Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => The Second World War => Topic started by: Anatoli on April 27, 2012, 11:08:33 AM
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My friend Widgren borrowed me his rulebook so that I would write a review about the KGN rules from Warhammer Historical. I should add that he bought this ridicilously expensive book during the Warhammer Historical sale (50% IIRC) last year and only because of that.
Having read the rules and checked the rest of the book content I personally have a hard time of really feeling any enthusiasm over this book.The rules aren't bad, but they are very generic - except for the "battlegroup morale" which I found to be handled in an interesting way. The choice for where to begin playing this game is extremely themed around the Normandy - so if you don't like western front or Normandy you are out of luck. It can be played in other theaters for sure but everything included from army lists to terrain is directly related to Normandy.
Full review on my blog:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2012/04/kampfgruppe-normandy-rules-review.html
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Wargaming%20rules%20review%20pics/SAM_0004.jpg)
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Wargaming%20rules%20review%20pics/SAM_0017.jpg)
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g183/Anatoli_2006/Wargaming%20rules%20review%20pics/SAM_0006.jpg)
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Heya Anatoli
The author stated that when he first wrote these rules, they had the 20mm WWII crowd in mind, since, and I agree with him wholeheartedly, this is, and above all have been the "traditional" WWII wargaming scale. Much more so than any other scale. The 28mm and 15mm via FoW is a much more modern phenomenon in wargaming history, when it comes to being a widespread used scale I would dare to say. I will also state that I prefer 28mm my self, but it wouldent change the fact of the 20mm scale as being the dominant WWII prefered model scale.
There is a large amount of wargamers in Sweden that use 20mm for this, I have lots of old gaming friends that play, and there is a very active group here in Stockholm. So I dont know if I agree with you on that its seldom used here. I will also tell you that I for many years worked at Games Import in Lund and we had a large crowd of gamers using 20mm (both for WWII and Modern).
The old, and perhaps a bit stale, argument for using 20mm since there are so much readily available models to choose from is still valid, but todays 28mm scene is absolutely catching up, at least with the essential vehicles and such.
I also must say that this is propably the most beutiful wargaming rules set I own, and I think that it was worth buying it just for the reading and pretty pictures. Good layout and nice photographs, it looks very professional. If I ever get to actually publishing a set of rules my self, I would strive to get to this level.
The rules them self are a bit to abstract for my taste, but not as bad as Flames of War. However, I am desperatly trying to evade getting back in to 20mm gaming, but Piers et al are surely making this very hard.
I also would like to say that I agree with you on this;
Morale is handled on a unit and battlegroup level. On unit level, morale is taken if a unit of infantry has been reduced below 50%, AT guns take morale tests when they lose crew members, softskinned vehicles upon taking hits while tanks largely ignore unit morale. The effects of a failed morale test can result in units abandoning guns and infantry fleeing off table which leads to the battlegroup morale. Battlegroup morale is handled in a interesting way. It’s based upon your entire force as all units have a certain “morale value” ranging between 0-3 which is printed on a small morale token. When you buy units to your battlegroup you automatically receive a morale token for that unit. So once the game starts you will have a pot of morale tokens from which you draw randomly upon losing a unit in battle. What you have drawn is secret to the opponent, but he should be able to see how many morale tokens you have drawn in total at any given time.
Morale tokens are accumulated if units are destroyed, withdraw in disorderly fashion, HQ units are destroyed, being subjected to air attacks, having enemy capturing objectives and losing objectives. Morale tokens are also drawn when you want to remove suppressed tokens from your units. Each morale token allows you to remove 1D6 suppressed markers on the table.
Your battlegroup morale is broken is all the morale tokens that you have drawn is equal to or greater than your calculated battlegroup morale (which is once again based upon units in your force). I think this is the most interesting aspect of the Kampfgruppe Normandy rules and perhaps the only thing that really stands out to me.
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Well naturally the TMP crowd lashed out at me for this review, as I expected. I tried to explain where I'm coming from to them and hopefully they understand my way of thinking around this review
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=265874
I didn't go into this review with the goal to "hate" or look down upon them (I don't even think it comes off anywhere close to "hateful"). This is simply what I felt when I read the rulebook and compared with other rules that I'm familiar with. I don't have anything against 20mm gamers either, though they do come off as a very angry crowd every time you question that scale - as I wrote in my review, where I live and the guys I play with, and the conventions I've been to only use 15 and 28mm so 20mm would be very unfamiliar to us.
