Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: Phil Robinson on October 06, 2010, 12:33:59 AM
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Picked this up on TGN
http://studiomcvey.blogspot.com/2010/10/what-kara-did-next.html
and
http://www.seditionwars.com/
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As I see this I realize just how much I am fed up with heroic SciFi. They are wasting their talent.
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Totally disagree. I'm really looking forward to this...McVey combined with Kev White beats Captain Planet any day 8)
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The drawing on the blog doesn't attract me much (the alien looks too much like a Tyranid) but the Sedition Wars page has a nice Necromundan feel about it 8)
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Wow, so the only way to sell miniatures nowadays is to wrap them up in a game? ;D
I have mixed feeling about this from Studio McVey, but I think I'll probably be getting these new models one way or another as I *really* liked Lt Kara Black. The game itself... Hmm, less exciting I suppose.
Like Werner Klocke and Freebooter's Fate; stunning models (if you like his style, which I do), and a decent enough game. I personally would have been happy with just the models really (having tried the game out a little bit), and I have a sense of deja-vu seeing McVey's news.
Still, the news that the limited resin runs will be followed up with metal production runs is definitely good news, and if the game is the means to make this viable (i.e., volume sales), then I'm fine with that and I hope Mike and Ali get good returns from it.
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Totally disagree. I'm really looking forward to this...McVey combined with Kev White beats Captain Planet any day 8)
You know, I really like the sculpts from Kev White, he is a great sculptor. However there's Hasslefree models (his own company), many of which have this look and feel already. I think it might be almost redundant to put out this line, since at any time Kev White can bust out a really nice looking sci-fi model for Hasslefree.
I guess I'd have to ask, why pay premium pricing for Kev White's work with McVey, when you can get the same quality models from Hasslefree for less too? It's almost like competing with himself at that point?
I have and always have been a fan of the sci-fi genre, so I can't say I'm ever tired of sci-fi sculpts, and I'm sure these will be really nice models, I just have to question how sensible it is in an already quite crowded market, and in the middle of a terrible worldwide economic crisis to move ahead with this line. I guess it all comes down to how much they'll cost, and how good the actual game is.
Another guy mentioned Freebooter's Fate and Werener Klocke. Yes those are somewhat expensive models too, but the game is fantastic, addictive and quite brilliant all around, so having really nice looking models, plus a game to use them in, that happens to be a great game... That's the ticket to getting away with selling somewhat expensive models.
That is how Warmachine and 40k have made it, and it's how Freebooter Miniatures is doing so well at present too. All three are known for consistent quality when it comes to the models, and having games that you can use them in, that are fun and compelling to play. The actual game McVey comes up with will be the deciding factor that will make or break Seduction Wars.
The Sci-fi market is already crowded with skirmish games, and if you're asking close to, or more than $10 USD for a model, they better be REALLY special looking, and/or have a really impressive game to use them in, or else it will be a hard sell in this messed up economy.
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Well, from what I've understood, Kev has more than enough ideas and sculpts going for himself...but moulds and casts have to be paid in order to sell them and this is money Hasslefree doesn't have. The simple thing about commissionwork is you're getting paid the sculptwork, but you don't have to mould and cast models. At least, that's what I understood. Maybe some insiders can step in :)
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I guess I'd have to ask, why pay premium pricing for Kev White's work with McVey, when you can get the same quality models from Hasslefree for less too? It's almost like competing with himself at that point?
I agree (shock horror), that from a punters viewpoint, you can get similar quality models from Hasslefree directly, but the minis produced for Mike McVey are for a particular project, and so Kev is hardly likely to produce virtually similar minis for HF, and undercut Mike now is he? ::) In otherwords, if you like the sculpts that are in the McVey line, you will buy them from McVey, you won't buy them from Hasslefree.
The McVey resin castings on McVey's site are Limited Editions, which will also be reflected in the pricing.
I just have to question how sensible it is in an already quite crowded market, and in the middle of a terrible worldwide economic crisis to move ahead with this line. I guess it all comes down to how much they'll cost, and how good the actual game is.
You've made two assumptions, both of which I believe are wrong.
1) You seem to assume that people buying the minis equate them as luxury items, and will therefore trim back their spending due to the economic slowdown. Most collectors/painters/gamers that I know, treat their lead horde as stress relief - they may well cut down on numbers bought, but often the quality actually goes up, as punters are more picky on what they buy.
