Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => VSF Adventures => Topic started by: The_Beast on October 19, 2010, 03:17:12 PM
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Due to a recent broil up, all very civil, as you'd expect in a Victorian setting,, the question of what is VSF versus what is SteamPunk seemed to almost devolve to 'I know it when I see it' kind of thing.
Having myself been accused, again most civilly, of wandering into fantasy when I'd suggested a faction in VSF of 'Dwarf Germans', I began to think this might be of interest to several forum worthies who might not frequent all the forums involved, and present this thread for your consideration.
Please give examples, and do think about how rigorous you'd be: "I'd never have a hunt of vampires campaign. However, I'd allow Allan Quartermain one resurrection as an important plot device. But only one!"
Doug
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We've talked about this issue at least a couple times. You might try a search. I found the following couple of informative threads with my search, but yours might be more comprehensive:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16238.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16612.0
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I'll bite.
Colonial adventures either really happened or could have happened. No fantastic creatures unknown to science, no eldritch horrors, no bizarre steam-based technologies. Spooky stuff with plausible explanations are ok (eg, the Ghost and the Darkness - scary lions, but still flesh and blood, not supernatural as it turned out).
Gothic Horror incorporates the 'unkown', and can include 'traditional' horror monsters such as Dracula, Frankenstein's monster, werewolves, Faerie and the like. I don't see a point in excluding Cthulhu and its like (as long as the setting is appropriate, 19th century, could be extended up to 1914), but that's not a point I feel strongly on.
I don't distinguish between VSF and Steampunk, in keeping with my decision not to distinguish between trekkers and trekkies, or science fiction and speculative fiction.
And none of these definitions should stop anyone from mashing together any elements they want in order to make a good game (for example, the Vikings, Owlbears and Romans game on another thread).
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For me, steampunk and VSF might look a lot alike, but it's a matter of the starting point.
VSF starts with Colonial Adventures and adds weird victorian fictional science. Steampunk takes just about anything, then adds rivets, goggles, top hats, and cogs.
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I also have no issues with rolling in Old West with Colonials, as it potentially covers the same period - if Flashman can participate (unwillingly, of course) in both the Indian Mutiny and the Little Bighorn, then why not our games as well!
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We've talked about this issue at least a couple times. You might try a search. I found the following couple of informative threads with my search, but yours might be more comprehensive:
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16238.0
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=16612.0
Good for pointing these out, but I think they may underline my contention that the discussions are 'parochial' to particular sections of the forum. I'm a bit disappointed 'Help! What is VSF?' didn't become a sticky, though. I know I've felt like I was fumbling a bit, as you can tell.
Mind you, I already have demonstrated that I don't think there's ANY hard and fast set of borders, more guidelines.
Doug
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I'd allow Atlantis, Hollow Earths, Vampires and other Undead, Improbable Steam Contraptions, Alternative Histories (fictitious nations like Ruritania and Graustark, fictitious events like the Second American Civil War), Time Travellers (eg Dr Who) and other literary figures, both famous and infamous (Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty, General Melchett and Corpral Jones in their younger days), and I'd definitely allow German Dwarves in Stahlhelms and/or Pickelhaube.
But my VSF strays very easily into things others condemn as 'just Steampunk'. Personally, I'm not that interested in 'what would have happened at Rourke's Drift if the British had steam-tanks and brass robots'. I reckon the wackier the merrier, on the whole, I'd rather throw Martians, crystal technology, secret cults contacting Deep Ones, and airship-dogfights in a bold plot by the French to kidnap Queen Victoria and replace her with a clockwork replica/undead countess from before the Revolution, etc into the mix and see what happens.
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For argument's sake...
Anything with the word "punk" attached must be some kind of reaction... I thought Steampunk was a reaction to Modernism. Therefore Modern conventions are rebelled against by people using low-tech equipment etc. It's a statement against progress.
Whereas VSF is moving towards Modernism, albeit in a purely fantastical way. It is a lot more optimistic, whereas Steampunk is pessimistic.
I know there will be exceptions. But as concepts, this is the difference between VSF and Steampunk.
For some guidance, I'd look at the literature and artwork of the time and then look around those works as to what was really happening.
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For argument's sake...
