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Miniatures Adventure => Fantasy Adventures => Topic started by: Blackwolf on January 27, 2012, 09:08:49 AM
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What are everyones views on what Middle Earth Orcs look like and who makes good ones? As a bit of a Tolkien nerd, I have distinct views on how I think they look,now I like the Asgard Orcs, I have however left it a bit late to order some from Viking Forge (not sure they even post outside the U.S.). Some of the GW LOTR Orcs are okay (the Moria Orcs and the White Hand Uruks are terrible tho' and there all too small) and the Wargames Factory Orcs not too bad (no boots and a bit Asiatic tho'). Any other suggestions and thoughts?
Cheers
Wolfie
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Good point, Blackwolf! I’ve also thought about it and I think I would take the Ral Partha Gargantua Orcs sculpted by Bob Olley, just the right mix of great sculpting, nice scale (about 30mm, I think, have to check mine) and pure maliciousness.
(http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/images/02-260set.jpg)
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They are nice :) I would use the very early Ral Partha LOTR Orcs (of which I have three..) if they were still available. Can one still get Bob Olley ones Prof.? Although this is the wrong thread I am very happy to make it worth someones while,if they have some,make sure you send me a PM tho',don't want to derail my own thread ;)
Edit; just had a look at Ral Partha Europe,available! Cheers Prof. :)
However I'm still after everyones opinions?
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Several options come to mind. The RP Gargantuan Orcs are certainly nice and scale well with 28mm miniatures. The lesser Orcs from them would work as some kind of weak slave-like orcish troops. The great strength of RP sculpts is their high level of detail and great poses.
Edit: Keep in mind that regular RP miniatures (at least those with integral bases) are true 25mm scale and thus look very small next to 28mm ones.
(http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/images/02-077.jpg)
(http://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/images/02-073a.jpg)
Also check out the Brothers Hildebrandt depiction of LOTR Orcs, with their distinctive long snouts:
(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/siege.jpg)
Mithril also made Orcs after the license moved to them in the mid-80s.
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Cheers Cherno,the good thing is I intend to oppose them with Redbox Games Elves,so it should be fine ;)
Oh and cheers Prof. your suggestions were on the money :D
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Well, I never saw them as the wide-jawed GW style orcs. The movie Orcs from PJ Lord of the Rings are actually very close to the picture I had of them. But that's of course only my personal view.
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The RP orcs Cherno has pictured are my favorite of all time! If only they weren't so damn small! >:(
Broke my little heart when I sold my 100 piece army, complete w/ The War Machine... :'( Had to face the fact that I can't stand to paint true 25mm, and they deserved someone who would give them the love (and paint!) they deserved.
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Also check out the Brothers Hildebrandt depiction of LOTR Orcs, with their distinctive long snouts:
(http://img-fan.theonering.net/rolozo/images/hildebrandt/siege.jpg)
Mithril also made Orcs after the license moved to them in the mid-80s.
I hate the Hildebrandts. Those fucking hippies almost ruined the books for me. :-[
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Perhaps its due to later influence but I lean toward the WFB Orc style myself....though I know its not an option for the LPL. What I hate about the "Peter Jackson" orcs is their skin color...it just doesn't work for my view of what they should look like. But now 99% of people you talk to will think thats what Orcs are supposed to look like...sigh...I hate when someone makes a movie of a book I love and totally ruins my internal vision of what these characters look like...It looks so much cooler in my head! o_o
Blue
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Well, I never saw them as the wide-jawed GW style orcs. The movie Orcs from PJ Lord of the Rings are actually very close to the picture I had of them. But that's of course only my personal view.
Yeah I agree,just didn't like the armour and weapons of the White Hand and the Moria Orcs.
And Blue I hope you were not expecting green Orcs,the horror,the horror.
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Aren't they described as green in the books? I would paint mine a very dark green but yes...green....sorry... ;D
Cheers,
Blue
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Aren't they described as green in the books? I would paint mine a very dark green but yes...green....sorry... ;D
Cheers,
Blue
The only description is 'swarty'. I think you are meant to conjure an inner image of them.
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Tolkien's Uruk-Hai should be black. Orcs have kind of grey skin, described also as sallow-skinned.
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I rather like the Nick Lund Orcs from Chronicle/Citadel Miniatures and Grenadier. The Grenadier ones are still available too.
I never finished reading the LOTR though so perhaps I'm not the best person to answer this question ;)
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How about this for orc colours:
(http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv182/Quendil_photos/LOTR/WD53Cover.jpg)
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Yeah I agree,just didn't like the armour and weapons of the White Hand and the Moria Orcs.
And Blue I hope you were not expecting green Orcs,the horror,the horror.
My man! Both points were a bit of a letdown in the movies. Even though the orcs in the hobbit are called goblins I have never in my studies of various Tolkien books found any indication that they'd be any different from orcs.
I also agree with you on the Uruk-Hai outfit. For my taste there was way too much plate armour (in general, actually. I don't particularly care for the Gondor armour either). And The swords were desrcibed as straight broadswords, not some weird cleavers. But I can live with the PJ design. It could be a lot worse.
And Blue... NO! No green whatsoever. Orcs have black blood, so it is only reasonable to expect their skin color to be very dark, almost black. Apart from the fact that the color black (or not-color, if you prefer) has a certain symbolic meaning here as well. Grenn is a color for things growing and living - way to positive for Tolkien's orcs.
