Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Gothic Horror => Topic started by: Anatoli on February 14, 2011, 12:59:50 PM
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Through my email correspondence with West Wind I learned that they were secretly working on a Gothic Horror themed game a few months back. After some emailing back and forth I got a bit of information about it and the permission to share some of the artwork that Andy Cooper has been drawing for the rulebook.
More info and pictures on my blog:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.com/2011/02/empire-of-dead-upcoming-west-wind-game.html
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/empire.jpg)
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/coffindodger.jpg)
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Excellent, thank for the heads up Anatoli.
This looks to be great news; another new systems and yet more Westwind miniatures! By the sounds of it they should be compatible with the existing GH range.
The art is interesting, some of it almost looks steampunk-ish or slightly VSF. Its also interesting to note the oriental lady in the art work.
Do we know if this will be a skirmish game?
Obviously there isn't too much to discuss about the rules yet. But like yourself I'm looking forward to using D10s again.
If you hear anything else keep us updated. Please.
Cheers
Andy
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Sounds very interesting, I am a fan of the exisiting miniatures range, ;D
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Very interesting, thanks for passing on the news.
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From what Andy said I take it will be a skirmish game since you only have a handfull of miniatures per side, I've really come to like the small scale skirmish stuff. Less expensive and easier to get into (at least you can try it out without bleeding your wallet dry) :)
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From what Andy said I take it will be a skirmish game since you only have a handfull of miniatures per side, I've really come to like the small scale skirmish stuff. Less expensive and easier to get into (at least you can try it out without bleeding your wallet dry) :)
Doh! I actually read that in your blog! One of the hazards of browsing and painting I suppose!
Cheers
andy
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Looking good!
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Just read about this on your Blog and have to say I'm very intrigued. Being a fan of Song of Blades and Heroes I recently bought Fear and Faith (based on the same engine) for my Gothic Horror project and am rather impressed with it. What I like about these Ganesha rule-sets is that there are 'party builders' on-line which allow you to generate your own profiles and points values. Still, I'd certainly be interested in getting Empire of the Dead. And new minis too!
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That looks excellent - the artwork is just great, and a new range of GH minis as well!
Lets hope its better proof read than Vampire Wars!
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I really enjoy my Chaos in Carpathia games but, I have to say, considering that there are 40 Westwind Horror models painted on my shelf, I am quite excited to hear this news. So it's a D10 game, you say? I've never played a Westwind game, so I have no idea what to expect.
J
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I was told this around 4 weeks ago after putting a order in over the phone,
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I see that West Wind are down for doing a demo of this at Salute, but un-confirmed as yet.
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So does anyone have any fact or conjecture about factions of warbands?
If they are building on their current miniature range one would expect some version of vampires, werewolves, and humans, but I wonder how many there will be and how many options will be available? As someone pointed out above, some of the artwork has a VSF flavour. Can't wait to hear more about this game.
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No idea just yet, I guess they will unveil more stuff as the book nears completion.
Would be interesting if it was more than "good" vs "evil", does anyone know if there were factions and what they looked like in the Gothic Horror rulebook?
All the good stuff is happening in the UK ... thinking of Salute... sucks to live in Sweden as we don’t have big and interesting miniature wargame conventions of the sort you guys get in the UK.
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Any news on when for a release? 2011? 2012?
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Summer/September 2011.
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Steinhammer
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo254/Mrcastlesotr/SoTRII/PHILS2003-1.jpg)
Mr. Chop
(http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo254/Mrcastlesotr/SoTRII/PHILS2001-1.jpg)
A couple of character minis from the game.
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I think that I love these! Looking forward to this coming out.
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They look interesting. I'm certainly curious to see the rules and full miniature range when they're released.
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I'm not really a fan of unrealisticaly large weapons!
Still I hold out hope for this game!
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Hi,
looks like a relaunch of Vampire Wars to me. But thats ok. I liked the game, I like the miniatures. I will have a look at this new game and good luck for it.
Cheers
Björn
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I hope the rules are better than those miniatures!
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The game looks interesting and the art work is great. I like the ide of a d10 too.
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Miniatures (last two) totally turn me off! :'(
Well, if the rules are not locked into specific figures ::) there is much hope. :)
Time will tell. lol
Gracias,
Glenn
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I kinda like them, I agree with some that the big weapons do look a bit goofy. These are just two examples though in what I'm sure (hopefully.... :?) will be a fun new range with lots of cool new minis!
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I kinda like them, I agree with some that the big weapons do look a bit goofy. These are just two examples though in what I'm sure (hopefully.... :?) will be a fun new range with lots of cool new minis!
We will see.
Hope springs eternal. Reality is a constant.
If nothing else I may buy the rules for data-mining and inspiration.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Those models would work perfectly with Malifaux, and probably with a lot of other games as well. I like them.
Big Frank, that looks like the brushwork of Phil/MrCastle? Totaly his style :)
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Anybody heard any more about how things are progressing with this new game?
My emails to Westwind are obviously falling on deaf ears as not had any replies :?
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From what I heard they worked on the rulebook , so it should be released sometime in Q3 this year. I'll see if I can get in touch with WW.
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Yeah, I would like to see some more news on this as well! I wanna see new minis!
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Yea... Not hip on the new figs.
I am just hoping its better than their Secrets of the Third Reich game. :-[
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Emailed Wendy over at WestWind to check how things are going with their "Empire of the Dead" rules, and got a tiny bit of information.
The release is scheduled for November. Currently they are working on a demo scenario which will show off the rules and ideas of the game. From what I learned the scenario will revolve around a famous London based detective and his sidekick as well as a certain famous London serial killer.
Expect that demo scenario to be reviewed and played with a battle report following here and on my blog as soon as it is released :-)
From what I gather the game will use a lot of the existing Gothic Horror range.
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Ooooooh... now I'm even more excited :D
Definitely one to watch & really looking forward to your review. Keep us posted with any further little snippets you can prize out of Westwind.
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Well I got my hands on some models intended for the demo scenario. Jack the Ripper, Holmes+Watson, female victims and some London Bobbies for starters. I'll create a new thread for my entire Empire of the Dead project in this section of the forum when I start painting next week :)
There was also a large blister of London civilians and London gentlemen in the demo pack, I'm trying to figure out exactly how many models are needed so I don't paint up more than "enough" since I already have a few generic civilians painte dup from the Gothic Horror range.
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Best and evergreen game!! Loving steps and each one create a great excitement.
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Just love Mr Chop!
I was looking for a monstruous chief for a slaanesh champion's retinue, well he will have the job!
Oh and Steinhammer will perfectly have his place in a "the Goon" game. :)
Thank you for the informations Anatoli, that s cool.
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Don't know how I managed to avoid this thread for so long.... :o
I'm excited... :)
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Looks very interesting. Might have to spend some pennys for this.
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Hmm looks nice. I like Westwind's mini's (I'm also waiting on Incursion from the postman). I'll keep an eye on this.
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Any word yet? November draws dangerously near...
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Nothing on the release or the demo rules yet I'm affraid, :?
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I'm not really a fan of unrealisticaly large weapons!
Still I hold out hope for this game!
That's funny; I had the opposite reaction...I thought the minis were cool, but I don't care about a rules release. One of the things that I find truly attractive about L.A.F. is the diversity of viewpoints.
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It now says on there site spring 2012
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don't really like those cartoon figures, but I hope the rules are good and usable in different scales. Those figures look like Citadel back in the 80's / early 90's. At least the first ogre type.
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Jack the Ripper, Holmes+Watson, female victims and some London Bobbies for starters.