Anything with the word "punk" attached must be some kind of reaction... I thought Steampunk was a reaction to Modernism. Therefore Modern conventions are rebelled against by people using low-tech equipment etc. It's a statement against progress.
Whereas VSF is moving towards Modernism, albeit in a purely fantastical way. It is a lot more optimistic, whereas Steampunk is pessimistic.
I know there will be exceptions. But as concepts, this is the difference between VSF and Steampunk.
For some guidance, I'd look at the literature and artwork of the time and then look around those works as to what was really happening.
Totally different take than I understood it, but I'm willing,, nay, demand, to admit I knew I DON'T know.
My impression is that 'punk is seen as merely posturing,, at least by VSF cognoscenti, a thin veneer of Victorian over very modern sensibilities. Certains, this applies to a great deal of what I see as decried as SteamPunk.
VSF never impressed me as consciously moving to progress; rather, new tech applied to older problems in old ways. "This new walker can move faster than a horse.""We shall have to form them into their own units, lest they be slowed by cavalry when they charge."
I shall have to do some personal 'box' wrenching to add your points to my cogitation...
Good challenge to my thought, sirrah!
Doug
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I don't see VSF as inherently optimistic in tone either. In fact I'm struggling to think of an H.G. Wells story that fits this idea. All the ones I've read seem to involve downer, or at least bitter-sweet endings, and the future doesn't look all that rosy in any of them.
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I don't see VSF as inherently optimistic in tone either. In fact I'm struggling to think of an H.G. Wells story that fits this idea. All the ones I've read seem to involve downer, or at least bitter-sweet endings, and the future doesn't look all that rosy in any of them.
Yes, Wells was a bit of a glass-half-empty chap. Try The New Accelerator.
VSF isn't optimistic per se, but it is usually filled with the excitement of discovery and exploration, which can be seen as positive.
As I've said before, VSF for me is the Science Fiction of the Victorian period (fused with the 'invasion literature' and adventure stories of the period), rather than Science Fiction in the Victorian period.
Really, it's all a lot more complicated than it should be. Each man must make up his own opinion. Just bear in mind that it is I who is right. :D
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I've heard a similar argument before, that VSF is Verne and Wells, and Steampunk is Steamboy and Philip Reeve - VSF refers to the actual literature produced in the Victorian era (whether in English or in French, naturelment), whereas Steampunk is the later stuff, inspired by VSF, set in a cod-Victorian world of impossible engineering, where everything is brass and crinolines, or as I've described it before 'rivets and whimsy'.
'Steampunk' is called Steampunk, as I understand it, because it's formed with reference to 'Cyberpunk', as a distinct sub-genre of science fiction (and also a related fashion movement amongst art-school students); in this case, science fiction that has a nod to the Victorian-era sci-fi pioneers, such as Wells and Verne, rather than being about computer hackers overdosing on speed while infiltrating the cyber-domains of big Japanese corporations.
Of course, none of us are actually gaming 'VSF' under this definition, we're all doing 'Steampunk', because we're not playing games from the Victorian era, just games inspired by a notion of it. We should probably change the name of the forum.
Or maybe stop worrying about nuances of definition.
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To me VSF is Prussians in white uniforms and unobtainium.
I also like the idea that someone posted earlier about VSF being people in the 1830/40's trying to imagine the future of the 1880's+.
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Yes I agree that Steampunk is a throwback cousin to cyberpunk. Imagine William Gibson being born at the same time as Wells or Verne.
The "punk" part of the genre normally refers to a type of dystopian view of the future. When William Gibson wrote Neuromancer back in the eighties he viewed his future with drugs, bioimplants, virtual reality, artificial intelligence as a kind of nightmare world. Unfortunately for him a bunch of tech heads (cyber punks) in California thought it was cool and actually set out to try and create Gibson's nightmare future!
Steampunk is a dystopian future past.
VSF is deeply entrenched in the boundless enthusiasm of the late Victorian era when the world was opening up to the railway and steam ships. The time of the penny dailies described heroic feats of adventure and battles in places people could only dream of visiting. Gordon, Livingstone and others walked like giants on the world stage.
