Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Tannenberg on 07 September 2010, 12:34:25 PM
-
Hello chaps, I'm wondering if any-one can help me here....I'm looking for pictorial referrences of Vichy French Moroccan Spahis....the more the merrier :)
I'd also be interested to know what their platoon make-up was, weapons used, uniforms, etc.
Cheers,
Marco
-
If you know some French:
Musee de Spahis
http://a.senlis.free.fr/ams01.html
I imagine you've seen the movie "Days of Glory"(?). A great film about Algerians fighting in North Africa, Italy and France. Realistic like Saving Private Ryan.
-
I imagine you've seen the movie "Days of Glory"(?).
The original French title is Indigènes.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/Indig-film.jpg)
This is somewhere (again) where H. and I part company. I thought it was a bloody awful film. Worthy enough idea to tell the story of the contribution against Nazism made by a largely forgotten group of soldiers. But that alone does not a watchable film make. Disappointed. :(
-
Perhaps 'great' is an exaggeration, just as I find 'awful' an exaggeration. I enjoyed it on the merits of portraying an ethnic group in the war. It is however lacking in direction and drama.
Now, I admit that it is certainly not a Saving Private Ryan film, but it is *not* a "Misfit Brigade" film either which is my definition of bloody awful. >:D
(http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1010/300220.1010.A.jpg)
(A shit film based on a even shittier book using Russian tanks as a shit-poor proxy German tank killers).
-
Thanks for the pointer Hammers....The Armed Forces of World War Two book has an excellent image of one, but seems to be the only one I can find. My French is extremely rusty....in fact, rusty would be an understatement, lol I will soldier on though. Thanks again for your help, which is very much appreciated :)
-
If I am not mistaken there should be an image is the Osprey MAA title covering the Vichy forces. I will check when I return to base camp Traveller by the end of the week
-
Hi there traveller!
Thank you very much for your help here. Does this particular Osprey publication have information on how the platoons were made up?
Anyway, I will await your reply at the end of the week :)
Many thanks :)
-
I would doubt they have details on platoon level. If you are lucky there might be images that could be interesting. This is the title I am thinking of:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=1855326663
-
Once again Traveller, thank you for your help here :) It looks like it could just do the job!!! Any further pointers for information on the Vichy French Moroccan Spahis will be very much appreciated. :)
-
Locked up in my hotel with nothing better to do I found this in a google search for the Allied Spahis, if the source can be trusted, would be strange if the Vichy ones had be organised differently already in 1940:
Escadron de Spahis (Cavalry Company) (Mechanised Company)
On the 30 of June 1940. Captain Jourdier and his Escadron de Spahis Marocains escaped from Syria to
join the British troops in Palestine. This company also includes the famous Escadron Tchekeress.
- Rated Colonial
- A Free French Cavalry Squadron consists of 1 Company HQ, 1-4 Cavalry Platoons and 0-
2 Spahis Portes Platoons (not for Escadron Tchekeress)
· Company HQ: Company Command Rifle team, 2ic Command Rifle team, 2 Light
Trucks with optional AAMG for 30 points. The Command teams are mounted in the
Escadron Tchekeress for -10 points.
· Cavalry Platoons: Command Rifle/MG team (mounted), 2-3 Cavalry Sections each
of 3 Rifle/MG teams (mounted). Full strength: 155 points, 2 Sections: 110 points.
· Spahis Portes Platoons: Command Rifle/MG team, Anti-tank Rifle team, Light Truck
with AAMG, 2-3 Sections each of 2 Rifle/MG teams and Light Truck with AAMG.
Source: http://membres.multimania.fr/casawargame/download/ewfrench.pdf
-
I would also doubt that they were organised any differently than their 1940's counterparts. My source for all things French 1940 is oddly enough entitled... France 1940 (http://france1940.free.fr/en_index.html)
-
Traveller and Jim....thank you both for your pointers and the links. 'France 1940'...this is an excellent source of information (!!!)....funny how you always over look the most simple and obvious of titles/links. Once again thanks for this :)
-
By the way chaps, if you ever come across any more photos or images, on the web, of the French Vichy Spahis, then that would be something more than fantabulous! :) Thanks again.
-
By the way chaps, if you ever come across any more photos or images, on the web, of the French Vichy Spahis, then that would be something more than fantabulous! :) Thanks again.
I got something for you. Send me a PM with your email ;)
-
The necessary details have been sent on to you my good man ;)
-
Artizan sell Goumiers and have a painting guide:
http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/GoumiersWW2.pdf
-
Artizan sell Goumiers and have a painting guide:
http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/GoumiersWW2.pdf
Hi joroas,
Thank you too for the information and link....again, a most useful addition :)
-
I got something for you. Send me a PM with your email ;)
Hi Traveller,
I received the email with all the little goodies....very, very useful stuff there....a repeated BIG thank-you :D
-
Les Indegines is a GREAT movie - watch it if you can find a copy.