Then again, if green is the color you like the orcs to be, why not? But a nerd like me might sticks to black.
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For Uruk Hai I'd say Grenadier Half Orcs.
Savage Dark Age saxon style murdering fighting Uruk Hai:
(http://www.mirliton.it/images/catalog/HO002.jpg)
sculpted by Mark Copplestone (from Mirliton, Em4 or Terrain Warehouse)
For Mordor Orcs I like the old Harlequin LotR orcs
Long mailcoats and some wear great carolingian looking helmets. (which make Artizan Carolingians the perfect Men of Gondor)
(http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/images/Grendel%20Fantasy/GFR0005.jpg)
(http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/images/Grendel%20Fantasy/GFR0001_01.jpg)
http://www.scotiagrendel.com/Products/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_46_203_204
Hasslefree has some very nice goblins too.
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Do you know the metal Mordor Orcs GW released just at the start of their LotR range? I think these work okay, even if you are not to pleased with the costumes in the film (neither am I).
(http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004/P0901-01.jpg)
Should I ever abandon the path of Pig-faced Orcs, these would be the ones I'd look for.
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Tom Meier's orcs and elves in his own Thunderbolt Mountain are not hit either:
(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/goblins/8521.jpg)
(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/8545_t.JPG)
(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/elves/8041.jpg)
There's a quite decent selection by now.
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Meier all the way for Middle Earth. :-* :-* :-*
You know, back when I was on a 10mm kick I dreamed of doing 10mm second age middle earth, and so these Meier figs (I'm always like quite a bit) were never a serious consideration. (10mm as I wanted a big army feel.) But since then I finally crossed the hurdle into accepting a single figure can represent hundreds or thousands... Uh oh, time for me to look away! Better not start oggling Thunderbolt Mountain figs and wind up in trouble. ;) :D
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As I recall from a careful reading of The Lord of The Rings long ago, Tolkien describes orcs as essentially Saxons gone bad.
Ringmail shirts, conical iron helms with nasal, round shields, straight swords, 'swart' complexion. Like slightly unsavoury dark age types.
That's it.
Everything else, all the entire massive overblown gothic confection of sub-Tolkien fantasy arms and armour - not least the entire godawful world of Warhammer and all its bastard offspring - has been piled in a huge teetering tower of baroque nonsense upon that tiny foundation: a couple of one-line mentions of something rather uninteresting arms-and-armour-wise, vaguely resembling something Tolkien might have seen in the Bayeux tapestry or picked up from his study of Anglo-Saxon text or Viking sagas.
Nothing to suggest that orcs are in any way reptilian, porcine, canine, or lime green munchkins. Just ugly, swarthy, proto-men (or elves).
:D
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Word!
Proto-men indeed. devolved cannibalistic miserable creatures.
I've said a hundred times before that the physical appearance of most modern fantasy ghouls resembles Tolkiens orcs much more than most popular depictions of orcs.
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The Uruk-hai used straight swords, regular Orcs used scimitars. This difference is noticed by Aragorn the first time Uruk-hai are encountered. All were described as "swart" or "swarthy", and slant-eyed, though.
Tolkien said somewhere their appearance was that of 'degraded repulsive Mongol-types' or some such thing you'd get into trouble for if you said it today.
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Citadel Hobgoblins had an Asian look to them back in the day, as I recall, so they would fit with Tolkien's vision (I suppose, not sure if he imagined them actually dressing like Asians). I always really liked those figures, but they aren't exactly what I imagined the Orcs looking like when I read the books.
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The Uruk-hai used straight swords, regular Orcs used scimitars. This difference is noticed by Aragorn the first time Uruk-hai are encountered. All were described as "swart" or "swarthy", and slant-eyed, though.
Tolkien said somewhere their appearance was that of 'degraded repulsive Mongol-types' or some such thing you'd get into trouble for if you said it today.
Ah yes, that's right. I'd forgotten about the scimitars for the poorer sort of orcs, and the Asiatic aspect... Tolkien was a man of his day after all. I don't have a clue what his track record or view was on racial matters, but as a clear enthusiast for all things Anglo-Saxon, it's not entirely surprising that he'd default to a kind of central Asian ethnic look as his reference point for degenerate savage footsoldiers of 'the enemy'.
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As a result of MUSHing, 20 years back I would be able to serve Plynkes with the exact quote. Oh dear... Thank god that has passed. But I still concur, the devolvment of orcs was more on the moral side than the physical (although still noticeable).
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Wikipedia has a fairly comprehensive page on Tolkien's Orcs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29)
Orcs are described as ugly and filthy fanged humanoids. The largest can reach near-human height, but they are always shorter, and some are as small as Hobbits (since Frodo and Sam disguise themselves as such when they enter Mordor). In contrast, crossbreeds between Men and Orcs are called "man-high, but with goblin-faces."[14] However, some Orcs are very broad, if not tall. Many Orcs have long arms, like monkeys or apes. Many of them also have crooked backs and legs.
Tolkien describes Orcs explicitly in one of his Letters:
...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.[15]
In a word: 'debased'. (at least from your average early 20th century white western male perspective)
Contrast that with your average current day Orc, who is typically green, taller than a man and one of the biggest steroid abusers in this or any other universe.
Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson
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Great suggestions so far!
I'm also a Tolkien nerd and I heartly agree with most suggestions.
Since Tolkien never said a final word about the origin of Orcs and he thought about three different possibilities, I use all the three to have variety:
1 - Elven origin: For this one I prefer Mithril Orcs (not a heavy build, pointy ears).
2 - Mannish origin: The "average" Orc with Mannish proportions, for this ones I use many different brands since Human race offers a wide variety (Ral Partha, Bronze Age, Tom Meier...). I paint the skin almost human (all tones, from dark to pale depending on the "background" they seem to come from because their equipment).
(http://www.bronzeagemin.com/IMAGES/miniatures/25MM/Fantasy/28mm-orcs/32mm-orc-set1.jpg)
(These are Bronze Age's).
3 - Animal origin: In this case they would be hominids (some kind of big monkeys). For these I use the old Nick Lund sculpts (I know they are a bit crude for today standards, but they work for me). I paint them grey, as hairless gorillas.
Then, these three basic races would have mixed giving birth to a lot of new "hybrid" races.
And finally, there were some lesser Maiar incarnated as orcs (legendary Orc generals which ever returned to battle after suffering mortal wounds). In the late Third Age, there would be some Maiar-blooded orcs (very few indeed, but the perfect excuse for a shaman, a huge elite Orc....).
So, taking this in account, you can have this:
(http://www.e-minis.net/images/retour/blcd11.jpg)
As an hybrid race of animal/Maiar origin (it's quite big!), probably breed by Sauron himself for his elite guard (note the eye on the helmet).
Even from an strictly purist point of view, there are different races which vary in skin colour and phisycal appearance.
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I'm with Pil - I like the Chronicle and Grenadier Orcs by Nick Lund. They work well en masse
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/urukinfantry2.jpg)
With a few adaptations to take in some of the banners and personal touches from the films they work well imho
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/whitehanduruks.jpg)
I am especially fond of the American-Werewolf-in-London-esque Wargs :-*
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x200/sukhe_bator/Uruks/wargriders2.jpg)
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Great suggestions so far!
I'm also a Tolkien nerd and I heartly agree with most suggestions.
Since Tolkien never said a final word about the origin of Orcs and he thought about three different possibilities, I use all the three to have variety:
1 - Elven origin: For this one I prefer Mithril Orcs (not a heavy build, pointy ears).
My favourite pet-peeve. Elves don't have pointy ears! At least not in Tolkien's world. I forgot exactly where but he specifically denies pinty ears as that looks to much like fairies. So here again my mantra: No pointy ears!
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I am with you Lars!
Elves don't have pointy ears, they are just particularly fine-looking people.
Orcs don't have faces like pigs, dogs, crocodiles or monkeys, or any combination thereof. They are just particularly vicious, ugly-looking people.
According to Tolkien, who let's remember, invented orcs ;)
So much second, third, fourth and fifth rate sh*t has been piled on Tolkien's inventions by so many lesser imaginations, that we have quite lost track of how the world of orcs, elves, dwarves and men was meant to look, according to the man who created it.
:D
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... we have quite lost track of how the world of orcs, elves, dwarves and men was meant to look, according to the man who created it.
:D
Considering Tolkien only ever approved of one artist's interpretation of his work, and that was Cor Blok, maybe he isn't the best person to ask...
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/Cor%20Blok/riddles.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/Cor%20Blok/The_Battle_of_the_Hornburg.jpg)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/Cor%20Blok/The_Mumak_of_Harad.jpg)
So according to Tolkien, the best LotR rings figures would be ones we make ourselves out of pipe-cleaners and plasticine. ;)
(Actually I really like Cor Blok, but I can see how some people might not.)
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And finally, there were some lesser Maiar incarnated as orcs (legendary Orc generals which ever returned to battle after suffering mortal wounds). In the late Third Age, there would be some Maiar-blooded orcs (very few indeed, but the perfect excuse for a shaman, a huge elite Orc....).
I take exception to this statement. The incarnate Maiar in Middle-Earth are the five Istari (Wizards), Sauron, any Balrogs that may be lying around, Melian the Maia (mother of Luthien) and possibly Ungoliant. While Morgoth presumably had other corrupted Maiar lieutenants (lesser than Sauron), none of them are noted as incarnate in Orc form.
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My favourite pet-peeve. Elves don't have pointy ears! At least not in Tolkien's world. I forgot exactly where but he specifically denies pinty ears as that looks to much like fairies. So here again my mantra: No pointy ears!
This is correct. The main descriptor for Tolkien Elves seems to be "faces full of light". Otherwise they seem to be indistinguishable from extremely beautiful humans. No mention is ever made of pointy ears.
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I am with you Lars!
Elves don't have pointy ears, they are just particularly fine-looking people.
Orcs don't have faces like pigs, dogs, crocodiles or monkeys, or any combination thereof. They are just particularly vicious, ugly-looking people.
According to Tolkien, who let's remember, invented orcs ;)
So much second, third, fourth and fifth rate sh*t has been piled on Tolkien's inventions by so many lesser imaginations, that we have quite lost track of how the world of orcs, elves, dwarves and men was meant to look, according to the man who created it.