It was also when science and technology started to noticeably effect peoples lives and authors of the day like Wells, Verne, Conan Doyle etc. started to extrapolate these advances to their logical conclusions. I agree Wells was more pessimistic than Verne.
Personally I prefer VSF more than Steampunk. Also steampunk seems to fall into skirmish type gaming while with VSF I can have glorious epic battles with aeronef fleets or massed steam tank battles.
VSF can stretch into the Edwardian era culminating in WW1. After that I would call it the pulp period which then stretched to about 1950s.
cheers Fuzzy
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Or maybe stop worrying about nuances of definition.
I don't know, RedOrc... I find the discussion riveting.
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I don't know, RedOrc... I find the discussion riveting.
::)
lol
The funny thing is, if you type 'Victorian science fiction' into google the first entry is 'Steampunk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia'
Now I know that Wiki isn't the best to go for concrete info but it certainly raised my eyebrow.
I personally prefer the term 'VSF' for what I do as I don't assoiciate 'Steampunk' with it. I see steampunk as a more a contemporary version of what VSF should be (nothing wrong with that at all).
cheers
James
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In the style of Carnac the Magnificent:
A jaunty foreign lark,
a riveted, airborne barque,
and a pale damsel in the dark.
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I personally prefer the term 'VSF' for what I do as I don't assoiciate 'Steampunk' with it. I see steampunk as a more a contemporary version of what VSF should be (nothing wrong with that at all)...
But, that's kinda my point. As you're doing it now, it is a contemporary version of what VSF should be. If VSF is then and Steampunk is now-does-then, it's all Steampunk now whether we like it or not. We're not in the Victorian era, and therefore what we do isn't VSF.
Of course, Wells went on to be Edwardian Science Fiction and then even Georgian Science Fiction, so he's not 'pure' VSF - 'The Land Ironclads' for instance was written after Victoria died, and I'd say that's as VSF as anything. And Verne doesn't count, being French and not a 'Victorian'; and of course neither does ERB as he was American, and didn't start writing until after the Victorian era, so really John Carter is a kind of retro-Pulp.
But this is my point about how we define things. Push to hard and the entire definition of VSF just vanishes in a puff of smoke (or maybe steam). I can't see that any definition that says 'this is VSF, that is Steampunk' really has any logical validity. So it just becomes about labelling what we like as one thing (generally, it seems, 'VSF') and what we don't like as something else (generally 'Steampunk'). The terms don't really have any other validity beyond our own likes and dislikes (which are all different anyway).
Me, I like airships - aeronefs, ballons, zeppelins, Martian skiffs, whathaveyou. Not interested in, for example, Papa Midnight's zombies (though they're brilliantly painted and done with both humour and a great deal of imagination, I hope we'd all agree; I pick Papa Midnight as an example because I think his work is brilliant, but it's not a direction I'm interested in going particularly) because I don't game zombies in Victorian London. Are Victorian Zombies 'Steampunk'? Well, they appear in 'Queen Victoria: Demon Hunter' (a modern work) and not in HG Wells, so I guess they (and Papa Midnight's gaming) must be Steampunk. But Verne (assuming we can call Verne 'VSF') has airships, so, hurrah, I'm VSF.
But my VSF airships owe a lot to Philip Reeve (Mortal Engines) and Chris Wooding (Retribution Falls). Definitely 'Steampunk' rather than 'VSF' books, I'd argue. But then again, I don't see Steampunk as a term of abuse.
And, Skrapwelder - nice ... err ... triplet I suppose, rather than couplet. That's about the size of it - especially the jaunty airborne barque bit! Gotta love a jaunty airborne barque I reckon.
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Yes I agree that Steampunk is a throwback cousin to cyberpunk. Imagine William Gibson being born at the same time as Wells or Verne.
The "punk" part of the genre normally refers to a type of dystopian view of the future. When William Gibson wrote Neuromancer back in the eighties he viewed his future with drugs, bioimplants, virtual reality, artificial intelligence as a kind of nightmare world. Unfortunately for him a bunch of tech heads (cyber punks) in California thought it was cool and actually set out to try and create Gibson's nightmare future!
I think the movement had already started; I remember other similar stories of the period. However, don't have to imagine, as he tried it in The Differential Engine.
Steampunk is a dystopian future past.