Soo... The demo is just the re-hash of the Vamp Wars Scenario?
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I have not played or seen the Vampire Wars rules so I can't comment on it. I know the Vampire Wars rulebook was an epic fail according to pretty much everyone who bought those rules though, but I think lessons might have been learned from that last attempt and they seem to have put a lot of time into this game with delays to straighten out rules and design choices of the book itself.
I am willing to give the game a try, having a completely "untainted" approach towards the rules.
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Nw I know why I have avoided GH board and this thread for months, these are perhaps must buys!
Hope they match foundry Victoriana
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Or perhaps not, then I won't HAVE to buy them!
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Sort've leaning towards the viewpoint shared by some others in the thread; don't like the cartoony figures, but hope the rules are good. Thing for me about Horror is I likes it dark and grim, rather than goofy and such. Maybe Call of Cthulhu's folder will suit me better lol
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Demo rules and a small scenario have been posted on the new West Wind forum.
Just glanced at the contents, the document seems to be pretty bare bones so it's hard to make an opinion about how the rules might be or turn out just yet. There are things that look promising in the game mechanics, and I'll try to get a game of these demo rules going during the week to come and see how they play.
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.com/2012/02/empire-of-dead-quickstart-rules.html
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Empire%20of%20the%20Dead/Eotdcoverlores.jpg)
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Well, they look really great to me. I'm more than happy with Chaos in Carpathia but, based on this demo, I will be buying the rulebook and trying it out at the very least. I'm curious to see if the full version allows one to make up characters or to use existing miniatures. I have 40 or 50 miniatures from Westwind's Gothic Horror line painted and on my shelf at present.
I should add, I thought that the minis shown on page 3 of that document look quite nice.
The only issue with the starter is the setting. I have lots of terrain to reproduce backwater Eastern Europe, Old Graveyards, and Underground Crypts. What I don't have is Victorian Urban. I guess I could test the rules with a Eastern European mod using what I have.
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Yeah I hope that the game will not be based upon a urban setting alone as I have the same problem.
I think I'll have to transport the Ripper to some central European rural village when I play the demo scenario. It should work just fine.
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Thanks for the heads up Anatoli!
I downloaded them right away. I imagine they will will have a lot of scenarios for rural locations as well.
I'm not sure how I feel about the shorter snouted, Lon Chaney style werewolves in the PDF.
I love your blog by the way. :-*
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Thanks :)
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Well a few snippets have gleaned that respond to some of these posts.
The rules have gone to print so as predicted Salute will be the grand unveiling, but you probably all already knew that.
The game has an in-built campaign mechanic so people can most certainly build their own characters.
For those that haven't played it yet the demo scenario is great fun and for a demo has quite a few tactical twists if you read into them.
Expect more updates in the next week or two as the teasers start to flow out.
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Any chance the full rules will be available as a download?
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I think there is more chance of me winning the Lottery tonight to be honest.
Like anything I guess massive amounts of time and effort go into rules writing and publication so not unreasonable to sell the fruits of labour. Of course I don't know for definite but I'd be really surprised.
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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I did mean a purchased pdf when I said download. There are companies that offer their rules as such.
I have the teaser set of rules and am quite impressed. I'm running a convention game in late May and was considering a switch to these rules over the CinC rules. With a mid April release date a pdf sale would be the only way I could see a full set in time to be able to use them in May.
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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I did mean a purchased pdf when I said download. There are companies that offer their rules as such.
You were pretty clear
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I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I did mean a purchased pdf when I said download. There are companies that offer their rules as such.
I have the teaser set of rules and am quite impressed. I'm running a convention game in late May and was considering a switch to these rules over the CinC rules. With a mid April release date a pdf sale would be the only way I could see a full set in time to be able to use them in May.
Maybe you should email them? They may be able to send you a pre-release copy of the book - they must have one for proof reading etc, and if they are releasing at a show they should have some in stock before the show date
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Apologies no intention to be overly facetious. I guess I am just too used to people in some forums (although not here I must say) expecting things to be free.
I know some companies do worry that even paid for digital copies get pirated quickly - and again no suggestion that would apply here. Still if you don't ask you will never get. Maybe an email to them would be in order, I have always found them very helpful and honest about such things.
Agree though the rule set is pretty impressive and have played it several times now with friends. Personally am really looking forward to the middle of April. Not played much CinC or other gothic horror games but do love the genre.
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No offense taken, as I'm sure none was offered. :)
I fully understand the worries and am always pleasantly surprised when a company offers up their rules as a pdf. It is a risky venture and not something you see from many companies, especially at initial release.
My hope is that I can get a set of the rules in time to use them for a large game I'll be running at Kubla Con here in California, in late May.
I've sent a request to West Wind for any information on a release date and hope to hear back soon.
Mike
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Good News! I just got an e-mail from Wendy Cooper at West Wind. The rules will be available for pre-order this week and ready to ship April 30.
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Shame it won't be available at Salute.
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Those new wolves look awesome: http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/empire_look.php
I wonder what the price tag will be on the rulebook (and those wolves)
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Those new wolves look awesome: http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/empire_look.php
I wonder what the price tag will be on the rulebook (and those wolves)
Also the other minis look nice.
Like the Werewolf :-*
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According to the Westwind forum copies will be available at Salute.
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My only issue with the wolves is there only seems to be two poses, with a pack type 'unit' you really need at least three.
Edit: for poor spelling.
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I think that there will be products available at Salute as far as I am aware I shall findard Salu out tomorrow and update. But the last I heard Salute was the day of launch with mail orders out on the 30th.
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And the pre-orders are up see here
http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/index.php?cPath=204
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I like a lot of the new minis, but wasn't Cedric Hyde named Steinhammer before? That's kinda lame. I was really hoping for a new Hyde.
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Those box sets look really sweet to me. The Brotherhood and the Vampire clan are particulary cool. Actually, I love all of them. I guess I shall have to pre-order the rulebook.
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As I was not on the LAF for a long time, I juste discover EotD yesterday ....
Juste one thing to say: ;D ;D ;D
I'm going pre-order now !
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I like a lot of the new minis, but wasn't Cedric Hyde named Steinhammer before? That's kinda lame. I was really hoping for a new Hyde.
As was I. That's a shame.
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Very nice zombies:
(http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/images/EOTD-05-victorian-zombies.jpg)
I think my resistance to the world of gothic horror is about to crumble, best get on the blower to Wendy and secure a Salute collection pre-order! :D
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Wow those are nice zombies. :-*
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For those that still don't know, the release date for EotD will be during the Salute convention in April. West Wind have also just recently revealed pictures of the faction boxed sets and a bunch of characters for the game.
It all looks pretty damn cool to me and has great potential to be used outside of the game for other projects.
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2012/03/empire-of-dead-release-date-and-new.html
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Empire%20of%20the%20Dead/EOTDmp4.jpg)
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Yup aware, all on their website, cheers. Good potential VSF/steampunk crossover uses here, add cthulhu by gaslight and we've got the makings of something wonderful! ;)
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Btw anyone from LAF going to the Salute convention?
If so, it would be great if you could take lots of pictures for the rest of us unable to attend :)
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Ok, I was wrong about this game. Looking at all the recent previews and preorders, it looks amazing! It isn't remotely 'cartoony' and the figures with big weapons make sense anyway with them being demonic or "Mr Hyde". I will be getting this. I'm eyeing up the £80 deal with the book and 2 starter gangs.
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All things willing Anatoli I'll be there so will get lots of pics for here.
As everyone seems so excited I have some background left over that didn't get into the book, I'll ask Mr Cooper nicely if he'll let me post a little bit here.