-
Les Indegines is a GREAT movie - watch it if you can find a copy.
Hi Sepoy....good to hear from you! Yes, a number of people have actually recommended this film so it'll be something I'll have to add to my collection.
On a slight distraction here, I noticed the French used the Gnome et Rhones AX2 motorcycle combo. You wouldn't by any chance know of any pictorial pointers for this machine?
-
Hi to all,
Indigènes is a good movie. Not great, but good nonetheless. It's not Band of Brothers or the horrible, horrible Unglorious Basterds, it doesn't have that much "action" in it. It's closer to a movie like Stalingrad in terms of pacing and action-versus-introspection ratio. Still, if you're interested in Morrocan Spahis, I think it's the best (or, sadly, only...) movie reference you can get.
Yours truly,
Sir Dryden
-
Hi to all,
Indigènes is a good movie. Not great, but good nonetheless. It's not Band of Brothers or the horrible, horrible Unglorious Basterds, it doesn't have that much "action" in it. It's closer to a movie like Stalingrad in terms of pacing and action-versus-introspection ratio. Still, if you're interested in Morrocan Spahis, I think it's the best (or, sadly, only...) movie reference you can get.
Yours truly,
Sir Dryden
Thank you Sir Dryden. Yes, it does sadly look like it may be the only movie reference I would manage to get, which is a pity.
-
Realistic like Saving Private Ryan.
Thing I like about you Hammers is that you have a very dry sense of wit. :)
-
Right then chaps, I've been studying the organisation of the Spahis units on the 'France 1940' site http://france1940.free.fr/armee/dlc.html
It says 'The North African Brigade de Spahi was organised in the same way as the DLC's cavalry brigade'.
The organisation was as follows....''The cavalry squadrons each had four platoons of thirty-six men. These were organised into one platoon HQ of four men, two thirteen-man groupes de combat (sections), each with two half-sections of six men, one of fusiliers (riflemen) with a Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine-gun and one of éclaireurs (scouts) with a VB rifle grenade launcher, commanded by an NCO plus one extra escouade (half-section) of fusiliers per platoon''.
Another source gave details for the Spahis, in Vichy French service, in North Africa, as ''a total of 2000 horsemen/lorried infantry with a few armoured cars''.
Question a: were the Spahis fusiliers and éclaireurs lorried?
Question b: what armoured cars would have been used or would it have been a case of them possibly using the AMR33 or AMC35???
-
The Spahis Brigade was just two regiments of Cavalry in 1940, without any attached units, as was a normal cavalry brigade. The integral MG and AT weapons were horse towed and the mortars on pack horses. The lorried infantry, armoured cars etc. were added at divisional level in the cavalry. I'm guessing that some later attempt was made to form a cavalry division or reinforced brigade, hence the mention of armoured cars and lorried infantry, or it could just be attached segments of other units.
The 'AMC' was the Citroen Kegresse P16, the 'AMR' was the C-K P28 (apparently similar to the P16) and the 'AMD' the Laffly 50 AM (or WW1 vintage White armoured cars refitted to the same standard), which equipped most of the Metropolitan Cavalry Divisions in 1940, the few AMR 33 & 35 that survived 1940 were taken by the Germans. Barely any AMC 35 made it into service (except with the Belgians), Germany once more taking the survivors.
I also found this (http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/942FKAA.pdf), a rundown of Vichy deployments in 1942.
-
Hi Jim, many thanks for the information there...there's some pretty interesting and very useful stuff there :)
The other source I had mentioned (2000 horsemen/infantry) was from a Vichy French OB in Syria, at the time, or there abouts, of Operation Torch.
I've been trawling the net for as much info as possible on the unit breakdown for the French Vichy Spahis in that particular area of operations.....my curiosity is getting very much the better of me with regards to the 'lorried infantry' side of things and it would be great to dig a little deeper :)
Very interesting too about the 'AMC' and the 'AMR' info.
You're a goldmine of knowledge Jim and once again, thank you for your help :)
-
Your welcome! :)
I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things. There are some good accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941 in Wikipedia (source of all knowledge, or at least a starting point), which may lead you towards the answers you seek. I know there was one Spahi unit there, which lost a few men when they skipped into Palestine to join the Free French. The remainder were shipped back to North Africa at some point.
The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason... :)
-
I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things.
Oh god, not a very Gallic Civil War. Visons of 'no no, Mr Sartre the brioche is clearly superior to the petit pain'
The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason... :)
Well there's always Oran or Mers el Kebir ;)
-
Your welcome! :)
I got interested in the French from researching the Middle East for VBCW of all things. There are some good accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941 in Wikipedia (source of all knowledge, or at least a starting point), which may lead you towards the answers you seek. I know there was one Spahi unit there, which lost a few men when they skipped into Palestine to join the Free French. The remainder were shipped back to North Africa at some point.