VSF is deeply entrenched in the boundless enthusiasm of the late Victorian era when the world was opening up to the railway and steam ships. The time of the penny dailies described heroic feats of adventure and battles in places people could only dream of visiting. Gordon, Livingstone and others walked like giants on the world stage.
It was also when science and technology started to noticeably effect peoples lives and authors of the day like Wells, Verne, Conan Doyle etc. started to extrapolate these advances to their logical conclusions. I agree Wells was more pessimistic than Verne.
Personally I prefer VSF more than Steampunk. Also steampunk seems to fall into skirmish type gaming while with VSF I can have glorious epic battles with aeronef fleets or massed steam tank battles.
VSF can stretch into the Edwardian era culminating in WW1. After that I would call it the pulp period which then stretched to about 1950s.
cheers Fuzzy
Still disagreeing here; though your descriptions are perfectly understandable, I don't see them as being the norm. If there is one. Or particularly useful as measuring
By the way, let me side track this all a bit. When I started this thread, I certainly never intended to frustrate Mad Orc. I'm a silly fellow, but not suicidal. Much. ;->=
I did want to point out folks are arguing about it on regular threads, and would rather have flames on the topic first, though I did say 'civil' has been the hallmark of these discussions. Also, let me point out folks voicing worries about threads and posts wandering off is something I take seriously. Forum members without self-discipline can make meandering discussions damned unpleasant.
Now, the forum delineates Gothic Horror from VSF from SteamPunk, relegated to Other Adventures. If someone says they wouldn't play it that way, 'it feels too SteamPunk', no argument. If someone questions it's inclusion in a forum section at all, I'd like some benchmarks before I post so I can use judgment.
When I want to run a group of seldom-seen stunted fellows with proclivities to find riches deep underground and a knack for steam-driven engineering, I'm not sure I should be directed to a fantasy group. On the other hand, I wonder if I might sneak onto the more staid Colonial Adventures, given my Welsh background. :D
Doug
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Those vsf dwarves have a great bass section..but no top tenors.
Me sir... Baritone sir! This is a welsh regiment though there are some foreigners.
Couldn't help myself :D
cheers Fuzzy the welshman ;)
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But, that's kinda my point. As you're doing it now, it is a contemporary version of what VSF should be. If VSF is then and Steampunk is now-does-then, it's all Steampunk now whether we like it or not. We're not in the Victorian era, and therefore what we do isn't VSF.
I think perhaps my meaning got lost in the nuance of language (and the fact that I'm northern probably doesn't help). When I said contemporary I meant that the steampunkers are doing it with a leaning or bent towards a modern, or contemporary way of looking at the genre, whereas the VSF'ers are looking at it with a definite eye stuck in the in the late 19th century. To my mind, VSF'ers use 19th tech to simply solve 'future problems' as opposed to 'Steampunkers' using 19th tech to make what ever we fit any criteria, which is how steampunk appears to me.
To be honest, I don't think anyone is completely right or wrong, and as time goes on this divide will get even more narrower and narrower, but it is certainly an interesting discussion nonetheless.
cheers
James
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I think perhaps my meaning got lost in the nuance of language (and the fact that I'm northern probably doesn't help)...
Perhaps I didn't pick up your meaning old bean - still not sure I understand the distinction you're making; the fact that I suspect I'm more Northern than you might not help...
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Maybe part of what I'm trying to say is that 'Steampunk' is trendy and VSF is old school.
cheers
Jaems
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Maybe part of what I'm trying to say is that 'Steampunk' is trendy and VSF is old school.
That sums it up, nice and simple.
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Sorry, I have no real understanding of what those terms mean in this context. It just seems to come down to 'VSF is what I like, Steampunk is what I don't like' - which is my point; they only seem to refer to opinions. And we all have different opinions, so our definitions of what's what will be different.
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I love these "tr00 kvlt" discussions. Seems to be one in every hobby.
(sorry if you do not understand the expression. )
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Certainly don't but please feel free to enlighten us :)
And we all have different opinions, so our definitions of what's what will be different.
This is certainly the case with everything around us, but definition is what makes the world go round ;) (almost)
Steampunk as a term has (to my mind) only come into use in recent years and has taken a different angle to what VSF is or was.
