Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: Major Weenie on October 02, 2010, 09:01:37 PM
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So first,
Here's a photo of a French mountain gun (37mm ?) I always thought that it was too small for 28mm, but after the recent go round here on the forum about my 19th century screw gun, that turned out to be a 1916 replacement for the screw gun, I began to wonder if it really was the proper size. Also, like my Egyptian fieldgun from posts past, there's the question about proper color. Should it be some sort of 'colonial tan' ? Should it be the same color as in Europe? And what color would that be? Napoleonic field gun green? If so, then there's the issue of what shade of green. Some time back a knowledgeable Frenchman (JC en France) pointed out that our club's French canons were too 'green.' That the correct color should be a 'bottle green.' So here's the photo. Is it a believable green? Should it actually be green? Is it too big/small next to that Perry Bro. Bashi Bazouk?
(http://thebengalclubla.com/images/Gun02.jpg)
And now, the mystery gun. Received it in a bag full on Boxer Rebellion Chinese stuff. At first I thought it was a French Napoleonic gun, but after assembly I think that the trail doesn't flair out enough for that. What is it? A generic 18th European piece?
(http://thebengalclubla.com/images/Gun03.jpg)
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I think the "Mystery gun" is a Foundry Chinese artillery piece for the taiping rebellion.
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Oh,
And what color should the gun barrel be? It's a breach loader, so... steel? blackened steel?
Regards,
MW
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I think it is a mussle loader. I have a faint memory from a Wargames Illustrated image from the past where the barrel was painted bronze.
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Yep, it's definitely the old Taiping Rebellion muzzle-loader : I have that model in my collection. Chinese guns were made of brass, iron or even copper, so the choice is yours when it comes to painting the barrel. The metal could be left in its natural colour, although it appears to have been the custom in the Imperial artillery to paint the gun barrel and fittings black, red being a common colour for the carriage.
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As far as I'm aware, the French kept their Napoleonic olive green shade throughout the 19thC. Presumably the steel barrel would be polished as with the various Krupps in use in other armies, but that's just a guess. It looks small, but then again so does the British Screw Gun, so should be about right judging by the small 37mm bore.
Sorry I'm not of more use.
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French gun carriages continued to be painted green throughout the 19th century, but it seems the shade gradually veered away from the Napoleonic wars' gros vert and mutated into a dull dark olive grey. Look at the painting by Edouard Detaille below and you'll see it's hard to tell whether the exact hue is olive green or grey :
(http://www.repro-tableaux.com/kunst/edouard_detaille/battle_villejuif_siege.jpg)
Click the link below and scroll down a bit for a picture of a mountain howitzer and crew circa 1855 (sorry, the website won't allow me to hotlink the pic).
http://www.fortsteynard.com/artillerie.htm (http://www.fortsteynard.com/artillerie.htm)
Regarding the gun model's size in relation to your figures, bear in mind that the current Perry figures are much taller than the old Foundry Franco-Prussian minis.
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LAF Gents,
1.) Thanks for the Chinese Gun info. I am stunned that I received an actual 'Chinese' gun in the bag with the figures. Looks like 'red' wood (right?) and a brass barrel for me.
2.) Many thanks with regard to the French mountain gun. The image of the gun from 1855 seems to put it at about the same size as this model with my existing figures. I'm comparing wheel height. And the 'French' troops are old Foundry Franco Prussians, so it should work. The water color of the 120mm gun is very interesting. It looks to be a sort of blue/grey. Much like how I ended up painting my Egyptian Krupp from 1882.
If the general consensus is that the green became more olive as the 19th century progressed, then maybe I'll try the same shade I used for my Federale French 75. Originally it was a sort of faded tan, but then a chum in Mexico City mentioned that he thought all Mexican guns from 1910 were 'green.' I tried Vallejo Russian uniform olive and it looks pretty good.
Say, I remember seeing a French 75 from W.W.I It was camoflaged in shades of; yellow, red brown, and green. You don't suppose the green used in W.W.I would be the same shade from the late 19th century? Any color images of a French 75 out there?