The prospect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war is very appealing for some reason... :)
Yes, I've sort of caught the bug in respect of a French vs Commonwealth setting for early war too....It would make a really nice change to the usual DAK vs Monty and his lads scenario.
As you suggeted, I will also be looking further into the accounts of the Syrian-Lebanon Campaign of 1941....definitely looking forward to learning a bit more about the whole thing :) Other than Wikipedia, are there any other books, which cover this particular campaign, that could be recommended?
I've also noticed there are one or two books which cover the 1e Spahis Morocain...unfortunately they're in French and my comprehension of the French language, at this moment in time, is not at its best :)
-
England's Last War with France (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-War-Against-France/dp/0753827050/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284434144&sr=1-1) by Colin Smith is the only book I know specifically on the war with Vichy. Not having read it I can't comment, but it is on my to buy list.
If you think finding sources in English is hard, try sourcing the figures! British and Free French aren't to difficult, but the French are non-existent as far as I know, whatever the scale. It's going to be hard to pass off figures in greatcoats for the Levant in Summer. :?
-
It get's quite cool in the mountains. especially of an evening. Lebanon used to market Beirut as somewhere that you could ski in the morning and go the beach in the afternoon. There is plate in one of the Osprey's that shows a wonderful combiantion of greatcoat and shorts, topped off with a tropical helmet.
If you were doing Vichy North Africa in 1/72 then the old Itaeleri French were basically wearing Vichy uniforms of the 1941/42 pattern. This caused a lot of confusion amongst collectors when they first came out.
In 28mm I'd suggest suitable Free French in shorts with head swaps for tropical helmets. Artizan and IIRc Empress both do some for their Italian ranges. They won't be quite right but near enough is good enough.
-
England's Last War with France (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Englands-Last-War-Against-France/dp/0753827050/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284434144&sr=1-1) by Colin Smith is the only book I know specifically on the war with Vichy. Not having read it I can't comment, but it is on my to buy list.
If you think finding sources in English is hard, try sourcing the figures! British and Free French aren't to difficult, but the French are non-existent as far as I know, whatever the scale. It's going to be hard to pass off figures in greatcoats for the Levant in Summer. :?
It's such a pity that there's such a difficulty in sourcing books and figures for this more than interesting campaign. However, I've taken the step of getting in touch, via email, with 'La Légion étrangère'. So fingers crossed, I will get a reply from them in the not so distant future :)
I think I will wait for a structured review of 'England's Last War with France' before I will add this to my ever increasing pile of books :D
Anything I get back from 'La Légion étrangère', I'll post here on the site or pass it on to all those interested :)
-
It get's quite cool in the mountains. especially of an evening. Lebanon used to market Beirut as somewhere that you could ski in the morning and go the beach in the afternoon. There is plate in one of the Osprey's that shows a wonderful combiantion of greatcoat and shorts, topped off with a tropical helmet.
If you were doing Vichy North Africa in 1/72 then the old Itaeleri French were basically wearing Vichy uniforms of the 1941/42 pattern. This caused a lot of confusion amongst collectors when they first came out.
In 28mm I'd suggest suitable Free French in shorts with head swaps for tropical helmets. Artizan and IIRc Empress both do some for their Italian ranges. They won't be quite right but near enough is good enough.
Well worth investigating further, with regards to your suggestions, for the figures there. However, I'd probabaly end up with a knife and some putty to make them look more the part. Mmmm, going to Beirut for some skiing in the morning and then the beach in the afternoon sounds splendid :)
-
Without a doubt it can get damn cold there. The only drawback is if you've got your Brits etc in shorts, the French will look odd in greatcoats.
Good call by Carlos on using the Empress tropical helmet on Free French, your Legionnaires would probably be identical for both sides in any case. It will be likely to be a case of mix and match, but Empress also do Adrian helmets too, which is helpful. It will make for a very unique collection.
Info is always useful to someone, so please do share anything La Legion sends! :)
-
Evening all :)
I have a little question about our Spahis friends....was the number two of the Chatellerault FM 24/29 light machine-gun team only armed with a pistol or would he have been armed like everyone else in their platoon.....and would he have carried the haversack with the ammunition magazines or would the gunner have?....I know, a silly question, but I'm curious, lol
-
As I understand it, the No.2 should also have carried a pistol and would have carried the ammunition. In fact I imagine that all of the members of the demi-group containing the weapon would have carried extra ammo for it. However I recall reading somewhere that pistols were in short supply and that a rifle or carbine was issued instead... can't recall where though.
-
As I understand it, the No.2 should also have carried a pistol and would have carried the ammunition. In fact I imagine that all of the members of the demi-group containing the weapon would have carried extra ammo for it. However I recall reading somewhere that pistols were in short supply and that a rifle or carbine was issued instead... can't recall where though.
