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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: janner on February 13, 2011, 02:15:53 PM

Title: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Updated 17 Jun 2012
Post by: janner on February 13, 2011, 02:15:53 PM
Starting off fairly easy with a conroi of Templars under the Marshall carrying the piebald banner (possibly Geoffroy de Morin but still some more research required there) accompanied by ten knights - one of whom carried a spare banner wrapped around his lance - with the newly appointed Grand Master of the Temple (Robert de Sablé) in tow,.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0658.jpg)

I can find no evidence of horse coverings of any kind in use by the Templars, but the odd noble crusader might enjoy that distinction in due course.

I did originally have the odd figure with a painted helm, but decided that as brother-knights were expected to be modest in dress and that each had at least a couple of serjeants to keep the rust off, then it wouldn't be fitting.

The next call was on shields. There is debate as to whether they carried a red cross on a white background, were piebald like the banner or carried personal heraldry at this time. Evidence of Robert's heraldry showed that it changed on appointment to Grand Master from just the blue budgie on a yellow background to the one depicted below and this (along with later Teutonic practice) might draw one to conclude that this was the norm:

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0656.jpg)

Robert has also been kept modest in dress and equipment as he has only just entered the order (and faced near immediate election to Grand Master - it's not what you know...), although his horse furniture is little more elaborate.

I am not convinced that the privilege of carrying personal heraldry was enjoyed by anyone other than the Masters of the Templars. As to why I went down the piebald route, well a number of sources describe how Henry II, Philip II and the Count of Flanders agree to mark their contingents with white, red and green crosses respectively. I don't think that even Philip would have wanted to use the same mark as an established Military Order due to the likelihood on confusion in battle. However, this is just my feel on an issue that Helen Nicholson and David Nicolle haven't reconciled either.

They are led by the Marshal, but given the idiosyncrasies of WAB, the Order's chaplain figures as the unit leader. However, I removed his sword and scabbard to ensure that he could not spill blood and filled the gap with some greenstuff. He is dressed in black as per normal for priests of the Order. The unit musician is dressed as a serjeant - described as dressed in either dark brown or black. Given that Hopsitalller serjeants wore brown, I felt it appropriate for him to be in black with the red cross on the left breast. The Brother-Knight on the right flank has a spare banner wrapped around his lance as mentioned above.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0654.jpg)

Personally I think that the Reglé that has  survived is the version post-1190 edit. we know that is was redrafted following the capture (again) of Gerard de Rigefort and his subsequent execution by the Muslims and it would make sense that the Marshal became the formation commander at that point.

Now onto some foot - a mixed unit of serjeants belonging to Guy de Lusignan.

Deus Volt 'an all that...
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: Sterling Moose on February 13, 2011, 02:30:07 PM
Nice work Steve.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: SgtPerry on February 13, 2011, 02:36:36 PM
What a superb unit!
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: jamesmanto on February 13, 2011, 02:45:57 PM
Very nice. Looking forward to more.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: OSHIROmodels on February 13, 2011, 07:02:43 PM
Great stuff Steve, especially the research write up  8)

Not quite 2000pts though  ;D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: General Roos on February 13, 2011, 07:09:00 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: Captain Blood on February 13, 2011, 08:07:48 PM
Love 'em  :)
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: Malamute on February 13, 2011, 11:17:08 PM
Lovely stuff Steve. :-*
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: janner on February 14, 2011, 12:35:10 AM
Great stuff Steve, especially the research write up  8)

Not quite 2000pts though  ;D

cheers

James

Not quite - but the unit comes in at 400 pts and an extra 82 for the character so there be so much more to come!
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: Mr.J on February 14, 2011, 12:54:57 AM
Excellent! A very nice unit. Well researched and presented. The paintjobs are top notch!
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army
Post by: valleyboy on February 15, 2011, 06:55:17 PM
Lovely
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - New Danes
Post by: janner on August 31, 2011, 09:36:56 AM
Next batch of crusaders:

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0736.jpg)

Again these are from Perry Minis 28mm First Crusade range and represent a unit of Danish crusaders c. 1189. About 2,000 Danes and Frisians beached their fleet at Acre and marched almost immediately into battle under James de Avesnes – a hero of the tournament circuit who they had elected as their commander.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0739.jpg)