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Btw anyone from LAF going to the Salute convention?
If so, it would be great if you could take lots of pictures for the rest of us unable to attend :)
I'll be at Salute, I'll see what I can do.
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I helped run a demo game at WMMS last weekend using the quick play rules, it was very popular and went down well with those who played. The mechanics are easy to understand and make for some great games. I'll be investing in the concept.
There's a lot of potential for this game and as the Commander has pointed out plenty of crossover uses.
The Westwind figures are looking promising and I've also got my eye on the Lead Adventure Miniatures, they are ideal for some factions I have in mind.
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I've just been browsing through the WW site and have to say that their new miniatures for EotD look absolutely fantastic (even if you've no intention of buying the rulebook!). I'll certainly be picking some up.
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Very nice zombies:
(http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/images/EOTD-05-victorian-zombies.jpg)
I think my resistance to the world of gothic horror is about to crumble, best get on the blower to Wendy and secure a Salute collection pre-order! :D
Very nice, at least 50% of those are no-work-required deadlands crossover too :D :D That second zombie could almost make the Ghost Abe Lincoln!
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Ok, I was wrong about this game. Looking at all the recent previews and preorders, it looks amazing! It isn't remotely 'cartoony' and the figures with big weapons make sense anyway with them being demonic or "Mr Hyde". I will be getting this. I'm eyeing up the £80 deal with the book and 2 starter gangs.
Is that a limited run deal?
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The deal is limited as it comes with special character called Profesor Lazarus. The factions and rules are of course available separately.
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Cheers, just looked
I'd even say that the vampire and brotherhood are Mordheim crossover!!!
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I think Andy Cooper have outdone himself with this range. I really liked some of his later work on the Doomsday range for SoTR, and were always a fan of the Gothic Horror/Vampire Wars range - but these new additions are really damn nice.
But let's not forget, a superb paintjob helps to sell the potential of the minis as well in no small part.
Edit:
I think it should be possible to run something of a "Abraham Lincoln vampire hunter" scenario with these rules, (hate the idea for a movie but think it would fit a miniature wargame a lot better).
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I think Andy Cooper have outdone himself with this range. I really liked some of his later work on the Doomsday range for SoTR, and were always a fan of the Gothic Horror/Vampire Wars range - but these new additions are really damn nice.
But let's not forget, a superb paintjob helps to sell the potential of the minis as well in no small part.
Edit:
I think it should be possible to run something of a "Abraham Lincoln vampire hunter" scenario with these rules, (hate the idea for a movie but think it would fit a miniature wargame a lot better).
Are they really making a Lincoln vampire film?
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Are they really making a Lincoln vampire film?
Already done:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1611224/
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Our school club will hopefully be building London terrain next month.
Shame they haven't got some pdf London slums to download with the intro scenario.
Luckily it came just a couple of weeks too late for our next school open day, so at the moment we are busy building a western town.
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Our school club will hopefully be building London terrain next month.
Shame they haven't got some pdf London slums to download with the intro scenario.
You could be on to a winner there. I cant think of much on the market at the moment of that nature. There's the buildings from TVAG or maybe some from there will work:
http://www.wargamevault.com/index.php?filters=0_40209_0_0&manufacturers_id=4244
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Where is Papamidnight? This game is right up his dark & twisted alley.
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Well as promised, here is a little poem I put together that didn't get a place in the book, it's based on AA Milne's Vespers for anyone that doesn't know it....
Little Boy kneels at the foot of the bed,
Droops on the little hands little gold head .
Hush! Hush! What’s that on the stairs?
A ghoul or a fiend from someone’s nightmares?
‘God save us from evil, God save us from fright.
Another man slain in the dark streets tonight
Who will protect us? Who will prevail?
Who will preserve us where all good men fail?
‘Now all of mankind faces beasts born in myth,
That rise from the grave or forest or rift
They stalk through the city, the fields and the wood
Oh Lord please protect me, I wish that you would.
‘I fear for my sister, I fear for Papa ,
I fear that they plan to steal my Mama.
As darkness descends on the city this night,
I fear that I’ll never more see the sunlight.
‘The shadows on walls, the whispers in trees
The chill winds that cause my body to freeze.
The echoes of ages, of legend and fable
From all of these keep me however you’re able!’
Little Boy kneels at the foot of the bed,
Droops on the little hands little gold head.
Hush! Hush! Heed what he said ,
This is the world of Empire of the Dead.
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Where is Papamidnight? This game is right up his dark & twisted alley.
I've PM'd Al so he should be along at some stage.
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You could be on to a winner there. I cant think of much on the market at the moment of that nature.
Thanks for the links.
TVAG is probably the best option, but to me still looks more Gangs of New York than Gangs of Whitechapel.
As we have now broken up for Easter, if anyone has any decent images of Whitechapel back streets, or even better, blueprints suitable for 12-13 year olds to assemble from foamcore board I'd appreciate it. They have just started building Gary Chalk style pirate ships for gaming the War of 1812 on the Great Lakes, so I have about a month to come up with some plans.
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Bear with me chum, I'll send you some info. Are you savvy with Google Streetview?
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I have a ton of images I've collected on the web for research. I'd be glad to put them into a pdf and send them to you if you like.
I found this recently. It looks like some research someone did into the Potter books but its got some nice plans and pictures.
http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/Spinners_End.htm (http://members.madasafish.com/~cj_whitehound/Fanfic/Spinners_End.htm)
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TC - not particularly savvy with streetview. Might have seen it a couple of times.
SW - Spinners End looks interesting.
Would love to see some PDFs, I had already looked for your earlier LAF posts on Victorian buildings but they don't seem to have pictures now.
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I'm in the process of fixing that. I got a new hosting service and took the opportunity to weed out some of the dross from my old files.
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I've had a look at the sample rules and it looks pretty interesting. I'm really more interested in the minis as it will mean I don't have to do quite so many conversions to create Victorian Zombies. The weird thing is I've been converting westwind minis into zeds for years...... lol
I will probably just order some zombies for the time being and wait for the game to be out for a while so I can see some reviews before I take the plunge with yet another rule set!!!
Regards
PM
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(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/529254_409415792404419_339839019362097_1561614_729529831_n.jpg)
new nemonian concept art !
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Just had a peep at the new rulebook and it's very impressive. I only had five minutes so it was a quick thumb through. The concept looks good and from what I saw there is plenty of background and mechanics to help you tailor your own characters and factions; it seems they are categorised into good, neutral, evil etc and looking at werewolves they are neutral so that could be interesting. Loads of eye candy (I would say that as my Victorian layout is in there ;)) and as I said over on the VSF board if they turn some of the art into actual figures I'll be buying them.
I'll have more time to look at them tomorrow so I'll keep you posted. I was sold on the quickplay rules so as long as they haven't been over complicated Westwind have done good.
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Loads of eye candy (I would say that as my Victorian layout is in there ;))
Does that mean some of my creations are in there too? :D ;D
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Oooh yes.... and remarkably similar designs on eBay too. ;)
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I like the concept drawing of the deep sea diver. Any ideas when he'll be available?
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You could also use that diver to clear out the monsters/bad guys from the Thames, or flooded sewers :)
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I like the concept drawing of the deep sea diver. Any ideas when he'll be available?
I'll ask Westwind at Salute and let you know.
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I got the two Deep Sea Divers from Lead Adventure simply for the two mechanics that went along but now have something to do with the divers. They make excellent Victorian Haz Mat suits.
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Received a box of zombies and the rules this morning.
