Lead Adventure Forum
Miniatures Adventure => Old West => Topic started by: sf2605 on May 26, 2012, 06:42:59 PM
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Dear all,
What is the alternative of Old West Historical rules ?
I'm not really convince due to the fact, you have more chance to kill the opponent in close combat than by fire.
If you have any suggestion, feel free !
Thx
Stéphane
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The alternative to what? What rules set are you talking about?
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I'd assume Legends of the Old West by Warhammer Historical.
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Blackwater Gulch has a rules set coming out.
Gutshot is a pretty interesting rules set.
Any skirmish rules set can be adapted to it quite easily. We played LOTOW but we add a lot of house rules to it, and modify many things to our liking. There are also some other free old west rules sets that I can't remember off the top of my head.
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The Rules With No Name (http://wargamesfoundry.com/books/wargames_rule_book/any/any/rules_with_no_name_fp018/) is another game that gets decent reviews. i've personally never played it, so i couldn't comment, but like i say, other people seem to like it.
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yes, sorry, I would like to say "Legends of the Old West"
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Well, there are a fair number of actual recorded shootouts at "point blank range" where multiple reloads finally resulted in a casualty to the intended targets.
Gracias,
Glenn
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Six Gun Sound is pretty deadly in the firearms department!
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I'm a pretty active shooter, and I did buy my buddy and I some six guns for a wedding present (his wedding, and I couldn't let him shoot alone could I!?). Having now shot them a bunch, it's very very easy to see how a non-trained shooter would struggle to hit people outside of 5-7 yards. Outside of the few gunfighters and soldiers who went to genuine efforts to train themselves consistently...I'd say joe-average would have a shooting of 6+ almost all the time. :D
My group and I have found that with a few house rules to LOTOW, the real key to a great game: scenarios.
Here is a quick example of what I mean. We had a simply marvelous game doing this one time:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v455/Elbaus/Shootout.jpg)
SCENARIO: Cheating at cards, or a stolen woman has brought two groups of gunslingers to fighting words. Unbeknownst to their buddies, they have chosen to settle the argument in the simplest fashion - a duel. Sadly, no one asked the Town Marshal what he thinks of this.
SET-UP:
1) Each Posse rolls randomly to determine ONE Hero, and TWO Henchmen. These models are placed in the main street, 18" apart.
2) All other Posse members roll randomly to be placed in buildings 1-6. If models are in a two story building, you may put opposing posse members on different floors. Note, the posses are not yet fighting, so these members are simply going about their business, buying goods, whores, or playing cards etc.
3) Choose a suitable model to represent the Town Marshal. Depending on the level of your Posses, pick a suitable Hired Gun to play this role. He starts in the Sheriff/Marshal's office as marked on the map (the buildings are all subject to change depending on your table etc.)
THE WALK:
As the game starts, ONLY the three models in the street are under posse control. Ignore all the other models until the shooting starts. On your turn, you must move your three models D3" (one roll, as they all advance together, side by side) toward the opposing members in the street.
Once you are in range to shoot at the enemy models (this will vary immensely depending on what guns you happen to have) you must then make a Pluck test for each model who is able to shoot. If you PASS the Pluck test, your nerve holds, and you remain holstered. If you fail your Pluck test, you must immediately fire. This is taken outside of the normal turn system.
ONCE THE SHOOTIN' STARTS:
Once one side fails a Pluck test and shoots, immediately draw to begin a normal game turn. At this point, the game goes into normal mode. All of the models on the board become active, and may partake. However, you now add a third "Posse" to the game; the Marshal.
SPURS AND STARS:
The Marshal is controlled by either player (or a third, if you have one standing around). The Marshal rolls just like a Posse for initiative, and takes his turn just like any Posse, but he is solo. He will come out of his office, and immediately begin to hunt/shoot ANY model who has fired shots. He will NOT target models which have not shot yet. He is out to quiet the streets. This means that models which have not yet fired any shots may move past the Marshal with no fear of being gunned down.
