, (teargas)grenade launchers.
Other first responders; EMT, Firemen, etc. would also be a great addition! There's hardly any out there, let alone in decent quality.
Same with civvies/innocent bystanders. I'd really like to see more of those produced!
Like Dijit, I'd prefer a few higher quality sculpts over a lot of lower quality sculpts for the same price.
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Modhail, I love your idea about first responders other than police. Firefighters and medics would be great!
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Always interested in new SWAT figs.
I would prefer 28mm, 20 is to small for myself, and if you want to make them for small-sized Skirmish 28 is the better choice.
Would like to have some Yakuza too.
I have the Foundry and Copplestone :-*SWAT minis in 28 and the HLBS in 40mm and would like to add some more ;)
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I would like to see something that no one has done yet... like paramedics, firemen, hospital staff, Border Patrol, etc.
Also dead bodies (some in body bags) and wounded! I would be interested if they are really well sculpted 28-30mm miniatures.
Ohhh and of course... Zombies!!! One can never have too many zombies!
Darkoath
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I would like to get a new SWATs for my modern-near future spy game, if quality will be good enough, i`ll definitly buy a lot of them. :)
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Ohhh and of course... Zombies!!! One can never have too many zombies!
I like zeds too, but I'd rather see this fellow concentrate more on SWAT and first responders. There's lots of the skin jobs out there but few potential first victims for them. We need to keep that in mind. :)
European SWAT and riot cops would be swell, along with paramedics and maybe even some news crews. The media are vultures to this kind of stuff. Unarmed civilians are a must as well. There are few decent figures available that aren't toting arms.
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Depending on how well those sell I planning more gangsters (Latino, Chines Triads, Radical Survivalists)
YES!
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Ohhh and of course... Zombies!!! One can never have too many zombies!
Not more zombies please!
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Its good to see someone doing some market research BEFORE they launch a range - normally it seems to happen after the greens are done, and is effectively just marketing.
My honest opinion is that the market is saturated with SWAT.
Eureka
Foundry
TAG - a really comprehensive range!
Rebel Minis
Copplestone
RAFM
West Wind
Offensive do Riot cops, so SWAT would be a very simple set on for them.
Hasslefree - the new upgunned adventurers.
As much as I like to see new minis, and might even buy some (although i've got about 100 SWAT/Cops already for zombie games) i hate to see people lose money on this sort of venture. By the sounds of it, your price model is c£1.50 a figure, so either your sculptor is really cheap, or you are planning on making very little money per figure, or you have vastly overestimated your first couple of years worth of sales.
In a saturated market, the minis need to look really good, to stand out - price isn't enough (unless you are going the plastics route, at 60p per figure) - that sort of sculptor doesn't come cheap, so at the price you've mentioned your profit would be tiny, and therefore the number of figures you need to sell huge for a breakeven. Yes, i'd like to see you make a profit, so that the range can grow!
If you are sold on the SWAT route, i'd suggest either:
a) a bit more research into "character" SWAT-GTA - ie standout minis rather than yet another bunch of guys aiming a MP5 - trouble is you are then in the same space as companies like Hasslefree, who do this very very well. Character minis would only sell in smaller numbers, so your sculptor would need to be top notch, and your pricing premium - £3-5 per mini.
b) If you go mass market - ie cheap generic unit type minis, then get them to fit in sizewise with other existing ranges, and act as complimentary to what people have already bought. eg SWAT medical team, breaching team, sniper etc
If you like the GTA genre, you could always go streetgangs - that way you tap into the zombie market still, and there the opportunity to produce something colourful that stands out.....
Best of Luck
AKULA
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Hi!
Thanks for all the replies. I’ll try to answer all your questions.
My preference is for 28mm size miniatures. However, there are no 20mm SWAT miniatures available, so I added that option to see if the lack of 20mm SWAT would be sufficient to justify making them in that scale. An added bonus would be the availabilty to 1:76 scale model kits and diecast cars. Nevertheless, the majority of people prefer 28mm.
A question I get asked a lot is why I think the my figures would be an addition to the ones currently on the market and in what respect they differ. I find this tricky to answer, since I do not find it professional to downplay the miniatures of other manufacturers. I hope you understand. So, instead I’ll try to explain without mentioning particular manufacturers.