The unit commander, his standard bearer, hornblower and bodyguard (on the central stand of four figures) wear the colours of the royal house of Estridsen (Blue and Yellow). Although King Canute VI wasn’t on the Third Crusade, the size of the contingent and the lack of detail on Danish noble participation, led me to assume at least one knight of the royal household would have gone along.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0737.jpg)

The standard includes the Dannebrog (national flag of Denmark) on a field of Estridsen colours. Popular history tells of the Danneborg falling from the heavens during either during the battle of Lyndanisse (1219) or Fellin (1208), but it only appears in historical narratives of the 16th Century and some have suggested that it came from the strong Hospitaller presence in Denmark. However, a Danish crusader historian has suggested (over a few glasses of Carlsberg!) that the Dannebrog was based on a Papal banner given by Eugenius III at the time of the Second Crusade for the campaign against the Wends. So here it is – on the Third Crusade, but not yet in its modern form with similar schemes repeated on several shields. Flag and shields handed painted as usual.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0740.jpg)

Some titillation for the next batch (with a huge thanks to Soapy for doing the conversion work):

King Richard the Lionheart

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0743.jpg)

and a couple of his household knights

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0744.jpg)
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Malamute on August 31, 2011, 11:01:19 AM
Wonderful stuff :-*
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 31, 2011, 12:06:40 PM
Looking good mate, I like the shields in paticular  8)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: janner on August 31, 2011, 12:09:18 PM
As Soapy says, 'focus on bases, shields and banners' - what am I going to do when it comes to Sammies  o_o

Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: OSHIROmodels on August 31, 2011, 12:11:36 PM
 lol Two out of three might just work  ;)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: janner on August 31, 2011, 12:30:03 PM
and "two out of three ain't bad..."
 lol lol
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Mr.J on August 31, 2011, 02:33:47 PM
Very nice indeed. Just out of curiosity how do you do your basing? It looks top notch.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: janner on August 31, 2011, 03:05:45 PM
Very nice indeed. Just out of curiosity how do you do your basing? It looks top notch.

I super glue the minis unpainted onto metal bases from Precision - feel the steel etc!

The use Homebase Ready-Mix Interior Filler applied and then 'scuffed-up' with a small knife.

Sprayed black, heavy dry-brushed Snakebite leather, gradually adding more white to the snakebite with progressively lighter dry-brushing - normally mid colour and then almost white highlight. Sounds complicated, but, once the undercoat is dry, it only takes a few minutes per base in a production line of several units.

Once the mini is complete, I then add some patches of static grass using wood glue, spray on varnish matt, paint any metal with gloss varnish and then super glue on tufts - two shades for this one: early 'fall' and winter I think from MiniNatur.

Hope that helps,



Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: jamesmanto on August 31, 2011, 04:56:06 PM
Those Danes are absolutely splendid! 8) :-*

I love that period; just something about conical helmets and kite shields! And your shields are just  :o

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Hammers on August 31, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
Good work, that man! Nice to hear a bit about the history to.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Marine0846 on September 03, 2011, 02:13:42 AM
Excellent painting of all the figures. Like the history you present with the figures.
I tend to be lazy about adding history and telling a story.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Engel on September 03, 2011, 07:35:45 AM
Very nice.
And as writen already, its fun to hear a little bit of history along with thouse beutiful miniatures.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - new Danes
Post by: Blackwolf on September 03, 2011, 08:37:19 AM
I like 'em very much,shields as mentioned are beautiful :-*
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: janner on November 14, 2011, 12:42:15 PM
Still some tufts to add to the bases and gloss varnish for the armour:

Richard I

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/RichardI.jpg)

Richard's arms are based on his first royal seal showing the two lions of the duchies of Normandy and Poitou, which changed to the more familiar three lions (the third probably representing Aquitaine) towards the end of his reign and after his return form crusade.

Roger de Harcourt, household knight and companion to Richard I, and a royal serjeant

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/Team-1.jpg)

Roger wears the family heraldry (at this time heraldry was more a family than individual thing) and the serjeant carries a shield bearing a white cross (as agreed in Jan 1189 with King Philip II and the count of Flanders) superimposed with Richard's probable royal arms (see above).

