Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Colonial Adventures => Topic started by: gringo on November 14, 2011, 12:19:41 PM
-
Gents
just to let you know the Lieutenant of the Egyptian battalion is available now
in some numbers along with a new shipment of Majors....the rest of the battalion
will be ready in a couple of weeks
regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www,gringo40s.blogspot.com :)
-
Will be wanting this, any photo's?
-
Yep, A photo would be great Ged :)
Looking forward to seeing him,Mir he's half as good as the other one we are in for a treat :)
-
Doubtless Ged will have a better photo, but in the meantime...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/orctrader/Test/Gringo2.jpg)
-
Oooooh he's great ;D
-
Thanks Orctrader most kind of you.........there will be a picture of him on my site
real soon as i am having a massive update of my site with photos of all the 40mm
Mexican Cavalry and American artillery and crew..............and news regarding more
Maximillian figures........
regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com :)
-
Am looking forward to the whole battalion.
Will be picked them up then.
Like the look of the new figure.
-
May just pick these up for the joy of painting them. :D
-
:-*
-
Gringo posted a painting guide elsewhere:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AWBWdt5ZGxQ/TadM8quvPTI/AAAAAAAABNo/yGZtD61ndrk/s1600/elt4.jpg)
-
Will you be at Warfare? :D
-
i will Joras on Sunday...fancy a meet up.can bring a few figs as im going as a punter...
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
-
I'd like one each of the Maximilian figures just to paint. :D
-
Very nice stuff! What time frame could these uniforms represent? Anybody know?
-
Joroas
i will be taking some figs with me to Reading.......let me know if you would
like a couple.............
Remington , thats a question and a half!! for example the FFL , legion Enstranger
wore their 1860 uniform ,but adapted to Mexico with Straw Someroes et all...the
Mexican imperial Army came and went within the time frame 1861-67......
the Austrians uniforms for the period ....all almost perciluliar to this fascinating
combat , maybe less so with the Republican Mexicans who had just ditched
Santa Annas rainbow army colours............and wore relatively plain uniforms....
just better armed. good question though!!
regards
Ged www.gringo40s.com
G
-
Yes, one of each please. The sudden jolt may be the realisation that I may be getting sucked into a new period...............
-
Joroas
done and dusted , will have a small supply with me for any Lead adventures
my mobile is 07703 522543 ..if you text me when you arrive!!...see you
Sunday!
regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
Thank you for the reply... But I am not sure I phrased my question the right way... What I was wondering is, if I could use these as actual Egyptians in Egypt and for which time frame? :D Unless I misunderstood your reply in my ignorance of Egyptian uniforms and especially the Maximillian Adventure...
-
Remington
im with you now to be honest i have to admit out of the Maximillian Adventure
im not 100 pct sure of their usage.......the thing is they are french influenced
and with french weapons and equipment probably unique to the period.
Having said that the Major is timeless and could be used at least 50 years before
and up to 100 years later as could the Lieutenant having been to Egypt quite
a few times they still use donkeys and carts in the city of Cairo !! :o and hold on
to many old practises. will look deeper into it for you and revert!! best regards Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
-
Cheers, Ged, although 50 and 100 years are not the time frame I'm hoping on. But the ability to use him in Northern Africa in the 1890 would be more than enough to make me happy. On the other hand, your minis are very cool, I might just get them for the heck of it. :)
-
Hello, you can use them as turcs or egyptians late XIX burt not for northern africa (ie algeria or marroco) wich is arab people not turckish!
best regards
paco
-
Thank you for the reply. With north Africa I meant it's east and therefore Egypt. :) Great that they'd suit the entire end of the century. :) thank you once more!
-
Remington -
The Egyptian army uniform did change from that shown in your plate. By the time of the Anglo Egyptian war in 1882 it was still similar for the rank and file - blue or white but with a slightly neater cut and a fully buttoned tunic rather than what appears to be a pull over/half buttoned version. Officers uniforms were similar to the rank and file but a dark blue colour. Google has plenty of images.
This uniform lasted until 1885 when the army began to be issued with Khaki by the British.
Back to the thread :D
- Nice figure - am looking forward to the remainder of the battalion in 28mm and the rest of the range of 28's - what else do you have planned Ged?
The Emir
-
Emir
thanks for the enlightening feedback! and comments re the figure....on my
to do list are the French Foreign Legion, Mexican opposition and up next a suprise
i dont want to spoil!!..........hopefully i will cover the whole Gambit but with the
emphasis on some well crafted and hopefully unique figures.......all suggestions
still welcome.
regards Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com ;)
-
Cheers Emir! :D
Looking forward to much more, gringo! :)
-
The French Foreign Legion actually wore the exact same standard issue uniforms as the rest of the line (save for the grenade embossed on the buttons and the collar insignia), so FFL here means troops that can be used for the whole of the French army. My suggestions would be as follows, the idea being to produce figures that can also be used for Algeria, China and the Crimea. "Fatigue trousers" mean either the white fatigues issued in North Africa and worn unofficially on every overseas campaign, or the narrow red trousers issued in the 1850's before they were replaced with the baggier variety that came with the 1860 uniform.
* Infantry in shell jacket with epaulettes, broad waist sash, fatigue trousers worn with cloth gaiters and either covered or uncovered kepi (can be used for Algeria, hot weather marching order in the Crimea, and China)
* Infantry in greatcoat with epaulettes, fatigue trousers with cloth gaiters and covered or uncovered kepi (same uses as above)
* Infantry in 1860 regulation uniforms with basquine tunics, baggy trousers and covered kepis (Mexican Campaign mostly).
* Infanterie de marine : a pet subject of mine, and figures that absolutely nobody else makes. The Infanterie de Marine were marines, by the way, not sailor landing parties. They fought in just about every campaign during the Second Empire and were therefore present in Mexico. Unlike the rest of the army, they wore a distinctive double-breasted jacket known as a paletot and had bright yellow epaulettes. Narrow trousers would be best for them (they can be painted red for pre-1860 campaign uniforms or white to depict white fatigues on either side of 1860). Kepis either covered or uncovered, depending on the campaign and the climate.
When you get to doing the African troops, it would be nice to have zouave/turco figures with both regular socket bayonets and saber bayonets : turcos were equipped with the former, zouaves with the latter.
-
Arthur
thanks for the Splendid input. i was aware of the melding of FFL and French line
troops, and the greatcoats cover a mutitude extra figures..the Marines have
grabbed my attention though as i seem to remember the Marines in 1870 with the
peculiar 1858 working cap...like a scottish bonnet and wrapped in a leather jerkin/
sheepskin............do you have any pictures of these??
the ability to extend to other conflicts will be borne in mind of course.........
regards
Ged/ www.gringo40s.com
-
Arthur
thanks for the Splendid input. i was aware of the melding of FFL and French line
troops, and the greatcoats cover a mutitude of extra figures..the Marines have
grabbed my attention though as i seem to remember the Marines in 1870 with the
peculiar 1858 working cap...like a scottish bonnet and wrapped in a leather jerkin/
sheepskin............do you have any pictures of these??
the ability to extend to other conflicts will be borne in mind of course.........
regards
Ged/ www.gringo40s.com
-
Ged, I hope you don't mind if I ask but is the Mexican Revolution line coming after the Maximillian Adventure?