Thanks for that Jim. I also read somewhere that the French produced the excellent M1892 revolver but in very low numbers as the production of small arms was not given the highest of priorities. Because of this, they brought in the Spanish produced Ruby pistol to make up for the lack of sidearms. The carrying of a rifle or carbine would make excellent sense as well. Making an educated guess here, I'd say the No2 of the Chatellerault FM 24/29, in the Spahis demi-group, would also be kitted out with the bandolier and carrying his MAS 36.
I've also just received a copy of the Osprey 'Men-at-Arms' book 'The French Army 1939-45' (book one). It's a pretty good one and on page 35, it gives a lovely little break-down of a 'groupe de combat' with who was carrying what...excellent stuff!!!
-
I have another little question....was the Havresac mod. 1924 worn around the waist or over the shoulder (or both)? I think I am in danger of becoming an anorak, lol, but once more, the unquenchable desire for knowledge is biting at my heels lol.
-
Only 'in danger' of becoming an anorak? I think you should be able to wear one with pride by now. ;)
I haven't a clue to be honest, but if I had to take a guess, or carry one myself, it would be over the shoulder. Less uncomfortable and easier to put on and take off.
The carrying of a rifle or carbine would make excellent sense as well. Making an educated guess here, I'd say the No2 of the Chatellerault FM 24/29, in the Spahis demi-group, would also be kitted out with the bandolier and carrying his MAS 36.
Bear in mind that the whole demi-group's task was to keep the LMG functional, be it carrying ammo for it, or ensuring its protection. The two or three man LMG team would be a new concept this early in the war and you should think in the context that the whole demi-group should be considered 'the LMG team'. So although there was a No.1 and a No.2 for the weapon, the other guys were also tasked with supporting roles, be it as ammo mules, or just watching their backs.
Being colonial units I'd suspect that the Lebel or Berthier would be the likely rifles or carbines carried, I understand that the MAS36 wasn't about in any great numbers outside of the prestige formations like the DLMs and first line metropolitan troops.
-
Only 'in danger' of becoming an anorak? I think you should be able to wear one with pride by now. ;)
I haven't a clue to be honest, but if I had to take a guess, or carry one myself, it would be over the shoulder. Less uncomfortable and easier to put on and take off.
Yes, that's what I thought, but there's some pics from a lovely little French site (here's the link to the particular page I'm looking at.....
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20chatellerault%20fm%2024%2029%20havresac%201924%20fr%20gb.htm
The second and third photos seem to make it look as if it were worn round the waist....
As to the anorak side of things, I fancy a nice yellow one, lol.
-
Perhaps it was both then, to distribute the weight better? That aside it's quite an impressive bit of kit, I'm looking for a Louis Vitton label somewhere. ;)
That will be another anorak over here too then... lol
-
Perhaps it was both then, to distribute the weight better? That aside it's quite an impressive bit of kit, I'm looking for a Louis Vitton label somewhere. ;)
That will be another anorak over here too then... lol
lol Maybe we should start a 'Best Anorak' award at some point...worth thinking about lol
Have you ever seen any pics of an 8mm Hotchkiss machine gun mounted on a Mle1911 m.38 horse drawn carriage???? This is proving to be a very very hard nut to crack....as is trying to find pics for the Mle1937 cavalry limber.
-
This might be the one...
http://www.tgca.net/french_connection_ii.htm
It's possible that the '37 model might just have had pneumatic tyres fitted?
Other than that I can't help, sorry :(
-
This might be the one...
http://www.tgca.net/french_connection_ii.htm
It's possible that the '37 model might just have had pneumatic tyres fitted?
Other than that I can't help, sorry :(
That's a pretty interesting set-up with the Hotchkiss....I will have to make further investigations into this....I have seen something that had wagon wheels on it (the photos I have looks pre-Great War) and then there's one which is closer to the WW2 period with pneumatic tyres on it. I have now recieved some very useful information from Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France. It includes a very interesting photo of some Spahis with the Hotchkiss set up and ready...in the background are pack horses which have been used to transport it....and not an Mle1911 m.38 horse drawn carriage. If you're interested, would you like to send me your email address, via the sites splendid pm facility, and I can pass on the info? I've tried to insert the images on here, but, unfortunately, without any luck or success.
-
Hi Macro
Here is all i could find
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=158723
-
Hi Macro
Here is all i could find
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=112&t=158723
Thanks Dave......another piece of very useful and always handy information :) I will be getting back in touch with Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France with regards to the Hotchkiss mounted on a horse drawn carriage. The photo you've brought my attention to looks very, very interesting indeed. It would be nice to know if this one was actually used in North Africa. I have to admit, the carriage does look remarkably like the one I've seen in the only photo I've managed to hunt down on the web, but with pneumatic tyres instead of the wooden spoked wheels.