Many Thanks,
MW
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Re the Chinese gun, yes, red would be a perfectly adequate colour. That is how the Imperial artillery painted its carriages, at least in theory. Taiping guns could be either painted or left in their natural wood colour.
There are plenty of pics of French 75's floating around. I'm not familiar with the camo scheme you mention, which does not mean it was not occasionally used. Your 75 may not have been a French one, as the gun was widely exported. Most pictures show a grey/blue shade for both the gun and its carriage. Some museums have 75's painted in various shades of olive, but this may not have been their original colour. Here's a small selection below, and you will find many more if you google "canon de 75 artillerie française".
The archetypal 75 in its 1914 incarnation :
(http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7778/artdecamp1914x450vk2.jpg)
And a modern pic of the 75 in the Draguignan museum :
(http://canonspgmww1guns.canalblog.com/images/75Draguignan.jpg)
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You can find things in the darndest places. Like this 75 in a park outside the Blue Mosque in Herat. It's been sitting there for who knows how long, weathered to heck, but you can see traces of the original colour. The two nurses that were with me at the time were amused that my comment was, "what the heck is a soixante quinze doing here?" Anyway, as requested, a colour photo of a CANNONE DA 75mm MOD. 1911:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/TSATF%20in%20Kandahar/Herat100414156.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x96/WillBailie/Miniatures/TSATF%20in%20Kandahar/Herat100414154.jpg)
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The two nurses that were with me at the time were amused that my comment was, "what the heck is a soixante quinze doing here?"
Perhaps they misheard you and thought you said soixante-neuf.
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No such luck lol
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No smut, please!
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No smut, please!
Merely part quoting the title of a popular Serge Gainsbourg tune old boy. No idea what année érotique, the other part means but I gather it might be an ode to the joys of the year anno domini 1969. ;)
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Then again I'm still shocked that an innocent little ditty like Les Sucettes may have had quite another meaning. I hope I never lose my childlike sense of innocence and naivety.
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What were you and the nurses doing in Herat, and how long ago?
Chick
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April this year, I took a detour on my way home from a 13-month posting at a hospital in Kandahar.
I can post some more holiday snaps later, but I'll put them in a different thread as we're wandering away from the topic at hand!
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Merely part quoting the title of a popular Serge Gainsbourg tune old boy. No idea what année érotique, the other part means but I gather it might be an ode to the joys of the year anno domini 1969
"année érotique" means "erotic year"
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Many thanks but why would 1969 have been such an erotic year? Was it relief at the prospect of not being teargassed on the streets of Paris, like the previous year? Did Mme Birkin's charms have a particular lustre that year? Or was that naughty Monsieur Gainsbourg hinting at something else?
A troubled non-francophone
:)
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Following on from Arthur's comments on Chinese cannon
They typically had blackened ironwork and red painted woodwork
The patina of surviving barrels varies from a wrought iron brown like this one in Canterbury
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Cannon/canterburychinesegun.jpg)
To roughened verdigris bronze on these ca.1850 Chinese pieces at Firepower
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Cannon/Chinesegeneral.jpg)
The woodwork was invariably painted/lacquered red as on this small cannon and bed captured ca. 1860 (after conservation) at Firepower, Museum of Artillery
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Cannon/RedBed-After.jpg)
The carriage is based on one featured in a series of illustrations from the Illustrated London News made at the time of the European campaigns against the Chinese in the C19
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.oldprint.co.uk/low_res/544.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.oldprint.co.uk/search.php%3Fq%3De%26search%3D1%26page%3D55&usg=__xw9oW84kwSUPkadYTvLwqfrJUUM=&h=360&w=480&sz=49&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=ybNyd1COidtjkM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=170&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2522illustrated%2Blondon%2Bnews%2522%2522chinese%2522%2522cannon%2522%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-US%26biw%3D1255%26bih%3D809%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=126&vpy=87&dur=4297&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=137&ty=96&ei=TRCrTKoq0MWzBqe36dED&oei=TRCrTKoq0MWzBqe36dED&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
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Many thanks but why would 1969 have been such an erotic year? Was it relief at the prospect of not being teargassed on the streets of Paris, like the previous year? Did Mme Birkin's charms have a particular lustre that year? Or was that naughty Monsieur Gainsbourg hinting at something else?