-
the Marines have grabbed my attention though as i seem to remember the Marines in 1870 with the peculiar 1858 working cap...like a scottish bonnet and wrapped in a leather jerkin/sheepskin............do you have any pictures of these??
Yup, I do :
(http://www.loire1870.fr/im_unif/imb_costFusilierOpt_2.jpg)
(http://figurines-et-collections.com/upload/250910_154758_PEEL_83J3K9.jpg)
However, these boys aren't Marines (or marsouins, as they were popularly known) : they are sailors seconded from the fleet and formed into field battalions to help defend France during the 1870 Prussian invasion. The goatskin jerkins were not specific to naval troops, by the way.
The Infanterie de Marine were regular infantry battalions meant for overseas deployment, not seamen : they didn't crew ships and fought on land in the colonies (or soon-to-be colonies), which were then placed under the authority of the Ministère de la Marine. The 1858 cap was only issued to sailors : the Infanterie de marine wore the shako when in full dress and the kepi for fatigue and campaign duties (it seems dubious that the shako was ever worn for active campaigning in China or Mexico, although regulations theoretically demanded it). The paletot was effectively a double-breasted frock coat, and here's a reasonable picture of a marsouin in full dress during the mid-1850's :
(http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1637598&t=w)
The uniform would not have changed much by the time of the Maximilian adventure : the kepi would have been worn on campaign instead of the shako, and white gaiters were used, both under and over the trousers. The shell jacket was also used in the field and a sketch by captain Vanson shows a Crimean war Marine marching to Balaklava in 1854 wearing a shell jacket and blue/grey trousers piped red with an uncovered kepi.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Sja1do5Id0g/SXSQ5qzM-4I/AAAAAAAACo0/mUc5qcN27eM/s400/InfanterMarine1848-1890.jpg)
Here's a slightly later depiction of a Marsouin in the 1870's : the frock coat had become slightly shorter by then, and the accoutrements are post 1867, but the overall look had not changed significantly :
(http://lestaureauxdu2.com/images/Marsouin.gif)
The yellow epaulettes were the trademark of the naval infantry and looked very similar to the ones worn by line infantry voltigeurs :
(http://www.bertrand-malvaux.fr/images/1/produits/produit_image1_4110_1302255623.jpg)
Here's what sailors/seamen looked like in the 1850's (the 1858 cap gradually came to replace the hat, although the latter endured well into the 1860's) :
(http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1637602&t=w)
(http://www.frencheuropean.com/Rare%20Prints/Images/hum13-1870.jpg)
Re the FFL/line uniforms, I assume you are familiar with the following plate by Leliepvre :
(http://img31.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-31217/loc501/23208_Image10_122_501lo.jpg)
The full dress uniform is that of the 1860 regulations. The field dress is what most French soldiers wore while campagning in Algeria, China and some parts of Mexico. Epaulettes were commonly worn on the shell jacket, and they make for more colourful uniforms anyway so I would definitely sculpt them on ! (well, if I could sculpt that is...)
-
i will answer Hildred first as im still taking in Arthurs magnus opus of a reply ..wow!
hildred, im working on a few bits for the Mexican Revolution and will have possibly
a few figs out Dec/Jan time............
regards
Ged
pa first few are a suprise ( ish!!) ;)
-
Arthur really helpfull and informative information , made me google them on
same and came up with a book" trois ans en Afrique 1864-97, par un ancien officier
d.infanterie de marine, wonder if its in English as well. So in essence the Marines
are primarily noted for their Paletot ,thinish trousers and kepis.....is this how you
depict them? i guess the remaining gear was French army issue. what sort of
numbers were they present in Mexico. at the momemt im reading the classic hand
of Danjou, great for info on naturally the FFL , but also the company strenght
actions of the Egyptian battalion , and some line units...great stuff and of course
the contra guriellas and their exploits. regards Ged
ps the plate of leliepvre didnt come oy...
-
So in essence the Marines are primarily noted for their Paletot ,thinish trousers and kepis.....is this how you depict them?
Yes, that's what period illustrations show : kepi (either uncovered or with a havelock), double-breasted frock coat reaching at mid-thigh with yellow epaulettes, and regular trousers with canvas gaiters worn over or under them (naval infantry do not seem to have adopted the 1860 regulations baggy trousers and seemingly stuck to their narrow trousers). As I wrote above, shell jackets were also worn in hot climates, but no specific figures are required there : standard French infantry in shell jackets will do with the right paint job on the trousers and the epaulettes.
i guess the remaining gear was French army issue.
Absolutely : standard accoutrements and equipment
what sort of numbers were they present in Mexico ?
One régiment de marche took part in the Vera Cruz expedition, i.e a composite unit made up of companies drawn from the 1st and 2nd naval infantry regiments and seemingly organised into two battalions of 600/700 men each. 800 sailors drawn from the fleet were also involved in the Vera Cruz operations. 1,200 Marines and 500 sailors were present at the battle of Puebla and the subsequent siege of the city : the sailors supported the two zouave battalions while the Marines remained in reserve. 1,000 to 1,200 naval infantry and about 500 sailors appear to have remained the norm for most of the war. Nafziger provides the following orbats for May and December 1862, then December 1863 respectively (the sailors are listed as marins-fusiliers) :
http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/862UEAA.pdf (http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/862UEAA.pdf)
http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/862ULAA.pdf (http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/862ULAA.pdf)
http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/863UKAA.pdf (http://www.cgsc.edu/CARL/nafziger/863UKAA.pdf)
ps the plate of leliepvre didnt come oy...
Try this link, but you're already familiar with it if you have The Long Endure :
http://18edelignesecondempire.xooit.fr/t213-2-planches-de-Leplievre.htm (http://18edelignesecondempire.xooit.fr/t213-2-planches-de-Leplievre.htm)
-
I assume contra guriellas are on the list? So much gaming potential with those.
-
i will answer Hildred first as im still taking in Arthurs magnus opus of a reply ..wow!
hildred, im working on a few bits for the Mexican Revolution and will have possibly
a few figs out Dec/Jan time............
regards
Ged
pa first few are a suprise ( ish!!) ;)
Thanks, Ged! So they're just around the corner, I can't wait to get my grimy mitts on them! lol
-
thanks Arthur more then helpfull, just the sort of information i was after........
i have the excellent "Tradition article on the FFL now and wonder were there
others including the Marines and sundry french units?
Dewbakuk the Contras under Dupin are a must do , your right of course
regards
Ged
www,gringo40s.com
ps i have the whole Set of Military historian books including the "long endure
essential for ma and my svulpter!! :)
-
You're welcome, Ged : just ask here or PM me if you need further info. I'm no genuine expert on the French Second Empire, but I've always had an interest in the Mexican campaign and I've done a bit of homework as a result.
Off the top of my head, dunno if there was a Tradition special on mid C19th Marines and sailors : I'd have to look into it. Later naval infantry are much better covered, especially after 1901 when they lost the 'naval' tag and were renamed colonial infantry, which is what they had been all along anyway (Marines' always was a bit of a misnomer for these troops as they had been earmarked for colonial service from the word go...).