2) You also seem to suggest that the success of the figure line depends upon the game - many punters that buy minis have no interest in gaming, and are buying them purely to paint/collect.
Ultimately, the arrangement must suit both McVey and Hasslefree, otherwise it wouldn't happen.
Out of interest WGG, have you asked McVey for samples to review, and if so what response have you had?
Well, from what I've understood, Kev has more than enough ideas and sculpts going for himself...but moulds and casts have to be paid in order to sell them and this is money Hasslefree doesn't have. The simple thing about commissionwork is you're getting paid the sculptwork, but you don't have to mould and cast models. At least, that's what I understood. Maybe some insiders can step in :)
Spot on!
Commission work will have plusses and minuses for any sculptor/business.
Plus side is a lump sum for completion of a sculpt, and like you say no mould/casting costs (essentially the financial risk lies with the individual/business doing the commissioning).
Downside is typically no onward stream of income.
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I have and always have been a fan of the sci-fi genre, so I can't say I'm ever tired of sci-fi sculpts, and I'm sure these will be really nice models, I just have to question how sensible it is in an already quite crowded market, and in the middle of a terrible worldwide economic crisis to move ahead with this line. I guess it all comes down to how much they'll cost, and how good the actual game is.
What makes you think there is going to be a game? They have said that the figures are for "gaming" but that isn't the same as saying there will be a game.
Nothing in their press release makes me think that there is going to be a set of rules published for this.
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Well, from what I've understood, Kev has more than enough ideas and sculpts going for himself...but moulds and casts have to be paid in order to sell them and this is money Hasslefree doesn't have. The simple thing about commissionwork is you're getting paid the sculptwork, but you don't have to mould and cast models. At least, that's what I understood. Maybe some insiders can step in :)
I thgink that's how the Perrys work too. The day job is sculpting for GW and that helps them finance heir own stuff. Personally I don't mind who Kev sculpts for, as long as he keeps working :)
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Out of interest WGG, have you asked McVey for samples to review, and if so what response have you had?
I had the same thought and also had the same question when I read his comments about Infinity.
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I had the same thought and also had the same question when I read his comments about Infinity.
You know I probably should contact them, thanks for mentioning it! I have a lot on my plate at the moment, being a one-man show and all, and I never ask for something I don't have the time to cover, but once I catch up with what I'm working on at the moment, I may indeed contact them.
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I agree (shock horror), that from a punters viewpoint, you can get similar quality models from Hasslefree directly, but the minis produced for Mike McVey are for a particular project, and so Kev is hardly likely to produce virtually similar minis for HF, and undercut Mike now is he? ::) In otherwords, if you like the sculpts that are in the McVey line, you will buy them from McVey, you won't buy them from Hasslefree.
The McVey resin castings on McVey's site are Limited Editions, which will also be reflected in the pricing.
You've made two assumptions, both of which I believe are wrong.
1) You seem to assume that people buying the minis equate them as luxury items, and will therefore trim back their spending due to the economic slowdown. Most collectors/painters/gamers that I know, treat their lead horde as stress relief - they may well cut down on numbers bought, but often the quality actually goes up, as punters are more picky on what they buy.
2) You also seem to suggest that the success of the figure line depends upon the game - many punters that buy minis have no interest in gaming, and are buying them purely to paint/collect.
Ultimately, the arrangement must suit both McVey and Hasslefree, otherwise it wouldn't happen.
Out of interest WGG, have you asked McVey for samples to review, and if so what response have you had?
Spot on!
Commission work will have plusses and minuses for any sculptor/business.
Plus side is a lump sum for completion of a sculpt, and like you say no mould/casting costs (essentially the financial risk lies with the individual/business doing the commissioning).
Downside is typically no onward stream of income.
By the way Akula, we are all within our rights to have an opinion and to share our thoughts on these topics, as long as it's done in a civil manner correct?
Well I respect your opinion and thoughts on the topic, however, just because yours is different than mine, doesn't make yours right, or better. It's different that's all. I also find it insulting that you've attempted to stoop to the level that you did by questioning my motives as you have. If you don't like me, move on, and don't post. If you want to try and sling mud, go back to Frothers and do it, where it's allowed, and where you and your pals get off on it.