:D
And I'm with you Richard (and Lars). Could not have said it better myself ;) Tolkien was creating a myth cycle based on either history or the myths of other countries,for instance The Children of Hurin is in some ways a retelling of the Kalevala.
So Elves do not have pointy ears,nor in my mind do they use pseudo katanas/naginatas. And if you read some early works Elves sometimes wore beards (Beleg Strongbow),Cirdan certainly did. As for Legolas being blonde phhhhth!
And the best miniature ranges for Elves? Well I go for Red Box Games,however Tre needs to sculpt a few more chaps. Thunderbolt Mountain do a couple of nice minis,they can be a little flouncy...... lol
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Changed the title of the thread,so we don't end up with multiple threads or go off it altogether......
Cheers
Guy
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As for Legolas being blonde
To paraphrase: 'Legolas don't surf'. Not the real one, he can't:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVx_JZSc1s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVx_JZSc1s)
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Oh god, there's not much I hated more from those movies than that scene. >:(
<<-- is one of those "has-read-the-Silmarillion-a-half-dozen-times-or-so" kinds of idiot.
For myself, I think John Howe's work is the closest to what my mind's eye's sees when I read the stuff. But an alternative take on the imagery, there's also Angus McBride's huge body of work done for Iron Crown Enterprises. It's often inaccurate, but he's a wonderfully skilled artist (thanks to his history as an Osprey artist, his work is very detailed with regards to clothing and gear and he has a great grasp of motion, action, and character) and did a LOT of material, including many regions or peoples that didn't get any attention elsewhere.
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I have always liked the Miniature Figurines Mythical Earth Orcs and Man Orcs.
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whoaa capthugeca,
OLD SCHOOL Old school - I liked my old Minifigs Man Orcs so much I reincarnated them as a pike regiment...
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Yeah, I had almost the complete Minifigs LOTR range.Long gone now,their Uruks were good. I did use Minifigs Normans as my Riders of Rohan however.
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I have always liked the Miniature Figurines Mythical Earth Orcs and Man Orcs.
This. Totally and unequivocally. Minifigs 'Mythical Earth' range might have been somewhat basic quality by today's standards (well it was, what, 1976?) but surely came closest to the fairly uncomplicated look of the peoples, arms and armour Tolkien describes in the Lord of the Rings. And some lovely character in certain of the figures.
(With the possible exception of the balrog, which resembled a cuddly lion mascot in a romper suit!)
I too actually love the Peter Jackson films, which were massively influenced by John Howe and Alan Lee. It's just a different vision of Tolkien's world, and one which isn't actually very true to the book. Far too ornate / gothic / baroque, in all sorts of ways, and influenced by far too many other mythic and design ideas which just aren't in the Lord of the Rings. Before they ever got to work on the films, Howe and Lee, with their endless Tolkien calendars down the last 30 years, plus game design artwork and much else besides, are probably the two men most responsible for subverting Tolkien's own idea of Middle Earth, and replacing it with their own much more ornate vision in the popular imagination.
Personally, I think this is a zillion times closer to Tolkien's vision / description of the Mumakil in the garden of Ithilien, than any pile of Warhammer Fantasy Battles crap.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/Plynkes/Cor%20Blok/The_Mumak_of_Harad.jpg)
I did use Minifigs Normans as my Riders of Rohan however.
So did I! lol
God those Normans were good (at the time). ;)
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Yeah they were cracking! The horses I remember were good too,but then I was only 13.....
Those Cor Blok pictures are brilliant,very evocative. They suit the feeling of LOTR jolly well. John Blanche did some very good illustrations for the Tolkien Bestiary which were lovely,much less mannered than his later work.
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I like any interpretation of Middle Earth as long as it looks good. I remember a couple of books I got as Christmas presents as a kid, with lots of drawings by different artists. Sometimes the Pelennor Fields looked like the Bayeux tapestry, sometimes it looked like a Jack Kirby comic-book, and I loved all of them (actually, as an 80s kid, I pictured orcs with pig faces when I first read the novels - I blame the "Dungeons and Dragons" TV show). My own collection is a mix of GW official miniatures (I love their Rohirrim) and early medieval stuff.
As for Peter Jackson, he just filmed his own vision of the story, and that's not a bad thing per se. I'm not a fan of the films but they could have been a lot worse. The problem is, they were so successful that we're going to see the PJ look everywhere from now on. Which, by the way, is exactly the opposite to Cor Blok's :D
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Wow - I'd never even heard of Cor Blok before today, and I thought I was quite a Tolkien afficionado. I think I still love Alan Lee (and really don't like John Howe :?) over any of the other 'mainstream' LoTR illustrators, but I'll be looking out for some more of those Blok images.
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Personally, I think this is a zillion times closer to Tolkien's vision / description of the Mumakil in the garden of Ithilien, than any pile of Warhammer Fantasy Battles crap.
Richard...you know I respect your opinion and love your work...but this kind of attitude is getting a bit abrasive for me...There are some of us who actually like WFB...particularly the old versions. Am I claiming that its Tolkein's world... no...The mythology may be based on the same species...but it is its own thing. I could make a similar argument about pirate games and their "historical" inaccuracies....are they loosely based on historical events/people... yes...are they true to history...no they are games!