HOW IT PLAYED OUT FOR US:
I played this scenario against my brother (his first time playing LOTOW). I lucked out, and rolled two of my henchmen with repeating rifles. As we walked toward each other, both of my henchmen failed their Pluck tests the same turn, and both shot his henchmen dead immediately. It was a great start. However, many of our posse members found themselves face to face with each other in a number of buildings around town. One of my members thought it better to dive out a second story window onto the balcony, rather than face the three posse members charging up the stairs after him.
The Marshal came into the street shootin' and took out at least two posse members before we turned guns on him, and finished it. I managed to eek out a narrow victory when my brother's Posse called it quits after I grabbed one of his characters with a lasso and beat him into submission. At several points, sheepish posse members scuttled past the Marshal in the middle of the street, slipping away without being shot dead. The second they rounded a corner though, they ran off guns blazin'.
We've played a number of different scenarios, and they always turn out 10x more enjoyable than the average Posse gunfight.
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Blackwater Gulch is a good set of skirmisher rules and they are free. The bad part is that they still have a few kinks in them that need to be worked out. I am on their forums and the rules are still in a transition period to be finalized, but the base is real good.
Gutshot is an great game, well thought out and very balanced. I don't know that I would call it a skirmisher game though, because the intent is that each person plays one model. It is very personalized and it skims the line between a miniature game, and a role-playing game quite nicely. It is extremely scenario driven, and without a good story the game can be lackluster, but many great scenarios are free on their website. When I run this game the table get loud and people really enjoy it.
I do not own, nor have played The Rules with No Name, but from talking with the players in my local area, it is the non-beer & pretzels western game. I heard the rules are much more detailed and much more gritty.
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The "Legends..." rules are pretty combat heavy in one of games. This changes once you start to play a campaign because people are much more careful to avoid casualties when they run a warband.
I think the rules for thrown weapons using the strength value of the model don't work very well but that's easy to fix with a houserule.
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The Rules With No Name is a good set of "beer and pretzel" rules. It's fun to play, very random and you need a bucket full of dice to be able to play.
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The Rules With No Name is a good set of "beer and pretzel" rules. It's fun to play, very random and you need a bucket full of dice to be able to play.
Apparently, I was mis-informed. What would people recommend for a non-Beer & pretzels Western game? Is there a system out there that is very detailed with a lot of crunch?
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If you can find it on ebay, check out 'The Old West, Skirmish Rules 1816-1900' (1974). It's written by Steve Curtis, Mike Blake & Ian Colwill, and is an insanely detailed percentile system. Really, really good, but also really, really complicated.
Personally I play LOTOW regularly - gone are the days when I had an entire weekend to spare playing a small-scale gunfight with the above rules, but I do remember those days very fondly.
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Personally I play LOTOW regularly - gone are the days when I had an entire weekend to spare playing a small-scale gunfight with the above rules, but I do remember those days very fondly.
Follow up question then, is LOTOW worth it? I have played some GW stuff (40k/Fantasy), and I have done Gutshot and Blackwater Gulch. Many people seem to think that LOTOW is the Bee's Knees, but some have shown, what appear to be, some glaring faults. It is currently on Ebay, but it is not cheap and since that Warhammer line is gone now, it might become very hard to get. Is it worth it? Can someone sell me on it, or against it?
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I have a set of rules called "Once upon a time in the West" and it's also extremely detailed. I'd guess you can spend a few hours working out a single move and shoot action including rolling a few dice to establish if the smoke of your cigarette reduces your shooting ability if the wind blows it in your eyes. It's pretty fascinating.
Oh, they have a selection 231 pistols and rifles in the rules so your cowboys have quite some choice. 8)
LOTOW is a good set of rules but it's written with campaigns in mind. If you like ti or not is a matter of taste but they work fine.