Like most Werner Klocke sculpts the faces on his models pretty much give away it's a Werner model. The same is true of Kev White's facial style. Most of us can pick out one of his models straight away just as easily by the face alone. One could argue like Werner's sculpts, almost all of Kev's girl faces look so much alike that you can tell it's his just the same.
So a Limited Edition McVey, or a Hasslefree female sci-fi model will look so similar, that I'd imagine they would fit together quite well in most generic sci-fi game systems, the only difference there will be is that the McVey ones will be limited edition and cost more than the Hasslefree ones. This isn't a slight towards McVey or anyone, I'm just looking at the facts here.
The fact of the matter is, one could buy a really nice Werner skulpt from Reaper for $4 USD too, which just might fit in nicely with his own Freebooter's Fate models too just the same, which cost easily twice as much. These are facts, not some underlying insult to anyone involved. But, I also bet that the ones Werner is selling for $15 USD+ are selling better than the $4 Reaper ones, because there's a solid game behind the more expensive ones made for Freebooter's Fate.
That's pretty much what I'm trying to say. I also thought someone mentioned that there would be a game for Seduction Wars, IF not then I apologize for being wrong on that account. But I stand by what I said about models selling better when they have a solid gaming system behind them.
I personally think and feel that the painter model enthusiast is more niche, and the minority compared to the die hard gamer who spends hundreds of dollars at a time every time they purchase models, to stay competitive, and to collect and build their armies, because they love the game system they're playing.
And I think the example of Warmachine and 40k back those statements up more than any others. Games like Malifaux and Freebooter's Fate are also game systems that are selling models like hotcakes, and if you don't believe me, ask some retailers what's selling most at present.
And to say the painting enthusiast is a minority isn't an insult or negative at all, but based on the money companies like GW and Privateer Press is making, I think it's quite clear that there's probably a lot more truth to that than some are willing to admit too.
Analyze what I've said based on personal opinions you have about me all you want, and you'll come up wrong. Analyze what I've said based on the facts provided, and it becomes a little harder to debate some of the facts.
In hard economic times, something new, versus something established and already doing well is a huge challenge for the newcomer no matter how you look at it too. So sit back and challenge every word I say all you want, that's your right, but in the end, I believe there's a lot of truth to what I've said here regardless of what you say, most of which is no doubt based on the fact you simply WANT to prove me wrong, because you don't like me, which you've proven time and again by challenging things I've said here and elsewhere. Don't you ever feel that doing that is getting old too?
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If you don't like me, move on, and don't post. If you want to try and sling mud, go back to Frothers and do it, where it's allowed, and where you and your pals get off on it.
You can't kick up a fuss on other sites and not expect it to come back and haunt you.
And you can't publicly make statements on other sites about writing negative reviews of products if you aren't give free samples and not expect that to come and haunt you as well.
If you garner a reputation elsewhere then don't be surprised if it follows you about. Especially if you are trying to promote yourself as a source of reviews and critical opinion.
So a Limited Edition McVey, or a Hasslefree female sci-fi model will look so similar...
I suspect that you haven't seen a version of the Studio McVey sculpt Kev did then since it doesn't look a lot like any of the Hasslefree work he does.
I've said here regardless of what you say, most of which is no doubt based on the fact you simply WANT to prove me wrong, because you don't like me, which you've proven time and again by challenging things I've said here and elsewhere. Don't you ever feel that doing that is getting old too?
You reap what you sow. Maybe taking a more conciliatory attitude to people with contrary opinions might be a first step for you? You post opinions, people disagree and then you respond with this martyred position.
You can't tell people that they should respect your opinions when it appears that you don't really have any respect for contrary opinions yourself.
Do as you say and maybe people might not take so much umbrage to what you post :-)
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I had the same thought and also had the same question when I read his comments about Infinity.
Oh Zac, I think you're site is broken again too, don't you think it's probably more important to fix your site, than to sit here taking jabs at me too?
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You can't kick up a fuss on other sites and not expect it to come back and haunt you.
And you can't publicly make statements on other sites about writing negative reviews of products if you aren't give free samples and not expect that to come and haunt you as well.
If you garner a reputation elsewhere then don't be surprised if it follows you about. Especially if you are trying to promote yourself as a source of reviews and critical opinion.
I suspect that you haven't seen a version of the Studio McVey sculpt Kev did then since it doesn't look a lot like any of the Hasslefree work he does.