I just think this kind of bashing is unnecessary....I'm happy to read everyone's opinions of what they think about the ME races...but we don't need to slam other folks interests at the same time.
Just My .02 cents...
Blue
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Oooh yes. That was a bit abrasive was't it?
Still, one man's abrasive is another's vigorous debate ;)
Tolkien created a unique and beautiful world which millions of people fell in love with.
Then a load of other people came along, took that beautiful thing and built on it, distorted it, and generally bastardised it (partly for art, mainly for money) - so that the original beautiful thing is no longer recognisable under a great encrustation of other stuff.
Games Workshop (who in many ways I love, as a successful British company contributing much needed exports to our balance of payments) have been at the forefront of this with their 'orks' and other assorted Tolkien-derived concepts...
So I'm glad we're having this discussion. Because it reminds me that Tolkien did have a vision for what the various fantasy peoples he invented looked like. I think that's worth keeping sight of, no matter how other interests have come in and played fast and loose with his ideas.
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Fair enough....discussion is good...I'll try to be a bit less sensitive... ;)
I would say though that at least GW calls their world something else entirely...even if its "based" on the same mythology. I find the Peter Jackson "interpretation" more offensive because he calls it the Lord of the Rings....but it actually has little imagery in common with the original...at least the original in my mind... o_o And what really drives me batty is that the imagery that he used is now considered "The Correct Imagery" in the general populaces mind....when as this discussion has pointed out...their is no right interpretation (other than the one in your own imagination.)
I wonder what Tolkien himself would have thought of the movies.
What I have found most enlightening about this discussion is the, now apparent, lack of detail about these subjects that he put into the books...Despite the ENORMOUS detail he built into the development and descriptions of places, history, languages etc....he left a lot about the "races" to the imagination....its an interesting juxtaposition.
Cheers,
Blue
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This. Totally and unequivocally. Minifigs 'Mythical Earth' range might have been somewhat basic quality by today's standards (well it was, what, 1976?) but surely came closest to the fairly uncomplicated look of the peoples, arms and armour Tolkien describes in the Lord of the Rings. And some lovely character in certain of the figures.
(With the possible exception of the balrog, which resembled a cuddly lion mascot in a romper suit!)
I too actually love the Peter Jackson films, which were massively influenced by John Howe and Alan Lee. It's just a different vision of Tolkien's world, and one which isn't actually very true to the book. Far too ornate / gothic / baroque, in all sorts of ways, and influenced by far too many other mythic and design ideas which just aren't in the Lord of the Rings. Before they ever got to work on the films, Howe and Lee, with their endless Tolkien calendars down the last 30 years, plus game design artwork and much else besides, are probably the two men most responsible for subverting Tolkien's own idea of Middle Earth, and replacing it with their own much more ornate vision in the popular imagination.
Personally, I think this is a zillion times closer to Tolkien's vision / description of the Mumakil in the garden of Ithilien, than any pile of Warhammer Fantasy Battles crap.
So did I! lol
God those Normans were good (at the time). ;)
That's the thing, really. Tolkien's own descriptions of the level of "technology" in Middle earth were of a roughly seventh-century world. The Gondorians were more akin to Byzantines, echoing old Roman glory than any sort of high medieval knights.
Saxons, early Carolingians, Vikings, late Goths, and Byzantines are all close to the sort of thing. Very early Muslims or Maygars/Huns etc. for the southern and eastern folks.
When I think of John Howe, it's more for the Elder days stuff, or anything related to the "Magic" of middle earth. Howe is one of the few artists to use appropriate restraint when it comes to the more supernatural elements of Tolkien's life, he's also got a great grasp of landscape and how the geography dominates the storytelling in Tolkien's work. His pictures are the best depiction of an undeveloped world, made up largely of daunting wildernesses and there's a clean simplicity about the landscapes AND people that fits a post-roman world. I think that's something the other folks like Naismith or Lee have missed.
Anyway, Howe's depictions aren't without errors, but I think he gets more right than most.
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" a savage race, which dwelt at first in the swamps, a stunted, foul and puny tribe, scarcely human, and having no language save one which bore but slight resemblance to human speech."
"They made their foes flee in horror because their swarthy aspect was fearful, and they had, if I may call it so, a sort of shapeless lump, not a head, with pin-holes rather than eyes. Their hardihood is evident in their wild appearance, and they are beings who are cruel to their children on the very day they are born. For they cut the cheeks of the males with a sword, so that before they receive the nourishment of milk they must learn to endure wounds. Hence they grow old beardless and their young men are without comeliness, because a face furrowed by the sword spoils by its scars the natural beauty of a beard. They are short in stature, quick in bodily movement, alert horsemen, broad shouldered, ready in the use of bow and arrow, and have firm-set necks which are ever erect in pride. Though they live in the form of men, they have the cruelty of wild beasts."
Jordanes' description of the Huns. 551 AD.
I'm sure Tolkien was inspired much by these kind of reports when he created the orcs.
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Gee, that's pretty close to describing orcs (minus the horsemanship). I have always pictured the "Easterlings" as Huns (in the original meaning of the word). But Jordanes really goes to town here.