-
Well found David! Even if it is the 13.2mm HMG version. :)
Pack horses were the usual means of conveyance for the Hotchkiss in the Spanish Army in the 20s and 30s, so makes sense that they would be in the French too. In the Spanish army each weapon had 4 horses or mules to carry the weapon and ammo, with 11 men to serve the weapon, handle the animals, fetch and carry, and act as 'security' when the weapon was deployed.
With regard to cart-wheels and tyres, this was due to the process of mechanisation. Most cart-wheels were found to be too fragile to be towed behind motor transport, so most towed weapons had to be converted, along with their limbers. In the SCW this wasn't possible, so weapons were carried on the truck beds instead. In some cases the conversion resulted in a brand-new carriage or limber, in others just a bicycle type spoked wheel with tyres replaced the cart-wheel type.
-
Well found David! Even if it is the 13.2mm HMG version. :)
Pack horses were the usual means of conveyance for the Hotchkiss in the Spanish Army in the 20s and 30s, so makes sense that they would be in the French too. In the Spanish army each weapon had 4 horses or mules to carry the weapon and ammo, with 11 men to serve the weapon, handle the animals, fetch and carry, and act as 'security' when the weapon was deployed.
With regard to cart-wheels and tyres, this was due to the process of mechanisation. Most cart-wheels were found to be too fragile to be towed behind motor transport, so most towed weapons had to be converted, along with their limbers. In the SCW this wasn't possible, so weapons were carried on the truck beds instead. In some cases the conversion resulted in a brand-new carriage or limber, in others just a bicycle type spoked wheel with tyres replaced the cart-wheel type.
Yes, Dave's done a great job with regards to hunting this one down :) I've managed to get some more pics of the Mle1911 (which should now be in your posession and of which Dave will soon have too, lol). They look as if they were taken before WW1 and they're pretty good shots as well. Even better, the images show the Hotchkiss mounted on it. When I was searching for this, nothing was really coming up until I typed (in French) ''la voiture porte-mitrailliesue de cavalerie modele 1911''. A bit of a mouthful, especially when your French is extremely rusty. I will now have to make a point of brushing up on this particular language!!!! lol
-
Hi Marco here are the french guns the Greeks used
Hellenic Canon 75mm M1908 Schneider.jpg (61.26 KiB) Viewed 1151 times
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=158435
Show ? french limber since i would think they would buy the limber as well as the gun?
David
-
Marco has sent me the pics to share with anyone interested in this. I've attempted to fill in on the descriptions where possible. Apologies for the ones that aren't strictly WW2, but they are connected.
Theoretical structure of a Regiment de Spahis.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJmR8tP1I/AAAAAAAAB0E/0Bfc7F_BmJ4/s640/Tableau%20d%27effectifs%20%282%29.jpg)
The Machine Gun Squadron appears to have 2 horse-borne machine gun sections (platoons) a 37mm (Puteaux) peloton (section/squad) and two 25mm AT gun pelotons, all horse borne. I'd imagine that the two AT Guns were actually towed behind the Mlle 1911 limber.
Each squadron has a 60mm mortar team, which is also likely to have been transported using the Mlle 1911 limber.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZI1rdYjCI/AAAAAAAABzI/fH3A8BTnesw/s720/avant_10.jpg)
The relevant bits of info here are that the same model of limber was used for the 25mm AT Gun, the 60mm Mortar and the 8mm Hotchkiss MG. It would seem that the original wood and iron wheels were replaced with the ones shown in the picture above and a simple spar alteration made the limber suitable for either horse or vehicle towing as appropriate on the 1937 type. My French is far from perfect, so someone speak up if I'm in error here!
The next three pics show the earlier type of carriage for the 8mm, which doesn't appear to be the same as the one shown above. Marco thinks they are WW1 or before, and I'd have to agree with him there. It's of course possible that it is the same, but the pneumatic tired wheels make it sit lower than the larger spoked ones. The mg mounted one does share a few similarities that could be attributed to modernising the original design.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJDer-buI/AAAAAAAABzc/HIIhEpKZPpQ/s800/mitrailleuse1912.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJC624JDI/AAAAAAAABzU/OJBPgvTj7Io/s800/jul0104.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJlw6aCvI/AAAAAAAAB0A/WHkjygHvRLk/StEtienneCav1.jpg)
Not the same mount, but this is the 13.2mm Hotchkiss of about the same period imo.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJCxCzj3I/AAAAAAAABzQ/4L8Hc2eM5yY/Hotchkiss%202.jpg)
This is a good shot of a horse and mule borne Hotchkiss team. The animal arrowed is a mule, while the saddled ones are horses. I think that it is likely that, in the Rif and highland terrain of Morocco and Algeria, the carriage wasn't used. Alternatively it wasn't issued until the Spahis arrived in Europe.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJDJYKF8I/AAAAAAAABzY/ZW6uZYizArk/mitrailleuse.jpg)
I'm pretty sure this is a 25mm AT Gun team (the ammo boxes look like the 25mm ones anyway), but I'm guessing that it was taken in the Winter of 1939/40... were any Spahis deployed to Norway?
