Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Interwar => Topic started by: The Gray Ghost on 13 July 2010, 10:33:25 PM
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I am thinking about making an Irish army.
Any thoughts about Them, I don't know very much about them during this period.
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Are you looking at making up a force of Army Regulars or IRA style units in civilian and mix and match misc. military equipment?
Prof
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This thread might be useful:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=10131.0
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I have been trying to find sutable mins for them myself.
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I have been trying to find sutable mins for them myself.
They don't exist.
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Mostly interested in regulars with some volunteers mixed in.
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Pictoral History of the Irish Defence Forces:
http://www.military.ie/dfhq/pubrel/publications/DFHistory.pdf
Some uniform information (which happens to be correct):
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090610141518AAmClE0
Irish Defences since 1922 - Osprey:
http://books.google.com/books?id=7jmEdoVKIUwC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=irish+defence+forces+order+of+battle+1930&source=bl&ots=ZYXFOYIo5K&sig=eZC9nbEx4qUfAIiBdp5I18L-lRw&hl=en&ei=ZhY9TNCOBcGB8gaC27CnBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
Irish Army Organisation 1939-45
http://www.patriotfiles.com/index.php?name=Sections&req=viewarticle&artid=6708&page=1
Link gives a good list of vehicles used.
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and there was I ready to post "The guy who could help you most doesn't seem to be around much any more". Sometimes it's good to be wrong. :)
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Yeah, Gallowglass, good to see you back!
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They don't exist.
Your best bet might be head swaps between Brit bodies and German heads from any Great War range. Ok the collars aren't right and IIRC the Irish tended to wear leather leggings rather than puttees but if you aren't too obsessive..... The German style Vickers helmet, '08 webbing and SMLE are probably the most defining aspects anyway.
Of course your other option would be to do an Eoin O'Duffy style fascist Irish army. Famously or rather infamously, his Blueshirts participated in the SCW on the side of Franco and the nationalists, although without any particular distinction. Dear old Brendan Behan famously quipped that they were the only contingent that returned with more men than they set out. :)
Personally I'd be more inclined to go for a clerical militia based on Craggy Island.
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Your best bet might be head swaps between Brit bodies and German heads from any Great War range. Ok the collars aren't right and IIRC the Irish tended to wear leather leggings rather than puttees but if you aren't too obsessive..... The German style Vickers helmet, '08 webbing and SMLE are probably the most defining aspects anyway.
Of course your other option would be to do an Eoin O'Duffy style fascist Irish army. Famously or rather infamously, his Blueshirts participated in the SCW on the side of Franco and the nationalists, although without any particular distinction.
For Option 1, consider Gripping Beast/The Woodbine Design Company's "Great war in the East" range - British in serge dress, use say the Ottoman stahlhelm instead of British heads, bit of greenstuff over the puttees to turn them into leather leggings, and fiddle with the collars if you want to be really obsessive. However, as this is a "fantasy" Irish army from the 1930s, it hardly matters what the collars looked like....... 8)
As for Duffy's Incompetents, Empress Miniatures' Spanish nationalist regulars as a sort of "Irish foreign legion" would be a good fit. Given the berets worn by the Blueshirts, I think the Carlist berets might also be a nice touch.
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I have honistly been thinking about trying out Option 1 fro awhile now. :D
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What color were the Blueshirts berets?
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Here's some sites:
http://www.monaghan.ie/websitev2/museum/oduffyuniform.html
Well I looked on a Google search, but saw so many neo-Nazi sites I gave up in despair. I thought those hate-mongers were gone, but they seem to parade their filth quite openly............
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Wikepedia page on the Blueshirts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts
Girrl's Blueshirt Uniform:
http://www.adams.ie/BidCat/detail.asp?SaleRef=7027&LotRef=440
Male uniform:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e202/a6skin9/123456006.jpg)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rBGeWY-Z_hk/SjU6JfgTZOI/AAAAAAAAA00/NDAMUZw04Rc/s320/blueshirts.gif)
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Jesus wept, that takes the f*#king biscuit! There are re-enactors who play dress ups as O'Duffy's fascists? (no I don't mean Fine Gael) What kind of gormless knobgobbler would want to associate themselves? Leaving aside the politics, the contingent to Spain had to go down as probably the most hapless and inept military force to leave Ireland. Most of their casualties were of the own goal variety, inflicted by nominal friendlies and at one point they effectively went on strike and refused to enter the front lines. Even for the let's play dress ups brigade, fond of playing Confederates and Waffen SS, this is truly weird territory to inhabit.