Well, I guess Tolkien did indeed leave out most details, yet he somehow makes us believe we know what the various cultures look like. That's really what makes reading his books so fascinating. I basically agree with the idea that Middle-Earth is closer to early medieval times (pre 1000AD) than later periods. Somehow I never managed to get this Roman Empire = Gondor notion. I've always pictured the Dunedain to be more mid to north European (maybe because of this grey eyed, fair-skinned description or maybe because Arnor was a northern country). However, the way the culture is described I agree that the Roman heritage sounds reasonable.
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Wargamers and roleplayers love to put things in boxes, don't they? :) All over the internet you see Gondor is this, Rohan is that, based on not much at all really. Tolkien never really much went in for describing what things looked like in any detail. He left huge visual gaps which people fill with their own imagination (hence all the (angry) disagreement, I guess).
So Tolkien is set in the Dark Ages? Yet there is a small part of Middle Earth where they have pubs, tobacco, waistcoats with buttons and pockets and gunpowder fireworks. Sounds more like 18th Century England to me. ;)
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What I have found most enlightening about this discussion is the, now apparent, lack of detail about these subjects that he put into the books...Despite the ENORMOUS detail he built into the development and descriptions of places, history, languages etc....he left a lot about the "races" to the imagination....its an interesting juxtaposition.
That's a great insight. I guess as a linguist and academic, Tolkien was deeply interested in inventing / describing in great detail those aspects of his mythical cultures that relate to intellectual concepts: language, story, song, history and so on. Yet he paid only cursory attention to more low-brow / material manifestations of culture like physical appearance, dress, arms, armour, architecture and so on.
Unfortunately, these are the visual, tangible aspects which artists, filmmakers, games companies, gamers and just about everybody else are most interested in - because they are the outer portrayal of Tolkien's world and its peoples. Most people aren't that interested in the inner portrayal of language, culture and genealogy that clearly fascinated Tolkien so much.
So I guess it's unsurprising that people have felt free to impose their own visions and interpretations of what this should have looked like. The problem is that most of these third party versions, whether Peter Jackson's or Games Workshop's, ride roughshod over the few clues and descriptions which Tolkien did include...
Except for the Shire, of course. Most people seem to manage to get hobbits right :)
(Probably because they are the one 'race' which Tolkien described in a huge amount of detail).
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I enjoy seeing different interpretations of the same source material, though sometimes they are a little odd. The one I could never reconcile myself to was the Ralph Bakshi movie's portrayal of Boromir as a sort of Victorian idea of a Viking, in horned helmet and fur leotard. The mind boggles at what Gondor would have looked like if he'd ever been able to make the sequel.
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The one I could never reconcile myself to was the Ralph Bakshi movie's portrayal of Boromir as a sort of Victorian idea of a Viking, in horned helmet and fur leotard. The mind boggles at what Gondor would have looked like if he'd ever been able to make the sequel.
Me too. That one was definitely weird :)
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I loved the cartoon Balrog, mind. I found it far more frightening than the Peter Jackson computer-generated one.
But then I was a tiny tot when I saw the first one. That may have something to do with it. :)
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...really don't like John Howe...
Sorry! Brainfart - I wrote Howe but meant Naismith. Howe I like, Naismith not so much.
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Gee, that's pretty close to describing orcs (minus the horsemanship). I have always pictured the "Easterlings" as Huns (in the original meaning of the word). But Jordanes really goes to town here.
Well, I guess Tolkien did indeed leave out most details, yet he somehow makes us believe we know what the various cultures look like. That's really what makes reading his books so fascinating. I basically agree with the idea that Middle-Earth is closer to early medieval times (pre 1000AD) than later periods. Somehow I never managed to get this Roman Empire = Gondor notion. I've always pictured the Dunedain to be more mid to north European (maybe because of this grey eyed, fair-skinned description or maybe because Arnor was a northern country). However, the way the culture is described I agree that the Roman heritage sounds reasonable.
The scant descriptions of Gondorian gear are closer to Carolingian outfits than Roman ones - and winged helmets is even more a northern thing. Certainly they're not dressed in Caligae and Lorica with Gallic helmets, but there a dash of the late classical world in there.
I expect you might not be far off by mixing Carolingian dress with some Roman touches. But Byzantine gear wouldn't be too far off either, being a mix of northern European imports, Parthian gear, and old Roman parts.
Wargamers and roleplayers love to put things in boxes, don't they? :) All over the internet you see Gondor is this, Rohan is that, based on not much at all really. Tolkien never really much went in for describing what things looked like in any detail. He left huge visual gaps which people fill with their own imagination (hence all the (angry) disagreement, I guess).
So Tolkien is set in the Dark Ages? Yet there is a small part of Middle Earth where they have pubs, tobacco, waistcoats with buttons and pockets and gunpowder fireworks. Sounds more like 18th Century England to me. ;)
Well, the Shire is very much a sort of idealized memory of a childhood England that never was - by Tolkien's own admission.
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The scant descriptions of Gondorian gear are closer to Carolingian outfits than Roman ones - and winged helmets is even more a northern thing.
There is little evidence that winged or horned helmets were used in any other function than ceremonial in the ancient age. Vikings adorned their helmets no more with that than they did with bananas.
Even in Roman times they seem to have been a bit of a theatrical attribute, something to clad images of Gods and exotic persons with.