And really what the review comes down to is - "are the rules anything new or special?". And I can't say, based upon what I'm familiar with, that beside the morale system, I can't see anything that would warrant a change from one set of rules to KGN. In fact, the morale system would be great to use as a houserule with any other WW2 set of rules you would be using instead.
There was also critique that I did not play any game using the rules and how dare I write a review having not done so. The rules are so traditional in terms of mechanics and ideas that it is rather easy to imagine how it works and be able to compare to other rules. Would it have been better if I actually played a game of these rules for the review? Yes of course, but then I'm not exactly commenting on the flow of the game in my review which is more based upon what ideas the KGN rules have come up with and offer to gamers.
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the problem is that a review is just that, an opinion and thoughts. Most people do not accept anything critical or understand the true meaning of a review.
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I think a lot of annoyance came from a badly worded paragraph that I wrote - which was intended to point out my comparison between how KGN and other rules were written, but came off as if I compared how KGN was written to how other games play. It was pointed out on TMP and I changed the paragraph to better reflect what I was meaning.
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Hi Anatoli, I posted the same over at TMP! IMO the 20mm croud is sometimes a bit "zealous", do not be worried. 8)
"Well, 1st off, thanks for the review Anatoli. I agree in many points. For me it was helpful. To be honest a do not understand the whole 15, 20 28mm discussion, KGN can be played with all these minis.
I bought KGN in the sale too and was a bit disappointed. The rules were clear and understandable but a bit bland for me after some games. Nothing over dramatic new, but the same has been said about my Victory Decision ruleset. But – there are only so many ways to peel an egg, or?
;-)
Was ticked me a bit off was the sheer size of the book, way too cumbersome to carry around at the gaming table. Yes lots of cool pics, but I really dislike the amount of historical information. Do not get me wrong I have my share of military history books, but I do not want a rulebook cluttered with too many "fluff". We are paying for these pages!
So thanks again Anatoli!"
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the problem is that a review is just that, an opinion and thoughts. Most people do not accept anything critical or understand the true meaning of a review.
Amen to that! 8)
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Anatoli
I enjoyed your review, and even though you havent played the game per se, wich I seriously dont care if you have or not, since you are an obviously intelligent person and have the skill to read english and understand the wordings, and hence can make a summary based on your earlier experience with other game systems. I find it surprising to see so many people screaming and shouting about the fact that you hadnt played it. I have picked up MANY MANY MANY MANY freaking rules sets since I started my journey in the wargaming world, and most of them have been discarded since I too have the ability to read and comprehend the written english language (most rules sets have been in the english language) and can most of the time make an educated guess or assesment if I like the core mechanics or not, and then make my mind up if I want to actually try it out on the gaming table or not. Silly.
However, I seldom, if ever, actually take any part in the discussions on either TMP or the other place of infantile masses, the name eludes me now, buts its a horrible place with little rude snotlings.
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Thanks guys, I kept to the discussion on TMP using my calm reasoning to explain as good as I could. I think my point got across to some of the members in the end. I also found that among the less angry replies which were more concerned about me not having test played the rules there were a bunch of people that agreed with my perception of the rules themselves.
I just find it amazing that such a pretty neutral review got that much attention.
I don't think I slammed any scale in my review, neither was it meant to look down upon 20mm wargaming. I just stated that I don't know anyone who plays it around where I live and have in all honesty only seen 20mm models on a few occasions IRL.
If you take into account the "recent" popularity of 28mm and 15mm wargaming which I guess the younger generation of wargamers are more used to – then KGN kind of misses that audience due to their unfamiliarity with 20mm models and manufacturers. Beside the PSC stuff I've not seen any 20mm WW2 miniatures around on the UK/US/Swedish webstores from which I usually buy my stuff. I've seen a lot of 6mm stuff though. Of course I would find it if I searched the internet, but again the familiarity of people used to 15/28mm ties in with the stores from where they purchase their miniatures.