All the miniatures currently on the market either have too few poses, are oddly proportioned, have weird poses, too little detail and/or vague equipment. What I want is enough different poses to put together 3 or 4 teams (4 to 8-man teams) without duplicates, to give players flexibility in putting together their team. They would be in realistic poses that you would find in real SWAT too (no more shooting one way, while looking the other) Also, I want their equipment to resemble real weapons used by SWAT teams and their proportions to be accurate, so no more extra big heads and unwieldy long arms. (I’m not a big fan of separate heads, if only that I never seem to get them right).
As for the gangsters, Jackson’s Thugz are indeed one of the things that inspired me, so I am thinking in that direction, although with my own modifications. Other gangsters will be released also in due time (including Italian mobsters).
Paramedics, civilians, firefighters etc. are already on my list, but it’s nice to see that that’s a niche a lot of people like to see filled.
I have played with the idea of doing some Zombies, but they’re not really my cup of tea. So, not any time soon.
The miniatures will be sculpted by the same guy that’s doing Malamute’s Boothill Miniatures. So quality should be no problem.
@Modhail: Even though I’m from Holland as well, doing Dutch riot cops is not on my list, sorry.
@AKULA: I know there are plenty of companies that sell SWAT miniatures, however, as I stated earlier, I’m not happy with them (miniatures that is ;) ). Very few of them have enough miniatures to put together a proper SWAT team without having to resort to duplicates.
Anyway, I’m not doing this to make a profit, but rather to get the miniatures I like and make them available for other people that like them too. So, pricing is still not set in stone, but I don’t want to make them too expensive. There will be a cross between character models and of course regular models aiming an MP5.
Thanks again to all for your input and please keep it coming!
Cheers
Jase
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I would love to see rioters and protesters as well as wounded (walking as well as prone)
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How about some incarcerated criminals, some with improvised or homemade weapons?
I'd love to run some sort of Prison Riot scenario.
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Miniatures for a prison riot are a great idea!! Didn't think of those myself. Thanks!
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Miniatures for a prison riot are a great idea!! Didn't think of those myself. Thanks!
Yeah, I've kinda been shopping around for those for quite some time.
The cool thing is that the 'factions' are already well developed, provided you go with the sterotypical types.
Guards, The warden, the latinos, the blacks, the supremists, Andy Dufrense..
It would make an awesome game.
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The cool thing is that the 'factions' are already well developed, provided you go with the sterotypical types.
Guards, The warden, the latinos, the blacks, the supremists, Andy Dufrense..
No, you got that all wrong - there are only two groups inside a prison... the guards and those who are not guilty. lol
On topic, I second the call for police forces and first response units other than the already covered ones - most manufacturers seem to focus on the US variety of SWAT. That said, I certainly wouldn't mind more SWAT if they are roughly compatible with Foundry (although "regular sizes" will do, those tiny and tall figures in each pack are a bit strange). I still want to do a platoon- or company-size Delta City Law Defense Force, and I'd appreciate the variety.
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My preference is for 28mm size miniatures. However, there are no 20mm SWAT miniatures available, so I added that option to see if the lack of 20mm SWAT would be sufficient to justify making them in that scale. An added bonus would be the availabilty to 1:76 scale model kits and diecast cars. Nevertheless, the majority of people prefer 28mm.
Actually, that's not entirely correct. Elhiem makes a SWAT team in 20mm and some other interesting modern minis (like zombies..) There was also another maker of SWAT/terrorist types in 20mm, but I am not sure if they're still operating? Combat Miniatures, I believe?
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Jase, I didn't really expect you to make specific Dutch riot cops, to be honest. That's just too much of a niche within a niche...
But I would like to see some more European style kit for riot/swat troops. There's a distinct difference in style and kit between them and the American teams.
Seeing that the first responders, civvies, etc. seem to garner the most interest, maybe it would be an idea to consider doing them first?
More likelyhood to sell and break even your startup costs. And it'll get your starting company/line more attention than "another SWAT figure guy", I think.