First impressions: like the zombies. A little "slighter" in build to previous westwind stuff but very nice indeed. Also got an extra free zed and the limited edition mini.
The rulebook is very nice, with lots of pics and rules examples. Haven't really had time to have a proper look but the quality is spot on. Only slight concern is that the cover is "matte" and I'm not sure how hard wearing it will be.
Regards
PM
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@Pappa Midnight,
If the book is softcover I think you have to apply that transparent plastic self adherent sheet you can buy in paper supply stores. I've used that on all my softcover rulebooks to prevent wear and tear, especially between games when you put it into your bag.
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@Pappa Midnight,
If the book is softcover I think you have to apply that transparent plastic self adherent sheet you can buy in paper supply stores. I've used that on all my softcover rulebooks to prevent wear and tear, especially between games when you put it into your bag.
Yeah, I've done the same with some of my books. I'm always a little worried about not getting it quite right and ending up with creases..... BTW This one has a hard cover.
It's a shame that you can't get a PDF version as well because I find it handy for browsing on my iPad etc.
Regards
PM
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I have that same worry when I try to do that myself. My "flawless" success ratio is about 50%, most often I tend to get one side perfect and a bubble or two that create a crease on the other side.
Hardback should be easier to apply the protective sheet upon though.
Really looking forward to getting a copy of the rules myself, the demo rules were very "bare bones" but provided some insight into what might be a very nice set of rules.
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I really like what i have seen sofar... but where is all the steampunk, i have only seen victorian horror stuff but no steampunk what so ever... well except for maybe the diver but all models released sofar are just run of the mill horror... :(
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Is there any more information on the game? Are there army lists and points values? What factions are featured in the book? Are there scenarios (how many)?. Do they recommend specific table sizes? How does the campaign system work? Are all models individuals or do you also include units?
I'd also be interested to see some army lists from people who already played some games.
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@mo The first sets of figures are, indeed, geared towards horror rather than steampunk but this is very much the first batch of figures and in the rulebook there is lots of steampunk stuff to whet your appetite, all sorts of steam and infernium powered devices.
@Mike There are eight Factions in the initial rulebook and the first batch of characters in an online supplement is out early next week. A starting Faction is 150 shillings. For mine that's just four models but can be six or seven. Each model has a points value (shillings) which you enhance with equipment.
In the campaign section yu gain shillings based upon scenarios (there are seven or so in the book) and with that you can enhance skillis, buy equipment or get wounded models healed.
It uses individual models to build a Faction so no units as such.
My Faction list of 150 shillings from the Brotherhood is:
Deacon with heavy pistol, bludgeon and half armour
Knights marshall with bludgeon, silver sword, holy symbol and full armour
Brother with light pistol and bludgeon
Brother with hand crossbow and bludgeon
Two influence points (these help you alter die rolls or call down unusual occurrences)
That comes to just short of 150 shillings.
We play on a 4' x 4' table (any size works to be honest) and have played on boards with a full-blown town, a small village and open plains and woodlands. All worked well.
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I've just created my first faction based on the Gentleman's Club: The Invigilators. Pics soon.
Some rather nifty weaponry and fangled machinery can be had for your shillings but you are limited to what your characters can carry and use so it doesn't get out of hand or silly.
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As the game is set in 1888, I don't suppose anyone knows if a 28-ish mm model of this thing is around anywhere?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0c/Motorwagen_Serienversion.jpg/800px-Motorwagen_Serienversion.jpg)
It'd be great to have a Benz Patent-Motorwagen or two for the Gentleman's Club. Stands to reason those rather well off gentlemen would have some of the first cars.
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I picked up a Mercedes Omnibus model that seems to be the right size.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7076/6884840400_094caf62cd_z.jpg)
This would carry your whole club.
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That is indeed very nice, cheers. It seems to be 6 years in front of the game's date. Does anyone with the rulebook know what kind of cars there are in there? With the steampunk element the Omnibus may just do the trick.
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@Mike There are eight Factions in the initial rulebook and the first batch of characters in an online supplement is out early next week. ....
Thanks for the detailed reply!
Is the campaign system simillar to Mordheim or Necromunda where characters start very low and get much better during the campaigns or do you gain just minor improvements. Is it just an addition to the regular rules or do you have to use it to get good games? Mordheim games without the campaign system are a rather boring experience.
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Tom, you're not thinking of defecting are you? ;)
Actually, I'll be buying the rules and taking them for a spin as well.
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No, but I'm always interested in new rules. And 2 good sets of rules are better than 1 :).
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Hi Mike again,
Yes similar you start out small and grow and buy more stuff and so on but....
Since being involved in the game prep there were few people to campaign with so just played for more points with more equipment, rolls for skills and so on so in that sense yes it is an add-on albeit (imo) a pretty darn good one as there are lots of wounds, repairs and pawnbroker bits too.
Not sure what you're defecting from but I also had lots of fun using scenarios from other games of a similar genre pre-release and also used the scenarios like prisoner from the book in other games too
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New scenarios are always inspiring, especially if they are well made. I was mainly curious if this new game is campaign driven or if it is made with one of games in mind. Any is fine to me.
I've previously played the original Westwind rules, Ripper Wars by Great White Games and Chaos in Carpathia and sticked to the last. The last two include campaign systems but they are just add ons and don't have much influence on the games.
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Can'r comment on Chaos but these are certainly an improvement on Vampire Wars!!!
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I apologize a head of time if this has come up before, but does anyone know if are there any U.S. distributors for the rule book?
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I would guess that if anyone was going to carry it in the US it would be Old Glory. But it may be some time before it shows up on their website. Ordering direct from West Wind my copy took about a week to get here.
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I would guess that if anyone was going to carry it in the US it would be Old Glory. But it may be some time before it shows up on their website. Ordering direct from West Wind my copy took about a week to get here.
Thanks for the info Skrapwelder.
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Any first impressions? I'm waiting with bated breath for these...
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I've read through the rules and played a few games using the preview rules they had available for download. The basic rules are quick and easy to learn. They remind me of Legends of the Old West, but with all the rule elements I didn't care for fixed. Using a D10 instead of a D6 broadens the results favorably. Skill level effects outcome fairly well.
There is a set of game changing effects outside of the normal run of fighting called Unusual Occurrences. They function like plot devices in a movie: Fog rolling in, imminent sunrise or sunset, mob of angry villagers. At best you can only use it once per game and they can change the tide of battle.
The four factions look well organized, each with strengths and weaknesses. The Werewolves seem to pose the greatest degree of difficulty to be successful with as they are weighed heavily in the melee.
I'll be playing several games in the upcoming weeks and I'll be sure to post after action reports as I can.
Mike
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I've read through the rules and played a few games using the preview rules they had available for download. The basic rules are quick and easy to learn. They remind me of Legends of the Old West, but with all the rule elements I didn't care for fixed. Using a D10 instead of a D6 broadens the results favorably. Skill level effects outcome fairly well.
There is a set of game changing effects outside of the normal run of fighting called Unusual Occurrences. They function like plot devices in a movie: Fog rolling in, imminent sunrise or sunset, mob of angry villagers. At best you can only use it once per game and they can change the tide of battle.
The four factions look well organized, each with strengths and weaknesses. The Werewolves seem to pose the greatest degree of difficulty to be successful with as they are weighed heavily in the melee.
I'll be playing several games in the upcoming weeks and I'll be sure to post after action reports as I can.
Mike
Looking forward to that!
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The Werewolves seem to pose the greatest degree of difficulty to be successful with as they are weighed heavily in the melee.
We're working on some house rules that allow werewolves to change into human form and vice versa, whether by choice or in certain circumstances forced.