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZI0iBkPdI/AAAAAAAABzA/C8QAfuXdejo/2505008619_small_1.jpg)
The last group of pics are various ones taken of Spahis from between the Wars and up to mid WW2 (or therabouts).
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZI0Mn1UuI/AAAAAAAABy4/MQqiq6Pc56U/599__SPAHIS.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZI0Q6s2II/AAAAAAAABy8/EXoSMoNBxx0/s640/462910_com_spahisspain.jpg)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZI08XzV9I/AAAAAAAABzE/OhatCzPZMa8/a10yi5.jpg)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJCygsk_I/AAAAAAAABzM/XT0CmzcvlWY/BGEUST.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJOQ1XPFI/AAAAAAAABzg/a3UlAnSkEc8/mod.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJOgG_d5I/AAAAAAAABzk/xP2rRnpkD0c/pho1_209533.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJOyeucsI/AAAAAAAABzo/XbeEE06tgFw/SpahiRegiment.jpg)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJPKf406I/AAAAAAAABzs/K96MXtHiXwM/spahis.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJP3_W_mI/AAAAAAAABzw/mZJTVolCwaM/spahis.png)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJkzykYwI/AAAAAAAABz0/J4z12a_UrP0/s512/SPAHIS%20MAROCAINS.JPG)
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJlLUu1gI/AAAAAAAABz4/Ynk-S8DVaU0/spahis_3esc_3reg_350x225.jpg)
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_WG5alGp4ptY/TJZJlkCnfuI/AAAAAAAABz8/qvTEB20AGEE/spahis_bou-saada.gif)
-
Jim, many thanks for posting the pics on the forum :) I would totally agree with you about the Spahis when stationed in North Africa - they would've more than likely used mules or pack horses in the Rif and highland terrain of Morocco and Algeria. And, again, I would agree that the Spahis were not issued with the Mlle 1911 limber until they arrived in Europe.
On the excellent France 1940 site, which you kindly introduced me to :) (and for anyone interested, here's the link) http://france1940.free.fr/armee/dlc.html
I did spot a mention about how the 60mm mortars were transported "...and one mortar platoon with four 60mm mortars carried on pack horses''. No need to worry about the limbers then lol
A gold star to everyone lol.
I will also be back in touch with Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France, in the next day or so, to ask further questions :)
-
In one of the emails I've received from Daniel Guédras, he mentions that the Spahis regiment had 1 'canon de 37 sans recul'. My French isn't up to scratch so does anybody know what this is?
-
'Sans recul' is French for 'recoilless'. I suspect they mean the Mle 1916 37mm trench gun (http://www.landships.freeservers.com/37mm_gun.htm) rather than a recoilless rifle as we understand it.
-
Jim,
I suspect you are right but I'm fairly certain the Mle 1916 37mm trench gun certainly did recoil, however slightly that was . You can see the recuperator beneath the barrel so it would be an odd description. Another possible, albeit less likely, contender might be the earlier Hotchkiss Mle 1885 37mm cannon, which were without a recoil system, although obviously not recoilless. Some of these were used experimentally on Voisin pusher aeroplanes during the Great War.
If you look at this link you'll see the model inquestion with what appears to be the original mount fitted to the 'plane.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/HW29e.jpg
-
Carlos,
I've no doubt that the Mle 1916 did recoil and certainly it is an odd description to apply. I'm guessing the description has been used by Daniel Guédras as his interpretation of something he's seen or read and is likely to be in error. The organisation table he sent to Marco previously shows a Peloton in the weapons company marked 'C37', which to me says 'Canon 37mm', hence my going for the Mle 1916. I could also be wrong of course. :D
I'm boxing over my weight with regards to support weapons available, but I'm not aware of a widespread introduction of recoilless weapons before the Germans introduced the Leichtgeschütz 40. There were such weapons about just after WW1 as prototypes etc, but even if the French had dabbled in creating such a weapon, would they have deployed it with a colonial unit? I'm guessing not.
Given the Spahis' likely opponents pre-WW2, I would of thought that a 37mm light gun would've been ideal as a support weapon to dislodge tribesman from a rocky hillside strong point or a building and there were certainly a few of these weapons left over after WW1. Not as handy as a 75mm, but certainly more portable.
-
Thanks Carlos and Jim :) I had a look at the links you had both kindly provided. Last night, I had come across pictures of this piece in both tripod and on wheels mode but I just wasn't sure if it might be the one in question. I have emailed Daniel Guédras to ask him if he can provide us with more information with regards to what exactly the C37 was, as mentioned in the organisation table.