-
Arthur
appreciate the feedback , at the moment im gathering information on the Belgians
African Regiment and the Austrians..........especially photos of the period as im
trying to base as many of the real character sculpts from photos....Dupin is a point
in case ..........whaaat a character....... i have a question the french Knapsacks for
the FFL have what appears to be a blanket strapped to the top as im trying to
ascertain what the back of the knapsacks looked like..i have a poor photo you
can see additional cases attached, but hard to fathom. any info welcomed
best regards ged www.gringo40s.com
;)
-
Dewbakuk the Contras under Dupin are a must do , your right of course
Woo and indeed Hoo :)
-
I have a question the french Knapsacks for the FFL have what appears to be a blanket strapped to the top as im trying to ascertain what the back of the knapsacks looked like..i have a poor photo you can see additional cases attached, but hard to fathom. any info welcomed
Is it the M1854 knapsack you are interested in ?
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EiZYXp4aImw/TP6Z47IrqbI/AAAAAAAAAno/9-O93yN2iBg/s1600/05.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EiZYXp4aImw/TQOEL2mOPvI/AAAAAAAAAp4/oaZXOk_uw0s/s1600/7042_std.jpg)
The 81st regiment line fusilier below wears the full 1860 regulations uniform and has a large cooking pot attached to his pack :
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EiZYXp4aImw/TP6Z4IBbcII/AAAAAAAAAnY/Dxh6CZ9DDrs/s1600/07.jpg)
I've also found this pic of an 1850 model water canteen in case you're interested :
(http://www.militaria-14-18.fr/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/bidon_mle_1850.jpg)
-
Arthur
tremendous stuff most kind of you, just what i need.......looks like the 81st eme
soldat is from a Tradition article? and i wonder if the Goddilot book is still
available. knapsack info is invaluable..i guess not every guy carried a cooking pot
and a large pot was carried between a squad. fascinating to be sure............what
would the ratio of cooking pots / marmites be?
regards
Ged www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
Hi Ged
The Godillot book actually isn't a book at all : it was the official catalogue of the Godillot company, which was one of the French army's main suppliers during the Second Empire and beyond. I suspect that such a catalogue is now a highly sought after collector's item that must command interesting prices on the antique book market. The company was such a major player that its name passed into the French language and 'godillot' became a slang word for heavy and not particularly elegant shoes.
The 81st Line fusilier pic is a scan from Uniformes, a long-defunct French magazine which predated Tradition by a few good years. The article on the French infantry of the Maximilian campaign appeared in issue 40, dated November/December 1977. Its author, Louis Delpérier, went on to write the articles on Second Empire French military subjects in Tradition. The scan is courtesy of Pacofeanor's blog, which you might want to have a look at : http://pacofaitlezouave.blogspot.com/ (http://pacofaitlezouave.blogspot.com/)
Not sure the issue of cooking pots and marmites was truly regulated during the Mexican campaign but without having researched the matter, I'd say one large cooking marmite between eight or ten men probably isn't far off the mark.
-
thanks very much Arthur im suitably enlightened ;)
looked at the blog of Pacofeanor ...really excellent.
love the colour print of the French in Mexico? hard to tell
looks like a Horace vernet print i have never seen.
been looking up the Belgian army as i will need to do them
they seem to have a fair abundance of lace , but very french
in dress and equipment...looks to be the same with the African regiment
now if i could find a book full to the brim with actual items of
uniform that would indeed be brilliant..........................
for all the "unusal " units i would be a happy man. still must press on
your input has been invaluable Arthur
best reagards
Ged. www.gringo40s.com
-
been looking up the Belgian army as i will need to do them. they seem to have a fair abundance of lace , but very french in dress and equipment...
Belgians you say ?
Ask and ye shall receive :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Campaigns1-1-1.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Campaigns2.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Campaigns3.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Campaigns4.jpg)
These are scans from an article by Liliane and Fred Funcken published in a very old issue of campaigns, dated January/February 1981
-
Arthur
your a star!! brilliant stuff..............
just what i needed
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
-
Wonderful thread guys....
Looking forward to it's little lead conclusions!
-
Get a life you two lol
;)
-
Gringo,
You thinking about seperate heads? With the French kepi/sombrero and the Belgian kepi/sombrero/fatigue hat/whateveryoucallit that might be a good idea.
Pete
-
Got those two beauties today. They are a bit special. Yes, gringo, I may well buy units to combat my ACW figures as the war has spilled over in 1866 to a new level. Think Two Mules for Sister Sarah meets Major Dundee...............
-
Get a life you two lol
;)
A what ? Never heard of such a thing before :D
-
While I'm still geeking it up, here's a scan from a book published by the French Musée de l'Armée in Paris. The three bottom photographs show men from the Belgian Legion in various orders of dress. The battalion photographed in Monterey in 1866 is of particular interest ; one year after their arrival in Mexico, all the men have abandoned the impractical hat and replaced it with the French-style covered kepi. There's also a rare pic of a grenadier from the Belgian Legion's mounted companies.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexique.jpg)
-
Arthur
Bugsda........looking forward to seeing your expertise applied to my Major...
you know you can do it old buddy.
Arthur ...once agin you have come up with the goods , actually was sent that pic
and was astounded by the photos. Now bet you cant find anything on the Mexican
imperial Army ,,i have come up with some goodies ..but still searching.
Pete i will do as many variations as possible in my units ...FFL will be in a mixture
of hats , Mairine hats, Kepis........may well do some separate heads.
Joraos good to meet you at Reading......pleased you like the figs...
best Regards Ged www.gringo40s.com :) ;) :) ;)
-
Arthur
any chance you could give me your e-mail , i have probably got more
questions then answers on this war on the uniform front!! :o
my best e-mail is gjmfigurines4@btinternet.com.
best regards
Ged www.gringo40s.com
-
PM duly sent, Ged :)
-
thanks Arthur!! ;)
-
Bugsda........looking forward to seeing your expertise applied to my Major...
I bet you say that to all the girls lol
-
I bet you say that to all the girls lol
lol lol lol
-
Bugsda
lol lol lol lol bon mot of the day!! cheered up a foggy monday morning
-
While we're on the subject of the Belgian Legion, here's the cover of the Campaigns issue I lifted my article from :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Campaigns32.jpg)
Note to Ged and Ian : should you get in the mood to produce some vignettes, the armed sutleress leading the wounded grenadier's horse would make for an interesting set, methinks...
-
This thread represents everything that I love about LAF. Keep this up guys, this is fantastic.
PS The new figures are sat on my painting table ATM.
-
Arthur.......what a superb cover , how inspirational...............
talking of getting in the mood i have just received back from a mate part of
the Hacienda at Camerone....its amazing, straw roof et all...to place my
FFL when they are done.