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All the miniatures currently on the market either have too few poses, are oddly proportioned, have weird poses, too little detail and/or vague equipment. What I want is enough different poses to put together 3 or 4 teams (4 to 8-man teams) without duplicates, to give players flexibility in putting together their team. They would be in realistic poses that you would find in real SWAT too (no more shooting one way, while looking the other) Also, I want their equipment to resemble real weapons used by SWAT teams and their proportions to be accurate, so no more extra big heads and unwieldy long arms. (I’m not a big fan of separate heads, if only that I never seem to get them right).
I appreciate you don't want to talk about specific companies, or be seen to be criticising existing ranges (very sensible!), but have you seen the TAG range?
IMHO its very comprehensive, with dozens of figures, and the kit/poses are realistic.
Ultimately its your cash/your project so go with what you want to do.
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I would love to see rioters and protesters as well as wounded (walking as well as prone)
Already done very well by Offensive miniatures.
As I've said to a number of hopefuls now, get some first responders that actually look decent and you'll be onto a winner. Then go back and zombify them, but only when you've got them done and finished.
Good luck.
The Commander
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What he said.
;)
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Ooops...didn't see them, more lead in the pile :D
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One consideration might be regardless of the clique-theme would be having several options for hand-held weapons in general.
If nothing more than a sort of 'generic' (but detailed) hands assortment sprue available to make customization simpler for novice modelers as well as delight seasoned 'veterans'.
Having the option of knives, clubs, pistols or improvised offensive/defensive items should offer the basic models a wider range of applications and usage.
Best of luck !
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I'd like to see more "normal-looking" people, and kids, to become rescue and special goal targets.
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I've thought of this idea myself.
SWAT and First response police
Various gangs ie.
Latino gang (MS-13, Mexican Mafia etc), yakuza, Italian (or Russian) mafia, african-american (bloods, crips etc), biker gang (Hells Angels etc).
Who are your intended clients? Those in Europe or N. America? I personally get discouraged buying from UK because of dollar conversion and shipping costs. However, it the minis are good, I might get some.
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I agree... you should do the first responders first... paramedics, firemen, news crews etc. That will get you started and people will buy them. I already have so many SWAT and police that they would simply have to be the best SWAT on the market for me to buy them. However if you did first responders I would for sure get some if they are nice sculpts. And casualty miniatures... like two guys carrying a body bag, body bag on a gurney etc would sell very well since there are NONE on the market. Also wounded civilians and police for your first responders would be very nice and usable in modern games and zombie games.
Darkoath
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I agree... you should do the first responders first... paramedics, firemen, news crews etc. That will get you started and people will buy them. I already have so many SWAT and police that they would simply have to be the best SWAT on the market for me to buy them. However if you did first responders I would for sure get some if they are nice sculpts. And casualty miniatures... like two guys carrying a body bag, body bag on a gurney etc would sell very well since there are NONE on the market. Also wounded civilians and police for your first responders would be very nice and usable in modern games and zombie games.
Darkoath
That. is there really ANY paramedics in 28mm (if can match MegaMinis scale, it will be better) ?
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There has been some time between posts in this thread so I was wondering how the project was going (especially if there were some new first responders coming soon!). The idea of civilian and emergency services teams would seem to be a good one and people would pay for quality sculpts. I never dreamed I would pay £5 for a 28mm figure until guys like Commander Vyper and Akula introduced me to Hasslefree, but having pondered available figures for weeks decided that the character and quality of their survivors was probably worth the money.
It would be great to have more European type figures too (Hasslefree's Hot Fuzz police and riot cop and Offensive Miniatures riot police appear to be an exception to the US style figures that are more normally available).
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Paramedics, civilians, firefighters etc. are things I need most.
I have a number of SWAT figures that I use for military, corporate security and SWAT, I would probably buy your's to if I liked them but the civilians are what I have the hardest time finding.
Most of Mine are Foundry West Wind and TAG so as long as they fit in with them I would be interested.
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Have you looked at "Lead Bones"/recreationalconflicts SPRU includes 8 armed swat types plus Hazmat, K9 and helio pilots. They also have armed/unarmed civilians.