As a matter of interest Jim, I have also asked him if he can tell us if there were any Spahis deployed in Norway (as per the caption you had placed with the photo of the lads, at the 25mm AT gun). It would be very interesting if they had been :)
-
Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today. Mle 1916 is the most likley contnder and fortunately Old Glory make not one but two in 28mm. They might make plug ugly figures but their guns are quite nice.
IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.
I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.
-
Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today. Mle 1916 is the most likley contnder and fortunately Old Glory make not one but two in 28mm. They might make plug ugly figures but their guns are quite nice.
IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.
I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.
Carlos, do you, by any chance, happen to have any pics of the Old Glory Mle1916. I've been on their site and they don't seem to have any on show.
-
As a matter of interest Jim, I have also asked him if he can tell us if there were any Spahis deployed in Norway (as per the caption you had placed with the photo of the lads, at the 25mm AT gun). It would be very interesting if they had been :)
It could well have been taken in France during the Winter of 39/40 and probably was, I just like to cover all my bases before making a guess. :D
Turns out that the Mle 1916 was a combination of the Mle 1885 barrel with a Nordenfeldt breech and a recoil system. Well, at least according to one source I've read. Learned something new today.
That makes two of us then... though not many days go by here when I don't learn something new... :)
IIRC the only real users of recoilless weapons during the interwar years were the Soviets, although of course the RNAS had experimented with RCLs as an aircraft mount during the war. I seem to recall that Mr Burney and his wonderful devices came along later.
That's my understanding too.
I must have RCLs on the brain, I'm currently working out how I am going to scratchbuild a MOBAT and a Soviet B10 in 28mm.
Don't Mongrel do a B10 in their Arab Range? I haven't seen their 'Arab Militia with Recoilless Rifle' so I can't tell you what type it is. I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't one out there somewhere. :?
-
I have just received an email from Ltc Daniel Guédras who has basically confirmed what both Jim and Carlos had suggested with regards to the 'C37'. Yes, it's the Mle 1916 37mm model 1934, manufactured by Puteaux, (as stated by Daniel: "le canon français de 37 mm AC modèle 34 fut dévellopé par les Ateliers de Puteaux").
The other question, I had asked him, was if any units of Spahis had taken part in Norway...the answer is no. So, Jim was also correct when he thought it "...could well have been taken in France during the Winter of 39/40 and probably was..." At least now, our curiosity can be put well to rest on that point lol
If anyone's interested (and you have an excellent command of the French language) here's a link to more information regarding the role of the French in Norway
http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/page/affichecitoyennete.php?idCitoyen=26&idLang=fr
A big thanks also goes to Ltc Daniel Guédras who has also provided us with alot of great, and most useful information as well :)
-
I have to agree, Msr Guédras has been an absolute star! :D
-
Jim...yes, he most definitely has! :) Having the Mle 1916 37mm model 1934 in the North African area of operations does make alot of sense, especially in respect of it being so easy to be moved about the place (manhandled, wheeled or on packs). Plus, as you had previously said, "Given the Spahis' likely opponents pre-WW2....a 37mm light gun would've been ideal as a support weapon to dislodge tribesman from a rocky hillside strong point or a building..."
I did find another piece of interesting information which stated there was an anti-aircraft model in use (model 1936) which was fully automatic, fed through a box magazine which was mounted over the breach. The magazine held 12 cartridges. Interesting to say the least. So far, that's all I know with regards to it....however, I diverse.... :)
-
Here are a few images of the Mle 1916 37mm which I have managed to find. On the third photo down, there is an infantryman standing to the left....can anyone tell if that's a crescent emblem on the front of his Adrian helmet (?), as this was worn by all Mohammedan troops.
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae4/Tannenberg1914/Mle%201916%2037mm%20model/37mm_mle16_bw1.jpg)
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae4/Tannenberg1914/Mle%201916%2037mm%20model/37mm_2.jpg)
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae4/Tannenberg1914/Mle%201916%2037mm%20model/37mm_ig_bw33.jpg)
(http://i952.photobucket.com/albums/ae4/Tannenberg1914/Mle%201916%2037mm%20model/37mm_3_plan.jpg)
-
It look like it’s an horn like the ones wear on the beret of the Chasseur Alpin at the beginning of the war
-
It look like it’s an horn like the ones wear on the beret of the Chasseur Alpin at the beginning of the war
Calimero, thanks for the pointer :) After further investigation, I can confirm you're right....and there was I hoping it was a Spahis lol
I actually found the following site of some interest:
http://bleuhorizon.canalblog.com/archives/2007/05/18/4997837.html (http://bleuhorizon.canalblog.com/archives/2007/05/18/4997837.html)
-
I thought this may be of interest to any of you who would like to know a bit more about the unit structure for a Spahis platoon...I received the following update in an email from Daniel Guédras from the Musée des Spahis de Senlis, France. As Daniel had quite rightly pointed out to me, it's a theoretical composition for a squadron of Spahis, and that this composition was rarely observed, with each regiment having it's own characteristics.