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I watched the Bakshi movie before reading the books... But since then I've grown beyond said movie, though I do have a very soft spot for it. The balrog was cool, the black riders extremely cool (before shedding their cloaks, after that they look more like terminators on an acid trip), Gollum was world class. It's little wonder that PJ paid tribute to these scenes and designs.
I admit Boromir was a complete failure in Bakshi's movie, but it took me some time to get over that. Until I saw Sean Bean I had actually never developed a clear picture of Boromir in my mind. And I still believe that Sean Bean does not fit the physical description of a Dunadan. However, his acting skills and the way he was presented by PJ really made me overlook that little grievance. Probably the most fascinating character in the movie.
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There is little evidence that winged or horned helmets were used in any other function than ceremonial in the ancient age. Vikings adorned their helmets no more with that than they did with bananas.
Even in Roman times they seem to have been a bit of a theatrical attribute, something to clad images of Gods and exotic persons with.
This is absolutely correct. Winged helmets were not really something worn in battle! I was only pointing out that regionally, they were more of a northern thing than a southern.
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In any case, I decided this week that my Dunlendings are going to be Crusader Miniatures' byzantine Varangians in full armour. I think they should fit well with the Grenadier half-orcs/uruk hai I posted before.
I've been searching for the right miniatures to represent Dunlendings for years and all the ancient germans, picts and irish just were missing something.
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And I'm with you Richard (and Lars). Could not have said it better myself ;) Tolkien was creating a myth cycle based on either history or the myths of other countries,for instance The Children of Hurin is in some ways a retelling of the Kalevala.
So Elves do not have pointy ears,nor in my mind do they use pseudo katanas/naginatas. And if you read some early works Elves sometimes wore beards (Beleg Strongbow),Cirdan certainly did. As for Legolas being blonde phhhhth!
And the best miniature ranges for Elves? Well I go for Red Box Games,however Tre needs to sculpt a few more chaps. Thunderbolt Mountain do a couple of nice minis,they can be a little flouncy...... lol
We have letter speaking about how Hobbits look like:
I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of 'fairy' rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).
Tolkien letter #27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company (March or April 1938)
Taking this quote in consideration, I'd say Elvish ears are pointy ('elvish' meaning here as 'those of the Elves', which therefore should also be pointy as Hobbit's).
Anyway I'd love to see a quote proving me wrong instead of what people think/like. If you are nerdy enough, that is ;D
About immortal Orcs of Maiar origin:
[footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.
History of Middle-Earth vol. X - Morgoth's Ring
I know it's only a possibility, but not too far-fetched.
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In any case, I decided this week that my Dunlendings are going to be Crusader Miniatures' byzantine Varangians in full armour. I think they should fit well with the Grenadier half-orcs/uruk hai I posted before.
I've been searching for the right miniatures to represent Dunlendings for years and all the ancient germans, picts and irish just were missing something.
Well, I doubt they have the technical level for such armours. But since you are going to mix them with Half-orcs, I assume they're for Saruman's army. So it would be ok they have access to some sophisticated heavy armour beyond the reach of the "average" Dunlendings.
So far I think (just my personal opinion) than they're close to Picts than to Celts in look and culture.
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We have letter speaking about how Hobbits look like:
Taking this quote in consideration, I'd say Elvish ears are pointy ('elvish' meaning here as 'those of the Elves', which therefore should also be pointy as Hobbit's).
Anyway I'd love to see a quote proving me wrong instead of what people think/like. If you are nerdy enough, that is ;D
About immortal Orcs of Maiar origin:
I know it's only a possibility, but not too far-fetched.
'Letters' is a very interesting book, in which you also can read, in the post-LotR portion if I remember correctly, that dwarf women had beards. Oh, that someone would make something out of that and a set of Hasslefrees for LPL6R10. ::)
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Well, I doubt they have the technical level for such armours. But since you are going to mix them with Half-orcs, I assume they're for Saruman's army. So it would be ok they have access to some sophisticated heavy armour beyond the reach of the "average" Dunlendings.
So far I think (just my personal opinion) than they're close to Picts than to Celts in look and culture.
I'm fairly certain that they're described somewhere as almost exactly that. Essentially barbarous peoples who have gradually absorbed some Rohirrim customs and technology on the borders, but largely tribal or clannish. Picts/Celts is apt (especially since the Rohirrim are based partially on old English/Saxon types, with some horse-lovin' mixed in).
For whatever it's worth, most artists have also depicted Dunlendings as Pictish or Celtic as well.
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Exactly that. Possibly West Wind Picts might work. I don't like the BTD and Foundry ones.
Indeed, the armoured Varangians would represent an elite unit armed by Saruman, and the style of the sculpts is close enough to Copplestone's Half Orcs.
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'A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown)'.
Tolkien letter #27 To the Houghton Mifflin Company (March or April 1938)
Taking this quote in consideration, I'd say Elvish ears are pointy ('elvish' meaning here as 'those of the Elves', which therefore should also be pointy as Hobbit's).
Hmmm. Not convinced I'm afraid.
I don't know for certain of course - then again, nor does anyone else - what Tolkien meant by this.
But my guess would be that when he talks about pointy ears being 'elvish' (note his inverted commas), he's referring to the popular image of elves, pixies and sprites in early C20th children's literature, where they are invariably portrayed as pointy-eared little imps. Hence the reference to 'fairy rabbits' too.
