Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Future Wars => Topic started by: tnjrp on 14 February 2012, 11:24:31 AM
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Project Pandora: Grim Cargo is Mantic's up-and-coming sci-fi board game add-on to their Warpath line. The release date is sometime in April but this week is the big pre-release advertising week for the said product - apparently culminating with the revelation of the bery bery sekret "8th race" on Friday the 17th.
Here's the shop section for PP:
http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Project-Pandora.html
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Well, it's going to be difficult to work out what the 8th race is inspired by ;)
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ehmm... who are the other seven ?
What am I missing, they have the not-spacedwarfs, not-spaceork and the not-imperialguards ?
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I liked both Dwarf King’s Hold games and I’m looking forward to the new not-Space Hulk, but Mantic’s amateurish attempts at hype are annoying. I’ll just tune in to the blog on Friday and see what their up to.
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ehmm... who are the other seven ?
What am I missing, they have the not-spacedwarfs, not-spaceork and the not-imperialguards ?
I'd assume it's a reference to GW's armies, if you list all the different marines as human then there are 7 different races.
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ehmm... who are the other seven ?
They have been listed on Mantic's site at one time (not sure if they are there now) and would be Orxs, Forgefathers, Zz'or, Asterians, Corporation, Rebs and The Plague. Stricly speaking I don't think the last two or three are "races" in the conventional (read GW) sense but all the same those are it. Only Orxs and Ffs are available ATM of course.
It's mildy interesting that there are equal numbers of Corporation and assumed-but-not-officially-confirmed "Space Skaven" in the Pandora box. Of course C-Marines are nowhere near as tough per trooper in Wp as Space Marines are in Wh40k but still it might mean the rat boyz aren't a horde type army one might expect them to be.
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Haven't received an official confirmation newletter from Mantic yet but since they've apparently given Beast of War an exclusive to break the news I think that's close enough for comfort:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/project-pandora/corporation-8th-race-project-pandora/
Not my cuppa but quite a few people seem excited about "Skaven in Space" so I could envision the Veer-Myn (or however it is spelled) giving staunch competition to Forgefathers in the hearts of the space fantasy playing crowd.
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I always thought that "race" was a poor descriptive for a wargame. Faction suits better. That way , you don't get a confusion between "Elves" and "Evil Elves"
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I'm ok with scavenger rat-men in space (not really for or against the concept), but the sculpts shown hue too close to the GW fantasy skaven for my tastes. I'd like to see more guns and armor, less rags, leather and daggers.
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I got the 8th race e-mail today and I was both impressed and dissapointed. Impressed by the face that it's Space Skaven, dissapointed by the same fact. Way I see it is that sooner or later Mantic will be getting a little call from the intellectual properties chapter of Space Marines, by which I mean GW's legal team.
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Plus GW hasn't really done space 'skaven' (as yet).
Duncan
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I got the 8th race e-mail today and I was both impressed and dissapointed. Impressed by the face that it's Space Skaven, dissapointed by the same fact. Way I see it is that sooner or later Mantic will be getting a little call from the intellectual properties chapter of Space Marines, by which I mean GW's legal team.
I imagine that if GW was going to atempt to shut down Mantic they would have done it long before the Veer-Myn. To be clear, I think the two Veer-Myn scuplts shown are too close to fantasy skaven for my aesthetic tastes, not for copyright reasons.
However the thought has crossed my mind that Mantic probably wants to have a visual link with GW's fantasy Skaven to maybe sell some Veer-Myn as Skaven proxies.
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The 9th "race" will be Dolmansaxlil Shoe Troopers.
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do you think the valuable cargo might be shoes? Seems half the races in mantics universe have not grasped the concept of how to make their own so I can see shoes being one of the more valuable items the corperations produce
LOL.
Anyway, here's Mantic blog on the background of the Veer-Myn (+ the same footwear-abhorring greens again):
http://www.manticblog.com/?p=5397
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Needz moar Schollz .
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I must admit that I was largly dissapointed with those Veer-myn, I was hoping on the 8th race being not-Tyranids (or some other bug).
I see no problems however with copying GW-stuff since a/they've been doing it themselves and b/they cover a bit all so it's a nigh on impossible to come up with something new, one can only make so many versions of a laserrifle armed bloke in space.
It all boils down to gamesystems in my opinion, esteatics are a personal thing and therefore irrelevant in a game as a whole (eg I play Deamons of Chaos, Nurgle, but I don't like the GW Plaguebearers so Andy Foster from Heresy Miniatures gets a regular order from me for his Blights)
Will I buy this game? Not likely, a game is simply no good if you don't have an opponent to play against and I seriously lack in those both at home and the gamingclub.
