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Miniatures Adventure => Medieval Adventures => Topic started by: Christian on 07 March 2012, 03:03:31 AM
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Hi all. I'm working on some of the Perry's mercenaries from the late 15th century, and wanted to get some info on the uniform for "the Papal State". On the back of the box you have the red jerkin with the white crossed keys of St. Peter. I have found some examples of banners on the net.
Are there any pictures available for me to see what these troops would have looked like? (the likes of Osprey etc.) Anything to spur the imagination...
My overall project will be a "continuation" of the Grail Quest storyline... if that helps :)
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Surely, the Papal State armies carried own banners but I don't think they had a special uniform. No that I am an expert though. The pope hired troops at need and took what he was able to get, so they could look whatever you want them to. But feel free to bring in the "crossed keys" on the parts, something I would do as well.
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Surely, the Papal State armies carried own banners but I don't think they had a special uniform. No that I am an expert though. The pope hired troops at need and took what he was able to get, so they could look whatever you want them to. But feel free to bring in the "crossed keys" on the parts, something I would do as well.
The army would most likely be lead by a Condotiere, leading his own band of mercenaries as well as any representatives of the Papacy. Other smaller groups of mercenaries would also make up this force which would be payed for by the state.
So, it was not uncommon for captains of such bands to hand out their own livery, though as the Prof. says, there would be no uniform as such.
Darrell.
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I know that Cesare Borgia, as Papal Gonfalioniere ordered livery coats and banners for his own men, on one occasion at least (his visit to France for his wedding) although no colours that I'm aware of, but I'm guessing red and yellow. It's possible that condottiere companies flew Papal banners alongside their own for ease of identification, but a formal uniform I doubt. Militia crossbows from Rome and the Papal cities etc, would most likely wear their city's colours, if they wore any uniform at all, with perhaps again a Papal banner.
It was a very small world and condottieri generally knew who was employed by who as a matter of course, so Papal banners might have been somewhat redundant in any case. Red and Red & White were very common colours for many Italian cities too, so a uniform in those colours wouldn't be that distinguishing in any case. I read somewhere that city supplied 'uniforms' often consisted of just a pair of hose in the appropriate colour(s) in many cases, which given the notorious penny-pinching of some cities at the time, might not be far off the mark.
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I know that Cesare Borgia, as Papal Gonfalioniere ordered livery coats and banners for his own men, on one occasion at least (his visit to France for his wedding) although no colours that I'm aware of, but I'm guessing red and yellow. It's possible that condottiere companies flew Papal banners alongside their own for ease of identification, but a formal uniform I doubt. Militia crossbows from Rome and the Papal cities etc, would most likely wear their city's colours, if they wore any uniform at all, with perhaps again a Papal banner.
It was a very small world and condottieri generally knew who was employed by who as a matter of course, so Papal banners might have been somewhat redundant in any case. Red and Red & White were very common colours for many Italian cities too, so a uniform in those colours wouldn't be that distinguishing in any case. I read somewhere that city supplied 'uniforms' often consisted of just a pair of hose in the appropriate colour(s) in many cases, which given the notorious penny-pinching of some cities at the time, might not be far off the mark.
I agree with most of this however, banners were of great importance in Medieval warfare as was pageantry in general. not just as rallying points but also for control and command and perhaps more importantly to communicate to everyone on the battlefield who you were.
Darrell.
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Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying no banners. You're 100% imo and they were indispensable, what I meant was that each company would have already had its own banners etc, with widely known badges and colours, so an additional Papal banner as well was redundant... The Pope's Gonfanloniere and the Lanze Spezzate hired by him, would probably have one as their unit standard though.
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a WHFB version of a Papal States army :)
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php?topic=26923.0
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They look excellent... but I cannot get my head round this thing for oversized flags and banners. I understand the 'why' but to me they ruin the whole effect, as do really oversized weapons.
:?
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Take a look here:
http://enionline.blogspot.com/search/label/pontifici
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Thanks for the really helpful responses everyone! Those flags certainly are big... maybe a little too big, but certainly eye-catching.
And now I have a bit more confidence in what I'm putting together for this small mercenary force and, more importantly, how I'm going to paint them! o_o
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from Renaissance Armies 1480-1650 by George Gush
Papal flag, about 1548. White (or red) with triple crown in gold, crossed keys of St Peter in gold and silver.
(http://leadadventureforum.com/images/misc/papal01.jpg)
Papal flag used by Swiss at Marignano
(http://leadadventureforum.com/images/misc/papal02.jpg)
Most of the infantry was recruited from the hilly/mountainous parts of Romagna,Umbria and Abruzzo(lands of famous condottieri too).The pope also fielded spanish troops(renowned light infantry), landsknechts(until the Reformation) and urban militia.
Pope Sixtus IV stipulated a contract with Swiss soldiers in 1479, that later gave birth to the famous Swiss Guards.
The Papal State possessed less firearms than other Italian states and, plus had a pretty feeble cavalry tradition
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Thanks for that Alex, they look perfect.
I wouldn't mind fielding some Spaniards!
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For flags also see
http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/medieval/italy_papal.jpg