Just the unit banner to paint and then I'll post the full unit  ;)
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: Malamute on November 14, 2011, 12:45:58 PM
Splendid stuff, keep 'Em coming ;D
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 14, 2011, 12:49:40 PM
Not crusaders, SAMURAI  ;D

The barding looks particularly good  8)

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: Malamute on November 14, 2011, 12:55:08 PM
Not crusaders, SAMURAI  ;D


NO! More Crusaders :D
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 14, 2011, 12:57:26 PM
NO! More Crusaders :D

NO! More Samurai  ;D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: Malamute on November 14, 2011, 12:59:19 PM
NO! More Samurai  ;D

cheers

James

 lol You fool! lol
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: Steve F on November 14, 2011, 01:07:48 PM
No more samurai?

Back to the topic: I'm enjoying not just yur fine painting, Janner, but also the explanations of your colour and design choices.  Keep it coming, please?
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: janner on November 14, 2011, 01:20:05 PM
No more samurai?

Back to the topic: I'm enjoying not just yur fine painting, Janner, but also the explanations of your colour and design choices.  Keep it coming, please?

This will be the last unit for now. Although I've another unit of knights, some crossbowmen, archers and character figures stood by, I've a promise to keep with a Samurai clan based and awaiting paint.

 lol lol lol
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Richard I
Post by: janner on November 14, 2011, 01:22:38 PM
Not crusaders, SAMURAI  ;D

The barding looks particularly good  8)

cheers

James

Yes, big hand to Soapy for kindly sculpting that for me - wait to you see what he did for the unit leader  :-*
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: janner on November 27, 2011, 11:31:37 AM
With the standard completed I can now show the finished unit in all its glory:

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0772.jpg)

Ten knights of Richard I’s household in Palestine c. 1191. Following-on from the information given on the heraldry of the royal liveried knight/serjeant and Roger de Harcourt, the unit is led by Stephen of Thornham (Turnham), royal marshal and brother to Robert, justiciar of the royal fleet and, then Cyprus. Due to Howden’s translation of his name into Latin (Stephanus de Toronis) being the same as Stephen de Tours, royal steward and former seneschal of Anjou, there has been some confusion as to whether they were one and the same chap. By studying witness lists in various charters, it can be established that they were clearly two separate characters – both of whom were with Richard in the Holy Land. I've taken a different approach to Stephen's caparison and inserted the same heraldry as the shield on a blue background - this is to compliment the heraldry I had chosen for Richard's household, which can be seen on the musician behind him (such as might be expected by a senior official of the royal household).

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0775.jpg)

The standard is carried by Peter des Préaux, who is described as replacing Robert Trussebot for that task. To his right is his eldest brother John, lord of Préaux, and to his rear another brother and also a royal steward, Roger. As steward, Roger is keeping close eye on the trumpeter to ensure he follows the direction of the marshal. All three bear the heraldry of the des Préaux family - a gold eagle on a red background. A fourth brother, William des Préaux, gave himself up to the Muslims during a skirmish in September 1191 to allow the king to escape. One of Richard’s last acts in Palestine was to buy William’s freedom. The final brother, Engleraw, remained in the West as part of Prince John’s household. Finally, to the rear right is Gilbert Talbot, who was rewarded with the custodianship of the royal castle of Ludlow following his service with Richard in the Levant.

edit: spaces put in as it seemed a little crammed  ;)
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: janner on November 27, 2011, 11:50:29 AM
blush!

I forgot the unit leader ... Andrew de Chauvigny, cousin to Richard I and overseer of the regulations for the Third Crusade written in Messina in October 1190. He was given the hand of Denise, countess of Devon, daughter and heiress of Ralph VII de Deols by Richard I and married by bishop of Rochester in August 1189.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Wargaming/DSCF0768.jpg)

Andrew wasn’t the luckiest of chaps, he was unhorsed by William Marshall and severely broke his arm when Henry II's rearguard clashed with Count Richard's vanguard outside Le Mans in 1189. Then he broke it again whilst rescuing the earl of Leicester in Palestine in December 1191. However, he was certainly brave. His standard was one of the first raised above the walls of Darum during King Richard I's assault (22 May 1192) and he participated in repulse of Mamluk counter attack at Jaffa - one of only 10 with a horse (August 1192). Finally, in terms of the Third Crusade, he was the commander of first party of pilgrims to Jerusalem.