You reap what you sow. Maybe taking a more conciliatory attitude to people with contrary opinions might be a first step for you? You post opinions, people disagree and then you respond with this martyred position.
You can't tell people that they should respect your opinions when it appears that you don't really have any respect for contrary opinions yourself.
Do as you say and maybe people might not take so much umbrage to what you post :-)
Oh and let me guess, you're the judge, jury and executioner I need to look out for right? Really you crack me up Zac.
You can make those claims all you want, but that's not the case.
I've never threatened to write a negative review about any product if they didn't send me samples either. That's something others on Frothers have said time and again, because they twisted something I had said once into that. Again, IF this were the case, do you REALLY think I'd still be here and doing as well as I am with WGG?
IF everything you and the Frothers clowns said were true, no one would work with me in this industry, and guess what Zac?
WarGameGuru dwarfs the content at TGN, because the last time your website had anything to actually say was 2009 as I recall (last time you published a review?). You copy and paste news all day long, that's it, you say little to nothing, you're no voice. Sites like mine have become a voice in the industry, one that many companies feel is the place they want their products reviewed. Companies ask me to cover their products far more than I ask to cover them now.
You don't have to comprehend of understand that. It's no secret that your one of the most arrogant and full of yourself people around, and I really don't know why. You capitalized on copy and pasting news bits, you're no voice, your just a portal.
The rest of us out here have worked hard to do what we do, and I guarantee I do more in a day to actually cover this industry than you do in a week with your little clicky finger, and pressing CTRL V and CTRL C all day long.
Jealousy is all it is Zac. It must really be a bummer to have a website like yours, that's known only for copy and pasting what text a company emails to you. And then to see a guy you hate with a passion come along and do what you CAN'T.
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Come on guys, I come to this site to get away from petty arguing.
I'm not sure if it's an overcrowded market or not. I happen to like the genre, so it works for me.
I like the first sculpt as well, however not overly fond that she is carrying a sword. I never could quite grasp that. Modern warriors don't use a sword, why would futuristic ones do it?
Pricing will be my only concern. If they price themselves too high, I probably won't get into them, as there are just too many good minis on the market right now.
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Come on guys, I come to this site to get away from petty arguing.
I'm not sure if it's an overcrowded market or not. I happen to like the genre, so it works for me.
I like the first sculpt as well, however not overly fond that she is carrying a sword. I never could quite grasp that. Modern warriors don't use a sword, why would futuristic ones do it?
Pricing will be my only concern. If they price themselves too high, I probably won't get into them, as there are just too many good minis on the market right now.
I certainly come here because it's not like other forums too. I didn't come here to argue either, although I do have a following who can't resist taking jabs at me every chance they get evidently.
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Oh Zac, I think you're site is broken again too, don't you think it's probably more important to fix your site, than to sit here taking jabs at me too?
Wow. That is breathtaking in its insolence.
I always wonder what the point of your posts is. You don't seem to want to discuss things with people, you seem to want to preach at them. Or pontificate perhaps.
The problem is that you do this on sites where the collective wisdom and experience dwarfs your own and yet you never seem to see that perhaps the people you are condescending to might actually know more about these subjects than you do. And generally do.
You alienate the entire Frothers community (not difficult mind you) forgetting that most of them are made up of the same people you want review copies from.
Then you come here, get grief from the some of the same folks from Frothers and tell them to go back there forgetting that most of them were here well before you.
You make it sound as if there is some lurking conspiracy to follow and harass you when its really that you go from community to community and seem to forget that these places, people and communities predated you and your desire to make a name for yourself.
Akula, AnEvilGiraffe (alt spelling mine so his screen name doesn't cause my dyslexia to make my head explode), RedZed and other people from Frothers were active participants in this forum for ages and are people that have proven themselves with their work and their contributions.
You haven't.
And so I go back to my original comment, why are you doing this? It isn't any good for your reputation, it isn't any good for your site and I really can't understand how someone who wants to build his site and his online reputation would act this way.
You really do confuse me and your posts really make me sad as you seem to have such a desire to contribute but little ability to withstand even the slightest critique or hardship.
I wish you luck but I don't see a real future for you if you continue to act this way publicly.