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Hi Thunderchicken,
You could just use the BatForm skill perhaps????
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Thanks Skrapwelder - appreciated :)
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i purchased the rules on sat at shefield and some figures from a few different sources had a quick look through the rules and seem ok cant wait to get some figures painted and get a game going
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Alright, I'm seriously late to this party. In the last six months of severe work overload (of pays-the-bills kind), I've had very little time and even less energy for fun and games. The only gaming related activity I've had was another pile of paperwork, so I've missed a bunch of news and releases, including this one.
Briefly put, is it any good? I had a quick glance at the free demo scenario and it looked alright, albeit very tightly cropped. I liked the D10s (as I happen to own over 30 of those already), the theme (always thrilling) and the model types (generic enough, and surprisingly well represented by my existing painted collection). However, the book is not exactly cheap. Also, we already have about two dozen different skirmish projects started here, none of them really getting anywhere. The latest attempt was Carnevale, which has been stalled for six months like all of my projects.
What I'd currently prefer is scenario-driven adventures employing a compact set of core rules (and only those), instead of optimising your own super mega warband and memorising a million special rules to stand a chance. I just don't have time for that any more.
In fact, I'd be happy enough if the book just had lots of pretty pictures and some interesting background which isn't just tedious repetition of grim and darkness and skulls and spikes...
So, is it good and how does it compare to...anything out there?
If only possible, please don't speak the b-word.
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Got my rulebook today, a detailed review will follow by the end of the week - hope to play my first game this weekend as well. The book looks amazing though!
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Great, Anatoli. Really looking forward to this!
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I too picked up a copy of the rules after watching a demo game, all to briefly, at Salute... and i must say, after a few weeks reading and digesting, they are rather good indeed....
If you are a fan of or have ever played, LotR, LotHS, LotOW, Mordhiem you will not be disappointed... and with the very recent demise of Warhammer Historical, this rule book could almost be seen as Legends of the Empire....
Same basic mechanics as all of the above, and you only need say 6 - 10 minis per side to get a decent game...
But one of the things i love about this new set, is that you can have the 'general public' in your game. They can be innocent bystanders or more actively involved depending on what you want to do, but the mechanics of having the 'public' literally walking through the middle of your game is a refreshing change...
Add in London Bobbies, Mobs and even Zombie Mobs all of whom can also feature in games, to my mind, raises the rules above the more mundane...
And as a previous poster noted, the book looks gorgeous....
It also covers most aspects of SteamPunk, so as well as the straight gothic horror, it could also serve as a base set of rules for more VSF biased skirmish size games... maybe another use of all of your Malifaux figures....
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Just got the book in the mail! :D
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yea got some varrious figures from partizan on sunday and some stuff online.
going for a darkfire gentlemans club
so purchased the empire of the dead victorian zombies box set
my leader is a model from the Malifaux range by wyrd games nicodem the undertaker he is the president of the club
the vice president is a model from ironclad prof james morriatiy
the secetary is from black pyramid gaming steam and steel range general charles gordon
the normal members are from ironclad evil henchmen
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Sounds like your off to a great start, cant wait to see them painted up.
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I've contacted Westwind Productions and haven't received a response. I was considering moving the group into Empire of The Dead since Wyrd Muniatures has gone plastic snd none of us are willing to play eith plastic minis, but...
Since I haven't received a response I thought I'd ask over here. What's their support of this product line like? It doesn't seem like they've come out with any new models for it.
That in and of itself wouldn't be a deal breaker if there are rules for creating your own units in the rules. Does anyone know if you can create your own stats from the rulebook? If so then I can get figs and create stats for the units.
RF
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Theres has been some concept art put up on there facebook page. various interviews point to various factions being worked on. Also another thread here has some new miniatures in but nothings been confirmed for when they are to be released.
The Peelers, LeStrade and armed Monks.
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=41384.75
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@ RepublicsFury:
Um, well, you can always proxy your own (metal) models for playing Malifaux with if you really hate plastic that much...? Nothing says that you have to use Malifaux models to play Malifaux with unless you're entering an official tournament or such.
As for EOTD, the game play is a bit like a Necromunda/Mordheim hybrid if you are familiar with those at all? You have four basic gangs: Gentlemen Clubs, The Brotherhood, Lycanthropes and Noferatu. The Gents can be themed into a subfaction of your choice if you want -each with its own advantages and disadvantages- and these are roughly: Darkfire Club (dark magic users), Sons of the Empire (stiff-upper-lip chaps who don't go in for silly things like magic and superstition, but who are well-liked by the authorities), Wolfenjaeger (Werewolf hunters with dogs... bit like Mordheim Witch Hunters) and the Zendarian Officers' Society (duellists and swordsmen without compare).
You can use any official models, or you can use anything else that's suitable - no need to stick with any one range of figs. "Counts As" will allow you to add in anything else you might want too - just check out Laughingferret's efforts here (http://laughingferret.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Empire%20of%20the%20Dead) for an example of what you can do with some imagination! Hell, you can even change the time period or location to suit your tastes/model collection (eg: medieval, western, pulp adventures in Cairo, etc).
Finally, there is more planned (and some more factions), but Andy Cooper is only one man - give him a chance! ;)
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Hell, you can even change the time period or location to suit your tastes/model collection (eg: medieval, western, pulp adventures in Cairo, etc).
Don't forget swashbuckling times, specially the 18th C. (as was brilliantly done for Strange Aeons http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century)): think Carnevale meets Brotherhood of the Wolf + Witchfinder general + Pride & Prejudice and Zombies + the Witcher http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44911.msg524220#msg524220 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44911.msg524220#msg524220) . http://laughingferret.blogspot.fr/2012/08/death-walks-streets-of-london-1888_18.html#comments (http://laughingferret.blogspot.fr/2012/08/death-walks-streets-of-london-1888_18.html#comments) . http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg522179#msg522179 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg522179#msg522179) . http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792)
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Don't forget swashbuckling times, specially the 18th C. (as was brilliantly done for Strange Aeons here (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/search/label/Strange%20Aeons%2018th%20century)): think Carnevale meets Brotherhood of the Wolf + Witchfinder general + Pride & Prejudice and Zombies + the Witcher
- Link 1 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44911.msg524220#msg524220)
- Link 2 (http://laughingferret.blogspot.fr/2012/08/death-walks-streets-of-london-1888_18.html#comments)
- Link 3 (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44255.msg522179#msg522179)
- Link 4 (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792)
Sorry Abdul666lw... Your posts with the huge amounts of crazy links are just way too hard for me to read! I hope you don't mind, but I tidied your post above up a bit. :)
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Thanks, Major :)
All the more justified and welcome improvement as the 'titles' of the links were totally uninformative.
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Journey%20Into%20Madness%20a%20Lovecraftian%20adventure/SAM_5777.jpg)
(Anatoli's (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.fr/2011/09/skinsaw-man.html) -link edited ;) : got the trick, thanks :)
To thank you:
(http://olivier.bredy.free.fr/www/images/lahmiane_sculpture/lahmiane16.jpg)
NOT Anna Valerius (http://olivier.bredy.free.fr/www/page.php?page=sculpture_lahmiane)
::)
And as a bonus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JdPvyy93I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JdPvyy93I)
Love the visual allusion to the Little Red Riding Hood; here's another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqYbZ82x2_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqYbZ82x2_8) ;D
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Oh I get it as far as doing your own thing but I'm the official host at the game store and can't or rather shouldnt deviate from mfg product. Heck I could sculpt and cast my own stuff if I did (I own all the same casting stuff Reaper does). So I stick to the mfg product to help the store and mfg. since I dont Malifaux anymore because they were stupid and went plastic its as good as dead at the store and since I was the only one running it in this area its dead in this area.