He's saying that hobbits might have a hint of pixie-ness about the ears - but they should not to be thought of as diminutive fairies from the bottom of the garden...
I don't think he is talking here about his own concept of elves as a kind of higher race of beautiful, human-sized, human-looking immortals.
More akin to angels I suppose... (only sans wings ;))
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Hmmm. Not convinced I'm afraid.
I don't know for certain of course - then again, nor does anyone else - what Tolkien meant by this.
But my guess would be that when he talks about pointy ears being 'elvish' (note his inverted commas), he's referring to the popular image of elves, pixies and sprites in early C20th children's literature, where they are invariably portrayed as pointy-eared little imps. Hence the reference to 'fairy rabbits' too.
He's saying that hobbits might have a hint of pixie-ness about the ears - but they should not to be thought of as diminutive fairies from the bottom of the garden...
I don't think he is talking here about his own concept of elves as a kind of higher race of beautiful, human-sized, human-looking immortals.
More akin to angels I suppose... (only sans wings ;))
That would be my take on the matter as well. I admit I'm just too lazy to really go looking for any texts now. And honmestly, the good Professor did contradict himself once in a while, especially when he started to give earlier concepts a work-over. That leaves us to a certain way free to choose our picture. The Silmarillion seems to be the text Tolkien's son, who was "deep in [his father's] council" decided to come closest to the original idea. However, as various other published texts now prove, that is only one possible interpretation of the world.
In the end we are of course free to let our own imagination roam. If I am somewhat of a nerd when it comes to what is "Tolkienesc" and what isn't, shouldn't keep others from having a completely different approach. Though I do admit that the Warhammer-style is about as far away from what I have in mind when thinking of Middle-Earth. And still: No pointy ears for elves! :D
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If I am somewhat of a nerd when it comes to what is "Tolkienesc" and what isn't [...]
It's not like you're the only one, on this forum or beyond! :)
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As much as I'm not really a fan of the movies, I think they treated the issue of Elvish ears well with a sort of compromise: They were pointed, but in a very reduced way that was barely different than human ears.
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As much as I'm not really a fan of the movies, I think they treated the issue of Elvish ears well with a sort of compromise: They were pointed, but in a very reduced way that was barely different than human ears.
I agree with that. The ears could have been so much worse. And I guess in movies you need the ears to show the difference from humans as the actors are really humans (well, I'm not sure about Liv Taylor but that's a different story...).
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Time I updated this thread......With Elves!
Although (yet again) have distinct views on how Elves are dressed and arrayed for battle ,what do you think?
For me high Elves (the Noldor) would have the look of Norman knights with an distinct Celtic cast about them,Sindarin Elves would be similar,perhaps a little less heavily armoured and more woodsie(sic). It always strikes me in Tolkiens works where it is described what weapons Elves use; spears,long swords(not the pseudo Japanese weapons in the films), bows (remember they had horse archers,in the First Age anyway,no doubt later on too) and axes! Not usually depicted on minis (though I have some old Citadel sculpts with 'Dane axes').
This is perhaps a moot point as I have selected my Elves for round 5 (Redbox Games).So opinions,thoughts,why are Elves often depicted in metal (and plastic form) as being a bit naff?
Cheers
Wolfie
PS DH love the new avatar ;)
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Thx, Blackwolf... me at the tender age 25 as a a student at the University of Wisconsin... :D
To your question: looking at the texts about the First Age I notice how much more powerful and threatening the Elves and particularly the Lords of the Noldor are described. Somewhere we can read about Feanor and his sons having cruel spears, swords and axes. The word cruel does give us a hint that besides looking fair the weapons and armor of these people definetely weren't toys or some ornamental weapons but used to smash, maim, cut and pierce their enemies.
I am heavily influenced by an old book by David Day called "A Tolkien Bestiary". In there you can find drawings and scetches of Elves and in armor they actually do look a lot like old Norman Knights (hehe and No pointy ears!). That is basically how I picture them in battle. The problem I see is more the general tendency of miniature makers to overdo weapons. Battleaxes very often are so big that they are actually better for smashing things to a pulp rather than cutting someone. And that to me seems to be an important issue: how to translate the word "cruel weapon" into a fitting model on a miniature.
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I had that book too,great John Blanche and Ian Miller illustrations. And yes I agree,they need to be sculpted as more 'noble',and can you sculpt hubris (the Noldor). When I think of Thingol,I always think of King Lear...
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A Tolkien Bestiary is a wonderful book. Just found a trade size paperback at Barnes and Noble for $10. Beautiful...
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it's not that I'm a Copplestone fanboy ::) but these are very nice high elves:
(http://www.terrainwarehouse.co.uk/images/products/new/868.jpg)
(http://www.terrainwarehouse.co.uk/images/products/large/869.jpg)
http://www.terrainwarehouse.co.uk/category.aspx?CategoryID=157
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They come indeed fairly close to what I have in mind. Unfortunately the poses are a little too statuesc. But the style seems to be right.
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I am quite partial to the look of these elves from Thunderbolt:
Silvan/Sinda:
(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/elves/8044F&M.jpg)
The Highelf, not as much, but OK:
(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/highElves/8511.jpg)