Joras ,,yep its all good stuff ;)
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.com
-
Post more stuff. We've got to keep Ged in the mood... Sort of feeding the beast to get it going lol
-
speaking about cantinieres:
http://ilikethethingsilike.blogspot.com/2010/01/belgian-expeditionary-corps-cantinieres.html
some images of the cantieres of the belgian expedition force
-
superb link, top site...just joined!!
many thanks Argsilverson .........
regards
ged
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
;)
-
Sort of feeding the beast to get it going lol
And so it shall be :D
Contra Guerilla this time around : the subject is quite adequately covered by Eugene Leliepvre in his Long Endure plate, but here are a few more pictures anyway. The mounted Zouave company is something I would love to see done in miniatures (the company was not technically part of the Contra Guerrilla unit, by the way : the men were seconded from the regular Zouve battalions and mounted on horses or - more commonly - on mules).
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Contra1.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Contra2.jpg)
-
Kingscarbine is SOOOOO right the cage door is open and all information is
being devoured!! lol
Arthur
Charles Dupin was on the list .....what a potrait of him....just love the detail on his Sombero......a face full of character..im looking forward to doing this unit in 28mm
best regards
Ged
ps now if i could get more information on the Mexican Imperial Army ...i have lots
of scraps and Hefters CD on them .....then i could retire back into my cage
digest and re-appear...................!! ;)
-
ps and thanks Arthur of course......i tip my Sombrrro to you!! ;)
-
Moving all of these lovely pictures into my archives for later use. Excellent work people.
-
Re the Imperial army, many units continued to use the pre-1865 issue uniforms right up to the fall of the régime. The question regarding the psychedelic 1865 uniforms is how widely used they actually were : in his Osprey book, René Chartrand states that only a few units actually wore them, such as the 1st (Emperor's) battalion of the 2nd line battalion. Most of the Imperial forces appear to have continued to make do with a mixture of French and Mexican issue uniforms, especially since the new red jackets were particularly hated.
-
The question regarding the psychedelic 1865 uniforms is how widely used they actually were : in his Osprey book, René Chartrand states that only a few units actually wore them, such as the 1st (Emperor's) battalion of the 2nd line battalion. Most of the Imperial forces appear to have continued to make do with a mixture of French and Mexican issue uniforms, especially since the new red jackets were particularly hated.
But how many of us paint up Napoleonic units in full dress, I doubt they were really worn in the field.
-
thanks Arthur ( as usual!) its a good point, with Maximillian hankering after
imperial prestige i know he attempted to re-fit many of these "new" units with
varying success ..........and talking of Napoleonics as Joras quite rightly i have
come across an imperial cavalry unit dressed for all intents and purposes as
polish lancers of the french imperial guard...........with a few adjustments... i may
well do these for the sheer variety as well as the imperial lancers in braided carmine
with grey sombreros as these IMHO are a must do unit.
regards
Ged...www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
This is surely going to be THE Maximillian Adventure range and Ged is THE man for the job :) ;)
-
I paint my Napoleonics in full dress :) 75% of my 40 or so units for the French are full dress.
-
Exactly my point. Armies of men in patched greatcoats, cap covers and furled colours would like so dire................
-
thanks Gents.......although i will strive to be as autheintic as possible i agree
the full dress scenario works for me as the Republican Mexicans arent all that
colourfull,,but wheres theres colourfull units i will find them!! :) ;) 8) :-* .Anyway
even the...........
FFL appear tp have all the cimberbands..epaulettes ..and must have looked
amazing.........the French knew how to dress for war....even up to ww1!
regards Ged www.gringo40s.com
-
Sorry joroas I misunderstood :)
I agree campaign dress,especially for this conflict, would look like peasants with guns.
-
We all love those sparkly full dress uniforms............. :D
-
Here is my small contribution...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SBr1MzR6j6U/TriBILyzJkI/AAAAAAAAMrU/gHaZ_DNr2lg/s1600/FIGURIN+N%25C2%25BA+170009.jpg
-
Kingscarbine
good man , nice print ............just printed it off looks great A4 size......more
inspiration!!
thanks Ged ;)
www.gringo40s.com
-
Ged, you have tapped a rich vein here................
-
Joroas
its great to see all the enthusiam!......
all the info will not go to waste
:)
regards
Ged www.gringo40s.com
-
ps now if i could get more information on the Mexican Imperial Army ...i have lots
of scraps and Hefters CD on them .....then i could retire back into my cage
digest and re-appear...................!! ;)
I suppose you are already familiar with the Knötel plates reproduced in the Chartrand Osprey book :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Imperial1.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Imperial2.jpg)
Along with the Hefter illustrations you mention
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/elt8.jpg)
It seems the majority of the rank and file wore the French style uniforms depicted in Knötel's plates, even after the new Maximilian uniforms were introduced. Some contemporay pics also show Imperial troops wearing Republican-style dark blue coats and trousers, which suggests that pre-war army clothing stocks may have been used from time to time.
-
Anyway even the FFL appear tp have all the cimberbands..epaulettes ..and must have looked amazing..
French troops took to wearing the waist sash over the veste (i.e shell jacket) or greatcoat during the Algerian campaigns. It was actually more than just a decorative feature : used as a body sash, it kept the lumbar vertebrae covered and reduced the risk of back strain, and also protected the abdomen during the cold North African nights. The waist sash was never worn over the M1860 basquine tunic, though.
Both the veste and the capote (greatcoat) could be worn with or without the epaulettes. There is period documentary evidence for both, but of course it makes the figures visually more interesting and more colourful if they have the epaulettes sculpted on.
-
Arthur
thanks for the goodies, you right i have now seen the Knotel plates and to be honest
they are not bad..and agree with Hefter ( im sure he used this source)...the "mountie"
style uniorm is a must do and as mentioned by me the Imperial lancers.
i agree the epaulettes on is always a better option for the visual splendour aspect as
the colour along with the colar facings were the only differnce to tell units apart.
intersting about the sashes worn for health purposes.amd they looked cool!!
just read how Dupin charmed Napoloen 111 into sending him back to Mexico,,,theres
a man who loved a waist sash and a gold encrusted sombero!!
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.blogspot.com ;)
-
just read how Dupin charmed Napoloen 111 into sending him back to Mexico,,,theres a man who loved a waist sash and a gold encrusted sombero!!
The climate does not seem to have done him much good as he died in France barely a year after his return from Mexico.
Right. What shall we tackle next ? The subject is anything but obscure, but if you are interested, I have some pretty nifty pics of Chasseurs d'Afrique on campaign.
-
Arthur
Now ....that is VERY tempting aside from i believe a squadron of the 8th Hussars
these Chassuers d Afrique were the mainstay cavalrywise so i would love to
see these..............
well done that man
regards Ged www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
:) ;) :o :-* o_o
-
No reason why we can't have both... :D
First, it's the 5th Hussars you will be interested in since the regiment sent two squadrons to Mexico. These were part of the 2nd Régiment de marche along with two Chasseurs d'Afrique squadrons. The 8th did not serve during the Mexican campaign.
The men were supposed to take the field wearing their dark blue dolmans and red trousers with fake leather booting, but the much plainer veste (shell jacket) seems to have been a very popular garment. The pelisse was never used in Mexico, even in cold weather, so may be omitted altogether. The shako wasn't used in the field, being replaced with the kepi which was usually worn with a white cover and havelock. Both period photos and illustrations show that the sombrero was extensively worn instead of the kepi. The African army's cloth waist sash also appears to have been quite popular, and the practice of wearing it probably originated during the 5th's stint in Algeria in the late 1850's.
