Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Poiter50 on 04 February 2012, 03:57:45 AM
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So if the Vikings used their longships to get to merry Old England, what did the Saxons use for their forays and arrivals as mercenaries to the Sub Roman Britains?
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Apparently, there isn't evidence of sails being used so oar power then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nydam_Mose
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Thanks, Ragnar, interesting read.
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Also, the Sutton Hoo ship seems to be a very similar boat so shows a continuation of use of the style for several more centuries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton_Hoo
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I thought the Saxon ships were shorter and wider than the Viking ones but still had the use of sails?
cheers
James
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I am no expert.
Shorter and wider: possibly.
Regarding sails, I am sure I was reading a discussion recently that incuded a statement that there have not been any masts or fish (? the thing that holds the mast up) found in this context. Certainly looking at the Nydam Mose boat again it doesn't look like there was anything to support a mast.
Happy to be shown otherwise.
Ragnar.
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Regarding sails again:
http://news.err.ee/culture/00225c4a-581e-4ee0-b87c-6fda799a5476
"It is thought that sails were first introduced in the North Sea and Baltic Sea region at about 700 A.D., which is the conventional date. Our ship dates from the year 750. The ship from the year 700 was from the North Sea region, near Norway. However, here in the Baltic Sea region, this is without a doubt the oldest sailing ship that has been found," said Peets.
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Have no idea about sails or not, but found this, which is interesting:
http://www.trevorbloom.com/2010/09/did-anglo-saxon-ships-have-sails/
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Interesting stuff :)
cheers
James
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Hmm, the issue is clouded.
View this book and do a search on sails. Page 71 says that Sidonius Apollinaris C473 wrote, apparently in reference to the Saxons:
"Moreover, when ready to unfurl their sails for the voyage home from the continent and to lift their gripping anchors from enemy waters"
Still no archeological for, although written evidence for.
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It might be erronious to ask the questions "did migration period Saxon ships have sails?"
The migration period invasion of the Isles included Angles, Saxons and Jutes, each with cultural and naval architectural differences. These tribes, referred to as the 'barbarian hordes', pushed back by the Romans in their expansion northward were subsumed into the Empire and there is plenty of solid evidence that there was an absorption of culture in both directions with the northern tribes taking on Roman technology and the Romans taking on the various Auxillia.
It would not therefore be too much of a stretch to presume that the knowledge of sail craft was taken by the Saxons (if not already there) and used later in their own movements across the seas.
Secondly, I re-enact the Saxon period and have rowed our societys' longships in the Thames Estuary and on lakes and rivers. I believe it would not be possible to row a ship across the North Sea in anything but the calmest weather, making the use of a sail all but essential for the types of journeys required for a full cultural migration.
My two bits.
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I just realised that reading my last post would not have made a lot of sense as I left out a crucial bit.
Where I said "View this book..." I meant the book "Dark age naval power"
If you find this book in Google Books, then look for page 71, this is where the Sidonius Apollinarius quote is located.
Apologies for the confusion.
The circumstantial evidence for early Saxon sails seems strong but again, the archeological evidence is lacking.
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This is a pic from a re-enactment I saw at Flag Fen (near Peterborough, UK) a couple of years ago. 'Britannia' did an Arthurian re-enactment and the 'Saxons' sailed down the river to take on the local Romano-Britons. While this probably isn't meant to represent a sea-crossing vessel, I though it might be interesting for you... The craft was fairly stable, even when turning about to avoid British 'archers' on the shore...
(http://i943.photobucket.com/albums/ad276/guitarheroandy/Arthurians/DSCF4834.jpg)
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But isn't that a currach, which is an Irish boat?
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Well, yes. Picts and Irish used them for sure. I don't know whether Saxons ever did, but this is what the re-enactors used. They were really rather proud of it - they had built it themselves, albeit with specialist assistance, I believe.
I can't imagine sea-going Saxon/Angle/Jutish boats not having sails through... If you can put a sail in something like the one in the picture, surely you'd put a sail in a wooden sea-going craft?
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Well, yes. Picts and Irish used them for sure. I don't know whether Saxons ever did, but this is what the re-enactors used. They were really rather proud of it - they had built it themselves, albeit with specialist assistance, I believe.
I can't imagine sea-going Saxon/Angle/Jutish boats not having sails through... If you can put a sail in something like the one in the picture, surely you'd put a sail in a wooden sea-going craft?
Absolutely. One thing I have learned in this discussion is that the issue is unclear and confusing, like a lot of dark age stuff. So, I now think that sails are possible and even logical for for 4th-5th century Germanics, but again, why didn't the Nydam boat have anywhere for the mast to be mounted?
BTW I believe the thinking on the Nydam find is that raiders landed and attacked, they were defeated and their boat and weapons were thrown into the bog as thanks to the gods, so I am guessing the raiders came from the sea.
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So if the Vikings used their longships to get to merry Old England, what did the Saxons use for their forays and arrivals as mercenaries to the Sub Roman Britains?
Clearly they used Roman Sub Marinus ;D
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Thought I'd throw in my tuppence worth...
There is little to no evidence of sails in the 'north' before the 7th century even though sails were in evidence around the Med. and further afield in Arabia/China during this period (and obviously much earlier). I don't think it unreasonable to assume that northern Europeans would have seen these in action what with all of the trading that was taking place around this period. That said, Med. trading collapsed in the 700s with the rise of Islam and the disruption that brought to trading routes, but the rise of European emporia succeeded this fall in Med. trading, and was facilitated by shipping. Could this have been the cause of northern ships adopting sails so they could take over the trading functions lost from the Med. thus ensuring the supply o fthose sought after luxury goods?
Early written evidence includes Alfred the Great's writing down of the stories of Othere and Wulfstan in the 870s/80s and a variety of tax codes, legislation and regulations that were written down that included details of shipping. The archaeology for 'northern' boats like Sutton Hoo and Kvalsund suggest they were too round bottomed to be able to tack successfully when under sail and were more suited to movement under oar power. Other evidence for shipping includes; traces of structures, behaviour (dumps) and distribution of goods (Anglo-Saxon coinage). However none of this ephemeral evidence really indicates the presence of sails, only hints at them.
Fascinating subject; thanks for raising it.