GW/Warhammer Historical went their own way with this release, and beside the expensive book I think the 20mm scale was the second thing that "scared away" potential customers who may have been used to other scales. Add to that the track record of bad/infrequent support for Warhammer Historical products and you have a game that first and foremost appeals to 20mm gamers who already have everything they need in order to play it and may feel that "finally someone has released a set of rules that target my scale of choice".
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Hey Anatoli .. I read your review here first and then had to run over to TMP to check out the replies. lol.
Yeah, the TMP crowd can get their britches in a knot pretty fast over the smallest of things. A mostly negative crowd I've noticed.
That said, I thought your review, despite not having played a game, was very thoughtful and well thought out. I'd love to be able to write reviews so well for my own website but alas, I'm a poor reviewer. :)
Keep up the good work!
James from iwillnevergrowup.com
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Thanks Rorschach.
My buddy Widgren also shook his head when he saw the replies. He also said that we intended to buy the "I aint been shot mum" rules as he thought they included things that he liked and in which case he would want to try them out with me.
In the meantime I hope to get some time over tomorrow to play an introduction game of 15mm Victory Decision with him.
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So is it better than FoW?
The game reports and photos suggest a more 'realistic' game to me vis-a-vis troop density: no signs of stirrup-to-stirrup tank charges for example.
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abu iskander,
The impression I got is that it could well be better than FoW if you don't like how the FoW rules are written.
For instance there is a lack of "hero rules", min/maxing points and the hundreds of pages of very situational (rarely occurring) rules that FoW includes.
I think FoW does a few things right and offer a special kind of gameplay - good for some and bad for others (it’s very “gamey”). I think KGN offers a different kind of level of detail, while not being as cluttered with rules I suppose. Activating units one at a time, each unit having two actions - as opposed to the "whole army moves, shoots, assaults, morale tests" of Flames of War. And the morale system certainly is interesting.
On the other hand it stays rather simple in core areas if you look for a advanced realistic wargame. I got the impression that the game strayed into different directions the way the rules are written. Some offer tactical choice, others are very simple and very streamlined. And while the game mechanic of rolling for command points at the start of each turn might be an interesting way to show the varied initiative each turn – I think it is better handled in Victory Decision where both players nominate units at the same time and then roll to see who gets to activate.
I don't think you will run into the whacky situations occurring in Flames of War playing with these rules. There would be a lot less tanks on the table. On the other hand, the same could be said if you use a number of other WW2 rule sets, the two I mentioned in my review for instance Victory Decision and Bellum Europa. In the end I don't think it is justified to buy this book for the rules alone, maybe if you have a great interest in the Normandy campaign and intend to use it as a sourcebook - maybe.
The rules are not bad , but very traditional and beside the morale system there are very few new ideas and game mechanics to be found.
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I would say, and that is without having played KGN (but I have read the rules and plenty of Battle Reports), that I would much rather play that than FoW, wich is a game that I have played and didnt enjoy what so ever. Its a matter if you can enjoy abstract rules or not, I dont, and that is the main reason for me not to be playing KGN in the first place and the fact that I prefer 28mm skirmish to anything else really and the reason I couldent stand FoW.
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Anatoli- thanks for the additional perspective you added. I'll have to look at Agis' rules. And actually read KGN; it's been sitting on my shelf for awhile.
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Some of us are here too...
V aka Piers
Its a hard life being a 20mm WW2 gamer... Knowing that your figure and model choice is better than everyone elses and its all available. I think the 15mm and 28mm gamers are just jealous... ;D
Oh and thats called a joke for all those that cant tell. :D
Oh and my review of KGN from a year ago...
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=29520.0
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I'll be interested in reading what you think of I Ain't Been Shot Mum. It sounds to me like a bit of an alternative to FoW and offers, from reading, a more realistic and thematic experience With respect to those who like it, FoW felt too much like WW2 40k to me, and never offered me anything that felt like a real WW2 battle simulation.
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@Gibby, my friend Thomas is determined to buy the IABSM rules and really want to play them after having read internet descriptions. I don't know much about them more than they are supposed to include battlefield chaos and blind markers for unit spotting. As soon as he gets the rules and we have tried them out I'll post a review.