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This is not the worst, some of those sites are evil. An American on one said that he had supported the IRA and it was good to see that an English speaking group had the guts to fight International Zionism....... But I think I am heading into difficult waters here...........
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Yeah lets keep it politc light, i think we have all lived long enugh to relise that yes there are crazy bigots out there, and they are also on the internet. Now What I want to know is who is going to be the first to try out that GrippingBeast English Surge uniformed bodys and turkish stahlhelm/ Vickers stahlhelm helments. I would but my am hopelessly backloged with my projects. :(
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This is not the worst, some of those sites are evil. An American on one said that he had supported the IRA and it was good to see that an English speaking group had the guts to fight International Zionism....... But I think I am heading into difficult waters here...........
Even more difficult in that I'm a firm believer in Rule 34. :-I
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wow I dont even know what that means.
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never mind, just looked it up....shudders :'(
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Personally I'd be more inclined to apply rule .303
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Ok that's enough distractions! I am going to send a message off to the good folks at Gripping beast and see if I cant get some of those headless Englishmen in serge and some german style helmets for the interwar years and a few in soft caps for the civil-war.
I have tons of flying column blokes just sitting on there thumbs waiting to get panted, and my class's end on the 29th! Time to get panting :D
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You know from looking at the Blue shirts, I am thinking they would be easy to recreate using the Auxiliary mins from Musketeer.
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Any one have a list of what type of armor(armed-cars, tanks) Artillery, ships and Aircraft that the IDF had dearing this time? And if so any pics so i know what color to paint them?
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It was contained in one of Gallowglass's links. But a quick praese would be Rolls Royce aroured cars, a few old Peerless A/Cs some Landsverks in the latter part of the thirties and one Vickers Type C for demonstration evaluation purposes ( ooks a bit like a Japanese Type 89, which was essentially a copy).
Aircraft include Bristol Fighters, DH-9s a few Avro 504s. Eire has never been exactly lavish in terms of it's defence budget and much of it's kit came in teh form of hand me downs from Britain.
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I found these:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TEaZgz5j_xI/AAAAAAAABWM/uZitPR7fcNs/s720/Irish%20Army.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TEaaQ7PRa3I/AAAAAAAABWQ/8kdNnhIAUNk/gladiator_eire_1.jpg)
One of four Gloster Gladiators delivered from 1937. They were numbered 23-26.
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Is it me or do those helmets lack any liners to give them a nice fit? They seem to be a roaming all over their heads. lol
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They're sitting too high to not have liners, but that doesn't mean to say that they are properly adjusted. I didn't notice it before you said though. lol
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Their ears prop them up. ;)
Actually Vickers sold the Irish a real lemon. The helmets were made of an inferior alloy and weren't splinter proof apparently . Fortunately they had swapped them for British style battle bowlers by the outbreak of the Second World War , oops the 'Emergency'.
And now for some fun trivia.
Anyone care to name the Western European government whose leader sent a personal note of commiseration to the Nazis upon the death of Adolf? Here's a hint: he was a US citizen and his first name was Eamon....
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Do please consult the links already provided on the first page of this thread, gentlemen.
The Irish Cavalry Corps 1939-45
Armoured Car Corps was consituted in August 1922 with HQ at Dublin.
Nine armoured car companies were created with a varying number of cars.
Corps HQ moved to The Curragh in 1924 and organization reduced to a HQ and four companies
One Company at The Curragh
One Company at Dublin
One Company in Cork
One Company in Athlone
All companies moved to The Curragh in 1925.
Vehicle strength after the move was:
13 Rolls Royce Armoured Cars
7 Peerless Armoured Cars
64 Lancia Armoured Cars
A Vickers Medium C Tank purchased in England in 1929
Depot (recruit training unit) and a school were added in 1931
Separate companies were joined into the 1st Armoured Squadron also in 1931
1st Cyclist Squadron was added in 1933
Name changed to the Cavalry Corps in 1933 at the same time as 1st Cyclist Squadron added.