A troubled non-francophone
:)
Would you by any chance imply, at the risk of forever compromising your childlike innocence, that 69 may have something to do with a certain sex position ? Get thee behind me, Satan... ::)
Not that we're talking smut, mind you : this is merely an erudite conversation about chanson française... :P
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Ignoring the suggestive numerology,
And on to the canons
1.) Many thanks for Chinese gun info. Looks like Vallejo red, with a wash of Vallejo 'wood' (which is a sort of red color that I use to shade red coats), and black metal work with a brass barrel.
2.) The French 75 is now more intriguing. The photo of the 'well maintained' version is mostly in shade, but part of the barrel projects into the sunlight. That looks like... Some sort of light grey, with a bit of blue, or green, or even a tad of 'bottle green' mixed in?
Certainly worth an experiment.
Again, many thanks,
MW.
PS - And, of course, the only actual French 75 I have a model of is part of a Federale force from 1910 - 1916. So who knows what color they painted that.
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Why, Jane Birkin was no 75, but she was definitely canon in the mid-70's... ;D
And yes gents, I'll get me coat...
Never let the boys play with your guns, Major Weenie, lest you end up with a collective hijacking of your thread lol
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For the French Blue I use the Foundry 'Night Sky' triad. You will need to do a tad of mixing between shades but it gives a really good French blue-grey.
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Get thee behind me, Satan... ::)
I think that's an entirely different proposition and indeed position, Greek not French I believe.
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<insert lascivious comment here>
So the noble Smirnoff is suggesting a 'French blue grey' rather than a 'French green grey' ?
Yikes! Dare I suspect that all my artillery, except for the now officially Chinese muzzle loader, will be some shade of blue grey?
Regards,
MW
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Having steered the debate back from muzzle vs breech loader, I'd say go for some variation of grey for the modern gun. Most of the foreign guns purchased in the 20th C were probably in their factory applied colours anyway. The photo I've seen of a Krupp 75 during the Chinese revolution suggestssome form of lightish grey but of course it's a b&w photo.
For the muzzle loader red is a good choice but yelloow might be equally good and more dramatic. Red and yellow are popular colours in Chinese culture yellow being associated with nobility. Bronze or black barrels according to taste.
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Red was applied to the vast majority of weapons, Yellow had more Imperial connotations so was on the whole a 'reserved' colour.
Jingals at Firepower (ignore the pyramidal display mounts)
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Jingals.jpg)
The original tripod mount
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/T-2After.jpg)
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Yikes!
Thanks for all the 'gun info,' but now those photos of Jingals...
So my Imperial jingals, in darkened silver with 'natural' wood must now be repainted in red & blackened steel ????
Oh the humanity!
Regards,
MW
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I have seen a lot of Chinese historical weaponry over the years, matchlocks, small artillery pieces, polearms etc. in my day job (Museum curator). I have yet to come across one where the woodwork wasn't painted/lacquered red.
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Yikes!
Thanks for all the 'gun info,' but now those photos of Jingals...
So my Imperial jingals, in darkened silver with 'natural' wood must now be repainted in red & blackened steel ????
Oh the humanity!
Regards,
MW
Most of the iron gun barrels I've seen - actually most old ironwork - is black or very darkmetallic grey. Either through painting or the natural iron tone being far darker than steel. Iron is far less prone to rusting than steel, but even so it is usually coated to give it protection. Those lovely jingalls look to be the natural iron colour, with the rear one possibly painted. I know brighter metal looks better on wargames figures,but to be accurate darker is better. It also looks nicer next to red, yellow or green woodwork.
:)
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I have seen a lot of Chinese historical weaponry over the years, matchlocks, small artillery pieces, polearms etc. in my day job (Museum curator). I have yet to come across one where the woodwork wasn't painted/lacquered red.
I hadn't realised polearms were also red. Very interesting :)