I gave Warpath a try once and I must admit I liked it a lot, unfortunatly there was only a minor intrest for it at our good old TSoA.
Armies of Arcana went down the same alley with us too you know, a lack of intrest due to the fact that WFB and 40K are still dominant gamingsystems.
And that's why I don't see anything wrong with Mantic riding on the back of it's bigger 'cousin' because, let's admit, GW's prices for their products are way to high and if I can bulk out my armies with some other company's models then that's just fine, they have to make themselves known in some way anyhow.
I personally like their 'amateurish' way of promoting stuff, at least it's relaxed and fun and not the 'Hysterical American BUY!BUY!BUY!!!' style of GW (Dreadfleet? Limited? Whatever...)
In short: Games Workshop's a sinking ship and their captains shouldn't be too surprised that the sharks are now jumping up to bite them in the ass, ugly as they might be.
Or maybe I will buy it anyway, it should be a blast making modular spacecraft corridors and then inviting some friends over to play that thing in the evening... with most of the lights out.... oh dear :D
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The old demonblade line had rats with guns.
Megaminis sell those figures now, HERE (http://freeboardgamesnow.com/sciencefictionbloodbrothers.aspx). They are a bit more post-apocalyptic looking than spacefaring I reckon. Quite nice figures though.
I must admit that I was largly dissapointed with those Veer-myn, I was hoping on the 8th race being not-Tyranids (or some other bug).
Mantic have bugs (called the Z'zzor or something goofy like that) in the pipeline. If Project Pandora sells in a similar fashion to Dwarf Kings Hold then a subsequent add-on Pandora set is highly likely to have bugs in it I reckon.
(http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Unknown-300x247.jpg)
I am indifferent to spacefaring ratmen, but I was disappointed that the above guy in particular looks so much like a fantasy skaven equipped with some sort of warpstone gas weapon or something, like a globadier.
I dont really care if they wear shoes or not, but I was hoping that the Veermyn would look a little more like more Flash Gordon space ratmen than a race of space hobos. Ho hum.
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Indeed the upcoming Zz'or are the Mantic "bug race". Maybe they'll surprise us and make those more fantasy-oriented than the 'Nids :P
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On the completely unrelated subject of GW cease & desists, doesn't anyone else think that everybody and their uncle is doing pretty visible sales of rather-closely-similar-in-style-to Wh40k stuff these days? Especially in Poland but there are some Brits doing it even IIRC. Has GW lost some IP realated lawsuit someplace or what has caused this new boldness?
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On the completely unrelated subject of GW cease & desists, doesn't anyone else think that everybody and their uncle is doing pretty visible sales of rather-closely-similar-in-style-to Wh40k stuff these days? Especially in Poland but there are some Brits doing it even IIRC. Has GW lost some IP realated lawsuit someplace or what has caused this new boldness?
Perhaps rather then more companies doing so its more of an awareness thing with internet marketing being easier and word of mouth trough modern media having an all time high. And then if one dares show is Not-gw thing and not get bashed with the CaD more companies dare show their stuff a little more publicly?
Mantic does have balls of steel when it comes to this tough, IIRC they are less then an hour away from GW HQ.
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Look like they'd be great for Post-Apoc mutants.
Dunno about anything else though, wouldn't want them in my sci fi stuff.
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The 9th "race" will be Dolmansaxlil Shoe Troopers.
"I was going to have them shot, but now I'm going take them back to my office and like them."
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All mantics stuff is poo!
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All mantics stuff is poo!
And you have every right to not like them, you could express it a bit more respectfully though.
But if you fancy yourself a better sculptor then the ones they have then feel free to have a go at it, I wont stop you.
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I could express it more respectfully, but I choose not too, basically a wanna be gw company with poor figures, detail is very shallow, they maybe cheaper than gw but the quality isn't there, I have some mantic stuff and it doesn't do anything for me, as for me sculpting I'm man enough to admit I can't!
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I could express it more respectfully, but I choose not too, basically a wanna be gw company with poor figures, detail is very shallow, they maybe cheaper than gw but the quality isn't there, I have some mantic stuff and it doesn't do anything for me, as for me sculpting I'm man enough to admit I can't!
In that case the old saying 'if you don't have antything nice to say, then shut up' should fit you like a glove.
If you expect a starting company to have the same level of detail as GW at cheaper prices then the only thing shallow here is your sence of realism.