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Jealousy is all it is Zac. It must really be a bummer to have a website like yours, that's known only for copy and pasting what text a company emails to you. And then to see a guy you hate with a passion come along and do what you CAN'T.
Anyone want to bet how long it takes to get this topic locked now? ;D
WarGameGuru dwarfs the content at TGN, because the last time your website had anything to actually say was 2009 as I recall
About that. I suspect that is when Grant started to prepare to move to the US to take his new job after finishing his PhD. I stopped doing reviews well before that since I am the sole caretaker for my twin girls and that is primarily what I do all day.
I don't really have a lot of time left in my week after posting news and so I tend to focus on actual painting and gaming and not on reviews any more.
That seems to really annoy you for some reason. Mind you this is almost the same as the email you sent me, minus the profanity, after I told you I wasn't posting links to your articles anymore so material isn't anything new to me :D
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I guess I'd have to ask, why pay premium pricing for Kev White's work with McVey, when you can get the same quality models from Hasslefree for less too? It's almost like competing with himself at that point?
erm... because they look different.... :o
Seriously.... ???
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I like the first sculpt as well, however not overly fond that she is carrying a sword. I never could quite grasp that. Modern warriors don't use a sword, why would futuristic ones do it?
I think it works in sculpts like the MERCS Kemvar Assassin but I agree that in general close combat weapons look odd on sci-fi sculpts.
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By the way Akula, we are all within our rights to have an opinion and to share our thoughts on these topics, as long as it's done in a civil manner correct?
Well I respect your opinion and thoughts on the topic, however, just because yours is different than mine, doesn't make yours right, or better. It's different that's all. I also find it insulting that you've attempted to stoop to the level that you did by questioning my motives as you have. If you don't like me, move on, and don't post. If you want to try and sling mud, go back to Frothers and do it, where it's allowed, and where you and your pals get off on it.
...{and some other stuff}....
So sit back and challenge every word I say all you want, that's your right, but in the end, I believe there's a lot of truth to what I've said here regardless of what you say, most of which is no doubt based on the fact you simply WANT to prove me wrong, because you don't like me, which you've proven time and again by challenging things I've said here and elsewhere. Don't you ever feel that doing that is getting old too?
In one breathe you say we are all entitled to our opinions, but in the next breathe you suggest that by "challenging" your opinion i've somehow got an ulterior motive.
You say you respect my opinion, but then accuse me of slinging mud - what exactly is that suppose to mean?
Then you play your "the Frothers are out to get me" card (again) - frankly it is getting tiresome.
I am a LAF'er, as well as a GWP'er, a FoD,er and yes a Frother - I was on LAF well before you joined, and have as much right as the next member to express my views. I happen to disagree with you - i didn't say my opinion counts for more than yours - nor does it count any less.
I have intentionally avoided any thread that you have started, since your last little tantrum, out of respect for the Moderators, but I don't see why I, or anyone else on here, should have to refrain from posting on a topic, just because you have posted.
You aren't a Guru, and the sun doesn't shine out of your arse, so drop the victim complex.
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erm... because they look different.... :o
The resin helps but I was really taken aback by the sculpt and it really made me readdress my impression of Kev as a sculptor because it is really quite unlike his other work. The posing and the movement especially.
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The resin helps but I was really taken aback by the sculpt and it really made me readdress my impression of Kev as a sculptor because it is really quite unlike his other work. The posing and the movement especially.
I'd definitely buy them - will be interesting to see how this range expands!
:)
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I'd definitely buy them - will be interesting to see how this range expands!
It is going to be interesting to see how the metal and resin versions compare. I'm always curious how you master figures for those two different processes.
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The resin helps but I was really taken aback by the sculpt and it really made me readdress my impression of Kev as a sculptor because it is really quite unlike his other work. The posing and the movement especially.
How so? What is your impression of Kev's work when it is in metal?
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How so? What is your impression of Kev's work when it is in metal?
I agree to an extent - I was surprised it was one of Kevs sculpts, obvious in hindsight, but at the time, I wouldnt have picked it as one of his.
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How so? What is your impression of Kev's work when it is in metal?
The resin allows for a lot more fine detail. Detail that I suspect he doesn't try to attempt for his metal miniatures.
So if you only ever see his metal figs (which are still very good) you don't get a real sense of just how well he can sculpt.