The pics below show a trooper in campaign dress as sketched by Benigni, a photograph of an officer circa 1863, another one of a lieutenant Teurkhauff in 1859 after his return from the Italian campaign and a scan from issue 22 of Tradition showing the Musée de l'Armée mannequin of an officer in regulation campaign dress.
(http://www.leshussardsdelauzun.com/Mexique.1866.jpg)
(http://www.leshussardsdelauzun.com/SLT%201863.jpg)
(http://www.leshussardsdelauzun.com/LntTheurkauff.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Hussards1.jpg)
Now on to the Chasseurs d'Afrique. The full dress braided jacket was never worn in the field, except by officers. The men wore their plain vestes instead, with red cavalry trousers and their distinctive taconet, or shako, which was usually worn with a white cover and havelock in Mexico. Officers wore kepis instead, with or without a havelock.
Featured below is a very rare pic of Chasseurs in the field during the Crimean campaign. This is how they would have looked like in Mexico, with the addition of white shako covers.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/ChasseursdAfrique1.jpg)
Next are period sketches of Chasseurs in Algeria in 1870 : give or take a few details, this is once again what they would have looked like on campaign in Mexico :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/ChasseursdAfrique2.jpg)
And finally some mannequins and a large scale figure which give a pretty good idea of the the men's equipment and accoutrements :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/ChasseursdAfrique3.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/ChasseursdAfrique4.jpg)
-
Thankyou, Arthur, for your time and effort in covering these units. :D
-
Arthur
mind blowing assotment of information.....much obliged to you.....i wll have a string of
questions for you later if i may once i have absorbed all of the informationa and
pictures all of which i have not seen
one question am i right in saying the French army in the crimea was relatively
unchanged still when it arrived in Mexico aside from the changes with Sombreros
and other minor climatic items of wear .......its just a general question will be more
specific later. The cavalry are always my favourite and there seems to be enough
colourfull french units to keep any avid wargamer happy!! inclyding me!! ;)
again thanks for your time and effort.
best regards ged www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
-
Warbases have just released some modular buildings that may be invaluable for this period. ...and they are exceptionally cheap even by Warbases standards.
http://www.warbases.co.uk/#/modular-buildings/4557335897
-
Joroas
good find, they are very reasonable and with some added work..ie Straw on the
roofs would look the part!
regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
;)
-
Great thread :D
enjoying it so much I thought I better contribute. The BNF(French National Library) has some nice stuff on the 'adventure'. These are from a contemporary officers watercolour album.
Link is www.gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426921r.r=+mexique.langEN (http://www.gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426921r.r=+mexique.langEN)
-
inkydave
my day just got a lot better.......thanks for the "contribution" .......superb stuff
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
;) :) ;) :)
-
Splendid facial hair in some those pictures, especially the chap in the white hat, a wonderful waxed moustache and imperial beard. :)
-
Malamute
it was THE period for extreme bent follicles coated with goose fat!!
lol
i believe the style was after Napoleon 111 and the look he cultivated...
im sure Arthur will confirm.......our resident oricle for the period
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
one question am i right in saying the French army in the crimea was relatively unchanged still when it arrived in Mexico aside from the changes with Sombreros
and other minor climatic items of wear
Hmm. Yes and no : the 1860 regulation uniform really did change the appearance of the French line infantryman, and period sketches, notably by general Vanson, show the new basquine tunic and baggy trousers worn on campaign with covered kepis and neck curtains, as shown by the two figures on the right of the Vanson sketch, the two infantrymen in the Brecht painting done in Santa Fe in 1862, and the voltigeur trumpeter mannequin below :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Infanterie1.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Infanterie2.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Infanterie3.jpg)
Incidentally, the broad-brimmed hats weren't necessarily sombreros : they could just as well be straw hats of various origins, and it is known that the French army purchased 7,000 such hats in Martinique on its way to Mexico in 1862. Generally speaking, hats were popular among the troops but they never replaced the kepi, which was always worn for parades and quite frequently on campaign.
The continuity with the Crimean war can be seen in the use of the greatcoat and veste (i.e shell jacket) as alternative campaign wear. The white canvas or linen fatigue trousers were theoretically prohibited after 1860, but continued to be used in Mexico, and not just by African army units. Their cut was very similar to that of the pre-1860 regulation cloth trousers so it's simply a matter of painting them either red or white on your figures depending on which campaign you wish to model. To return to the Vanson sketch above, the 7th line grenadier in greatcoat and white fatigue trousers on the left does indeed look like a Crimean war French soldier, but his two colleagues on the right certainly don't.
My suggestion for the upcoming gringo 40's range would remain the same as stated in a previous post, i.e do three sets of French infantry. One in M1860 uniforms with basquine tunic, baggy trousers and two types of headgear (covered kepi with havelock and sombrero/straw hat). One in greatcoats, narrow fatigue trousers and uncovered kepis which can be used for the Crimea, Algeria, China and Italy besides Mexico. And finally one set in shell jackets, narrow fatigue trousers and both covered and uncovered kepis which can be used for all sorts of colonial campaigns besides Mexico - Algeria, China, Syria, etc.
-
it was THE period for extreme bent follicles coated with goose fat! lol i believe the style was after Napoleon 111 and the look he cultivated...
im sure Arthur will confirm.......our resident oricle for the period
The oracle hath spoken :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR7dukq-MVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR7dukq-MVw)
Incontrovertible, 100% historically accurate period evidence :D
-
superb Arthur will study in depth...........and revert.
facial hair film very funny...........
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
;)
-
Another pic :D
-
inkydave thats a beauty,i can see me commisioning waaay to many figures
so much temptation!!
regards
ged
www.gringo40s.com
ps i wonder is that a mule hes riding? hinny? probably a mule i summise ;)
-
The wonders of google. some more facial hair :D
And a huge hat and havelock o_o
-
inkydave.....top man!!...many thanks ;)
Arthur will be beside himself with the drooping wonder of a moustache!! lol
love the second figure the plate on the shako looks the business.........
regards
Ged
-
Come on Ged, there are loads of figs for you to plan for your new range...and as for the expense, we all know you are loaded! :D
-
i know Rob a veritable smorgersboard of units...........!! ;)
best regards
Ged
www.gring040s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
-
.......our resident oricle for the period
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.com ;)
Isn't that an Irish boat without a pointy end?
-
Ged,
Don't you complain about toooooo many commissions! Some of us will have to sell a vital organ to pay for the figures. lol
-
Kingscarbine
your right of course....didnt say i could afford em all!! ;)!!
lol
-
Kingscarbine
your right of course....didnt say i could afford em all!! ;)!!
lol
I know you sold your soul to pay for all these figures ;)
-
Arthur
excuse lack of input re info will revert soon!!
ps just found out the Egyptian battalion had a mounted contingent!!
interesting
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
ps just found out the Egyptian battalion had a mounted contingent!!
I am guessing you are reading that wonderful book I told you about! ;)
@Arthur, any chance you could post up the full articles from the French mags (I am guessing Tradition and/or Uniformes) you pull these bits from???