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Why can't a new company have the same level of quality as gw? It can be done, I'm nota fan of everything gw does but the quality is there, your been a bit bitchy about it all I'm free to express an opinion, sorry if it doesn't agree with yours! I hardly think 'poo' is a harsh comment! As for the mantic stuff I have I've already given it away, I had the new space ork sprue and a few fantasy bits,
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the one thing that shits me about manitc guns is in their dark future all firearms are made by a company that had its roots in plumbing and pipe equipment manufacture who hired a design team consisting of drunken gibbons with a self harm fetish. At least it looks that way going on these greens and my Orx. Worst guns ever!
I think they had some background fluff that said all the weapons were based on dwarf designs, and that the Corporation were basically an evil empire expanding across the universe but that they recognised the advanced dwarf engineering so bought guns etc from them. The Corporation then supplied (older models) of guns to orcs they had recruited as mercenaries.
Something like that anyway.
So that's their excuse for everyone having similar designs of weaponry.
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Why can't a new company have the same level of quality as gw? It can be done, I'm nota fan of everything gw does but the quality is there, your been a bit bitchy about it all I'm free to express an opinion, sorry if it doesn't agree with yours! I hardly think 'poo' is a harsh comment! As for the mantic stuff I have I've already given it away, I had the new space ork sprue and a few fantasy bits,
The undead were quite reasonable looking figures.
The elves are very slim, but the elf artillery works well for me as either retro si-fi or as VSF inventions.
As for quality.
How do you define it?
I haven't seen any miscast figures or excessive flash.
Unlike the newer resin pieces from GW.
And as for duff designs, there are a few LoTR figures that have belts etc, on the front half of the figure but not on the back.
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I received an ork sprue and the details there but not there if you get me, I'm not a fan of plastics to be fair, but perry miniatures have raised the bar, but I still think gw make the best sci fi plastics, I know fine cast is crap and I wouldn't pay the money they charge for them either, just not a fan of mantic at all and I was really looking forward to seeing how their sci fi range panned out, what are their games like?
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In that case the old saying 'if you don't have antything nice to say, then shut up' should fit you like a glove.
If you expect a starting company to have the same level of detail as GW at cheaper prices then the only thing shallow here is your sence of realism.
My problem with them is their utter lack of imagination and shameless cashing in on GW i.p. I mean, the first unique race they've done is... Skaven, IN SPACE! I've had some of their stuff in the past and it is just a poor alone of GW stuff, with the only advantage being cheap. Guess what, I don't buy bargain bucket food either. Mantic would be fine if they didn't have such a cynical copy-GW policy. They haven't even attempted to change the elf and dark elf aesthetic!
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They haven't even attempted to change the elf and dark elf aesthetic!
Didn't the lef/dark elf issue come in with TSR before GW were in existence?
As for GW cloning, it's probably just an economic fact of life for UK sales.
The only stuff that has had high volume sales for the past few years has been GW.
Personally I liked Starshop Troopers, but Mongoose didn't get enough market share to keep production going. The new Mantic Corporation figures will probably join my ST marine forces, possibly as colonial garrisons. I'm hoping that the insect race that's listed on their plans will be suitable to join the bugs.
The space rats look like they may be possibles for VSF, especially the figures with gas masks.
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What are their games like?
Undecided on the fantasy and Sf rules, they are straightforward and easy enough to play, but I like Chipco Fantasy 3rd and Laserburn.
On the plus side, the fantasy rules are (were?) available as a free PDF download so you don't need a mortgage to try them out.
But the Dwarf King's Hold boardgames are a different issue. Like those - slightly reminiscent of 1st edition Space Hulk before they started adding on the expansions and campaign book etc. Prefer the Dead Rising one, but that's mainly because I like the undead figures and don't really like the orcs, rules play quite well, fairly balanced but challenging, so hoping the new game might be Dwarf King's in Space.
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Liking/not liking a company's stuff is fine but can we keep the rebuttals to the views and not the authors please.
I find Mantic's rules hideous in the extreme but they are free so anyone can suck them and see.
I might buy some space rats but generally the GW derivative stuff leaves me cold too. On a positive note, Mantic manage to actually produce their stuff and sell it which certain other plastic 'manufacturers' could learn from.
Good luck to them I say.
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I find Mantic's rules hideous in the extreme but they are free so anyone can suck them and see.
Not sure that I would go so far as hideous.
Abstract, perhaps even bizarre. Reminiscent of something quite old (thinking Dover Patrol era but I can't quite remember what) quite boardgame-ish in a sense. Seem very formulaic. But the important thing is, being free everyone can decide for themselves without any need for investment, apart from printing. Which I do like, even if I don't like the rules. I also like other companies who do extracts and free samples or "Lite" sets.