I didn't know it was just one guy! I'm all about the little guy. I wish he'd email me :P That's like zombie smith and quars war, never emailed me, didnt get into the game. Ok I'll move us into the game, and hope he keeps supporting it. :D
RF
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I didn't want it to be taken that I controll the store's buying habbits, I meant as far as I'm concerned.
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@ RepublicsFury:
Well, I guess my point is that if you like the products, then great (even if you just buy the rulebook!).
But if you simply don't like the models and need a stream of new releases every month, then I'm saying that's not a reason to drop/avoid a game; even if the model range is limited or you don't like it, others will - and if they see you playing the game, they'll get into it and maybe buy the figs themselves. If the game grows, its success will pay West Wind back. If the game doesn't get played in your area (say, because you rigidly stick to the 8 figures in the starter pack for example, and then drop the game because you want a model that's not in the starter pack and WW doesn't sell it), then awareness and growth of the game will cease, and a decent game will shrivel and die... A loss for everyone that way.
<Shrugs> Support for a game can take many forms, and I say that if you like it, you should play it - don't let models or anything "official" get in the way of that.
@ abdul666lw:
You're welcome; your links are much better now, and we even have some cool figure pix to ogle look at - nice! ;)
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And as a bonus:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JdPvyy93I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JdPvyy93I)
Love the visual allusion to the Little Red Riding Hood; here's another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqYbZ82x2_8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqYbZ82x2_8) ;D
Thank you for the links.
We are currently listening to the audio book version of Sense and Sensibility with Sea Monsters (unabridged 8 disc set, got it from Poundland).
Quite a few good bits for gaming.
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Support for a game can take many forms, and I say that if you like it, you should play it - don't let models or anything "official" get in the way of that.
Absultadamantly >:( ! When Carnevale (http://vesper-on.com/index.php?lang=en) was launched with only a handful of (great) figurines there was a rich thread on TMP about possible proxy figures (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614) to allow playing it immediately (did someone mentioned the Freebooter Assassins (http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/en/catalog/miniatures/assassins) or were they too an obvious suggestion?)
(http://www.freebooterminiatures.de/sites/default/files/pub/shop/ASS001_jh_01_4317.jpg)
I regret Vesper-on Games did not discuss and actually encourage on their forum possible proxy minis to booster the 'taking off' of their game. They were probably following the (so successful financially) GW example ("We are a complete hobby, don't give a cent to our competitors!"), but for a small company trying to launch a new and very unconventional game it's a high-risk gambit. So much the more in their case as the 'official' terrain -amphibious Venice in 30mm (http://vesper-on.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=40%3Aconstruyenco-escenografia&lang=en) - is by itself quite deterring (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=42887.0)
(http://vesper-on.com/images/thumbnails/images/stories/04-523x463.jpg)
Though I'm sure with a little creativity / independence of mind it could be played in Innsmouth or along the banks of the Miskatonic river by the time of Joseph Curwen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Curwen#Joseph_Curwen).
(http://www.titania-medien.de/cms/images/stories/hoerspiele/gruselkabinett/500/gruselkabinett_24.jpg)
Coming from (quasi) historical gaming, where there is neither 'official' rules nor 'official' range of figurines to replay Kadesh or Agincourt, I feel that a GW fanboy will know the Illumination :o when (despite the efforts of the firm to enslave him through the 'official circuit (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44850.msg522450#msg522450)' ) he matures and realizes o_o he can play in the (rich and intriguing) 40K universe with Stargrunt2 rules and a mixture of 15mm minis. The same of course with all games with 'official' miniatures, be it Malifaux (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44850.msg522244#msg522244), Mansions of Madness (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=136&esem=2), A Touch of Evil (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game) and of course Empire of the Dead. Such games often offer good (setting, scenario, rules..) ideas and figurines, but *nothing* restricts you to either. Every one of us can build his (infrequently 'her', alas :'( ) ideal combination.
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I didn't know it was just one guy! I'm all about the little guy.
Ok I'll move us into the game, and hope he keeps supporting it. :D
RF
If you start on the game and want an American theme, the obvious call would be Gentlemen's clubs and go for Gangs of New York - True Blues, Plug Uglies, Dead Rabbits, Bowery Boys etc
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I received a reply from Westwind. They are continuing to support the product line and are in the process of releasing several new products for the game. We'll definantly start stocking the game!
RF
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The Virtual Armchair General has a wonderful and often overlooked Gangs of New York line called B'hoys. Models are good for England, as well.
http://www.thevirtualarmchairgeneral.com/200-bhoys.html
http://www.thevirtualarmchairgeneral.com/210-bhoysfigs.html
http://www.thevirtualarmchairgeneral.com/211-bhoysfigs2.html
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@abdul666lw
Yes it is true you are not limited to mfg only products, and I for one, have no problem with using other mfg minis to play a game I would point out that without the formula to create new units it becomes difficult to create them accurately. This isnt a problem in your normal group as everyone you game with should have the opportunity to approve your designs, but, when running games at a store and your games are open to all comers this becomes problematic as it misrepresents the product, or could misrepresent the products.
Also, by using non official figures it fails to support the company which produced the game you are attempting to support.
Now, if you simply want the rules and want to devise your own formula then it shouldnt be an issue.
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Well, if you run it at some point let me know, Karl. I'll be doing a proxy with Westwind Vampire Wars figs but I've got like almost a hundred of them painted up and collecting dust. Just saying... I think the same sculptor that did Vampire Wars is doing Empire of the Dead as well so the figs should match up perfect.
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If you start on the game and want an American theme, the obvious call would be Gentlemen's clubs and go for Gangs of New York - True Blues, Plug Uglies, Dead Rabbits, Bowery Boys etc
This is a great idea! I couldn't get my head out of an Old West kinda thing, but this would do very nicely...
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@twogunbob
I will let you know. I have this OLD gritty looking rulebook that is based around dark future I think, but don't quote me, that it was a Westwind game before they were Westwind. The models look A LOT like what they are producing these days. I'll have to dig that up someday. It would be great to face the hoards of Vampires! When the heck were you into that game?
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Gothic Horror Vampire Wars goes way back. I used to play with a school teacher back around 2001-2002 or so.
Early paint jobs... This was like the first year I was painting.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/TwoGunBob/herrdoktor1.jpg)
Wow, really need to redo the bases
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/TwoGunBob/herrdoktor2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/TwoGunBob/vamphunter1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/TwoGunBob/herrdoktor1a.jpg)
All from the Frankenstein game many ages ago...
In progress shot I was kicking around a couple years ago when I was finishing up.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/TwoGunBob/gothor01.jpg)
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This is a great idea! I couldn't get my head out of an Old West kinda thing, but this would do very nicely...
Or Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter?
Haven't seen the film but it must have some potential?
Or Sleepy Hollow + 90 years?
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They are all Westwind figures or Associated with Westwind, Vampire war etc
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Also, by using non official figures it fails to support the company which produced the game you are attempting to support.
Not that simple.
Even forgetting the irritating 'We offer an entire hobby, don't give a cent to our competitors' marketing trick to 'enslave' consumers, to *encourage* the use of proxy minis (and the use of the rules in other settings / time periods) can only booster the 'taking off' of a new game (think Carnevale (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614), for instance). Actually if gamers are not brainwashed with the 'use only official minis' doctrine, they will be more prone to buy figurines from a manufacturer to play with the rules of another, Westwind minis for Malifaux and Mansions of Madness for instance, and all companies producing good rules or good (and 'mainstream' size) and not outrageously expensive minis would benefit.