After 1933 reorganization the Cavalry Corps included the following:
1st Armoured Car Squadron
2nd Armoured Car Squadron (Cadre)
1st Cyclist Squadron
1st Horse Squadron
2nd Horse Squadron
School and Workshops
Volunteer Force (a reserve)
19 Cyclist Squadrons
6 Horse Squadrons
5 sub-depots
Note - Horse Squadrons had all ranks mounted on bicycles
Four Leyland Terrier chassis were purchased in 1933
Turrets purchased from Landsverk of Sweden
Engines replaced by Ford engines
In 1936 eight Landsverk L180 Armoured Cars and two Landswerk L60A Light Tanks purchased.
Four, six and eight-cylindered Ford Light Trucks with M-Gs purchased starting in 1939
These vehicles were called 'Bug Chasers' and formed into motor squadrons as reconnaissance
units, one for each infantry brigade
1st Motor Squadron in 1939 included the following:
Four Reconnaissance Troops
Each troop had five cars and 15 motorcycles
Later, an armoured troop with four Landsverk and Rolls Royce ACs temporarily detached from
1st and 2nd Armoured Squadrons replaced one reconnaissance troop in this and subsequent
squadrons
Six more motor squadrons formed during WWII.
Lancias had been withdrawn from service by WWII.
2nd and 3rd Armoured Squadrons were formed in 1941.
Armed with Leyland, Lansverk, Rolls Royce, Dodge and Ford Armoured Cars
Carrier Squadron formed in WWII equipped with British Universal Carriers
Four more Landsverk L180s were ordered from Sweden but fell into German hands
4th Armoured Squadron formed in 1944
Equipped with 40 of several Marks of British Beaverette Armoured Cars
Personnel came from disbanded Carrier Squadron. 26 carriers turned over to infantry units.
All units listed above were formed into 1st Armoured Regiment in 1942
This was for large-scale maneuvers and not used after that.
After the war the Cavalry Establishment reduced to:
Headquarters
School and Workshops
one armoured car squadron
one motor squadron
Summary of Irish Marks for Armoured Cars and other vehicles:
Mark I 1920 Rolls Royce called Whippets - 13 obtained
Mark II 1936 Landsverk L180 - 8 purchased
Mark III 1933 Mark II type hull mounted on Leyland chassis
Mark IV 1938 Ford 1.5 ton
Mark V 1938 Fored 122-in. - 14 built
Mark VI 1938 MkV with Vickers M-G on Landsverk turret
Mark VII 1939 Dodge 30 hp with Landsverk turret
Mark VIII Mark VII with Vickers 50 cal M-G and .303 cal M-G
Mark IX British Beaverette of various marks - 40 purchased
Peerless 1921, 7 from British - Armor used by other vechicles after 1934
Lancia 1922, - 64 obtained - withdrawn from served by WWII
Crossley Tender 1922, Open topped utility cars
Ford 1934-39, Bug Chasers
Landsverk L60A Tank Two purchased from Sweden
Vickers Medium D Tank 1929, one purchased from Britain
Universal Carrier 26 purchased from England
Other equipment:
http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/equip.htm
Irish Army AFVs:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/da/Irish_Army_Rolls-Royce_Armoured_Car_Co._Cork_1941.jpg)
This photograph is dated as 1941. I have my doubts about that. I think it's much more likely to come from the 1930s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army_Armoured_Fighting_Vehicles
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I found these:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TEaZgz5j_xI/AAAAAAAABWM/uZitPR7fcNs/s720/Irish%20Army.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TEaaQ7PRa3I/AAAAAAAABWQ/8kdNnhIAUNk/gladiator_eire_1.jpg)
One of four Gloster Gladiators delivered from 1937. They were numbered 23-26.
Thanks for the pic's, I am just guessing the guys with 2nd from the left was not informed that he could ajust his chin strap, don't really know what the other Joe's are up to....
And thinks for the list GG vary helpful.
And for any one interested I talked to the guys the GB and they said they would be more then happy to toss what ever type of heads you wanted in to your woodbine design order. Just tell them when you place the order.
So I predict some time in next month I should have my first order on the way.
:D
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If any one is interested I found this while looking threw the Gentlemen's war pallor site.
http://gwargamesp.18.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=2429&st=0
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I understand that Reiver are bringing out Irish Free State troops soon;
http://reivercasting.wordpress.com/
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Figures they would do that after I just sent off an order to Gripping beast. lol
How well to the Reiver mins stack up to musketeer and Woodbin designs?