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I've had a lot of interest in Mantic stuff at work from players of Warhammer Fantasy, with the new edition requiring a huge amount of figures, Mantic is holding an appeal for rounding out the rank-and-file.
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Not sure that I would go so far as hideous
Me neither, but OTOH I would be very hard pressed to find anything nice to say about them either so I probably should STFU then :P
I also like other companies who do extracts and free samples or "Lite" sets.
Which would be almost everybody these days, of course. I'm quite sure it does pay to make the first fix free, but I'm not quite so sure it makes sense to spend time concocting that fix in the 1st place. Probably does since vast majority of miniature companies do offer some kind of rules with their minis.
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My problem with them is their utter lack of imagination and shameless cashing in on GW i.p. I mean, the first unique race they've done is... Skaven, IN SPACE! I've had some of their stuff in the past and it is just a poor alone of GW stuff, with the only advantage being cheap. Guess what, I don't buy bargain bucket food either. Mantic would be fine if they didn't have such a cynical copy-GW policy. They haven't even attempted to change the elf and dark elf aesthetic!
They haven't exactly been re-inventing the fantasy and Sci-Fi genre either: Tolkien, Lucas, Verne, Poe and numerous others have given them the idea.
And those have been digging in myths and folklore the world over.
As I've said before, you can only make so many versions of something before they start to look alike so why try to hide that wich is obvious.
Don't get me wrong, the only models I do like from Mantic are the Undead, Corporation and the Elves.
Both Dwarfraces aren't my cup of tea in any way and the same thing goes for the Orcs and the Marauders.
I'm no fan of the Veer-Myn just in the way as I'm no fan of Skaven either.
I've considered the Forge Fathers but decided against them since Warpath isn't supported in our gamingclub, I can't find a good substitute for them in 40K and I don't like 40K all that much to begin with.
You're right, their mayor advantage is their prices when you take the wealth of variety in consideration that GW gives you.
But why cram so many bits in a sprue that you don't really need, they only bulge out your bitsbox, end up in the bin later and when you got all your models ranked up on the table you're to busy rolling dice and outsmarting the bloke on the other side to pay attention to details on models.
I don't like all that Mantic tries to sell me but I can appreciate their effort to present me with a cheap alternative.
As for them riding on the back of GW... Games Workshop started out as a mailorder company that sold models and rules for Dungeons and Dragons for years before they started cooking up their own things, you've got to start somewhere and if you can do a bit of shameless looting then that's fine and when you can rise above your 'teacher' afterwards then that's great as long as you don't forget where you came from like in GW's case, they wanted a cheap alternative for D&D too and now charge you a king's ransom for a box or blister.
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I think that to an extent the argument 'Mantic rip of GW' is pretty invalid.
What strikes me is it appears many gamers are quite happy to purchase models which are EXACT COPIES of GW stuff from say Avatars of War, and only so much as mutter at how similar/the same it looks.
However when Mantic rears its head, people are cursing at them how they are rip offs of GW.
I personally think people would complain less if they were exact copies!
I would also argue against Patricks point over that things will eventually be 'the same'. I agree fantasy is pretty limited depending on what direction you look at it from, but I'd argue that its rather the buyers who are to blame more then the companies. Most gamers have a weird drawback where they will want something 'different' for differences sake, but will then not purchase it when its made and instead use their money to purchase the same old miniatures with a similar look to another range whilst bitterly complaining about how un-imaginative the business is.
If Mantic created anything different they'd probably be bust by now. The only company I know of that had popularity and was unique and squandered it was Rackham. But look at whats happened to say 'Dwarf Tales' etc, fantastic miniatures, very different by comparison, but they have gone bust! Probably due to folks to afraid of them being outside the mainstream.
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I think that to an extent the argument 'Mantic rip of GW' is pretty invalid.
What strikes me is it appears many gamers are quite happy to purchase models which are EXACT COPIES of GW stuff from say Avatars of War, and only so much as mutter at how similar/the same it looks.
However when Mantic rears its head, people are cursing at them how they are rip offs of GW.
I think it's a fair argument. To be honest, with the exception of space dwarves and space skaven, Mantic seem to be going for a 1:1 match with GW regarding army construction etc. While I appreciate financial realities, it just makes me sad that Mantic - originally advertised as a major effort to really shake up the miniature gaming world - is turning out to be nothing more than a company pushing out disappointingly mediocre, unoriginal not-WHFB and not-40K models. As far as business plans go, "like GW, just cheaper" is probably sound. From a creative industry viewpoint, well...