However, it does give alot of great little bits of information here and, although it's in French, I can get more than a gist of it. However, if there are any budding translators out there..... :)
Once again, Monsieur Guédras has provided us with some very wonderful and useful information and guidance on this subject :)
"... Dans chaque escadron, les pelotons étaient divisés en groupe de combat, eux-mêmes articulés en escouades où chacun conservait sa spécialité d'éclaireur, de tireur, de grenadier et de garde-chevaux.
Un groupe d'appui de mortiers, comprenant généralement un mortier de 81 et deux mortiers de 60, complétait la puissance de feu de l'escadron.
Schéma de l'Escadron de combat:
- Capitaine commandant
- sous-officier radio
- officier médecin
- Lieutenant-adjoint
- lieutenant 1° peloton
- lieutenant 2° peloton
- lieutenant 3° peloton
- lieutenant 4° peloton
- sous-officier appui mortier
- adjudant d'escadron PHR (Peloton Hors Rang)
( subsistances, forge, vétérinaire,..)
Schéma du peloton de combat
- Lieutenant chef de peloton
- MDLC adjoint
- MDL 1° groupe
- Brigadier escouade éclaireur
- Brigadier escouade FM
- MDL 2° groupe
- Brigadier escouade éclaireur
- Brigadier escouade FM
Escouade éclaireur
* Eclaireur de pointe
* Eclaireur aile gauche * Eclaireur aile droite
* Flanc garde gauche * brigadier chef d'escouade * Flanc garde droit
* garde-chevaux ( 4 chevaux) * garde chevaux ( 4 chevaux)
Escouade FM
* tireur
* chargeur * chef de pièce
* pouvoyeur * pourvoyeur
* garde- chevaux (4) * garde-chevaux (4)
En progression à cheval, le tireur montait son cheval de selle et tenait en main le cheval de bât FM. Les autre cavaliers de l'escouade se relayaient en serre-file derrière le cheval de bât.
.......... "
-
I'll offer...
In each squadron, the platoons were divided in groups of combat, which themselves were divided into squads where everyone kept his specialty as a scout, a marksman, grenadier and horse holders.
A support group of mortars, usually including an 81mm mortar and two 60mm mortars, completed the firepower of the squadron.
Squadron Schematic:
- Captain
- NCO radio
- Medical Officer
- Deputy Lieutenant
- Lt. 1st Platoon
- Lt. 2nd Platoon
- Lt. 3rd Platoon
- Lt. 4th Platoon
- NCO Support Platoon (possibly with the rank of adjutant = staff sergeant?)
- Warrant Officer (possibly Adjutant-chef = Sergeant-Major?) Squadron PHR (Headquarters Platoon)
(Supply, blacksmith, veterinarian, etc.)
Combat Platoon Schematic
- Lieutenant platoon leader
- Deputy MDLC (Maréchal des logis-chef = Platoon Sergeant)
- MDL (Maréchal des logis = Sergeant, or Corporal in British terms) 1st group
- Brigadier (Lance-Corporal in British terms, or Corporal equivalent in other armies) scout squad
- Brigadier MG squad
- MDL 2nd group
- Brigadier scout squad
- Brigadier MG squad
Scout squad
Advanced Scout
Scout left wing, Scout right wing
Flank left guard, Brigadier (squad leader) Flank right guard
2 Horse holder – i.e. one for each flank (4 horses)
MG Squad
Brigadier (squad leader)
MG Gunner
Gun No.2
2 Ammo carriers
2 Horse holders, each with 4 horses.
When mounted, the gunner rode his saddle horse and was holding the MG pack horse. The other horsemen of the squad took turns in single file (serre = string?) behind the pack horse.
peut-être? :)
-
Je vous remercie encore une fois Monsieur Hale pour votre aide plus appréciés lol
-
A votre service :)
I should point out that I forgot to mention that the 'MG' should be LMG and not a tripod mounted weapon. The 'FM' in the French version stands for fusil mitrailleur (lit. 'automatic rifle'), while a machine gun like the Hotchkiss M.1914 would be just mitrailleuse ... I must have been slacking again. ;)
-
A votre service :)
I should point out that I forgot to mention that the 'MG' should be LMG and not a tripod mounted weapon. The 'FM' in the French version stands for fusil mitrailleur (lit. 'automatic rifle'), while a machine gun like the Hotchkiss M.1914 would be just mitrailleuse ... I must have been slacking again. ;)
Jim, thanks again :)