-
So, what are the plans for this range? I like your 40s a lot, though regretfully neither my income nor the space I have available allow me to collect them!
-
Rob
actually Rob yr fab book is amongst a growing mountain of really usefull info
the bit about the Mounted Egyptains is from "Danjous hand" a great book......
just read about the confederates joining the comflict ...unable to decide which side
join their General ,juble Early? sold his cannon , amunition and many muskets to
the republicans for USD,16.000.00 then went and joined the Imperial forces under
the French.!!!! :o.........boys own stuff really ( unless you were there!!)) best regards Ged ;) :) :o
-
I think Danjou traded his hand for some of your figures Ged :D
Here are a couple of useful uniform plates. This one has an Egyptian Lieutenant of the "Turkish" battalion.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-5JTbwzJe7ls/ThdWKfbIpbI/AAAAAAAAFN8/Tnj91Hqu8ks/s1600/escanear0273.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-soxVPLz-VwE/TnHJxxuvUpI/AAAAAAAAJVc/dbszq2BOfxk/s1600/LEGION+EXTRANJERA+FRANCESA0006.jpg
PS - I'll paint for figures ;)
-
kings carbine
thanks for these.........the first plate i forgot i had in the little blandford
book ..........the second plate is wonderfull...wheres that from??
;)
best regards
ged
ps thanks for the offer!!
-
xmoker
missed yr post!!
my plans are to do segments /units from the whole Maximillian period
and to cover all the various factions and troop types.............. ;)
and i know realise for a "small" conflict it is multi-layered and quite
complex and worth doing well. Thats the aim anyway!!
regards Ged www.grings.com :)
-
Ged,
Those plates are from Pierre Benigni's Légion étrangère 1927-1935
Here are the complete plates: http://legion-etrangere-pb.monsite-orange.fr/
It would be a good idea to split the range in two periods and work from there. There are figures useful for both periods, but others only for one, so you better check what's most useful to make at this point to maximise potential.
-
Wow, another nice resource...............
-
Nuno
your a good man...great series of plates there.....i love this guys work,
a real talented artist. And the figs look french!! ;)
your right Joras the goodies keep coming. Arthur has promised to return
but is a very busy man........! :)
best regards Ged
www.gringo40s.com
-
Gentlemen
update re the Egyptian battalion
i have the masters for 3 Egyptian fusiliers...the 4th ready by the end of the week..
the buglar, lieutentant , and of course the Major are in master format.
once the last fusilier is with me care of the talented Ian Mountain i will forward
to Griffin.......AND a suprise first figure or two for the the Mexican Revolution
and Maximillian Adventure to come before xmas hopefully....
best regards Ged www.gringo40.com ;)
-
Hi,
it's great to see these plans to sculp an entire line for the mexican adventure. Just because these theme will be one of my major projects in 2012.
Like so many other I like the films Vera Cruz and Major Dundee. In both films, you can see lancers. In Vera Cruz mexican imperial soldiers and in Major Dundee french lancers.
In fact I cannot find these troops in Mexico. The french lancers are fantasy in Mexico. Right ? I've found only French Hussars and Chasseurs d'Afrique in the Mexican adventure.
But what's with the imperial mexicans ?? I think they'll look awesome in their cuirassier uniforms with lances. But I cannot find such a troop - and, I would like to find it, love these troopers - .
Does anyone knows more ?
-
Arthur has promised to return but is a very busy man........! :)
I'll be back (copyright Arnold Schwarzenneger, circa 1985 A.D) :D
Got an enveloppe filled with printed paper I'm trying to get ready for Ged, so not much time for anything else at the mo' save the odd quick post on the Steve Dean forum.
Oh, and a plea to our Most Beloved Moderator, blessings be upon upon his Name : can we move the content pertaining to uniforms to a separate Maximilian Adventure resource thread as the past six pages have very little to do with the Gringo Egyptian Lieutenant ? We discussed it with Ged and thought that would be a good idea (was supposed to PM Plynkes about it, but something funny happened to time and last Thursday oddly feels like yesterday now).
-
Like so many other I like the films Vera Cruz and Major Dundee. In both films, you can see lancers. In Vera Cruz mexican imperial soldiers and in Major Dundee french lancers.
In fact I cannot find these troops in Mexico. The french lancers are fantasy in Mexico. Right ? I've found only French Hussars and Chasseurs d'Afrique in the Mexican adventure.
Decades of experience as a nuclear scientist occasionally doubling as a rock star and a brain surgeon in my spare time have taught me not to put too much stock in Hollywood's idea of an 1860's French military uniform. So, yes, no more French lancers in Mexico than four-legged Imperial walkers crewed by clone stormtroopers, I'm afraid. The French cavalry division in Mexico was made up of two squadrons from the 5th hussars, the 5th and 6th squadrons from the 12th Chasseurs à cheval (joined by the 1st and 2nd in 1864), three squadrons from the 1st Chasseurs d'Afrique, two from the 2nd Chasseurs d'Afrique and two from the 3rd Chasseurs d'Afrique.
But what's with the imperial mexicans ?? I think they'll look awesome in their cuirassier uniforms with lances. But I cannot find such a troop - and, I would like to find it, love these troopers - .
Does anyone knows more ?
The cuirassier lancers in Vera Cruz are pure invention. The costume department appears to have singled out the Palatine Guards and decided they'd look way cooler if given cuirasses and lances.
-
welcome back Arthur like you im buried under a pile of work
jumping between 1846-48......1861-67..and 1910 onwards good stuff though.
As mentioned there is lots underway and going on beneath the tranqil waters
of www.gringo40s.com
the cavalry update is most usefull thanks..........
best regards Ged ;) 8) :) >:D
-
And to give you a little sumpthin' to salivate upon, how about mounted turcos ?
The French tried to make up for their lack of cavalry by raising mounted infantry units. These could ride either mules - in which case they were traditional mounted infantry who rode into action but fought dismounted - or horses, which effectively made them cavalry units who fought on horseback and would not hesitate to charge their foes. The FFL fielded two such companies by 1866 and the men apparently rode horses rather than mules. The 2nd Bataillon d'Afrique also set up a fifty man mounted troop in 1864. The first Zouave regiment had two mounted companies, one on horses and one on mules, whereas the 3rd Zouaves had their own mule company. I've already posted the pic of the mule-mounted zouaves in action, but here's a larger version of it (note the dismounted skirmishers on the left) :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/zbourricots1b.jpg)
The mounted Turcos were raised in 1864 from native Algerian tirailleurs who could ride - and apparently enjoyed their new role immensely. It was a pretty sizable unit, being about 180 strong, and it performed as light cavalry. Their mounts were swift Mexican horses and the saddlery was also obtained locally. The men's uniforms were adapted for their new function, the baggy trousers being replaced with slightly tighter white linen ones and the shoes and gaiters with soft leather cavalry boots with large Mexican spurs. The men also carried sabres tucked under their saddles, and often wore ponchos, their infantry muskets being worn slung across their backs chasseur d'Afrique-style. Headgear was the native Algerian fez worn without a turban. Below is a Eugene Leliepvre painting of mounted turcos published in issue 23 of Les Carnets de la Sabretache (though the figure on the left is a bit too tidy - the one on the right is closer to the reality of men on campaign) :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/turcos20a20cheval.jpg)
The mounted turcos appear to have been a very effective counter-guerrilla unit and often gave Mexican irregulars a run for their money. And they're highly colourful figures to boot.