Avatars of War - in my view they're not even unoriginal, but simply straight conceptual and stylistical copies. Let's not even go there :D
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@ Brummie: You can still get Dwarf Wars from West Wind :)
I love Avatars of War, I've got that Herald of Pestilence in my Nurgle army and they're bringing out a range of Chaos Warriors to match the ones by GW only slightly cheaper, same thing goes for their Dwarf berzerkers btw.
With 'the same' I'd mean more in the way of: an orc armed with an axe or sword or club will still be an orc with a handweapon, whoever sculpted him and whatever brand you like.
GW has set a trend here that they make some very nice orcs and have inspired lot's of others to make funny bits (eg. Micro Arts Studio) to convert them, who in turn take a profit out of GW but I hear no complaints here just as you point out with the AoW minis.
Maybe I'm wrong but a lot of people around the globe gladly grumble and spit on Games Workshop and their pricing policy but lash out at those who come out with cheap lookalikes of 'lesser quality' to said gamer's benefice.
You're also right in the fact that gamers seem to have a 'limited creativity' ,no offence, wich seem to come out of fear, sounds nuts but it ain't.
I'll explain: let's get back to that aforementioned orc with handweapon and give him a nice shield, I'll bet that at this point 85% thinks of the 'classic' GW greenskinned orc.
Otherworld Miniatures makes pigfaced orcs, armed in pretty much the same way, get a bunch of those and give them a brown skintone... You'll be explaining and making excuses for yourself more than you're throwing dice to anybody who passes the table, next time you'll think twice before packing up your creative labour of love to a game cause you'll be afraid to repeat an evening like the last time when you fielded them.
I've been there, I've got a dwarf army, using the rules for GW dwarves but I've got mainly Kallistra's Pygmees for miniatures: Witchdoctors= engineers, blowpipes=Thunderers, elephant= cannon, etc....
Twice I took them to a tournament, now they're sitting on a shelve gathering dust.
"Yeah, but you used another brand mate so you can't blame people" I hear some think.
Fair, example 2: Once I bought a reasonable amount of GW's Sisters of Battle, removed or defiled all Imperial iconography and fielded them as the Sisters of Slaanesh Chaos Marines... same problem across the table.
So exit excess creativity and farewell to nice companies like Rackham, I'll remember you with fondness :'(
I can't blame that sculptors the world over make miniatures for the masses that look 'the same' because when they dare to stick their head out of the box somebody will chop it off besides getting sewed by the Big 'Un from Notthingham when their sculpts start to look too much like their stuff.
So it's no surpise an Imperial Guardsman from GW and a Coorporation soldier from Mantic looks largely the same.
I can make a list, if all you people want, of so called 'rip-offs' and it's up to you wich ones deserve a place in your collection despite the cost, just don't call the ones you don't like 'poo' or something because it's rude and childish and doesn't belong on a forum open to an adult level of discution.
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Your problem was probably less to do with using proxies for dwarves and more to do with using miniatures that some people find rather offensive. That and expecting creativity in the tournament sceen.
Mantic have yet to produce any must haves for me but if I was just starting I'd be mighty tempted by their price, a good place to be in this market.
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I don't think those pygmees are THAT offencive, they dont make nasty handsigns as far as I can see lol
I just tought they were funny, luckily most people at our gamingclub are openminded about these things, most of us use proxies the whole time.
I've got in my whole Nurgle Deamons army only 2 kinds of GW models, all the rest comes from somewhere else.
The Nurglings alone are good for 5 different brands, the Plaguebearers are from Heresy, Great Unclean One's an old Rackham mini, etc...
If I were to build a 40K Imperial Guard army I'd defenitly take the Warlord Games Brittish from the Anglo-Zulu wars, Ratlings'd be the Kindred from Hasslefree and the Ogryns from Scibor.
I just buy and paint what I like and if they're cheap AND pretty then so much the better.
The major problem my opponents seemed to have with my 'Dwarves' was that they have no armour even though I've never fielded a single unit as, let's say, Iron Breakers since it didn't fit my view, I wanted to step away from the typical dour Dwarf in heavy armour and to prove that every force can have a funny side.
I've found sollutions to warmachines for them up to the Anvil of Doom and the Gyrocopter and I was about to start a unit of tunnelers under the command of Lara Croft (archeologist, digsite, digging tunnels, tunnelers, see?) but I simply gave up.
I'll see if I can post some pics of them in another tread.
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Mantic has put up some new shots of the space sk..erm Veer-myn on thier blog. Not a greast deal of detail on the pic, but at least their painted now:
(http://www.manticblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Veer-myn-Night-Crawlers-Mantic-Games.jpg)
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Tripped on this review of the game on TMP:
http://www.play-board-games.com/project-pandora-grim-cargo-review/