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Miniatures Adventure => Back of Beyond => Topic started by: sepoy1857 on 03 September 2011, 01:09:46 AM
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Much of the excellent Russian produced artwork for RCE uniforms show various types of coloured piping/tape trim on tunic fronts (along the buttons) and sleeves, and coloured piping on sleeves of greatcoats (and coloured colar tabs).
My question is how common was this, especially when they had trouble providing uniforms let alone pagoni and cockades of the proper sort? I'm asking specifically about the armies of Kolchack and the North West?
Second question is: shoulderboards/pagoni coloured side up, or khaki side up, or some of each? Reenactors in Russia wear them both ways within the same unit.
So how do we apply this to our Wargame units? I suppose we are faced with the choice of whether we want to show the figures as they were intended to be ideally according to regulations, or do we want to show the troops as they actually appeared in reality. I'm leaning more towards reality.
Any thoughts?
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The senior officers of all the armies had a tendency to obtain the correct piping and trim. It was a bit of a class thing, I suspect. I doubt rankers had the correct sleeve and tunic piping in most cases, given that they often didn't have enough clothing of any sort. It makes life easier all round if such details, which you can't really see on the table, are left off.
Fabric shortages meant proper cloth hats were difficult to obtain, but some units (such as Cossacks) had access to prewar or civilian issue stocks. Improvised methods were used: fabric was painted, in particular. Shoulderboards might be coloured, but not quite in the correct shade (particularly the "raspberry" tended to be just red). Indelible pencil was used to write the correct numbers and ciphers in some cases.
Generally I'm a guy who tends towards reality, but White units need to have some distinctions from Red units or they all turn into a grey mess. Hence coloured shoulderboards for all my Whites. Mostly I went with coloured caps (or at least bands) but on reflection I would do fewer of those. Other detail mostly went by the board, except for command stands.
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Thanks Mark. That's just what I suspected. As you said somewhere in your uniform info (can't remember where exactly) but shoulder boards were usually left off overcoats; so I can get away with using Copplestone's Bolsheviks in overcoats for whites by filing off the star.
I'm painting my figs up for basically 1919, so they do tend to look exactly the same from tabletop distance except for the flags.
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Sometimes the white does not distinguish it from the Reds.
Here's Red Army in Siberia:
(http://i066.radikal.ru/1109/5e/ac09b14b97d1.jpg)
But Kolchak army:
(http://s001.radikal.ru/i194/1109/8c/8bb7ae99ee72.jpg)
When the troops were long and constantly in action, from the little that remained uniform.
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Thank You Michael. Amazing. Most people's figures don't look that rough or that generic. The whites have no cockades, and no shoulder boards at all!
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Thank You Michael. Amazing. Most people's figures don't look that rough or that generic. The whites have no cockades, and no shoulder boards at all!
Typically during the Civil War, the further east you went in Russia, the worse the Whites' uniforms were. Thus you have your Southern Whites with their fancy coloured furazhki and trimmed uniforms, and the Siberians who dressed in rags.
Of course, certain liberties should be taken in painting miniatures. Having the White and Red sides in a game be identical would be rather boring and confusing. That also doesn't mean your Siberian Whites should be going into battle with fresh, bright uniforms.
If you want to be as realistic as possible but still want your troops to look like Whites, then limit the colours just to their shoulderboards and arm chevrons. Below are some good examples:
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/Aureus7/SiberianOfficers.jpg)
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/Aureus7/MiddleSiberianCorps.jpg)
(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g395/Aureus7/Chasseurtroops.jpg)
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If you want to be as realistic as possible but still want your troops to look like Whites, then limit the colours just to their shoulderboards and shoulder chevrons.
Good advice.
Another option is to dress them in British uniforms if you want a unit to look tidier than the rest or to give some variety. I usually rough up the British caps when I do this though, to look more like the Russian style, and put the officers in coloured trousers and knee boots.
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If you look at the problem from another angle, I have a lot of pictures in which the white and red outfit perfectly. It all depends on how long the military part was in the battle. As far as the supply has been established.
It is known that the Reds took over the warehouses in Siberia, a lot of foreign uniforms! The problem was white, primarily in the nefarious organization of logistics, the terrible corruption and of course, a huge number of Red partisans.
Here's another photo - red and white in Siberia:
Reds
(http://s002.radikal.ru/i197/1109/30/2c983a582465.jpg)
White
(http://s010.radikal.ru/i313/1109/66/7ebd7cf800a6.jpg)
I would have done their figures with colorful and bright as the parade.