How many 30-40+ Steampunkers do you see as opposed to VSF'ers?
I completely understand the fact that everything we do can be called contemporary but I feel it's taking a little bit of the spirit out of what we do.
cheer
James
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New to me, but transliterates to 'true cult', right?
Doug
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Yes indeed.
I think that though some of the points in this discussion are valid and interesting, you end discussing what is "true" and what is not. Which to me at least is of very little importance as long as what you're looking at is good. :)
Awwwhr never mind! lol
Now imagine two teenagers having the same sort of discussion about metal music:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Tr00%20Kvlt%20Metal
lol
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Wow that's sad, they can't even use real words.
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Hmm. I was thinking yesterday about people I used to know who'd say "Goth? I'm not Goth - I'm Darkwave". I think it really is the same kind of argument.
I'm a Goth, and I don't care who knows it.
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Wow that's sad, they can't even use real words.
While I understand, and echo, your sentiments, there's something a bit ironic about decrying not 'real words', given some of the techno-terms we use on the forum. ;->=
@Red Orc - Please understand, I fear BOTH a flood of wildly off-topic posts, and the rants of genre-correct thread nazis. Just trying to find a balance for myself in the interest of decorum.
All things in moderation, including moderation.
Really? 'Darkwave'? Are the italics required? Do they sparkle? ;)
Doug
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Dark and sparkly? Possibly. Off topic? Yeah probably (or only tangental to the topic).
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All things in moderation, including moderation...
Spoken like a true Methodist.
;)
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Okay, for a bit of threadnecromancy:
Firstly, you'll notice a number of previous posters are of the 'why worry' opinion, and I've no argument against, just find the topic of interest. If you don't, move along, nothing to see here. ;->=
Now, I've not seen a brew up in awhile, but the invocation of 'Is this too steampunk?' shows up now and then.
In answer to a comment I made concerning a list of movies, I saw a post on a Yahoo! group that seemed a different, but useful, addition to the conversation:
While Space:1889 is definitely late-Victorian, remember when the Wild
West was happening, and there is at least one movie set in the
Republic of Texas which has the good guys using lever-action
Winchester rifles. But, with the explosion of technology in the game
world, there's a definite resemblance with the Edwardian period, when
Victorian Europe was similarly changed by motor cars and aeroplanes
and Zeppelins.
The big crunch comes with the Great War, and the various revolutions
which took place. This, as I recall, is a part of the Reilly TV series
(and of Young Indiana Jones), and really does change things. It
shatters the Victorian sense of stability. The world of Space:1889 is
about extending the ideas of the Raj, and other colonies, to new
places, not about smashing the system.
This is also why I would be a bit wary of modern action/adventure
films such as Van Helsing. How are they Victorian? It would be pretty
trivial to recast that into the here-and-now, with the hero chasing
Vampires (and being chased), in a Jeep through the mountainous lands
of post-Soviet Eastern Europe. Though perhaps I'm a little too
inclined to forget modern mobile telephone technology, and what it
does to wreck so many movie plots. You can only have so many gaps in
coverage before it becomes a cliche. Brad, Janet, do you need to go to
that creepy house any more?
One thing that occurs to me is "Victorian sense of stability" also points to a British sensibility. Understandable, as it was, at least in naval might, THE world superpower against which all powers measured themselves. Sounds a bit too familiar, no?
I haven't mapped this directly to previous discussions, but I did have a 'that's it!' moment when I read it.
Doug
Edit: By the way, I was raised a Missouri Synod Lutheran, but have been so long off the reservation, it barely counts, save for the almost Jesuit fascination with finer points. lol
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I'd completely agree that WWI and the Russian Revolution completely changed the social outlook in Britain. And as you say, at the end of the 19th century Britain was the world's biggest superpower (not just because of the navy; it controlled about 1/4 of the land-surface of the planet at that point). The loss of confidence in Britain's 'manifest destiny' (to borrow a phrase) was quite a shock.
On the other hand, in the US and Germany, which were the rising powers of the 20th century, there was a much more optimistic sense of possibility I think (even given the chaos in Germany in 1918 and after). At least, until 1929 and the Wall Street Crash/Great Depression there was more of a sense of optimism.