Besides, I'm not convinced by the 'wysiwyg' argument: even an 'official' figurine *never* perfectly reflects what the character is currently doing, his state (despite the 'clix' bases), what he is carrying... That's why to use minis is one of the two experiences (the other being to use 'Rolemaster' rules ;) ) most role players never repeat...
Then, remember that in our games figurines fulfill two functions:
- to show where the persona is (for this only the base matters) and to act as a quick reminder of its main characteristics: a cardboard chip bearing a few symbols would be perfectly equivalent;
- to provide eye-candy.
Thus the possibilities for a miniature to 'count as' are limited only by personal taste and mutual agreement.
More decades ago than I care to compute I fought many Ancient battles with my Minifigs 'javelin & shield' Aureola Rococo Amazons 'counting as' Egyptian or Assyrian spearmen, Greek hoplites, Carthaginian veterans, Roman legionaries (from the Republic to the Late Empires), Byzantine scutatoi... Given they were mostly topless my (male, young and testosterone-filled) opponents willingly accepted the 'count as' conventions :D
Don't forget the potential *reciprocity* between different figurines manufacturers.
All of them (if selling 'good' minis) would benefit from a wider market if players buys were not 'clouded' with the 'official mini' paradigm.
I'm not sure it's wise for small and middle-sized companies to ape the marketing practice so successful for the *gigantic* GW.
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I disagree. And so at the tables I host they'll be official or not on the tables.
I will think on this though, and once I get the rules I'll see what the company says.
Thanks for the thoughts.
RF
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Westwind have absolutely no probs with people using other manufacturers miniatures for their games.
I have played in their official tournaments for Secrets of the Third Reich and used official minis, Dust minis and even Artizan WW2 minis as well as Warlord vehicles.
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Without trying to be combative, here, it seems to me you are hung up on this "official" thing a bit too much. It's a mentality perpetuated by certain game companies that is meant to railroad players and shop owners into buying their products, not the competitions'. To these guys it is a matter of maximizing profit by convincing you that playing with your toys how you want is unacceptable and even morally wrong -- there'd be no "[Company] Hobby" with the Company. It's marketing bunk.
Carry the West Wind lines, carry the Blue Moon line, carry the Foundry line. They compliment each other, they work together, you will be benefitting multiple companies and they will all come out winners. Your players will be happy, your bank account will be happy.
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@n815e
I see the validity in allowing any mini on the table. I really do. It affords the player the option to use what he thinks it a great sculpt. See... in the old days you designed your units using the rule book. BattleTech, Alternative Armies are good examples of companies where you can still do that. Thr gamers of today seem to want stat cards and are reticent to play games which require time and effort to design units. Empire (I belive, but don't hold me to it as I don't hsve the rules yet), Wyrd Games' Malifaux, Hordes & War Machine are good examples of games where you can not design your own units because there is no formula to design them with.
Because I know Malifaux the best we'll use that as an example.
So in Malifaux I want to use Reapers' Zombie Dancing Girls instead of the Rotten Belles. To do that I have to either buy the Rotten Belle and the Reaper Dancer or just the dancer and then irder the stat card from Wyrd. The later being more codt effective.
To be able to go outside of their models a company has to be willing to provide the player with the mechanism to design the units. Unless you only game with the same group of guys and they are fine with your designs even though you had no official design tools. And so you end up with units that may/or may not be broken. But there is no way to check. If a company provides the formula to design units it is by default their desire for you to use any figure you want to use. Malifaux, Hordes, War Machine are examples where you can not design uour own units. Westwind may be an exception, however, I find that stat card games do not offer you the ability to design your own units.
Now if it's simply a question of proxy and you want to use the provided stat card then you've a) already bought the figure, b) or have purchsed the stat card and so the figure doesnt really mean anything as you are simply proxying it for the unit on the stat card. So it means the figure is acceptable simply because the card is correct.
Now, if Westwid provides the formula great, use what ever you want as long as it was designed correctly. If you proxy in Malifaux but are using the company produced Stat Card, great!
What I need to be able to offer is open play where someone comes in, and I've never met them, and he can setup and play "right out of the box" (as it were). I can't offer a situation where I have to tell that newcommer "well... Here's how we do it, and this figure is ok because we agreed that it was ok." do you see the difference? It is NOT about the figure (which everyone seems to be hung up on) it IS about offering an environment where someone can come in, setup, and play. Maybe they come back, maybe they din't. But they were able to play because we didn't have a lot of rules exceptions and we were't house ruling and didnt make up units because we thought they would be cool or neat.
IF Westwind has the formula THEN I don't care what fig someone uses.
See what I mean?
RF
P.S. I try not to take offense, it's why we have a forums. But I don't want to be offensive either. Which is why I just ended the conversation. But I am glad we talked. Thanks for chatting.
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If you where going to Demo this game in a store. Then you would just use balanced forces that where pre determined before hand. Because you have so much choice in this game theres no way you could you just turn up with a box of minis and play you'd need to work out wargear etc before hand. You could have loads of lightly armed members or a few well tooled up ones its all swings and round abouts
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Does anyone have the rules book, and can tell me if the formula for creating units is part of the rules?
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It is not.
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@ RepublicsFury:
It is not, but do remember that units have gain bonuses to stats and skills, etc as they advance over several games.
Also, usually players fill in a roster (or similar) with details of their gang so that they can keep track of it from game to game.
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I called all the "Big Boys" (game stores) in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas and none of them are stocking it. Which is either because it's new, the distribution channel is not conducive to game stores, or it's not popular yet.
We discussed starting up the game, I think we're going to order the rules. @Major_Gilbear I didn't know any of that as I don't own the game.
The one thing this thread has made me realize is that if the manufacturer produces the game and includes the formula for creating units they support using what ever you'd like. They believe that they make great stat cards (applicable to stat card games only) and if you buy our great looking minis you'll get those which makes the game easy to play. But are fine with you using what ever.
And companies that don't make the formula available fall under the "Only Buy From Us" category. I think there has been a lot of validity to what's been said for using what ever the heck you want.
I do still think that if you're hosting a game at a store, and are the quasi official spokesman for the game being run that it's best if you use the official minis. But I do think that companies that offer the rules for unit creation are more gamer friendly. And that companies like Privateer Press, Wyrd Games, GW are too wrapped up in making money they may have lost sight of what's important. And that is: Good friends, great games.
RF
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It's unlikely that the composition of 'factions' is random and unbalanced -players would soon discover it and drop the game. Hence, even if no justification for them is given, if no individual 'point value' is provided, an analysis of the various ready-made 'gangs' would allow to compute fairly good approximations. A few friendly / solo games would refine the approximations. An interesting intellectual challenge by itself, anyway.
For such assessments it would probably be wise to use the original publications: companies selling minis with their (unjustified) stats in order to 'imprison' their consumers tend to work like CCG ones, issuing permanently new 'sets'. And the temptation is strong to 'improve' the characteristics of the latest products (or, at an upper scale, to print new editions of 'army books' or 'codices'), so that consumers / players *have* to buy them if they want to keep winning now and then.
Then, there is always the 'counts as' possibility: I understand that Laughing Ferret's excellent and very original Boneswords (http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=44911.0) 'count as' Zendarians?
I do still think that if you're hosting a game at a store, and are the quasi official spokesman for the game being run that it's best if you use the official minis.