-
Arthur
cheers.......these are rather a tasty looking unit.........quite quite dramatic
:o
and different......just read about them today and was off to find uniform info
and hey presto here it is.!!!!!!!! mon dieux!!
love both figures........these are crying out to be cast in pewter/tin.......
en avant mes enfant!! best reagards Ged www.gringo40s.com :-* ;)
-
So, just how large is this range likely to be? :o :o :o :o :o :o
-
...So, yes, no more French lancers in Mexico than four-legged Imperial walkers crewed by clone stormtroopers
lol lol lol Great answer.
Really good idea. I 'will think about it, to realise a squad. :) :)
But ... in the 1840s lancer units were part of the mexican army. For example the 7th Lancers who fought at Palo Alto.
How does this, or maybe a similiar unit, looks in the 1860 ? Or was this troop type discontinued in the republican mexican army ??
Maybe you have a tipp, or a picture for gringo.
-
Joras
quite a big range old chap until the sale of the family silver runs out!! lol
Koppi
The Mexicans had an abundance of lancers in 1846-48 in the Mexican-American
War with 10 line regiments ,Jalisco lancers..even the Hussars of the Supreme
power were lance armed. in Fact at Bueno Vista the Mexicans had 18 regiments
( or portions of ) present almost outstriping the foot sloggers. with the demise
of Sanata Anna ( he did try and turn up but was shown the door!!) the Mexican
army reverted to semi austere clothing and fewer lancers. the Imperial army had
lancers.....rather pretty.
regards
Ged www.gringo40s.com
-
Althought not denominated lancers, some republican cavalry unit stil fought with the lance. There is a nice painting of a fight between republican lancers and french counter-guerilla cavalry.
Or maybe the lance is just artistic licence, Arthur ?
-
Wow! This thread is becoming a great resource. Did you know we can still access the old Mexican Adventure site (although not all pages) through Internet Archive? Lots of good stuff there. http://web.archive.org/web/20091026223926/http://www.geocities.com/fenerator/mindex.htm
Another good resource for uniforms is the NYPL Vinkhuijzen collection of military uniforms
Mexican:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614962&level=2&tword=
Belgian:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchresult.cfm?num=20&parent_id=120428&word=&snum=&s=¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pNum=
And lots of French:
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgtitle_tree.cfm?title_id=614958&level=2&tword=
Cheers
-
Nuno
thanks for the added links makes for even better reading now!!
an endless pot pourri of superb reference work ;)
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
-
Althought not denominated lancers, some republican cavalry unit stil fought with the lance. There is a nice painting of a fight between republican lancers and french counter-guerilla cavalry
I assume you are referring to the famous 1868 painting by A. Beaucé :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Beauc.jpg)
Or maybe the lance is just artistic licence, Arthur ?
No, you are quite correct : the lance was indeed used by both the Republican and the Imperial cavalry. Republican irregulars were generally lance-armed, as were several Imperial regular cavalry regiments. According to René Chartrand, pennants were usually red for the Republicans and white for the Imperials. Some Imperial regiments had pretty outlandish uniforms, but none wore cuirasses. And no French lancers were involved in the campaign since none of the Lanciers regiments sent squadrons to Mexico.
-
Yes, Arthur, it was the painting I was refering to :)
-
Arthur old chap heres one for you......1...were the"chassuers de france" the chassuers
de afrique?
2. as was the abbreviated appelation for the african battalion as
Bat D;Af!.......as was the Chasseurs d Afrique, the same unit.?
dont want to miss any new units!!
best regards Ged ;)
-
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any French army unit bearing the name chasseurs de France during the Second Empire. The chasseurs à pied - i.e light infantry battalions - were known as the chasseurs d'Orléans during the 1840's as a tribute to the Duke of Orléans, but I am not aware of any unit called chasseurs de France in the 1860's. Could be a name or nickname used by some foreign observer who was not familiar with official French army terminology : what's your source for this ? The name certainly wasn't used by the Chasseurs d'Afrique in any case. I'll dig a little deeper and see if I can come up with something.
Bats d'Af (colloquial short form for bataillons d'Afrique) was the nickname given to the Infanterie légère d'Afrique, i.e the three light infantry battalions formed from volunteers, hard cases and former members of penal units and stationed in North Africa. They were part of the African army and distinct from the FFL. Like the Legion, they wore standard issue French infantry uniforms with some minor distinguishing features. Bat D'af tends to be a slightly later phrase : during the second empire, the men were more often known as the Zéphyrs or the Joyeux.
-
hello, "chassseurs de France" were the "chasseurs à cheval de la ligne" , it is the official name of them under Louis Philippe, and it stays unoficialy during the second empire!
for the bat'd'af (bataillons d'infanterie légère d'Afrique) the dress was the same as line infantry, the main differences, were white metal butons and NCO /officers stripes (jackets and kepis) black stripes on officers/ trousers (like FFL) , for privats yellow stripes (corporals) and white metal buttons, yellow straps on kepi (blue for infantry), blue or red sash like FFL.
The Bat' d'af were soldiers with an ancient civilian or military jugement, iff a soldier was judge one time during his duty he was in "compagnies de disciplines" two times , "sections de pionniers de discipline" . First were armed like Bat d'af, second were not , it was a kind of jail with working on algerian roads all alond the day! the "bagne" a kind of penal colony. The most celebrous was Biribi in northern africa (just after Second Empire)!, and the devise was the famous "march or die" wich was adopted soon by FFL too !
best regards
paco
-
hello, "chassseurs de France" were the "chasseurs à cheval de la ligne" , it is the official name of them under Louis Philippe, and it stays unoficialy during the second empire!
Missed that one. Chasseurs de France would stand for the 12th Chasseurs à Cheval in our context then.
-
thanks gents one and all...........for all the clarification
Arthur ive just finished Danjous Hand were i read all the abbreviated names.
Top book though down to the smallest detail on the Egyptian battalion as well
who at one stage had an French FFL as advisor and mentor.......name slips my
mind . Split into penny packets, used to guard the rail link , and join in on the
pre0-emptive raids of the Contras.............
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.com
;)
-
gents
theres a posting in the wild west section of the lieutenant of the Egyptian battalion
painted by the talented Mark Dixon of Artwho9 painting service.........
best regards
ged
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
;)
-
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2870umo.jpg)
Here's mine :)
-
stunning Bugsda another real beauty from you.........looking forward to seeing
him in the flesh!! ;) well done that man
regards
Ged
-
Great work Bugsda, I especially like the face 8)
www.gallopingmajorwargames.com
-
Ooh, very nice Bugsda!
He preeety!
-
Thumbs up!