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I think it is a very pretty book, lots of lovely background stuff (lots of real old west hero's and villains) The book used to be 20 pound new and then 10 at the last sale... The last few times I saw it sold on e-bay it went for around 10 + shipping. In my book it's worth that twice atleast...
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Six Gun Sound (http://www.twohourwargames.com/sixgunsound.html) from 2 Hours Wargame is a very good set of rules.
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Stéphane,
My thinking was the same as yours, until I realized that in hand-to-hand and even weaponed combat the model is knocked OUT OF GAME, not necessarily killed. So, a lousy gunslinger with good fists can possibly walk around the tabletop punching out opponents to win a scenario without hitting a target with a single shot!
I felt better about the rules once I understood eliminating an opponent from the table top doesn't mean ya killed him or her.
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I tried LotOW when it first came out and it put me off Old West gaming! The new ranges of buildings have really caught my imagination again though.
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I tried LotOW when it first came out and it put me off Old West gaming! The new ranges of buildings have really caught my imagination again though.
It's always been hit or miss for me. I LIKE westerns, including Hollywood, Spaghetti Western, or even Weird West, it's just....nothing ever felt right. Six Gun Sound (6GS) by Two Hour Wargames is pretty damned solid, especially for campaign play. I'm really excited about Blackwater Gulch as well. Between the two, I'm pretty confidant that I'll find SOMETHING in the genre to play.
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Personally, I cant really say that I like Legends of the Old West due to various reasons.
The core rules are easy enough to use, the mechanics are simple, but they do suffer from the problem of hand to hand combat being superior to shooting, something I find a bit odd in a western game. However, the books are beutifully made, good looking and have lots of inspirational stuff in them. I also bought all the books to get the various scenarious, and they are good enough. All in all, if you get the core book and the additional suport books, you will have a adequate game with lots of scenarios and some nice reading.
I also have the Rules with no Name, but havent got in to it yet, maybe I never will. I also have Two Hour Wargames system, wich I like a lot. I have been considering getting Gutshot, since it seems to cater for the RP parts a lot, something I find very attractive in a game system. I have also purchased Blackwater Gulsh and are eagerly waiting for its arriwal.
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I'm with greatescape about LOTW, tried them and decidedly did not like them. Too "simple" in important ways - and I greatly prefer simple rules. And too few figures for the style of games I want to play. But I'm out there on the farthest reaches of the "lots of figures" for old west gaming. I'd make a comfortable bet that I have more figures for the period than anyone else. (though mine are in 15 mm)
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The problem for me with LotOW is its campaign system; a few lucky rolls and a single character can become uber-powerful; a few unlucky rolls and a gang can be crippled quite quickly. The character growth rules are the most flawed area of the rules to my mind.
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Since no one else has mentioned it I would recommend Gunfight! from Flagship games. The combat rules are very enjoyable. Shooting is done on D10's with both the shooter and target trying to achieve a target number of 7 with varying degrees of success or failure based on if both sides make their number or just one, or none. The campaign rules are excellent and our group has used them for several other campaigns outside of a Wild West genre. They are a bit tongue in cheek and tend towards the humorous side especially when you get to reading the critical hit and fumble charts. As far as I know they are still available through Scale Creep Miniatures.
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Savage Worlds Skirmish, it's free and can be used for anything including deadkands GRW which was the first source of the engine
Plus you get to use all your dice (except d20)
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I have a set of rules called "Once upon a time in the West" and it's also extremely detailed. I'd guess you can spend a few hours working out a single move and shoot action including rolling a few dice to establish if the smoke of your cigarette reduces your shooting ability if the wind blows it in your eyes. It's pretty fascinating.
Oh, they have a selection 231 pistols and rifles in the rules so your cowboys have quite some choice. 8)
LOTOW is a good set of rules but it's written with campaigns in mind. If you like ti or not is a matter of taste but they work fine.
Mike where can pick up thosr uberrules?