The apparently 'safe' approach (it worked, and works, so well for GW), but probably not always the wisest one. When a new, small, company tries to launch a new, original game, with at first very few minis in production (I'm thinking of Carnevale (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=247614), for instance), allowing, even encouraging the use of proxies could only booster the 'taking of' of the game. Remember, by Rogue Trader times, Citadel urged the players to build their own deodorant hovertank!
Modern players being mostly of the 'passive' kind, seemingly, an 'official' range of minis for an already well known set of rules will sell well. And 'Strange Aeons' ("open") appears to be far more popular than 'Mansions of madness' ("closed" system). The '18th C. gothic horror' boardgame (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/35815/a-touch-of-evil-the-supernatural-game)' with minis 'A touch of evil (http://www.flyingfrog.net/atouchofevil/)' ("closed" system) is barely struggling along for years, and is far less known than 'Witchfinder' / 'Witch hunter' / 'Pike & shot & zombies' (or 'Chaos in Carpathia', perfectly playable in the 18th C. -as, I'm sure, is 'Empire of the Dead (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=276792)', btw) sets of rules (http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=278634) ("open systems", which could be partly turned to "closed" by an official range of minis *once* known and popular enough).
Below a 'critical mass' of secured consumers, the 'exclusive' GW strategy can be counter-productive. I suspect that the best way to support a small company producing a new game is to first 'hook' a number of players to the rules and setting, completing the initially limited range with proxy minis.
Now, it's true that the situation of WestWwind, already well known and with an established commercial basis for their minis, is not the same as, say, Vesper-on Games; yet to see them taking the "Only Buy From Us" road which suppresses the creativity, imagination, capacity of initiative and independent thinking of young players, while understandable, is... unpleasant.
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So your thought is that it creates a greater interest for the person walking up that has never played to be able to use what ever he has, and that he uses our designed formula during when he returns the next time to have units he's created. And during the first go use our stuff.
Hummm...
I'll tell ya what, I'll do it. As an experiment we'll do it. We'll get the rules, one set of minis abd develope a formula. I'll give it say three months and come back with a report on if it killed the interest in the game completely or if it drove the game forward. I'll post the formula up at the store so people can potentially use it during the week.
When I report I'll start a new thread.
This will be interesting.
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@ RepublicsFury:
Hmm, well, I'm not sure I'm quite following you with your last post. ???
In EotD, players choose a force according to that force's recruitment rules, and those force members all come with a fixed statline. You can equip them as you see fit from the permitted equipment list. All this is taken from a "budget" of points ("Shillings" in the game) that all players start with.
Depending on the outcome of each game, players can earn more Shillings. In addition, some of the forces' participants may have been wounded (or worse) and will need to determine what the outcome of those injuries is.
Shillings earned by each player can be spent to replace losses suffered by their force or to add more members, having members gain new skills or stat increases, buying new equipment, visiting the Doc to try and heal any outstanding injuries, and so on.
Each game that force plays in carries over all the previous games' worth of experience and outcomes with it. In this way it is a bit like each player roleplaying a whole gang rather than a single character (as would be the case in a traditional RPG).
If players were allowed to make up anything they liked at all according to a "game formula", the game would very quickly break and stop being any fun for anyone. So, the fixed starting statlines and recruitment constraints are important.
However, just because something like the Nosferatu gang is based around a Vampire and its immediate entourage for example, does not mean that all payers must play that gang as a Vampire gang. A player might want to play a Mummy-themed force, and as there isn't such a list in the game (currently, at least), decides to use the rules of the Nosferatu gang as a template instead. So his Mummy counts as the Vampire Graf, the Mummy's bride as the Consort, his palace guard as the Thralls. No rules are different; just the models are effectively swapped out.
This means that players can field pretty much whatever they want, it still fits the rules, and the game gets played (which promotes said game in your area).
Some players will buy the official models and play a gang "out of the box" as it were. Other players might want to do the same, but use models from their existing collection (for example, Malifaux Guild Guard make good Zendarian Officer Club gangers), but it is still very obvious what's what. Still other players might want to run a gang, but with totally different models (perhaps from the manufacturer, perhaps not) and use one of the existing gangs as a template - like my Mummy example above.
In all cases however, the players are using the official rules, following the actual gang types, and promoting the game. So in the end, the only issue is whose models get used, and I think you'll be surprised to find that players will enjoy being allowed to use whatever they please, and that many will choose to use at least some West Wind figures.
I strongly recommend reading Anatoli's blog about EotD here (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Empire%20of%20the%20Dead), and also Laughing Ferret's blog here (http://laughingferret.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/Empire%20of%20the%20Dead); this will hopefully give you a good idea about what the game is like and how it works. In both cases, some official West Wind figures are used, and in both cases a lot of imagination and other manufacturer's models are used as well.
What's interesting to me, and might be to you as well (I take it you run a store then?), is that although players might use Malifaux figures for EotD for example, they can similarly use West Wind figures for Malifaux too. So in a sense, you can support both West Wind and Wyrd without having to feel tied to either manufacturer's products exclusively when playing each of their games. This obviously applies to more than just West Wind / Wyrd models, but I'm just trying to illustrate my point quickly with pertinent examples here!
For many smaller games companies, allowing and encouraging this freedom of what models to use is what helps promote them and keep them alive. Bigger games companies (especially GW) want players to stick only to what's "officially" allowed because they want to protect their profit - if their players realised that other companies can make exquisite models in a variety of materials to a high standard and at a lower cost too, they would struggle to sell anything at all with their existing business model. In essence, by locking players in, they keep them blinkered and keep them spending much more than they need to.
So if you want to promote the smaller guys in the industry, sell a wide variety of models, and have a variety of games within your player group, I would encourage you to allow them to use the models they want to, to think for themselves and search out cool figures they want you to stock, and to play for fun and love of the hobby (and not because there is a tournament or league for a specific game or whatever).
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:o I really need to buy the rules! This may/may not work.
Thanks
RF
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You can pick the more esoteric gear and have perhaps pitched battles. But I don't really see that is the way its intended to be IMO.
Don't forget there all the Gothic Horror and Vampire war figures to choose from to use for Zendarians, Wulfen Jaegars etc
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@major
You are correct, I'm part of a game store. And it's a shame Wyrd did their plasticrap so that ended it for us. Which is the whole reason I'm making the switch. I figure 4 or 5 rule books to start and the same of all the box sets should be enough to kick start Empire. Let them use whatever they want and go!
I suppose plasticrap would be ok.
We'll make it work!
RF
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And it's a shame Wyrd did their plasticrap so that ended it for us. Which is the whole reason I'm making the switch.
I really don't get this at all. Care to elaborate?
The Wyrd plastic figures that I have seen have been pretty well detailed and hardly "crap" at all. I don't like the extra stylization they have, but that is a design issue not a materials one.
Empire of the Dead seems like an awesome game, so hopefully you can get it to catch on in your gaming group.
~Eric
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Check the Wyrd down the drain thread for that discussion.
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Check the Wyrd down the drain thread for that discussion.
Love to. On this forum? If not, do you have a link you could pass along, please and thank you?
~Eric
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Ye, these forums. Actually called Malifaux down the drain.
RF
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We are currently listening to the audio book version of Sense and Sensibility with Sea Monsters (unabridged 8 disc set, got it from Poundland).
Quite a few good bits for gaming.
Having finished the full set I'd say it has potential for more factions with an aquatic theme. Mermen or seawitches as Nosferati, deep ones or large amphibians as Lycaon (although they are not so affected by full moon but may be affected by high tides, and perform better in thick fog or rain as they can breathe more easily).
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I like your idea of mer-folk and fishmen