Rather than replicate the arms of his shield on the caparison, I have chosen to just use the red diamond symbol, which would be easy to distinguish on the battlefield and in line with representations of other caparisons from the period.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: OSHIROmodels on November 27, 2011, 12:05:36 PM
Cracking stuff Steve  :-*  :-* The history does lend a very realistic air to the whole bunch  :)

Now stop pissing around and get on with those samurai  ;D

cheers

James
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: WuZhuiQiu on November 27, 2011, 01:26:31 PM
Brilliant work! What historical references would you recommend to those who might want to put a much history into their Crusader units as you have into this one?
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: janner on November 27, 2011, 03:15:02 PM
Quote from: Bezzo
All that last knight does is establish this as a wonderful bunch of figures. The mud on the bottom of the horse caparison (?) is just great. Knockout painting guy. If I had a quarter of your skill I'd be happy.

Just some dappling of GW browns with an old brush for the mud - mind you, I nearly went cross-eyed doing the diamonds  lol lol lol

Brilliant work! What historical references would you recommend to those who might want to put a much history into their Crusader units as you have into this one?

There is more out there for the Second and Fourth Crusades with Jonathan Phillip's books a useful starting point in each case. While, Tom Asbridge's The Crusades – The War for the Holy Land majors on the Third Crusade, a modern history of the Third Crusade has yet to be published. This data all falls out of two year's research on Richard's household 1189-92. So it is all drawn from primary sources: narratives, verse and charter materiel. Bits will either published in the next year or so, or may await the final PhD (a study of participants on the Third Crusade), but I'm happy to share some of the results for your personal use.

I have a bit on the earl of Leicester's household (that unit will be painted up next year - yes, after the Sammies James), plenty more on Richard's and should be able to give you some strong pointers on the 'French'. Let me know what you are after by pm and we'll see what we can dig up between us.

Regards,
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: jamesmanto on November 27, 2011, 03:23:11 PM
 :o
Fek me those are brilliant!

Happens to be one of the eras i love too.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: killshot on November 27, 2011, 04:36:21 PM
 :-* :-* :-*  :-*Says it all!
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: Arthur on November 27, 2011, 06:26:16 PM
Truly nice. Michael Perry needs to get back to his Crusades range and do some mid- to-late 12th century knights though... 
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: galvinm on November 29, 2011, 03:53:13 AM
Awesome work. keep the updates coming.
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: dijit on November 30, 2011, 01:16:57 PM
Beautiful work Stephen. They totally out shine any of WAB stuff.
Duncan
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: janner on November 30, 2011, 02:34:26 PM
Beautiful work Stephen. They totally out shine any of WAB stuff.
Duncan

That'll be the gloss varnish on the armour  lol lol lol

okay, I'll get my coat ...
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Done for now!
Post by: Lowtardog on November 30, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Stunning work :-*
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Updated 17 Jun 2012
Post by: janner on June 17, 2012, 09:45:29 AM
The start of a new unit of Hospitaller serjeants. First the crossbowmen:

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Medievals/5535226d.jpg)

Rather than brother serjeants. These are basic soldiers for hire used by the Military Orders and nobles to bulk out their ranks. I've given them brown shirts to match the colour brother serjeants wore and added the odd black and white helmet, but the unit will feel more hospitaller-like when the spearmen with white crossed on black painted shields have been done.

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd141/jannerxi/Medievals/b69ed6cc.jpg)

In the mean time, back to the HYW (and some Sammies)
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Updated 17 Jun 2012
Post by: Dalauppror on June 17, 2012, 02:43:38 PM
Looking very good !

Very nice buildings in the back to !

best regards Michael
Title: Re: The beginnings of my Third Crusade Army - Updated 17 Jun 2012
Post by: janner on June 17, 2012, 04:46:40 PM
I'm such a sucker for Grand Manner