-
The Bugsda-painted Egyptian major ain't half bad either :
(http://i43.tinypic.com/14boz61.jpg)
-
spoilt for choice Arthur!! o_o
-
Right, time to give this thread its pre-Christmas bump 8)
Today's piccie is a curiosity : a period French engraving depicting French zouaves in law enforcement mode, undercover style. Given that the Maximilian campaign was as much a Mexican civil war as a war of national liberation, the country's roads became notoriously dangerous as bands of outlaws masquerading as guerrillas attacked and robbed travellers and coaches. In addition to fighting Republican troops, French troops were often detailed to maintain law and order, catching up with bandits whenever they could. The pic below depicts a band of Mexican highwaymen attempting to rob a coach, only to discover in appropriately melodramatic fashion that its defenceless Mexican occupants are actually a bunch of hard-as-nails zouaves in disguise :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/zdiligence1b.jpg)
-
Thats a brilliant picture Arthur, well done 8)
-
Got some French heavy metal as well...
The artillery does not appear to have been the most popular of subjects among illustrators and photographers, but we still have some visual stuff to go by. Top pic is a period drawing published in Le Monde Illustré in 1864 and depicting the French guns being hauled up a hill during the siege of Oaxaca. Contemporary sources invariably show gunners wearing the plain undress veste instead of the full dress coatee. Trousers were dark blue with a double red stripe and kepis were worn instead of shakos, usually with a white cover and curtain (the shako appears to have been worn in Italy during the 1859 campagn, though).
The next two pictures are not directly related to the Mexican campaign, but give a good idea of the appearance of French gunners on campaign. First is a painting depicting a mountain gun battery in Algeria in the mid-1850's and the men would not have looked too different in Mexico. All the gunners are wearing vestes, although two NCO's have clung to their coatees and red epaulettes. The mounted battery commander wears the frock coat beloved of many French officers of the period. Finally, the photograph at the bottom is dated 1867 and shows gunners training somewhere in France. The men are wearing shakos and vestes while the chefs de pièce/NCO's have again opted for dress coatees.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/siege_oaxaca_LeMondeIllustr1864.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/ArtillerieFranaise2.jpg)
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Artillerie1.jpg)
-
Thankyou, Arthur. This is more good stuff. :D
-
Arthur
your back! many thanks for the new swathe of info. Hard Drive went
on computer last week.........1/100 chance of saving everything. i was
a lucky gringo!!.......computer guy installing mobile back up hard drive
today .........phew!!
the "ambush" scenario is pretty exciting for a wargame.......not sure if
i can strech to getting a carriage done! the artillery crew and equipment are superb, the smaller pieces look like 12pdr mountain guns..if you have any more uniforms or equipment shots that would be cool... thanks ;)
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
-
Wow! Good stuff Arthur. This is getting better and better.
-
I'm reviving this thread with French staff uniforms as per Ged's request.
French staff essentially fell into three categories : the general officers, the corps d'état-major (staff officers proper) and the various ADC's attached to headquarters on an ad hoc basis. The first two were permanent corps whereas the ADC's were simply infantry or cavalry officers seconded from their parent unit for the duration of a campaign. Generals had an elaborate full dress uniform which I won't bother describing here since it was never worn in the field. Typical campaign dress for the generals consisted in a plain single-breasted black undress frock coat with an epaulette on each shoulder. Headgear was a kepi, occasionally worn with a white cover if the climate demanded it.
Corps d'état-major officers wore a full-dress coatee and bicorne for parades and ceremonial occasions, but field dress consisted of either the very elegant undress spencer jacket (a braided dolman virtually identical to that worn by Chasseurs d'Afrique and Spahi officers, except that it was dark blue instead of light blue and red respectively), or the ubiquitous dark blue or black single-breasted frock coat worn with epaulettes on both shoulders and an aiguillette on the right shoulder. The trousers were red. Kepis were worn in the field instead of the bicorne, often with a white cover although sombreros could occasionally be seen as well. Most period paintings and photographs show staff officers in frock coats, albeit with a sprinkling of dark blue/black braided jackets here and there.
Beaucé's paintings occasionally show Spahi officers attached to Forey or Bazaine's staff as ADC's, as seen in the Assault on Puebla below or Forey's entry into Mexico City. This is intriguing as no Spahi squadrons served in Mexico, but since Bazaine came from the African army he may conceivably have attached a few spahi officers to his staff before sailing from France.
Most paintings show French staff dressed with few concessions to the Mexican climate apart from white covers and curtains on the kepis, and frock coats worn open to reveal a waistcoat and body sash underneath, though that may be because the actions depicted essentially take place in the cooler highlands. Bazaine did cut quite a dashing figure in his white half-cape and kepi cover : note his non-regulation jaguar-skin pistol holsters, which were supposed to make him appear as a modern-day reincarnation of an Aztec conqueror, the jaguar being associated with the Aztec emperors of legend.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/BazaineInMexicobyBeauc.jpg)
Here is the photo Beaucé based his painting upon :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/BazaineinMexicancampaigndressphoto.jpg)
A corps d'état-major officer in full dress :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/Staffofficerfulldress1855-1870.jpg)
A corps d'état-major officer in undress spencer braided jacket (sorry for the poor picture) :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/Staffofficerinspencerbraidedjacket.jpg)
General Forey and his staff entering Mexico city. Note the spahi officer in red in the background.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/GeneralForeyStaffMexico1863.jpg)
Finally, here's a Roger Fenton photograph of General Bosquet in the Crimea wit his staff : two corps d'état-major officers in frock coats and two African army cavalry ADC's, one a spahi and the other a chasseur d'Afrique.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/GeneralBosquetstaffCrimeabyRogerfenton.jpg)
-
Forgot to add Beaucés painting on the assault on Puebla. Bazaine and his staff are in the center directing operations. Note the two spahi ADC's in red braided jackets and light blue trousers on the right.
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/AssaultOnPuebla1863byBeauc.jpg)
-
Arthur
many thanks indeed there is some superb uniform information
scattered throughout these wonderfull images..............digesting
as we speak!!.
regards
ged www.gringo40s.com ;)
-
I'll even throw in a general in black undress frock coat for good measure :D :
(http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i414/arthurs-account/Mexican%20Campaign/Staff/Brigadierinundress1865-1870.jpg)
-
Arthur excelellente my man...........hes a tempting figure to do......
i guess the Aides de campe followed along General Officer lines but
more subjued less fancy lace and chicken guts/austrian Knotts?
the generals etc are proving very interesting indeed ;)
many thanks and regards Ged
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com
-
Dunno how far you and Ian are willing to go with the staff, but my suggestion would be a set of three figures : one general in open frock coat, one ADC wearing a frock coat adorned with epaulettes and aiguillette, one ADC wearing the braided hussar-type jacket known as a spencer in proper Franglais and (poorly) illustrated in one of the pics above. With a different paint job, the latter can also be used as an officer of both spahis or Chasseurs d'Afrique, since the cut of the jacket was identical.
And let's not forget that Bazaine personality figure with white half-cape and covered kepi... :D
-
Arthur
thanks gor your input.Bazaine for sure has to be done with his funcky
half cape and a smattering of multi-purpose General Staff and officers
not sure of the exact composition as yet, but your suggestions are
good! :)
regards Ged www,gringo40s.com