All the same features of the war has been a surge of interest in color and beautiful uniform. And the tactic actually fighting back in the era of the Napoleonic Wars (a triumph of cavalry on the field speaks volumes.)
By the way, in southern Russia and the white and red, too often, during the fighting, looked like tramps. But the supply is better organized and more soldiers were given uniforms.
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Hi Scott, this is a very good subject you have started.
For my few cents worth an I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I've two books for The White Army of North Russia 1918-1920 and White Armies of Northwest Russia 1918-1920. Written by Alexandr Deryabin for both with artwork by V.Boltyshev. Both books I purchased through ABE books.
Are you building up some units for this conflict?
Cheers,
Helen
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Those Whites are very nicely dressed Cuprum, but the rankers still don't have shoulderboards (which may be on their tunics underneath, of course) or greatcoat collar tabs.
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Take a closer look, Mark.
The fact that the Russian shoulder straps had two side - color and khaki. During the fighting, the soldiers turned the khaki shoulder straps side up. So many photos are poorly marked.
But in reality, no shoulder strap on the white uniforms are not uncommon. If uniforms are often supplied by their allies, the straps need to make on the spot yourself. On it is often a shortage of time and materials.
(http://s007.radikal.ru/i300/1109/1f/6ae2c4d7d74d.jpg)
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They're very little for Russian shoulderboards though. They are soft sewn-on khaki ones with stencilled unit markings?
And greatcoat collar tabs too! (Though oddly the officer seems to not have them.)
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Yes, the soldier's shoulder straps are often mild. They are completely sewn to the coat and so poorly marked. The letters on the side of the hacks are often painted or painted with black paint - and then they are poorly marked.
(http://i066.radikal.ru/1109/5d/76ecc2547e5b.jpg)
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Good information - thanks! I find the research aspect as much fun as painting and gaming (well especially when i role poorly which is most of the time!).
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Here is a reenactment, or recreation as they call it, it Perm, Siberia. It shows the tactics used - quite interesting. Also interesting to see their take on uniforms. Kind of gives you a feel for what skirmishes must have been like. Also some stunning Siberian terrain. Enjoy! there are more videos on the 190th Infantry Regiment Ochakovsky Club site: http://ochakovec.ucoz.ru/index/0-42 (http://ochakovec.ucoz.ru/index/0-42)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQp19AQPF9Q&feature=player_embedded
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This has been a great thread, well-timed for me as I'm putting the finishing touches on about 40 Red infantry right now!
I'll be mixing all the Copplestone Red infantry types together, with a good mix of their Red Partisan/Irregular figures as well, which should at least approximate the ragged lot in those great photos cuprum has posted.
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More Reds and Kolchack's Whites. Most of these are courtesy of cuprum.
Machine gun crew of the 235-th Infantry Regiment 27 th Infantry Division (Siberia?)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/85/85/4/32/61/2229432610104679432UWYXzc_th.jpg)
Machine-gun battalion of international team. Karl Marx in Siberia
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/84/84/0/98/68/2470098680104679432VDRfyI_th.jpg)
The Red Army 1919 (location Unknown)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/85/85/5/23/39/2008523390104679432asvZJa_th.jpg)
Admiral Kolchak bypasses fighters (?)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/82/482/0/13/93/2201013930104679432XpOLmk_th.jpg)
16th Ishim I think
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/84/84/7/85/42/2992785420104679432szNvgP_th.jpg)
Kolchak army, on the Trans-Siberian R.R. (Russians? or Czecks??? Not sure)
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/85/85/4/24/76/2387424760104679432pRcZgq_th.jpg)
Kolchak during the retreat in October 1919
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/82/482/9/70/96/2846970960104679432uwmHUo_th.jpg)
Photo from the book by Lawson T. Hill An American in Siberia
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/84/84/4/56/47/2925456470104679432vHcycm_th.jpg)
Siberian soldiers carrying soup kettle
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/85/85/7/88/9/2648788090104679432JCuLeK_th.jpg)
That's Kolchak on the streets of Omsk - nekotoryev White
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/82/482/1/63/74/2980163740104679432SZcxzN_th.jpg)
The first Kolchak in Ose
(http://thumb12.webshots.net/t/82/482/5/44/37/2620544370104679432lBFpvO_th.jpg)