He also has a real talent for placing models in relaxed and realistic poses. I think its actually the true genius of his work. He makes every pose look real. The stuff he did for Privateer are also more "action" oriented in the poses. I wonder if Kev just likes more natural poses?
The Studio McVey sculpt is far more dynamic than his Hasselfree work so combined with the additional level of detail in the resin its an eye-opener.
At least it was for me. I don't have a lot of exposure to his full range of work.
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The sword doesn't bother me as much as others, it could just be ceremonial or a rank badge, or it could be siimilar to why modern soldiers are still given bayonets, sometimes you just have to stab open a tin of beans ;)
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The sword doesn't bother me as much as others, it could just be ceremonial or a rank badge, or it could be siimilar to why modern soldiers are still given bayonets, sometimes you just have to stab open a tin of beans ;)
I don't want to see the size of the can of beans you need to use that sword to open
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I don't want to see the size of the can of beans you need to use that sword to open
i dont want to be sitting round the campfire after he's eaten that can of beans....
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hope this "WGG and his role in the world in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers" discussion is over. Really have lot to do with that malware attacks and self-born-scripts and no sense of humor today. One word more and I will lock the topic and in the future every other topic about that lovely subject. Whatever this WGG thing is, I don't want see any sign of it on LAF. I don't give a shit about who's the victim and who's not. I've got my Lock and Delete buttons and I promise to take use of them. Thanks to all.
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The Sedition Wars has a pre-view in the second Mantic Journal.Some very nice concept art included.The miniature of Corpseman Morgan Vade is a really cool looking sculpt.
The money Kev gets from commision work helps them balance the books.As we all know things are hard for everyone at the moment.Commision work is a garanteed income and like it has been said does not have the extra costs of getting moulds and such done.
Mantic will also be selling the Hasslefree miniatures in box sets.Kev has done some special miniatures for them.I really hope this free's kev up to do more sculpting for the Hasslfree lines.A few more Grymn weapons teams would be very nice along with some air support.
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The Sedition Wars has a pre-view in the second Mantic Journal.
That explains the questions I was seeing about them and Mantic then :-)
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I think the three have teamed up.Mantic,Hasslefree and Studio McVey.I know they have Mike going to the open day and I think he will be helping expand there ranges.It will be a win win situation for all involved.Hasslefree will get more promotion going with having product on store shelves.
Really looking forward to seeing how the forces of the Firebrand rebellion turn out.Seems like they will be like 40K servitor types from what is in the journal.
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The resin allows for a lot more fine detail. Detail that I suspect he doesn't try to attempt for his metal miniatures.
So if you only ever see his metal figs (which are still very good) you don't get a real sense of just how well he can sculpt.
He also has a real talent for placing models in relaxed and realistic poses. I think its actually the true genius of his work. He makes every pose look real. The stuff he did for Privateer are also more "action" oriented in the poses. I wonder if Kev just likes more natural poses?
The Studio McVey sculpt is far more dynamic than his Hasselfree work so combined with the additional level of detail in the resin its an eye-opener.
At least it was for me. I don't have a lot of exposure to his full range of work.
Interesting take on that. I do have both his Studio McVey and gobs of his Hasslefree work (and even more of his Void stuff).... I just thought it was more of the properties of the resin process that defined his work a bit sharper. And the fact that the McVey mini is a bit larger in scale.
I'll take a closer look now that you mention it.
He is certainly good at the relaxed and natural poses..I guess that is what attracts me so to his work.
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I think it is the years of sculpting that has honed kev's style.His natural poses and good body proportions too.The Warzone Bauhaus Jungle Komandoes are still some of my favorite sculpts by kev.
Like most miniatures addicts I have loads of Kev's work from lots of different ranges.One of the reasons for buying into many lines.
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hope this "WGG and his role in the world in his own eyes and in the eyes of his admirers" discussion is over.
:-X
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new preview fig up of the medic now
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_E28i20HyP4U/TLX0loUn5LI/AAAAAAAAAl8/cIVIhxuf4MA/s1600/Morgan_combined_blog.jpg)
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Excellent sculpt - but I don't like him! :(
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...Something tells me that I'm going to end up buying the whole set of these!
Good job I have a perfect ruleset for them already (AE:B). :D
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I like em', I'm always looking for sci-fi minis for my Inquisitor & his henchmen and these fit nice...besides anything by Kev is always good, one of the best in the business IMHO.